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Just the Science: When does human life begin?
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27 / M / In your room stea...
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Posted 7/12/09

Ahaz wrote:

I’m afraid you’d be mistaken. Planned Parenthood uses the term, “potential human life,” which is not just misleading. It’s flat out incorrect. As we’ve already pointed out before, even in the earliest stages it is human life. I’m honestly surprised some pro-life lawyer hasn’t caught this and taken it straight to the Supreme Court. Maybe I’ll do this one day and make myself famous.

Faye Wattleton, the longest reigning president of Plan Parenthood in the organization’s history, actually argued that she shouldn’t have to inform people because they already know. This--as you and I have already agreed--is false. Most people do not consider a fetus to be a living human being because they’re ignorant. During an interview with Ms. Magazine Faye said: “I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing.”

Obviously, however, she’s wrong. Just reading the transcript of Roe v. Wade you’ll see that Blackmun’s number one argument is that a fetus is not human until live birth. This is the cornerstone of every argument you’ll run into on the internet or in the streets. They honestly believe that a fetus is not human because they’ve been educated to accept this falsehood by organizations such as Planned Parenthood which spends millions of dollars to advertise their abortions so they can make hundreds of millions. In the 2000 elections they gave 460,000 US dollars to pro-choice candidates. They spent an additional 7-10 million attacking George Bush’s pro-life agenda. In two weeks alone they spent 1.5 million supporting pro-choice vice presidential candidate Al Gore.

http://www.lifenews.com/nat182.html

It’s the exact same thing that you see with global warming. Man made global warming is a fact, but because oil companies pay ‘scientists,’ to release ‘studies,’ suggesting otherwise people are ignorant. They truly believe that global warming is not caused in part by humans. Just, you know, ever other animal.


Well even a single cell is alive, so a human that consisted of 1 or more cells is still alive. Since bacteria and other single celled beings are alive, so why would a unborn multicellular animal such as a human not be alive ? Doesn't make sense, of course a unborn animal is alive.



The fetus is harmed, obviously. You argue that the fetus is in a lose-lose situation, but I contradict. There are happy alternatives like adoption. The average waiting list to adopt a new born child is 2 years long. There is no shortage of loving parents wanting to adopt a new born child. The chances of a newborn baby put up for adoption being placed in the care of qualified loving parents is actually higher than that a child simply being raised by his biological parents.

So, if we outlaw abortion and instead encourage adoption the child would in fact win; moreover, having parents who cannot care for you does not necessarily mean you’ll take a loss. Look at Barrack Obama. A black child born to a poverty stricken single mother grew up to be the first African American president in history.

The father is also harmed because abortion trespasses on his right to reproduce and his right to protect his offspring. In addition, many fathers are actually required and made to pay for half of the abortion.


I agree with all of that, when I said lose-lose situation I was referring to a fetus who is going to be aborted.



The same can be said of anything from theft, to murder, to rape. All of these things are illegal but still happen.


Exactly, so making abortion illegal, would result in less of them, but it wouldn't get rid of all of them.

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Posted 7/12/09

Allhailodin Well even a single cell is alive, so a human that consisted of 1 or more cells is still alive. Since bacteria and other single celled beings are alive, so why would a unborn multicellular animal such as a human not be alive ? Doesn't make sense, of course a unborn animal is alive.


So then by calling it ‘potential human life,’ instead of ‘human life,’ they’re misinforming women who attain abortions. This is a trespass on the woman’s rights as an American citizen, and debatably the fetus’s rights as a human.So, abortion providers are in fact actively trespassing on the rights of women. I think that if abortion really was just another medical procedure then the providers of the operation wouldn’t be lying about it to their patients. But, they are, Planned Parenthood most especially. That’s because if they admit the truth then it becomes quite clear that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape. Because, the law protects humans. Fetuses are scientifically human. Planned Parenthood however trespasses on the rights of women to avoid doing this so they can continue making money under the pretense of caring about the women.


I agree with all of that, when I said lose-lose situation I was referring to a fetus who is going to be aborted.


Well, if the fetus is aborted it loses. If it is put up for adoption it wins. So, it's not a lose-lose situation because there is a winning option.




Exactly, so making abortion illegal, would result in less of them, but it wouldn't get rid of all of them.


Yes, but even Obama, Hillary, and the democrats agree we need to cut back on how many abortions are being attained. Since making it illegal would achieve that exact thing it’s the best line of action. We all want to reduce abortion. So, let's reduce it. Make abortion illegal.
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Posted 7/12/09

Ahaz wrote:

So then by calling it ‘potential human life,’ instead of ‘human life,’ they’re misinforming women who attain abortions. This is a trespass on the woman’s rights as an American citizen, and debatably the fetus’s rights as a human.So, abortion providers are in fact actively trespassing on the rights of women. I think that if abortion really was just another medical procedure then the providers of the operation wouldn’t be lying about it to their patients. But, they are, Planned Parenthood most especially. That’s because if they admit the truth then it becomes quite clear that abortion should be illegal except in cases of rape. Because, the law protects humans. Fetuses are scientifically human. Planned Parenthood however trespasses on the rights of women to avoid doing this so they can continue making money under the pretense of caring about the women.


Yeap, if a single cell is alive, so is an unborn fetus.


Well, if the fetus is aborted it loses. If it is put up for adoption it wins. So, it's not a lose-lose situation because there is a winning option.


Yeap, Although I seem to remember saying that if a fetus is aborted its a lose lose situation, although maybe I didn't, Hmm, perplexing.



Yes, but even Obama, Hillary, and the democrats agree we need to cut back on how many abortions are being attained. Since making it illegal would achieve that exact thing it’s the best line of action. We all want to reduce abortion. So, let's reduce it. Make abortion illegal.


I suppose, but in that situation, women who've gotten raped can't get them. Child birthing is expensive, hospital bills, doctors, and so on. I think a rape victim would rather pay less for an abortion then fork over 3+ grand for a hospital bill. But that's just what common sense dictates, most people don't have common sense these days, so who knows.
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31 / F / Somewhere you're not
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Posted 7/12/09

Allhailodin
I suppose, but in that situation, women who've gotten raped can't get them. Child birthing is expensive, hospital bills, doctors, and so on. I think a rape victim would rather pay less for an abortion then fork over 3+ grand for a hospital bill. But that's just what common sense dictates, most people don't have common sense these days, so who knows.


Less than 1% of abortions are attained in response to rape. Hospitals offer morning after pills to rape victims for a fraction of the price of an abortion. Taken within 72 hours of the rape these prevent pregnancy. For those few who miss their chance…I think the state should pay to get them an abortion.
Posted 7/12/09

Ahaz wrote:


CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:

Yeah, but at that point it's just a small mass of sells, with the same value as a rock or a leaf. Its not a capable human being until it can survive on its own without the mother, if it can't survive without the mother, then it's not a capable human being, and has no worth, except as a source of stem cells. Besides it's the woman's body, its her choice.


Ha ha ha what about people that need government support to live what does that make them?? As far as I am concerned kill off everyone that can't live on there own and the homeless as well to make a better world.


Well, if being incapable makes you worthless then does that mean that if I traveled to the rain forest I would suddenly cease being a person? I mean, I certainly would not be capable of much anything in the rain forest. I’d have to rely on others to keep me alive. I’d be a leech on my group. What about the tribal people? Are they not human because they must rely on the tribe or order to survive?

And, if it’s a matter of capability to survive then does that mean that American fetuses are worth more than Mexican fetuses? I mean, what if a child is born premature. In America we have machines and technology to keep them alive so they’re capable of surviving outside of the mother’s womb much earlier than they are in third world countries.


i was just mad when i typed that, had really bad day and wanted to realse some stress on line sorry if i offended you
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31 / F / Somewhere you're not
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Posted 7/12/09

CecilTheDarkKnight_234
i was just mad when i typed that, had really bad day and wanted to realse some stress on line sorry if i offended you


Totally understandable, I suppose. But I actually thought you were being sarcastic and was trying to agree with you. XD
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27 / F / Pittsburgh
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Posted 7/13/09
I agree that whenever the sperm fertilizes the egg and a new genetic code appears, that is the beginning of human life.
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25 / M / Cavite, Philippines
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Posted 7/13/09
Yes life begins since conception. Regarding abortion, i think parents, single or both, should always have an option.
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28 / M / Colorado, USA
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Posted 7/15/09
Some of the information you present throws me off as to just what we're answering. But I've read enough to know what should be said.

Life is too broad of a term to use alone. Life in itself is a debate that is much too individualized. It can be all of existence or it can be all things that are organic. Life would best be presented as a concept of something that grows, experiences, struggles, pursues, and dies.

The next matter seems to be about defining a human. Well, when trying to define a human, it is to me more of an abstract concept and a state of being. Thus I define a human on the basis of the being's intelligence. Thus my preferred definition of a human being puts labelling a child as human at a delay after years of existing. My definition of human is generally around the same time that a person starts to have memories.

Thus, I really do not give much significance to the growth occurring within a womb.

However most people arguing against abortion stick with life and murder as the focal point of the issue about abortion. This is not all abortion is about.

Abortion is usually done because the parent(s) feel that things will go wrong if a child is born into their current environment. Perhaps the lives of the parents will be harmed, by the financial burden the child will require. Perhaps they anticipate that they will not provide fully for the child, thus giving the child a very hard and painful life. There are many bad and worst case scenarios that might happen with an untimely child birth, often negatively affecting multiple lives.

In the womb, there are yet to be any experiences, memories, knowledge, or passions that makes a human being a human. If later on those experiences are only going to be met with tragedy, it would be best to evade the troubles when anticipated.

Adoption centers should not be considered an easy alternative. Imagine if 100% of the current abortion rate went to adoption centers. I'm sure life there would become hell, if it isn't already. I really doubt that adoption centers are currently the most pleasant place to start your life. And intelligent contraception is not a part of the argument on abortion. There is no doubt that people being smart would solve these problems. But obviously not all humans are smart.
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Posted 7/17/09
who knows? they're all THEORIES..
nothing has passed yet for being a LAW
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