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Christian & Islamic views of Homosexuality
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Posted 6/7/09

Yei wrote:

Ok. So do you think it's acceptable for homosexuals to have relationships with each other? And do you think homosexuals should have the right to get married?


I didn’t say it was unacceptable. I just said that, religiously, I don’t agree with it. I don’t agree with prostitution either, but I think it should be legal to. I don’t agree with heterosexual relations outside of marriage, but I’m not going to suggest arresting everyone who practices it. I’m against destroying your body with drugs, but I believe we have a right to our own body and that nobody should FORCE us to take care of it.



Well, you said Muhammed was talking about homosexuality, so I assumed you were talking only about the Hadith. I already know all the Quran verses. The credibility of Hadiths is really questionable.



I know, the Hadith aren't fully authenticated-historians and Muslims alike are aware of this.
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Posted 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

Ok. So do you think it's acceptable for homosexuals to have relationships with each other? And do you think homosexuals should have the right to get married?


I didn’t say it was unacceptable. I just said that, religiously, I don’t agree with it. I don’t agree with prostitution either, but I think it should be legal to. I don’t agree with heterosexual relations outside of marriage, but I’m not going to suggest arresting everyone who practices it. I’m against destroying your body with drugs, but I believe we have a right to our own body and that nobody should FORCE us to take care of it.


And why don't you agree with it? What would be the problem if two homosexuals got married and had a relationship, how would that be any different than a heterosexual married couple?
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

Yei wrote:

And why don't you agree with it? What would be the problem if two homosexuals got married and had a relationship, how would that be any different than a heterosexual married couple?


I hope you’re not confused. You do understand that I draw a clear line between my politics and my religion? There’s no problem at all, I just don’t consider it to coincide with Christian, or Islamic for that matter, morality-and I’m a Christian. I chose to live my life based on Christian moraltiy. What other people do is none of my business. I think that gays have a right to have sex together.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

And why don't you agree with it? What would be the problem if two homosexuals got married and had a relationship, how would that be any different than a heterosexual married couple?


I hope you’re not confused. You do understand that I draw a clear line between my politics and my religion? There’s no problem at all, I just don’t consider it to coincide with Christian, or Islamic for that matter, morality-and I’m a Christian. I chose to live my life based on Christian moraltiy. What other people do is none of my business. I think that gays have a right to have sex together.


I know that. I wasn't talking in terms of politics, why is it a problem for Christianity and Islam? That makes both religions pretty unfair for homosexuals.
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Posted 6/7/09

Yei wrote:I know that. I wasn't talking in terms of politics, why is it a problem for Christianity and Islam? That makes both religions pretty unfair for homosexuals.


Well, according to the bible homosexuality originated through a sort of social evolution. People chose to behave in homosexual ways eventually developing to where they preferred it and passing that desire on to their children. This is the consequence of human action-and a major theme to Christianity is that God doesn’t interfere with human choice-and what’s a choice without consequence. It’s just a mechanical action; therefore, if God were to pop in and take away all the negative side effects of our choices he’d effectively be forcing his goodness on us and taking away our volition.

So, in other words, yes. It’s unfair just like the people born into poverty and starvation. But, it’s just another evil created by man.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:I know that. I wasn't talking in terms of politics, why is it a problem for Christianity and Islam? That makes both religions pretty unfair for homosexuals.


Well, according to the bible homosexuality originated through a sort of social evolution. People chose to behave in homosexual ways eventually developing to where they preferred it and passing that desire on to their children. This is the consequence of human action-and a major theme to Christianity is that God doesn’t interfere with human choice-and what’s a choice without consequence. It’s just a mechanical action; therefore, if God were to pop in and take away all the negative side effects of our choices he’d effectively be forcing his goodness on us and taking away our volition.

So, in other words, yes. It’s unfair just like the people born into poverty and starvation. But, it’s just another evil created by man.


Well then it's caused actual human evolution too then, as there are actual brain structure differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex. Also its not man made, it occurs naturally in nature, it's been documented in 1500 species.
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Posted 6/7/09

Allhailodin wrote:
Well then it's caused actual human evolution too then, as there are actual brain structure differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex.


Concerning those supposed brain structure differences, the study was inconclusive at best. You see, not all gays posses the characteristics being associated with homosexuality it was a generalization. In addition, the differences were in the strand of material separating the two lobes of the brain-which is in no way related to sexual preferences. It’s simply a connected of material, sometimes called the ‘hard body,’ responsible for communicating signals between the two lobes of the brain. As a matter of a fact, in reaction to certain disorders doctors have been known to slice this body of material preventing the communication but in no way effecting sexual preference.

Moreover, social evolution DOES cause hereditary variations.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:
Choosing to engage in heterosexual activities is a sin? But I thought you were allowed to get married and have a relationship in Christianity Do you mean outside of marriage?


Depends on which heterosexual activities and which denominations. Catholics, for example, believe that it’s sinful to use birth control. The old testament of the bible says, “it is better to have your seed in the belly of a whore than spilt on the ground” Also, there’s a mitzvah somewhere that says something like “those who commit sodomy should be stoned,” which includes a man with his wife. This being said, there’s a transition in the bible where Jesus come and nails the law to the cross so we don’t necessarily acknowledge the mitzvah.

You see, the Tanakh is the Jewish cannon of divinely inspire literature. It’s the Old Testament of the Christian religion. The mitzvah were laws giving the Israelites a structure with which to govern their society. Judaism, like Islam, is in this way a political religion. Christianity is more focused on individual living than the community. It’s a mysticism. So, we live based on morals, not –necessarily- laws.


And when was Muhammad discussing homosexuality? Which hadith?


GRRRR! :p I haven’t looked up the Hadith or picked up my Qur’an in a long time. Okay, in the Qur’an: 27:54-58, 29:28-30, 7:80-7:85, and I know there’s some others but these are the only ones I can find right now.

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (26:165-166).

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!" (27:55).

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." (7:81). "And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!" (7:84). "He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!"" (29:30). (these are from the edit I put at the end have not looked them up myself.)



Hadith: "Whoever has intercourse with a woman and penetrates her rectum, or with a man, or with a boy, will appear on the Last Day stinking worse than a corpse; people will find him unbearable until he enters hell fire, and God will cancel all his good deeds”



EDIT: Here, did a google search and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Islam


Seraph plz your not a Muslim so please stop speaking for Islam. It is very frustrating when a non-Muslim tries to tell others what Islam is about in certain issue. I do not do this with Christianity or Judaism because they are not my religion therefore I have to right to preach something if I am not fully sure of it. I know your very knowledgeable of some aspects of the religion but seeing you in some other threads you still dont have the religion grasped down yet as you repeat many of the stereotypes developed in the west. If no muslim responded to this thread then it doesnt appeal to us so leave our religion out thanks.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:
Well then it's caused actual human evolution too then, as there are actual brain structure differences between homosexual and heterosexual people of the same sex.


Concerning those supposed brain structure differences, the study was inconclusive at best. You see, not all gays posses the characteristics being associated with homosexuality it was a generalization. In addition, the differences were in the strand of material separating the two lobes of the brain-which is in no way related to sexual preferences. It’s simply a connected of material, sometimes called the ‘hard body,’ responsible for communicating signals between the two lobes of the brain. As a matter of a fact, in reaction to certain disorders doctors have been known to slice this body of material preventing the communication but in no way effecting sexual preference.

Moreover, social evolution DOES cause hereditary variations.


Actually it wasnt inconclusive as best, it was pretty detailed.



Also that piece of connecting tissue is important.



So it does have something to do with sexual preferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala


But homosexuality is not man made, its a naturally occuring thing, like i said, it's been documented in just about 1500 species. So it occurs in naturally in nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals <--- Read this.
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Posted 6/7/09

drizza wrote:
Seraph plz your not a Muslim so please stop speaking for Islam.


Wait a minute; I don’t recall having ever claimed that I represent Islam. There’s a difference between speaking for Islam and speaking of Islam. I was asked a question: where did I see Muhammad talk about homosexuality? I answered the question and then you start talking about how frustrating it is.


It is very frustrating when a non-Muslim tries to tell others what Islam is about in certain issue. I do not do this with Christianity or Judaism because they are not my religion therefore I have to right to preach something if I am not fully sure of it. I know your very knowledgeable of some aspects of the religion but seeing you in some other threads you still dont have the religion grasped down yet as you repeat many of the stereotypes developed in the west. If no muslim responded to this thread then it doesnt appeal to us so leave our religion out thanks.


First off, I don’t preach. Second off, I’ve read the Qur’an for myself. I’m not repeating stereotypes, I’m just not interested in providing politically correct imagine of Islam. I’m double majoring in political science and, get this, theology.
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Posted 6/7/09
i'm a christian, but i don't believe homosexuality is wrong. i'm all for the legalization of same-sex marriages.
the thread starter said the bible is not meant to be interpreted literally. i agree with this.
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

Allhailodin wrote:

Actually it wasnt inconclusive as best, it was pretty detailed.


According to the American Psychological Association:


There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors.
-http://www.apahelpcenter.org/articles/article.php?id=31


What determines whether people become homosexual or heterosexual? Although there are a number of theories, none has proved completely satisfactory.
- Feldman, Robert S. Understanding Psychology. 8th ed. New York City: McGraw-Hill, 008. Print. (See page 382. It's in the last paragraph.)


Also that piece of connecting tissue is important.

So it does have something to do with sexual preferences.

But homosexuality is not man made, its a naturally occuring thing, like i said, it's been documented in just about 1500 species. So it occurs in naturally in nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals <--- Read this.


Studies demonstrate that not all homosexuals display the subtle variations you’re discussing, but many heterosexuals do. So, it is not conclusive as a study to show that homosexuality is a naturally occurring genetic or biological process. It’s simply suggests that men with the female-type brain are statistically more likely to be homosexual than men with the male-type brain.

This seems likely to me when I consider other studies I’ve researched. In 1997, for example, there was a test involving identical twins. You see identical twins also have identical genetic structures. So, assuming that homosexual was predetermined based only on genetic and biological factors if one twin turned out to be gay the other twin would as well. Well, it didn’t work out that way. The study showed that the rate is higher among twins but not universal; therefore, homosexuality cannot be completely predetermined. (Hammer et al., 1993; Turner, 1995; Kirk, Bailey, & Martin, 200.)

Other experiment showed that homosexual men tend to have a thicker anterior commisure, but again there was too much variation to conclude that this was the primary cause. Some heterosexual men also have a thicker anterior commisure than is average, while a number of the homosexual subjects had a thinner anterior commisure than average. Further studies show that homosexuals often have a structures to the anterior hypothalamus, which does dictate sexual behavior, that isn’t entirely congruent with heterosexuals. The study was criticized, however, because the number of subjects was finite and because-once again, it wasn’t always true. It simply provided a generalization which does not necessarily suggest a biological cause, merely a biological tendency.(LeVay, 1993; Bryne, 1996.)

However, social evolution is a natural process. In one species of lizard, for example, there was a period of low male birth rate. The females actually began to cope with sexual drives by attempting to mate with one another-and their offspring inherited this characteristics. (I don’t actually have a source to cite for this, so you may just toss it out and assume I’m lying. I saw it on Animal Planet, but I don’t remember the date, the show, or any of the relevant information for citing. I just recollect the content.)

Also, just because something natural occurs in a large number of species does not mean that it naturally occurs for all species. Besides, fifteen hundred isn’t really a large number considering that there are 1.8 million known species in existence. (Heilprin, John. "Genetic 'Barcodes' Used to Identify Species." MSNBC. 14 Sept. 2007. Associated Press. 2 Jan. 20)



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Posted 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


First off, I don’t preach. Second off, I’ve read the Qur’an for myself. I’m not repeating stereotypes, I’m just not interested in providing politically correct imagine of Islam. I’m double majoring in political science and, get this, theology.


But if you note the title says "Islamic view", not your own view.

Using "Google" or "wikipedia" doesn't mean you have the Islamic view, even muslim scholars have to study all verses and hadiths that talked about one issue then analyse them from all aspects(literally, historically, biographically, ...) before saying one word about it.


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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

Real_ZERO wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:


First off, I don’t preach. Second off, I’ve read the Qur’an for myself. I’m not repeating stereotypes, I’m just not interested in providing politically correct imagine of Islam. I’m double majoring in political science and, get this, theology.


But if you note the title says "Islamic view", not your own view.

Using "Google" or "wikipedia" doesn't mean you have the Islamic view, even muslim scholars have to study all verses and hadiths that talked about one issue then analyse them from all aspects(literally, historically, biographically, ...) before saying one word about it.




I didn't write the title, and I didn't even state "Islam says this," I simply cited the Qur'an and Hadith. I let you the reader make up your mind on how that should be interpreted. And I actually have read the Qur'an, which is ironic because I'm a Christian and I haven't read the whole bible.

And I still don't see how I'm promoting a stereotype by citing the Qur'an. I didn't even come in here and start throwing citations down. I was -asked- to show the citations and complied. What should I say, "Sorry but citing the Qur'an frustrates Muslims?"
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Posted 6/7/09 , edited 6/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

Also, just because something natural occurs in a large number of species does not mean that it naturally occurs for all species. Besides, fifteen hundred isn’t really a large number considering that there are 1.8 million known species in existence. (Heilprin, John. "Genetic 'Barcodes' Used to Identify Species." MSNBC. 14 Sept. 2007. Associated Press. 2 Jan. 20)


Taken from the wiki page


No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue


Also taken from the page.


Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual, bisexual and transgender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting. Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, has been observed in close to 1500 species


So it's been observed in 1500 species, the number of species that also does it is probably much much higher. So if it occurs naturally in species in nature, it makes sense, that it would appear in man, who was also a part of nature at one point, it occurs naturally in animals, so us being animals ourselves have it too. We too are part of the animal kingdom like all the other species that have homosexual and bisexual members.
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