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Christian & Islamic views of Homosexuality
Yei
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09
I just watched this interesting documentary called "For the Bible Tells Me So"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY&feature=related), which I would strongly recommend to any Christian.

Sexual orientation is not a choice btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYMjXucTFaM


Anyways, something that always confused me was that if Christianity and Islam were completely against homosexuality, how could there be Christian and Muslim gay activates? I thought the Bible and Quran both clearly said homosexuality was a sin and unacceptable, so how could there be Muslims and Christians saying it is acceptable? This documentary explained a lot for me.

In the past, religions (both Christianity and Islam) were used to justify sexism, making people believe men are higher than women. They were also used to justify racism, apartheid, discrimination, etc. That doesn't mean those religions actually do justify sexism and racism, it just means they could be used to do so. So verses from the Bible/Quran could be manipulated in ways to incite hate in people, that's a very normal application of religion in the past.

First of all, let's start with the Bible. If you ask the average Christian what the Bible says about homosexuality, if they are somewhat knowledgeable, they would say that it says homosexuality is an abomination. There are about 6 or 7 mentions of homosexuality in scripture, two of the most common ones in Leviticus.

Leviticus 18:22:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


What most people don't realize, is the Bible also says it's an abomination to eat shrimp or rabbit. When reading the Bible or Quran it is extremely important that you do not take a verse out of context and literally. If we look at that verse in the proper historical context, we see that God uses abomination over and over, and it means "against their tradition" or "against ritual." God's not talking about homosexuality in general, according to many scholars, the people of that time, the Hebrews, were a group of people trying to increase in population, so Moses was instructing them on how to live. So in the proper context, those verses mean homosexuality would be against what that specific group of people's interests and tradition.

If Christians took all the verses in the Bible as literal and straight forward as these verses are taken, without any consideration of context and time period, there would be alot of problems. According to the Bible people should be killed for working on the Sabbath. And it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery. I don't see many Christians killing people who work on the Sabbath or selling their daughters into slavery. On those verses Christians would say it's not literal, you have to look at the context, you need consider alot of other factors, etc. But on the verses about homosexuality, no, those are clear and straight forward apparently.

The real problem with literalists is the level of hypocrisy that they display. They only take the verses they like literally, and when it comes to the one that says you need to take all you have and give it to the poor, they're not emptying their bank accounts and selling their homes, suddenly, they're trying to find a deeper meaning and looking at context. When people say "what does the Bible say" on an issue, and they quote the Bible directly, that's wrong. That's what the Bible reads, not what Christianity and Jesus really taught about that issue. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. If it was a real important issue, you'd think he'd mention something about it, but Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with it.

It's common knowledge that many Christians don't really read the Bible. They don't really know what's in it, they just usually accept whatever they're told it says. They take someone else's word on what the Bible teaches, and that is a very powerful tool for leaders who want to manipulate people.

Sodom and Gomorrah is another part of the Bible lots of Christians like to use against homosexuality. They say God destroyed the city because all the people there were gay. According to many scholars, the story has very little to do with homosexuality. Lot invited in the two angels and treated them well, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were bad people and made a rule that no one could be hospitable to guests because they would steal their wealth, or something along those lines. So they demanded that the two guests be handed over to them, some versions say they said they wanted to rape them, some say "know" them. Regardless, the city got destroyed because they were bad people and not because they were all gay.


The Quran never really mentions homosexuality, there's no word for it. The similar, but not exactly the same story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot is the only "guidance" for homosexuality that the Quran seems to give:

Sura 7:80-84:


"And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in? Verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.' But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.' But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered; and we rained down upon them a rain; -- see then how was the end of the sinners!"


Right away, it's very clear this isn't definitive proof that homosexuality is a sin. The key word, according to gay Muslims, is "lust." In Arabic, the word could be interpreted as just rape, so Lot could have been just mad at these guys for constantly raping other guys. But still, it's just a story, it's not definitive evidence that Islam is against homosexuality. And this story is all the Quran says about homosexuality. And it specifically talks about guys and sodomy, it never even mentions lesbians. So it could be easily said that homosexuality is acceptable by Islam.

According to the last consensus by the biggest gay organization in the world (which just happens to be a Muslims one lol), there are about 50 million gay Muslims (who are willing to admit it).

So, homphobia comes more from culture and people's ignorance than religion. In reality both the Bible and Quran do not give any specific guidance or condemnation of homosexuality. The problem with the Bible is that there's no Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic words for these concepts of human sexuality, therefore the translation/interpretation that comes out to look like it's condemning homosexuality is completely misunderstood. In the documentary they go on to explain many more verses that people see as condemning homosexuality.




Sooo, religion was wrongfully used to justify discrimination against women, people of a different race, and now sexual orientation. People are just afraid of anything different, or things they don't understand. You'd think people would have learned something from the past. I don't think Jesus or Muhammed would approve of this hate and discrimination against people just because they have a different sexual orientation. That's wrong and unfair, we're going to look back at this time period after homosexuals get equal rights (which they inevitably will achieve) the same way we look back at the civil rights movement for racial equality, today.
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digs 
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The Bible calls homosexuality a sin worthy of death. All is is worthy of death, not just that one. Some of the verses in the Bible are to be taken literally and not pushed through the screen of moral relativism. Context is extremely important because anyone can pull out a verse that might say "ate children" or something absurd and claim that the Bible supports that. The Christian view of homosexuality is that it is a sin, and that there is no justifying that behavior. Culture and moral relativism might say it is an acceptable and normal practice, but as Christians we hate the sin and love the sinner. The Bible doesn't teach homophobia, and Jesus is a prime example of how we are to live among others who aren't Christians and struggle with sin. We are to love homosexuals and reach out to them, but we aren't supposed to approve of or accept their sinful behavior. It's the same thing with drug addicts, prostitutes, and anyone else. We are to love those people, but not agree with what they do and help them turn to God through example, not through force or by screaming hellfire at them.

Homophobia does come from culture and from personal choice. You are very right when you say people understand Christianity with ignorance in order to justify homophobia. Under their logic they should also be scared of prostitutes, and the women they have adulterous/premarital sex with. They say they hate gays because it's wrong and gross, then by the same logic they should feel gross and hate the women who preform sexual favors on them (outside of marriage). They do it because human nature loves to hate, and when they feel hate has been justified they jump to it. A prime example would be Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. They are homophobic, intolerant, and there is no love behind what they say. It isn't homophobia to believe homosexuality is a sin and to oppose gay marriage. But it is homophobia to hate homosexuals and scream for their condemnation and hellfire. You are so right when you talk about the hypocrisy of those who believe "literally" in certain parts of the Bible.
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digs wrote:

The Bible calls homosexuality a sin worthy of death. All is is worthy of death, not just that one. Some of the verses in the Bible are to be taken literally and not pushed through the screen of moral relativism. Context is extremely important because anyone can pull out a verse that might say "ate children" or something absurd and claim that the Bible supports that. The Christian view of homosexuality is that it is a sin, and that there is no justifying that behavior. Culture and moral relativism might say it is an acceptable and normal practice, but as Christians we hate the sin and love the sinner. The Bible doesn't teach homophobia, and Jesus is a prime example of how we are to live among others who aren't Christians and struggle with sin. We are to love homosexuals and reach out to them, but we aren't supposed to approve of or accept their sinful behavior. It's the same thing with drug addicts, prostitutes, and anyone else. We are to love those people, but not agree with what they do and help them turn to God through example, not through force or by screaming hellfire at them.


Well that's your interpretation of what Christianity teaches. There are many Christian scholars who say that homosexuality is not a sin, and to call homosexuality a sin would be the equivalent of calling having freckles a sin. It's out of the person's control and there's nothing wrong with it anyway.



Homophobia does come from culture and from personal choice. You are very right when you say people understand Christianity with ignorance in order to justify homophobia. Under their logic they should also be scared of prostitutes, and the women they have adulterous/premarital sex with. They say they hate gays because it's wrong and gross, then by the same logic they should feel gross and hate the women who preform sexual favors on them (outside of marriage). They do it because human nature loves to hate, and when they feel hate has been justified they jump to it. A prime example would be Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. They are homophobic, intolerant, and there is no love behind what they say. It isn't homophobia to believe homosexuality is a sin and to oppose gay marriage. But it is homophobia to hate homosexuals and scream for their condemnation and hellfire. You are so right when you talk about the hypocrisy of those who believe "literally" in certain parts of the Bible.


The combination of their ignorant understanding of Christianity, their fear of anything different, and fear of the idea of feminizing men, all combines to create a very homophobic environment. But the root of the problem is the fact that people are taught it is a sin and unnatural. How could you not expect people to start discriminating and becoming hateful when they have that mentality?

Here's the movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY&feature=related

It's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen.
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Homosexuality and Bisexuality is a naturally occurring thing, as its been documented in just about 1500 species, so since it's a naturally occurring thing, whats the problem with it ? Other animals besides humans do it, it only makes sense that humans being animals themselves would also do it as well. homosexuality is a perfectly normal and natural thing, nothing to be afraid of or condemn for stupid reasons like "god told me so", for as Yei said god also said to sell your daughter into slavery and kill anyone who works on the sabbath, but I don't see people doing that.


And if you don't believe me what i say it's a naturally occurring thing read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

And if you'd like to see a list of some of the species it's been documented in then read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
Yei
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Allhailodin wrote:

Homosexuality and Bisexuality is a naturally occurring thing, as its been documented in just about 1500 species, so since it's a naturally occurring thing, whats the problem with it ? Other animals besides humans do it, it only makes sense that humans being animals themselves would also do it as well. homosexuality is a perfectly normal and natural thing, nothing to be afraid of or condemn for stupid reasons like "god told me so", for as Yei said god also said to sell your daughter into slavery and kill anyone who works on the sabbath, but I don't see people doing that.


And if you don't believe me what i say it's a naturally occurring thing read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

And if you'd like to see a list of some of the species it's been documented in then read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior


This is part of the documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYMjXucTFaM

If you think homosexuality is a choice or can be changed, watch that^

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Posted 6/7/09

Yei wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:

Homosexuality and Bisexuality is a naturally occurring thing, as its been documented in just about 1500 species, so since it's a naturally occurring thing, whats the problem with it ? Other animals besides humans do it, it only makes sense that humans being animals themselves would also do it as well. homosexuality is a perfectly normal and natural thing, nothing to be afraid of or condemn for stupid reasons like "god told me so", for as Yei said god also said to sell your daughter into slavery and kill anyone who works on the sabbath, but I don't see people doing that.


And if you don't believe me what i say it's a naturally occurring thing read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

And if you'd like to see a list of some of the species it's been documented in then read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior


This is part of the documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYMjXucTFaM

If you think homosexuality is a choice or can be changed, watch that^



Well it is still technically possible that some people (a select few) choose to be homosexual for whatever reason, but the majority (99.5%) are not homosexual by choice. Its been set for them in the womb, actually a recent study done on homosexual and heterosexual people found actual brain structure differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex, the homosexual males brain looked like the brain of a heterosexual female, and the homosexual females brain looked like the brain of a heterosexual male. That shows that people are born gay, as brain structure gets set in womb. It's not possible to alter your brain structure by choice.
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My religious opinion on homosexuality in general:


Concerning the direct topic of the thread:

You have some good points and I enjoyed reading it. I’ll be playing devil’s advocate here, but here are some counter arguments you should consider.

Number One:


Number Two:



Number Three:



Yei
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SeraphAlford wrote:

My religious opinion on homosexuality in general:


Choosing to engage in heterosexual activities is a sin? But I thought you were allowed to get married and have a relationship in Christianity Do you mean outside of marriage?




Number One:


I don't remember commenting on any other suras in the Quran before. But yeah, I bet many people do that with both the Bible and Quran.

And no, I said there is no word for homosexuality in the Quran. The word for "lust" can also mean "rape".



Number Two:


I was writing this as I was watching the documentary lol, so I was just listening to the examples the scholars were giving, then I looked the verses up. I'm sure I could find lots of other better examples if I looked in both the Bible and Quran.


Number Three:


Some people can literally believe the world started off with Adam and Eve and a couple centuries of incest later they populated the whole world. Or the Noah's Ark story. Many of my friends don't take those literally, they're just fables with a nice lesson. People need to decide for themselves I guess. But I don't see how homosexuality fits in with those. It's not really literal vs metaphorical, it's literally vs the real meaning not taken out of context or at face value. And when was Muhammad discussing homosexuality? Which hadith?
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

Yei wrote:
Choosing to engage in heterosexual activities is a sin? But I thought you were allowed to get married and have a relationship in Christianity Do you mean outside of marriage?


Depends on which heterosexual activities and which denominations. Catholics, for example, believe that it’s sinful to use birth control. The old testament of the bible says, “it is better to have your seed in the belly of a whore than spilt on the ground” Also, there’s a mitzvah somewhere that says something like “those who commit sodomy should be stoned,” which includes a man with his wife. This being said, there’s a transition in the bible where Jesus come and nails the law to the cross so we don’t necessarily acknowledge the mitzvah.

You see, the Tanakh is the Jewish cannon of divinely inspire literature. It’s the Old Testament of the Christian religion. The mitzvah were laws giving the Israelites a structure with which to govern their society. Judaism, like Islam, is in this way a political religion. Christianity is more focused on individual living than the community. It’s a mysticism. So, we live based on morals, not –necessarily- laws.


And when was Muhammad discussing homosexuality? Which hadith?


GRRRR! :p I haven’t looked up the Hadith or picked up my Qur’an in a long time. Okay, in the Qur’an: 27:54-58, 29:28-30, 7:80-7:85, and I know there’s some others but these are the only ones I can find right now.

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (26:165-166).

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!" (27:55).

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (7:81). "And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!" (7:84). "He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!"" (29:30). (these are from the edit I put at the end have not looked them up myself.)



Hadith: "Whoever has intercourse with a woman and penetrates her rectum, or with a man, or with a boy, will appear on the Last Day stinking worse than a corpse; people will find him unbearable until he enters hell fire, and God will cancel all his good deeds”



EDIT: Here, did a google search and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam
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SeraphAlford wrote:
“those who commit sodomy should be stoned,”


Yea, it really helps you to relax those muscles I would imagine.
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Posted 6/7/09

Droodika wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:
“those who commit sodomy should be stoned,”


Yea, it really helps you to relax those muscles I would imagine.


I bet it'd be easier to crap afterwards....
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SeraphAlford wrote:


Droodika wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:
“those who commit sodomy should be stoned,”


Yea, it really helps you to relax those muscles I would imagine.


I bet it'd be easier to crap afterwards....


Epic thread kill ftw.
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Yei wrote:

Some people can literally believe the world started off with Adam and Eve and a couple centuries of incest later they populated the whole world. Or the Noah's Ark story. Many of my friends don't take those literally, they're just fables with a nice lesson. People need to decide for themselves I guess. But I don't see how homosexuality fits in with those. It's not really literal vs metaphorical, it's literally vs the real meaning not taken out of context or at face value. And when was Muhammad discussing homosexuality? Which hadith?


If you believe that, then no matter who you have sex with, its incest, everyone is your family technically. Tho there isn't a problem with incest as long as you don't have kids. But it's still impossible to populate the world with only 2 people.
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Posted 6/7/09

Droodika wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:


Droodika wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:
“those who commit sodomy should be stoned,”


Yea, it really helps you to relax those muscles I would imagine.


I bet it'd be easier to crap afterwards....


Epic thread kill ftw.


Lol, let's get back on topic before we start telling Catholic Priest jokes.
Yei
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:
Choosing to engage in heterosexual activities is a sin? But I thought you were allowed to get married and have a relationship in Christianity Do you mean outside of marriage?


Depends on which heterosexual activities and which denominations. Catholics, for example, believe that it’s sinful to use birth control. The old testament of the bible says, “it is better to have your seed in the belly of a whore than spilt on the ground” Also, there’s a mitzvah somewhere that says something like “those who commit sodomy should be stoned,” which includes a man with his wife. This being said, there’s a transition in the bible where Jesus come and nails the law to the cross so we don’t necessarily acknowledge the mitzvah.

You see, the Tanakh is the Jewish cannon of divinely inspire literature. It’s the Old Testament of the Christian religion. The mitzvah were laws giving the Israelites a structure with which to govern their society. Judaism, like Islam, is in this way a political religion. Christianity is more focused on individual living than the community. It’s a mysticism. So, we live based on morals, not –necessarily- laws.


Ok. So do you think it's acceptable for homosexuals to have relationships with each other? And do you think homosexuals should have the right to get married?






GRRRR! :p I haven’t looked up the Hadith or picked up my Qur’an in a long time. Okay, in the Qur’an: 27:54-58, 29:28-30, 7:80-7:85, and I know there’s some others but these are the only ones I can find right now.

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (26:165-166).

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!" (27:55).

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (7:81). "And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!" (7:84). "He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!"" (29:30). (these are from the edit I put at the end have not looked them up myself.)



Hadith: "Whoever has intercourse with a woman and penetrates her rectum, or with a man, or with a boy, will appear on the Last Day stinking worse than a corpse; people will find him unbearable until he enters hell fire, and God will cancel all his good deeds”



EDIT: Here, did a google search and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam


Well, you said Muhammed was talking about homosexuality, so I assumed you were talking only about the Hadith. I already know all the Quran verses. The credibility of Hadiths is really questionable.

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