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Fanfur the Mouse, Hamas, and Palestinian Child Abuse?
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Posted 6/6/09

Yei wrote:

Ad hominem..... alright....

You see, I was just curious because I still don't got a clear answer as to why Israel is such a huge issue in US politics and why so many Americans are interested in it. I'll just assume it's government and religious connections.

Anyways, assuming everything you've said is credible info, my thoughts basically are: is this really a surprise? lol so what? This type of behavior or mentality is not really that shocking. People in bad situations can't be expected to all be like Gandhi, right? But you seem to have those sorts of expectations for Palestinians, I think you're overestimating them. They're not going to all be perfect when they're under the conditions they're in.

Jews during and after the Holocaust hated all Germans. Alot told their kids all Germans were all evil monsters and people got in trouble for saying something positive about Germans. But that's to be expected if you understand how people are. Now add in that Muslim/Arab culture is already somewhat antisemitic, what else could you really expect?? In fact it would be a shock if they weren't doing this. And they will continue to have this mentality for as long as they are oppressed by Israel, it's very simple.

I hope Israel decides to stop treating Palestinians so badly and starts considering solutions to this conflict instead of just occasionally massacring Palestinian children and hoping that will put them in their place. Otherwise it will only get worse.

Both sides obviously have to change but I look at Palestinians and see a group of people who have been screwed over in 1948, 1967 and literally lost everything, they've have been abused. massacred and just brutally oppressed for decades. And they are still an oppressed and imprisoned people. So I don't expect them to take the Gandhi approach to this situation. I think it should be expected that they fire rockets and do other crazy things because of what Israel has done to them. Put people in crazy situations and they'll do crazy things, this is normal human behavior. You expect far too much from them, it's like you're not realizing they're people.

And more importantly, who has the real power to change things? Let's see, Palestinians are a poor, desperate and imprisoned group of people with little to no support from anywhere. Israel is a well-developed, rich and powerful country with infinite support from the US, and not imprisoned. And you expect Palestinians to take the first initiative in solving this? Israel is supposed to be the responsible and rational side, and yet they've managed to become greater terrorists than Palestinians could ever be.

Yep, that's what I think. And honestly, I'm really getting tired of this topic.


Okay, pretty predictable. I will say that I think the Arabs got a completely fair deal in 1948. The areas with a Jewish majority were given to the Jews and the areas with Arab majorities were given to the Arabs. Over 80% of the British mandate was given to the Arabs. The Arab League admitted that the plan was fair and logical but refused to accept it never the less.

Also, as far as Palestine having no support that’s not at all true. Japan, for example, puts a priority on its relationship with Palestine over its relationship with Israel because a bad relation with Palestine is a bad relationship with the Arab league. Palestine has the full support of every single Muslim nation. America does not provide Israel with limitless support, that’s a lie. America gives less to Israel than it does to most European countries. On the flip side, America gives more money to Palestine than any other nation-well over a billion dollars a year as you can see in my original post; moreover, Russia has condemned Israel and expresses support of Palestine as well as the Arab League.

Palestine has plenty of support and the only reason the area is in its condition is because the insistence of Arab nations to create war. Without that Palestine would be a fully developed nation just like Israel and we’d be likely very close to peace throughout the Middle East. Also, Israel does not blockade all of Palestine but rather Gaza-and in 1967 Gaza was not taken from the Palestinians it was taken from Egypt. Westbank, similarly, did not belong to the Palestinians-though it should have-when Israel captured it.
Yei
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

Okay, pretty predictable. I will say that I think the Arabs got a completely fair deal in 1948. The areas with a Jewish majority were given to the Jews and the areas with Arab majorities were given to the Arabs. Over 80% of the British mandate was given to the Arabs. The Arab League admitted that the plan was fair and logical but refused to accept it never the less.

Also, as far as Palestine having no support that’s not at all true. Japan, for example, puts a priority on its relationship with Palestine over its relationship with Israel because a bad relation with Palestine is a bad relationship with the Arab league. Palestine has the full support of every single Muslim nation. America does not provide Israel with limitless support, that’s a lie. America gives less to Israel than it does to most European countries. On the flip side, America gives more money to Palestine than any other nation-well over a billion dollars a year as you can see in my original post; moreover, Russia has condemned Israel and expresses support of Palestine as well as the Arab League.

Palestine has plenty of support and the only reason the area is in its condition is because the insistence of Arab nations to create war. Without that Palestine would be a fully developed nation just like Israel and we’d be likely very close to peace throughout the Middle East. Also, Israel does not blockade all of Palestine but rather Gaza-and in 1967 Gaza was not taken from the Palestinians it was taken from Egypt. Westbank, similarly, did not belong to the Palestinians-though it should have-when Israel captured it.


Well getting ethnically cleansed and one million people losing everything wasn't a really fair deal. I think the Arab and Palestinian mentality was "I don't understand why we should have to give up our country/land to you????" And the Arab League has always been useless and corrupt anyways.

Every single Muslim nation supports Palestine? By support, you mean they say they support it and condemn Israel's actions? Well that's very nice, but when they do little to nothing to aid Palestinians, they're words really don't mean anything. And wow, I knew Japan was awesome, but I didn't know it was that awesome. I never knew that they've been helping with the economy and have always been there to give emergency aide when Israel goes on it's killing sprees. America gives more money to European countries and Palestine than it does to Israel?



Remember, that's in millions of dollars. Now how much do they give Europeans and Palestine on a regular basis?

The ties between the US and Israel are so strong, I would say it's limitless support. And the point is, Palestinians are, and always have been, in much worse conditions than Israel. And Israel doesn't seem to realize it makes things worse when it massacres a couple hundred children, or when it's IDF soldiers snipe some more kids throwing rocks. If Israel and the US really wanted to, they could have solved this a long time ago, or at least not make it so much worse, but that's not within their interests. Palestine was never going to become a fully developed nation no matter what, that wasn't part of the plan. The truth is, the people with the real control of this situation just don't care about the Palestinians. I guess they figured they would all escape to other countries and be out of their way in 1948.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

Yei wrote: Well getting ethnically cleansed and one million people losing everything wasn't a really fair deal.


I’m sorry; you must not have gotten the notice. This is a no spin zone. No spinning allowed. That’s not what I was talking about and you know it. I was referencing the UN resolution to create separate Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. I think, as the AL acknowledged, that the UN’s plan was fair and logical. They gave regions where most of the land was owned and populated by Jewish people to the Jews and did the same with the Arabs. That wound up giving the Jews about .1% of the Middle East and 20% of the British Mandate. The Arabs got 80% of the British Mandate and 99.9% of the Middle East.

The ethnic cleansing would’ve been avoided if the Arab League had not launched a genocidal campaign against the Jews. I cannot and will not deny or justify the ethnic cleansing. Israel was wrong, and the innocent Arabs did not deserve that. Still, I have no more pity for the Arab combatants killed than I do for the Christians who were slaughtered by Muslim defenders when they invaded Islamic territory. I have no more pity for the Arab League than I do for Nazi Germany and in the end we’re getting sidetracked because that’s NOT what I was describing as fair.

But: “For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.


I think the Arab and Palestinian mentality was "I don't understand why we should have to give up our country/land to you????"


That’s probably true, and from their perspective I don’t think that they are at all evil people. However, on the same note you must acknowledge that the Jews who migrated into the region were educated to believe it was a ‘land without people for a people without land.’ From their perspective they were not evil people. Both perspectives were wrong. By 1948 most of the territory that was allotted out to become Israel was already Jewish property. The Jews were buying land at a startling rate, laying down roots and building thriving civilizations. So, the Arabs weren’t really losing much land with the UN resolution because it’d already been bought from the Arabs by the Jews like Pennsylvania from the Native Americans. As it stood, the land had never belonged to them, and although they’d been educated to believe it did, it didn’t.

They were not an indigenous people and did not even identify themselves as Palestinians until twenty years later. There was no cultural ethos whatsoever, and the regional brogue was not even universal amongst their numbers. In fact at that point the British, Jews, and Arabs alike in the area were ALL called Palestinians-and the Arabs couldn't even pronounce it.


Every single Muslim nation supports Palestine? By support, you mean they say they support it and condemn Israel's actions? Well that's very nice, but when they do little to nothing to aid Palestinians, they're words really don't mean anything. And wow, I knew Japan was awesome, but I didn't know it was that awesome. I never knew that they've been helping with the economy and have always been there to give emergency aide when Israel goes on it's killing sprees. America gives more money to European countries and Palestine than it does to Israel?


They united fairly well in 1948 and again in 1967. Even if they were not directly involved they sent indirect support as illustrated in this pre-Six Day War cartoon where Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt is booting the Jews out of the Middle East with the fervent support of the Arab world:

“The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.” -Gamal Abdel Nasser May 30, 1967.



Remember, that's in millions of dollars. Now how much do they give Europeans and Palestine on a regular basis?


Can you link me to where exactly you located that because I'm on their site and cannot find it. There's a lot of content and I'm in a hurry. I don't have time to find a lot of examples with details but here's one example. 28 billion to the FSU with an added 2 billion every single year.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32866.pdf


I'll address the rest later, but my mom's got broken ribs (got in a car wreck a few days ago,) and i gotta go help her with stuff.

Yei
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


I’m sorry; you must not have gotten the notice. This is a no spin zone. No spinning allowed. That’s not what I was talking about and you know it. I was referencing the UN resolution to create separate Jewish and Arab states in Palestine. I think, as the AL acknowledged, that the UN’s plan was fair and logical. They gave regions where most of the land was owned and populated by Jewish people to the Jews and did the same with the Arabs. That wound up giving the Jews about .1% of the Middle East and 20% of the British Mandate. The Arabs got 80% of the British Mandate and 99.9% of the Middle East.

The ethnic cleansing would’ve been avoided if the Arab League had not launched a genocidal campaign against the Jews. I cannot and will not deny or justify the ethnic cleansing. Israel was wrong, and the innocent Arabs did not deserve that. Still, I have no more pity for the Arab combatants killed than I do for the Christians who were slaughtered by Muslim defenders when they invaded Islamic territory. I have no more pity for the Arab League than I do for Nazi Germany and in the end we’re getting sidetracked because that’s NOT what I was describing as fair.


I don't like the Arab league at all, they are just America's dogs, so ridiculously corrupt and evil. But it's no surprise Palestinians and Arabs refused after how the Zionists came in and just how unfair they thought it was to have to give up that land to the Jews, so they refused it because they just thought that they didn't have to give anything up and were very upset at the Zionists.




That’s probably true, and from their perspective I don’t think that they are at all evil people. However, on the same note you must acknowledge that the Jews who migrated into the region were educated to believe it was a ‘land without people for a people without land.’ From their perspective they were not evil people. Both perspectives were wrong. By 1948 most of the territory that was allotted out to become Israel was already Jewish property. The Jews were buying land at a startling rate, laying down roots and building thriving civilizations. So, the Arabs weren’t really losing much land with the UN resolution because it’d already been bought from the Arabs by the Jews like Pennsylvania from the Native Americans. As it stood, the land had never belonged to them, and although they’d been educated to believe it did, it didn’t.

They were not an indigenous people and did not even identify themselves as Palestinians until twenty years later. There was no cultural ethos whatsoever, and the regional brogue was not even universal amongst their numbers. In fact at that point the British, Jews, and Arabs alike in the area were ALL called Palestinians-and the Arabs couldn't even pronounce it.


All this land they were buying, who did it previously belong to?




They united fairly well in 1948 and again in 1967. Even if they were not directly involved they sent indirect support as illustrated in this pre-Six Day War cartoon where Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt is booting the Jews out of the Middle East with the fervent support of the Arab world:

“The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.” -Gamal Abdel Nasser May 30, 1967.


Well, after what Israel did to the Palestinians in 1948, it's not really surprising. The real source of the problem, is the ethnic cleansing and refugee problem. How ridiculously unfair it was that one million Palestinians lost their homes and land that they still have the deeds for, and were forced to move to refugee camps where they still remain. They wanted their land back and they want their lives back, and Israel wasn't about to let that happen, so they're angry. And the Arabs in general were angry that this huge injustice happened to the Palestinians, and they blame it all on Israel.





Can you link me to where exactly you located that because I'm on their site and cannot find it. There's a lot of content and I'm in a hurry. I don't have time to find a lot of examples with details but here's one example. 28 billion to the FSU with an added 2 billion every single year.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL32866.pdf


I'll address the rest later, but my mom's got broken ribs (got in a car wreck a few days ago,) and i gotta go help her with stuff.



I found it here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf


I hope your mom gets better.


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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/8/09

Yei wrote:

I don't like the Arab league at all, they are just America's dogs, so ridiculously corrupt and evil. But it's no surprise Palestinians and Arabs refused after how the Zionists came in and just how unfair they thought it was to have to give up that land to the Jews, so they refused it because they just thought that they didn't have to give anything up and were very upset at the Zionists.


Let's be honest, they were upset with the Jews in general. They didn't want the Jews in the Middle East.



All this land they were buying, who did it previously belong to?


Do you mean nationally or privately? Privately it belonged to individual Arabs who willing parted with it in exchange for money, which isn’t having their land taken. Nationally, it belonged to the British Mandate, prior to which it belonged to the Turks.



Well, after what Israel did to the Palestinians in 1948, it's not really surprising. The real source of the problem, is the ethnic cleansing and refugee problem.


Again, the ethnic cleansing would never have happened if not for the Arab League. And the refugees would've never been displaced if they had just accepted the UN's plan.


How ridiculously unfair it was that one million Palestinians lost their homes and land that they still have the deeds for, and were forced to move to refugee camps where they still remain. They wanted their land back and they want their lives back, and Israel wasn't about to let that happen, so they're angry. And the Arabs in general were angry that this huge injustice happened to the Palestinians, and they blame it all on Israel.


70% of them left of their own volition, never even seeing an Israeli soldier. The Arab League and Muslims urged them to clear out to avoid being caught in the cross fire.

"The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."– The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.


“For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy."– The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.


The Arab League has already admitted that it was their mistake that made the Palestinians refugees and they openly announced that they should've just accepted the UN resolution and that they regret having been so xenophobic and bellicose.


Thanks. By the way, something I found on that just glancing through that you should be happy about: Continued Israeli settlement building led the United States to reduce the amount of aid it has extended to Israel.



Thanks. By the way, something I found on that just glancing through that you should be happy about: Continued Israeli settlement building lead the United States to reduce the amount of aid it has extended to Israel.



I hope your mom gets better.

Thanks again. Yeah, she's okay, just needs help doing stuff all the time.

EDIT:
Reading the link you posted I now understand where our clash is coming from. American military spending in Israel isn’t typically considered as traditional foreign aid because it’s actually a mutual investment on both parts. Your article acknowledges this but does not itself follow the norm.


Israel became the largest recipient of U.S. foreign assistance in 1974. From 1971 to the present, U.S. aid to Israel has averaged over $2.6 billion per year, two-thirds of which has been military assistance.


Interestingly enough, prior to 1974 France had been doing the same thing America began doing.
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Posted 6/8/09 , edited 6/8/09
Nothing.
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Posted 6/8/09
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digs 
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Posted 6/8/09
I don't think the Palestinian Arabs even need to have their own country. There are 22 (I think) Arab countries in the Middle East. Jordan was already allotted to the Arabs when the British Mandate was split up. There is no need for another Arab nation. I think the West Bank and Gaza should go completely to Israel. The Arabs who refuse to live there can move to any other Arab nation that holds whatever religious and racial preferences they want. If not, they can live in Israel and enjoy religious freedom, a high quality of life, and a country with an growing economy that isn't based on oil. Over 20% of Israel's population is Arab, and they are just fine living there because they look past the whole Arab nationalism thing.
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Posted 6/8/09 , edited 6/8/09

digs wrote:

I don't think the Palestinian Arabs even need to have their own country. There are 22 (I think) Arab countries in the Middle East. Jordan was already allotted to the Arabs when the British Mandate was split up. There is no need for another Arab nation. I think the West Bank and Gaza should go completely to Israel. The Arabs who refuse to live there can move to any other Arab nation that holds whatever religious and racial preferences they want. If not, they can live in Israel and enjoy religious freedom, a high quality of life, and a country with an growing economy that isn't based on oil. Over 20% of Israel's population is Arab, and they are just fine living there because they look past the whole Arab nationalism thing.


Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation, it produced the cell phone, answering machines, American Online, it has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship, it doesn’t practice FGM like Arab/Muslim communities, it has the highest rate of female entrepreneurship, and really it just uses the land to a higher potential than I believe that the Palestinians-given the PLO-will.

Never the less, the territory belongs to the Palestinians and only they get to make that decision. Israel has no right to take over their territory and say, “We’ll use this for the greater good!” That’s fascism by ever definition of the term. Also, if you give Israel Westbank and Gaza by 2026 they’ll be forced into a corner in which they have only two options: ethnic cleansing, or apartheid. In Westbank apartheid is already in place.

I think Israel needs to get out of Westbank and Gaza. I think it also needs to honor its agreement with the US and stop building settlements in the Westbank. It gave up the Golan Heights, the Sinai Peninsula, and Gaza as concessions to peace. Now finish the job and stop the apertheid in westbank.
Posted 8/5/09
Isn't this from last year?
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Posted 8/5/09

SMDYB_Reborn wrote:

Isn't this from last year?


The television show? Well, it’s been around for a while but it’s apparently on going. They don’t use the mouse anymore. He apparently died a martyr. After him they switched to a rabbit who stirred controversy by vowing to “Eat the Jews, Insha’Allah.” Then they announced to the children that he was murdered by the Jews during the recent Israel v. Hamas conflict in Gaza. Now I think they have a horse or a donkey.
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