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The Wars of Israel
Posted 5/18/09

azera wrote:


CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


drizza wrote:

Right now I am just interested to see what kind of change Obama will bring to the middle east which I doubt he will do any of it. The main thing as Americans we should all be getting sick and tired of these middle east wars and our country always playing a big role of it. We need to make peace by negotiations rather then Shoot first and asking questions later. This Israel/Palestine conflict is causing hate for our country in the middle east because we are looking like hypocrites and a police state. Many times I have heard America is the only solution for the Israel/Palestine situation but yet we always take the same approach always. Support Israel in all her actions and ignore Palestine. You know I really wouldn't mind if we had a Non Pro Pal or Non Pro Israel approach just something neutral to satisfy both. No weapons and money given the Palestine or Israel unless it is to rebuild their structure that our weapons destroyed. I mean we tried the same one sided support for 60 years yet this bloodshed has not stopped. Crippling economy but yet full speed ahead with giving Israel more aid.

This support is hurting our first amendment as well. Why is it that we can freely criticize any country in the world except Israel? Why are we even about to criminalize people for doing so? Abe Foxman the fat ass leader of ADL all he does is sit on his fat ass and look for peoples career to destroy. Wow what amazing job is that to act like a fucking cry baby when someone says anything about Israel and ruin his life. Excuse Abe but Jews aren't the only fucking people who has suffered in this world. Therefore why do you feel the need to be exempt from everything? Why is it that we can freely criticize every religion but yours? We all know the holocaust was true and the huge amount of proof that supports it so why do you feel the need to beat up looneys about it so badly? If ADL and all these other Zionist organizations bent on just covering up any type of criticism and support for Israel and Jews then the same standard for any other religion otherwise it just looks like bullshit. I mean why is this the only ideology that goes EXTRA I mean EXTRA rather it be the net or anywhere else to just shut everyone up about Israel and force people to support them or you look like some kind of racist? Nobody else is doing this but these people this is why I can never side with them.

You cant defeat hate nobody can. Your just going to have to deal with it thats a part of life. These people trying to make a world Anti-Semite please lets get real. You think Israels as of today is making anything better especially in the muslim world? Someone can say all the most ignorant bullshit about my religion and I will see him as a dumb ass but I will be damned if I let my country lock him up for expressing his opinions. People are already being locked up for anti-semantics in other countries and America is heading this why. My question is since when did these people become so damn privilege that you aren't allowed to say anything bad about them? Arent we all equal under God? Isn't no human above the law? Sorry for my ranting.


Because you all have the wrong the religion lol or says most Americans and i disagree with that 100%, my mom is such a fucking hypocritical bitch all the time telling me to love my fellow man but it's okay to make fun of Muslims because of their religion and say they will go to hell and so on. It just pisses me off to the point that I want to slap her but yeah i can't do that i do feel sorry for the Muslim population but well there is nothing I can do to change anything, I really wish I could though.


omg did u just criticize hardly to ur mom?


I have my personal reasons for that, I really do.
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Posted 5/19/09 , edited 5/19/09

drizza wrote:
Yes I have seen Israel get out but I dont think I have seen attacks on the religion thus far. I also agree with you and I stated it on previous threads that there are some people who attack jews and blame jews for all their problems and I see those people as being ignorant. You cant blame a miniority and think that they speak for the majority. This is not from muslims only trust me many christians talk about this as well. I heard the Illumanti and freemason conspiracy as well. I also heard the flouride in toothpaste to make you suspectible to believing everything lol. Many of those I dismiss thats taking it too the extreme.


Yes, there are people who do that and no it’s not entirely a Muslim tradition. Actually, I can historically take you back and show you that anti-Semitism originated with the early Roman Christian Church and that it was only later that it infested Islamic communities. As a matter of a fact, Hitler never created a single law to discriminate against the Jews-he simply revived the laws of the early Roman Catholic church.

Never the less the prejudice against Jews, as an ethnic group and a religion, cannot be denied as abnormally prevalent within the ummah. Much of the ummah remains ignorant of Hamas’ status as a terrorist organization, even praising them for their targeting of civilians, school buses, and public transportation stations throughout Israel as well as in Palestine where it concerns Fatah.

There’s actually a fatwa preventing children from getting vaccinated for polio because it’s a Jewish conspiracy apparently, as is Tom and Jerry, Harry Potter, and Pokémon. These paranoid, racist, and flatly weird theories are so prevalent that they were actually investigated and aired on MEMRI TV, which of course insisted they were completely true. MEMRI in the Middle Easter Media Research Institute dedicated particular to Arab-Jewish conflict, Islamic scriptures, and science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGsHUfl9xEE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40VFcJTIduw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBOZyx68QQw
http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1522.htm

Does this reflect the whole of the Islamic community? No, because not all Muslims reside within the middle east or acknowledge the Islamic authorities in the middle east. I’ve been to a mosque and aside from the awkwardness of having no idea what to do and mispronouncing As-Salāmu `Aleykum the whole night, and wondering why I can’t just say, “peace be upon you,” it was a pleasant experience. (Nifty thing I didn’t know, the idea of the shoulder angel comes from Islam. You actually greet your shoulder angel after bowing.)

American Muslims, at least in my experience, are like everyone else. They have no real cultural ethos, and are only vaguely united by their Islamic heritage. Few of them had more knowledge of the Qur’an then I do of the bible, and few of them were hyper religious. They were modern, moderate, and just as imperfect as your every day Christian.

This being said, the Islamic authorities in the middle east have made their suspicion and distaste not only for Israel as the nation but for the Jews as an ethnic group and a religious group as well. I think this is very strange. Under the Jordanian rule Jewish holy sites were systematically desecrated and the Jews were denied access to the wailing wall and were forbade from building synagogues. Under Israeli and Jewish rule all holy sites including the Mosque Al-Aska (which is built on the ruins of Judaism holiest sites, the Temple of Jerusalem)are open to the general public and there are many mosques throughout Jerusalem and the entire nation of Israel.

Moreover, after launching an attack into Israel that inadvertently killed Muslim Arab-Israelis Hamas was largely condemned for murder and issued public apologies. Yet, none of the of the mosques have called Hamas out for killing Jewish children who had nothing to do with anything, at least not publically.



As far as zionism being evil in the USA media not too sure because now it is considered anti-semetic to criticize zionism here I need to find the source of that and I will post it.


Read: A History of Modern Israel or What do Zionists Believe by the English author Colin Shindler. Or, go back and look at the literature.

http://www.amazon.com/History-Modern-Israel-Colin-Shindler/dp/0521615380
http://www.amazon.com/What-Do-Zionists-Believe-We/dp/186207836X
As far as the 80 virgins not all Hadiths are real as I been told to take some as a grain of salt.

The Hadith are not completely authenticated, but supposedly the Qur’an is the one hundred percent unflawed and literal word of God. They are also mentioned in the Qur'an. I happen to know this because the concept has fascinated me. (Like much of Islamic theology. The Islamic Angels totally pwn the Christian angels, and the Jynn are an interesting concept themselves.) Take a look for yourself:

44:51-55, "Verily! The righteous will be in Paradise. Among Gardens and Springs; Dressed in fine silk and also in thick silk, facing each other, and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes"

52: 17-20: "Verily, for those who fear Allah there will be Gardens in Paradise, filled with Delight. Enjoying in that which their Lord has bestowed on them, and the fact that their Lord saved them from the torment of the blazing Fire. The Lord will say: ‘Eat and drink with happiness because of what you used to do’. They will recline with ease on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris with wide lovely eyes."


Also see: 37:40-4, 55:54-59, 55:70-77, 56:37-40, 78:31-34.

The Hadith further elaborates that there are 72-not eighty-and that they are only there for mujihadists and martyrs.
(Not done yet)


Like I said with that particular one the same with Jihad you can ask any muslim around the world or a local mosque if it is Islam to blow oneself up and they are promised 80 virgins. I can almost gaurentee you they all will say no. I still think this statement is a smokescreen to cover up the real reason why suicide bombing exist in palestine which is grief. When your family has died in front of you, home bulldozed, witnessing bodies ripped apart, with no weapons and nothing to live for they strap bombs and take revenge. Some say why Israel doesnt suicide bomb well lol why would they? They have weapons that can kill 200 people in less then 5 minutes. But our mainstream media still wants to try to make this into some kind of religious war be it muslims hating jews and vice versa. I have read a lot about zionism and I will talk about it tomorrow today I am just tired as hell. As stated there are billions of muslims around the world so how is it that we see some crazed fanatics speak for the majority? If I had this mentality I would think all jews are evil judging by the crazed Israeli government.


That’s is something I’ve considered for a very long time, not just concerning this issue either, but the war in Iraq as well. We call these people terrorists, and they are. They use psychological warfare, essentially, or terror tactics to spread fear….but, I mean, a what exactly are the –supposed- to do? They can’t really compete on the other fields, so that’s all they have left. This being said, Hamas doesn’t need to use suicide bombings either. It chooses to do so, and the reason is quite clear. You can go and watch some of the statements made by the martyrs prior to their suicide bombing, Hamas and similar Islamic terrorist organizations often air them on TV or radio. This isn’t a conspiracy, these people really believe that they’ll be rewarded by Allah-by The One True God-for killing innocent people just because they’re Jewish.

Does Islam teach this? No, not by any means. But, the Shiites believe that the Imam’s have divine authority to their words just like the Qur’an so if they so go boom…BOOM.



I dont hate Israeli people I just hate the government as much as you would hate Hamas government.


Then you should also hate the American government, the British government (especially the British government,) and many other governments because they all actively do the same exact things that Israel does.




Hamas uses terror we cant deny that and as much as I dont agree with there methods I know why. Because of occupation, economic warfare, and settlement building. The media is virtually silent on these issues and this is killing the Palestinian people. These cease fires arent doing a damn thing if we let Israel continue this. Israel uses organized terror.


According to Hamas, they use terror and attempt Genocide because it's part of the Islamic commandment-and I can prove that's their reasoning. It's bull, but they don't think it is. Still, you have a point, that's their only method of warfare. You might note, they got their weapons and funding from Israel originally. They began as a force to provide humanitarian aid and security and were supported by Israel until they turned these weapons on Fatah, and anybody who openly expressed a political or religious view that disagreed with theirs. That meant, Muslims in Palestine who say that genocide against the Jews is not true Islam can be arrested or killed.


I want the US to be more neutral rather then taking a pro approach to anyside because funding Hamas with weapons and they may just do to Israel with Israel is doing to them currently. We just need more brave politicians to speak out and not fear these Zionist organizations out to call you an anti-semite if you speak about them.


I want the UN and US and all western powers to butt out and just let them find a solution, because we've only made things worse every single time we get involved. Let the war end, we're the ones dragging it on.

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Posted 5/19/09 , edited 5/19/09

As far as zionism being evil in the USA media not too sure because now it is considered anti-semetic to criticize zionism here I need to find the source of that and I will post it.


Read: A History of Modern Israel or What do Zionists Believe by the English author Colin Shindler. Or, go back and look at the literature.

http://www.amazon.com/History-Modern-Israel-Colin-Shindler/dp/0521615380
http://www.amazon.com/What-Do-Zionists-Believe-We/dp/186207836X

The first form of Zionism actually began as early as 1621 and was not a Jewish movement but rather a Protestant Christian movement. The idea was that the Jews, wandering and lost, were a burden to nations and needed to find their own home. Remember, the founded of Protestantism-Martin Luther-also authored “Concerning the Jews and their lies,” and the attitude of protestant Christians of that time can be compared to the attitude of Muslims towards Jews in this time.

Sir Henry Finch in that very year published his Zionist work, “The World’s Great Restoration or Calling of the Jews.” His solution of moving the Jews to their own sovereign nation was endorsed by the French Napoleon and President John Adams.

Zionism did not begin to catch on with the Jews until the late nineteenth early twentieth century. They began to realize that while they considered themselves fully fledged members of their respective nations-that while they considered themselves Germans, Frenchmen, Russians, Englishmen-their countrymen didn’t see them in that light. Soon, the Jews began to feel the heat and a sense of being outcasts.

The result was that, while they’d up until then largely forgotten their Jewish heritage and adopted their national cultures, they began to identify themselves not as members of their nation but as member of the international Jewish community. This, however, gave them a sense of being disperse and so the need for a Jewish state with which to share their culture, heritage, religion, and heredity became quite clear.

They discussed such sentiments in books such as Autoemancipation by Leon Pinsker.

What you may not know is that Zionism did not call for a Jewish homeland in Palestine. It simply called for a sovereign nation of Jews. The idea was “a land without people for a people without land,” and the Jews had been educated by non-Jewish Zionist supporters to believe that Palestine was a land without people.

There’s actually an old book you can read, “States for the Jews: Uganda, Birobidzhan and 34 other Plans.” You see, the Zionists considered many possible locations for the Jewish state and many methods for getting the Jews to go. Palestine simply took the list because they were under the false impression that the Arabs had only begun to migrate there after the Jews in the late eighteen hundreds.

In reality the Arabs had been squatting on the territory since the Roman’s conquered it and renamed it Palestine in the first century CE. In the 1930s there was talk of settling the Jews in Kimberly, Australia. The main ideas of Zionism are not to conquer anything.

Instead the whole concept is to unite and fight to defend Jewish life, culture, and the right to a exist as a people/nation. It replaced religious unities and universalism with secular nationalism. It’s biggest realization came in 1948, but that was not by the decree of some Zionist comity. That was a UN ruling, which the Secretary General of the Arab league acknowledged as logical and rational before launching his attack to eradicate the Jews.

Naturally the Zionists were happy, but it wasn’t their doing; moreover, while the concept of Zionism was captured by extremists and manipulated to fit their agenda in that time and in the present the same can be said of Jihad and the entire Islamic tradition as well as Christianity, Sikhism, Judaism, Hinduism, and-get this-Buddhism.

Zionists simply believe in the preservation of Jewish traditions and culture. The uniting of the Jewish community as a sovereign state to prevent diasporas, and the striving to create a perfect society free of racism, European flaws, and in accordance with the mitzvah. So, what exactly is wrong with that? Has Zionism been misused-yes, it has. Is the Zionist ideology evil, does it coincide with the image portrayed on western media which demonizes and criticizes it? No, it’s certainly not.
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Posted 5/19/09 , edited 5/19/09


Man I hate it when I type something and when I post it my net messes up and now I have to remember what I typed.

Anyways I can understand where hate for Jews come from and it is because of this situation. The way these people who been through a holocaust is now putting a country in a concentration camp. They are the ones ethinically cleansing palestinians it is not the other way around. When people observe this behavior they develop hate for them. I have already laid how the devastation of Israel, the uplifting of Palestinians from their homes, the bulldozing, bombing buildings such as schools, hospitals, etc. Settlement building man the list goes too far on. These people broke the most UN resolutions around the world and they dont get punished for it at all. So yes there will be some igorantly stereotypes of Jews as long as they see this behavior continue. This only furthers anti-semitism. This is a reason why I dont like zionism as well. It is a racist ideology formed to create a Jewish only state in Palestinian lands. They have succeed this in the most barbaric way and they are still expanding their terrority. They are discriminitive against non - Jews and in the Gaza they have railroads built saying Jews only. You say zionism hasnt called out for a jewish homeland in Palestine but from what I read this is exactly where Theodore Hertzl wanted it. I already know much of the history you spoke of on zionism. The way Theodore Hertzl describes how anti-semities will be their best friends was to show that he needs more of them to provide the state of Israel. With the holocaust that was the icing on the cake and if he was still alive he would be proud because that event was the straw that formed Israel and now another bloodshed which is lasting 60 years. (I will write more on this subject to make clear of Zionism which I studied because what I typed was real vague).

In reality many of the conspiracies I read about is not from muslim websites or from arabs. Many are from America christians or Europeans. I heard about the illuminati from them, free masons, the protocalls of zion, their controll of the media, etc. All these came from non muslim sources. So we cant say most of the anti-semtism is steaming from arabs and muslims alone I think many people are fed of with our pro-Israel approach and nobody able to stand up and criticize them. Thus the conspiracies of how powerfull jews are forms and unless there is something to challenge this theory it will not go away.

Now speaking of Holy sites unsurprisingly the mosque Al-Aqsa was attack. This happened in 1969 Michael Dennis Rohan tried to burn down the mosque stating he was trying to speed up the second coming of Jesus. The second attack was in 1980 was by Ben Shoshan and Yehuda Etzion members of Gush Emunim Underground an Israel political movement. This organization is now no more but yes under Israel rule the Holy sites have been attacked.

As for criticism in our media on Zionism I have yet to see it. Now to your quotes I still dont see how any of those quotes even come remotely close to talking about killing oneself and being rewarded virgins. I have read it but i havent read the chapter. The chapter is called smoke and I know if I read it all I can put it into context if I cant I will ask my father to as he is very good at doing so. When it comes to the Quran I tell people to take it like the Patrick Henry quote. Patrick said, "Give me liberty or give me death". Now If I take away the "give me liberty" part and only quote him when he says "give me death". I just twisted the whole meaning of it and made him sound like he is suicidal or he is a killer. This is the same thing being done to the Quran you take quotes out of context and say. "see this is what it says in the Quran and thats why muslims act this way." Ignoring the rest of the pieces inside the book. I am not accusing you of this but I have seen this tactic being done by others. I am just like you when it comes to Christianity I dont know my religion inside and out I am still learning. I believe if quotes like this was soo obvious and soo destructive this religion wouldnt be as big as it is now.

Regarding the Hadiths as I stated there are many fake Hadiths floating around and the muslim community already knows of it. Hell just google fake Hadith and that 72 virgin myth comes up. The reason why I keep changing the number is because lol everytime I hear it in our media it is a different number. I have never been taught this Hadith untill I seen it on our Television in America. So this is new to me and many other muslims.

I believe if Hamas has had an advance army such as Israel they woudldnt use suicide bombing. Some of these suicide bombing come from angered Palestinians living in their current situation. I mean what the hell does Israel expect? Do they believe there will be no retaliation if people continue to live like this? Surely only a fool would think that.

On the hating the US government yes I hate our new government. I love this country but the bald eagle has landed and cannot get back up. We have become the policemen of the world with 100 odd some bases around the world. Just what in the hell is our troops still doing in Germany? I have been a heavy critic on the US on many of these USA threads. My approach is like this and has always been I am with my country when they are right and I oppose them if they are wrong. If every American had this approach we would be living in a better country then it is now. Right now it is the, "My country right or wrong" mentality.

If I called you some ignorant fox news bastard I apologize I am trying to work on that. It is just when you deal with this issue as I stated you always got to attack the hate first because many igorant people jump on acting like extremists which changes the whole topic of a thread. I am really trying hard to get my father on here because he knows the topic and the religion better then me. He debates it a lot on his free time.
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Posted 5/19/09
I just seen your second post on Zionism I will look at your resources and read on it.
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Posted 8/17/09
Something interesting I’ve recently uncovered is that while western scholars generally accept that the Yom Kippur War ended in a pyrrhic victory for Israel, the Arab/Muslim world is under the impression that the Egyptians won. It’s really quite fascinating to see how two different sides of an issue have completely varying perspectives on the same events.

The Egyptians argue that while they were beaten out of the Sinai (their primary objective was to capture the Sinai,) they did capture the Suez Canal. This boosted Arab moral which intimidated Israel into trading Sinai in exchange for peace and acknowledgement from Egypt.

The Israeli’s argue that while they did discover a newfound respect for the Egyptian army they could’ve very easily marched on Cairo and Damascus had they chosen to do so. They refrained from this only because the United Nations encouraged them to do so and because their ultimate goal was security. Now that they’d shown the Egyptians that they could not take the Suez Canal by force, Egypt had no choice but to try to achieve it through the guidelines put in place by UN resolution 242. (As I’m sure most of you know by now, this is commonly referred to as the “Land for Peace,” resolution.)

Seems to me like the truth is likely to be somewhere in between.
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