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Christian & Islamic views of Homosexuality
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Posted 6/9/09

8bitdoug wrote:

All of you people have interesting views, and many homosexuals (including meh) are thankful for all of them. If everybody took every word of their religion seriously and didn't give thought to it...where would it put us homosexuals? Probably in jail or worse.
I won't hate anybody for not supporting gays because of their religion cause everybody has their own opinions and that can never be changed. Also, some people are more religious than others and that's okay because it is not their fault. As I am not religious, I still think people should follow their own religions as best as they can but not to take the LITERAL meaning of religious text.
:]


I don't think there's anything wrong with being literal. As long as it's just your belief and you don't push it on anybody, it's none of my concern what you believe. But, I am happy to see people being open-minded like this.
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im a chris but im not wasting my time on other ppls personal stuff
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Posted 6/22/09

Yei wrote:

I just watched this interesting documentary called "For the Bible Tells Me So"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY&feature=related), which I would strongly recommend to any Christian.

Sexual orientation is not a choice btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYMjXucTFaM


Anyways, something that always confused me was that if Christianity and Islam were completely against homosexuality, how could there be Christian and Muslim gay activates? I thought the Bible and Quran both clearly said homosexuality was a sin and unacceptable, so how could there be Muslims and Christians saying it is acceptable? This documentary explained a lot for me.

In the past, religions (both Christianity and Islam) were used to justify sexism, making people believe men are higher than women. They were also used to justify racism, apartheid, discrimination, etc. That doesn't mean those religions actually do justify sexism and racism, it just means they could be used to do so. So verses from the Bible/Quran could be manipulated in ways to incite hate in people, that's a very normal application of religion in the past.

First of all, let's start with the Bible. If you ask the average Christian what the Bible says about homosexuality, if they are somewhat knowledgeable, they would say that it says homosexuality is an abomination. There are about 6 or 7 mentions of homosexuality in scripture, two of the most common ones in Leviticus.

Leviticus 18:22:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.


Leviticus 20:13

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


What most people don't realize, is the Bible also says it's an abomination to eat shrimp or rabbit. When reading the Bible or Quran it is extremely important that you do not take a verse out of context and literally. If we look at that verse in the proper historical context, we see that God uses abomination over and over, and it means "against their tradition" or "against ritual." God's not talking about homosexuality in general, according to many scholars, the people of that time, the Hebrews, were a group of people trying to increase in population, so Moses was instructing them on how to live. So in the proper context, those verses mean homosexuality would be against what that specific group of people's interests and tradition.

If Christians took all the verses in the Bible as literal and straight forward as these verses are taken, without any consideration of context and time period, there would be alot of problems. According to the Bible people should be killed for working on the Sabbath. And it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery. I don't see many Christians killing people who work on the Sabbath or selling their daughters into slavery. On those verses Christians would say it's not literal, you have to look at the context, you need consider alot of other factors, etc. But on the verses about homosexuality, no, those are clear and straight forward apparently.

The real problem with literalists is the level of hypocrisy that they display. They only take the verses they like literally, and when it comes to the one that says you need to take all you have and give it to the poor, they're not emptying their bank accounts and selling their homes, suddenly, they're trying to find a deeper meaning and looking at context. When people say "what does the Bible say" on an issue, and they quote the Bible directly, that's wrong. That's what the Bible reads, not what Christianity and Jesus really taught about that issue. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. If it was a real important issue, you'd think he'd mention something about it, but Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with it.

It's common knowledge that many Christians don't really read the Bible. They don't really know what's in it, they just usually accept whatever they're told it says. They take someone else's word on what the Bible teaches, and that is a very powerful tool for leaders who want to manipulate people.

Sodom and Gomorrah is another part of the Bible lots of Christians like to use against homosexuality. They say God destroyed the city because all the people there were gay. According to many scholars, the story has very little to do with homosexuality. Lot invited in the two angels and treated them well, the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were bad people and made a rule that no one could be hospitable to guests because they would steal their wealth, or something along those lines. So they demanded that the two guests be handed over to them, some versions say they said they wanted to rape them, some say "know" them. Regardless, the city got destroyed because they were bad people and not because they were all gay.


The Quran never really mentions homosexuality, there's no word for it. The similar, but not exactly the same story of Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot is the only "guidance" for homosexuality that the Quran seems to give:

Sura 7:80-84:


"And Lot, when he said to his people, 'Do ye approach an abomination which no one in all the world ever anticipated you in? Verily, ye approach men with lust rather than women- nay, ye are a people who exceed.' But his people's answer only was to say, 'Turn them out of your village, verily, they are a people who pretend to purity.' But we saved him and his people, except his wife, who was of those who lingered; and we rained down upon them a rain; -- see then how was the end of the sinners!"


Right away, it's very clear this isn't definitive proof that homosexuality is a sin. The key word, according to gay Muslims, is "lust." In Arabic, the word could be interpreted as just rape, so Lot could have been just mad at these guys for constantly raping other guys. But still, it's just a story, it's not definitive evidence that Islam is against homosexuality. And this story is all the Quran says about homosexuality. And it specifically talks about guys and sodomy, it never even mentions lesbians. So it could be easily said that homosexuality is acceptable by Islam.

According to the last consensus by the biggest gay organization in the world (which just happens to be a Muslims one lol), there are about 50 million gay Muslims (who are willing to admit it).

So, homphobia comes more from culture and people's ignorance than religion. In reality both the Bible and Quran do not give any specific guidance or condemnation of homosexuality. The problem with the Bible is that there's no Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic words for these concepts of human sexuality, therefore the translation/interpretation that comes out to look like it's condemning homosexuality is completely misunderstood. In the documentary they go on to explain many more verses that people see as condemning homosexuality.




Sooo, religion was wrongfully used to justify discrimination against women, people of a different race, and now sexual orientation. People are just afraid of anything different, or things they don't understand. You'd think people would have learned something from the past. I don't think Jesus or Muhammed would approve of this hate and discrimination against people just because they have a different sexual orientation. That's wrong and unfair, we're going to look back at this time period after homosexuals get equal rights (which they inevitably will achieve) the same way we look back at the civil rights movement for racial equality, today.




im muslim, and i will tell you how we cleary think of gays.

yes, its conciderd a SIN,

Mohammed the Prophet said

"there is two things im scared that will happen to you (to muslims) weman who walk right and left , with heads like camel's and they are dressed and not in the same time and men who live with each other (gays)"

this is not what he said litrly, as i read it in arapic, its hard to translate...

anyway, we DO have gay people in our community, like any other community, we have our bad and our worng, people who are gay, are going to hell -according to quran-

accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs

and no, i think that IF mohammed was still alive, he will -for sure- not accept the whoel idea of being gay.
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Posted 6/22/09
Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear that the Qur’an and Hadith both condemn homosexuality, and that Muhammad (PBUH,) was a profound homophobe. It would take a lot of work and a lot of desperate lies to make it look otherwise.
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Posted 6/22/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

Yeah, I think it’s pretty clear that the Qur’an and Hadith both condemn homosexuality, and that Muhammad (PBUH,) was a profound homophobe. It would take a lot of work and a lot of desperate lies to make it look otherwise.


I can see that the Hadiths and what the prophet said clearly do condemn it, but what about the Quran? It just repeats the story of Lot over and over and that story doesn't necessarily condemn it, especially when you look at the context.
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Posted 6/22/09 , edited 6/22/09

pudding_Rocks wrote:

im muslim, and i will tell you how we cleary think of gays.

yes, its conciderd a SIN,

Mohammed the Prophet said

"there is two things im scared that will happen to you (to muslims) weman who walk right and left , with heads like camel's and they are dressed and not in the same time and men who live with each other (gays)"

this is not what he said litrly, as i read it in arapic, its hard to translate...

anyway, we DO have gay people in our community, like any other community, we have our bad and our worng, people who are gay, are going to hell -according to quran-

accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs

and no, i think that IF mohammed was still alive, he will -for sure- not accept the whoel idea of being gay.



Where in the Quran does it give guidelines on homosexuality?


accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs


And where's all this info from?^ I've never seen any of that in the Quran or any Hadiths.
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Posted 6/23/09
This was fun at first. But whats up with all the being gay is wrong threads that pop up every other day??????
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Posted 6/23/09

Yei wrote:


pudding_Rocks wrote:

im muslim, and i will tell you how we cleary think of gays.

yes, its conciderd a SIN,

Mohammed the Prophet said

"there is two things im scared that will happen to you (to muslims) weman who walk right and left , with heads like camel's and they are dressed and not in the same time and men who live with each other (gays)"

this is not what he said litrly, as i read it in arapic, its hard to translate...

anyway, we DO have gay people in our community, like any other community, we have our bad and our worng, people who are gay, are going to hell -according to quran-

accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs

and no, i think that IF mohammed was still alive, he will -for sure- not accept the whoel idea of being gay.



Where in the Quran does it give guidelines on homosexuality?


accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs


And where's all this info from?^ I've never seen any of that in the Quran or any Hadiths.



srry i dont really know where it says that, it was something i studied in my 7th grade, in muslim lesson ^^
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Posted 6/23/09 , edited 6/23/09

pudding_Rocks wrote:


Yei wrote:


pudding_Rocks wrote:

im muslim, and i will tell you how we cleary think of gays.

yes, its conciderd a SIN,

Mohammed the Prophet said

"there is two things im scared that will happen to you (to muslims) weman who walk right and left , with heads like camel's and they are dressed and not in the same time and men who live with each other (gays)"

this is not what he said litrly, as i read it in arapic, its hard to translate...

anyway, we DO have gay people in our community, like any other community, we have our bad and our worng, people who are gay, are going to hell -according to quran-

accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs

and no, i think that IF mohammed was still alive, he will -for sure- not accept the whoel idea of being gay.



Where in the Quran does it give guidelines on homosexuality?


accosding mohammed and quran, peoplewhoare gay must be helped by people around them, like there parents, and they must be well educated about gays and sexualortations, a boy must know from the time he is a kid, that a boy is meant to love , live and marry a female.

so if a guy turnes out gay, his parents are going to be punished in the last day of life -accordin to the quran-
50% of the proplem relay on parents and reletevs


And where's all this info from?^ I've never seen any of that in the Quran or any Hadiths.



srry i dont really know where it says that, it was something i studied in my 7th grade, in muslim lesson ^^


I will research where it talks about homosexuality and post it in this thread. Btw when it comes to Islam take what Seraph says as a grain of salt he isnt muslim.

Meh this is something I pulled up quick. I will also get my dads response to it as well as he is good with finding quotes from the Quran and putting it into context.

Islamic view about Homosexuality
Zafar Khan



Homosexuality is not allowed in Islam. There are various verses in Quran where Allah clearly says about Homosexuality.

We also (sent) Lut: he said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." - Holy Quran 7:80-81

"Of all the creatures in the world will ye approach males". "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" - Holy Quran 26:165-166

The end result for not giving up homosexuality was the destruction of entire cities

When Our decree issued We turned (the cities) upside down and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay spread layer on layer Marked as from thy Lord: nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! - Holy Quran 11:82-83

The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .

We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.

Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God's law that sees homosexuality as gross sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God's law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.

For a person who asks, "why me?" We know God is the Most Merciful and Just (16:90) and He will give each one of us a fair test and a fair chance. He assigns the tests to suite each one of us and we believe that He will never burden any soul beyond its means (23:2).

And We have explained to man in this Qur'an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!- Holy Quran 17:89

We have explained in detail in this Qur'an for the benefit of mankind every kind of similitude: but man is in most things contentious. - Holy Quran 18:54

We have put forth for men in this Qur'an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. - Holy Quran 39:27

The spouses that God have made from among ourselves are those that aid in producing children. Since the spouses in homosexual relationship would not produce children they are not the spouses God made from among ourselves.

And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature. And made for you out of them sons and daughters and grandchildren and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things and be ungrateful for Allah's favors? - Holy Quran 16:72

With regard to dealing with homosexuals, the basic rule governing this would be 60:8 & 9.
Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith and drive you out of your homes and support (others) in driving you out from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances) that do wrong. - Holy Quran 60:8-9

However, to be a winner we have to advocate righteousness and forbid evil.

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity. - Holy Quran 3:104

Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind enjoining what is right forbidding what is wrong and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith it were best for them; among them are some who have faith but most of them are perverted transgressors. - Holy Quran 3:110

The believers men and women are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers practice regular charity and obey Allah and His apostle. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power Wise. - Holy Quran 9:71

Also, if God so wills, a reminder may benefit the person.

On their account no responsibility falls on the righteous but (their duty) is to remind them that they may (learn to) fear Allah. - Holy Quran 6:69

Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer). - Holy Quran 87:9

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Posted 6/23/09 , edited 6/23/09
To be honest Islam doesnt tolerate homosexuality at all. I read some Hadiths today mentioning that if two people of the same sex engage in sexual activities they should be stoned.
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Posted 6/24/09 , edited 6/24/09

drizza wrote:






So the only thing in the Quran that condemns homosexuality is the story of Lot and what he said to the people in Sodom and Gomorrah? Couldn't scholars easily find a less "face value" interpretation of that story by considering a very thorough understanding of the context? If it's the exact same version as the Bible story, then God could have been just really angry about the homosexual raping part, and not just the homosexuality. These people wanted to rape some angels, who were guests at Lot's house, that's different than just being a homosexual.



drizza wrote:

To be honest Islam doesnt tolerate homosexuality at all. I read some Hadiths today mentioning that if two people of the same sex engage in sexual activities they should be stoned.


lol the verses from the Quran you posted earlier say something different.. This I know can't be right, because Islam is a religion of peace with a just and fair, non-barbaric God. What I've noticed is that the more barbaric and crazy stuff is in the Hadiths and the way Hadiths were established is very suspicious:



They were finally written down 100 years after the prophet died? I can't remember something someone said for a day, but this was 100 years. People who who originally heard the prophet must have all died and the ones who wrote them down heard them from other people. And then they realized some were not right, so they had to eliminate a whole bunch through some complicated system. Hadiths may be important, but I doubt they're the most reliable source for Islamic teachings, I think some of the people who wrote the Hadiths sort of secretly put in some of their culture in them. Stoning is not condoned in the Quran at all, and it's one of the most disgusting and cruel acts humans have ever come up with. It must have been common in the time period that Hadiths were written in, so it somehow got into the Hadiths.

I remember one Hadith quoted the prophet as saying judgment day won't come until the Muslims kill all the Jews. I'm pretty sure the prophet was not an anti-Semite, and that God isn't racist. When I told that one to my Muslim friend (an Ahmadijja Muslim), he said even if it's in a Hadith, it's obvious the prophet never said that, you need to use common sense.

And btw, you should watch this new documentary called "A Jihad for Love"
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Posted 6/24/09 , edited 6/24/09
Yea well I just quoted an Hadith and like I said I dont take too many seriously. I dont believe following Hadiths is mandatory also it is just some documentations of stuff the prophet went through. But it is hard to trace the credibility of it. Sometimes people even make up Hadiths such as the virgin myth often heard by our media. Often when you go to mosques you dont get taught Islam through Hadiths you get taught through the Quran.

There is probably more in the Quran about it but like I said I am not very good at opening it and finding the right quotes this is why I am seeking help from my dad. But none the less to sum it up no the Quran doesnt teach to kill a homosexual but it does condemn it.

More quotes

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (The Noble Quran, 26:165-166)"

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. (The Noble Quran, 4:15)" If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free.

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes.

"We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (The Noble Quran, 7:80)"

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"

"(We also sent) Lut (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? (The Noble Quran, 27:54)"

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"

"A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. (The Noble Quran, 24:1-2)"

"Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (The Noble Quran, 17:32)"

"O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with God, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to God for the forgiveness (of their sins): for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 60:12)"

Yes there are more that goes past Lut and no where in the Quran does it mention homosexuality as being normal. God realizes it will be around but if they repent and try to change we are instructed to leave them be and God will forgive them just like with any other sin. You can find that quote above.
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Posted 6/24/09 , edited 6/24/09

drizza wrote:

More quotes

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (The Noble Quran, 26:165-166)"


Story of Lot, doesn't necessarily condemn all homosexuality.


"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. (The Noble Quran, 4:15)" If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free.


Lesbianism is definitely not mentioned in the Quran, lewdness is not lesbianism.


"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes.


It's two "persons" not two men, in fact mine even says "a man and a woman" in brackets there.


"We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (The Noble Quran, 7:80)"

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"

"(We also sent) Lut (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? (The Noble Quran, 27:54)"

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"


Story of Lot has it's special context and can be easily seen as not condemning all homosexuality, just those people's crazy homosexual acts (rape) at that time.


Yes there are more that goes past Lut and no where in the Quran does it mention homosexuality as being normal. God realizes it will be around but if they repent and try to change we are instructed to leave them be and God will forgive them just like with any other sin. You can find that quote above.


No where in the Quran does it even mention homosexuality other than the story of Lot. But the problem is I don't understand how it could be considered a sin? Many Muslims read those verses on Lot and can easily say they don't mean homosexuality is wrong, therefore the Quran doesn't give specific guidelines on homosexuality. Obviously the majority of Muslims will want them to mean homosexuality is wrong and would not have a problem with the idea of stoning them, because homophobia is embedded in their culture and societies, people hate anything different or anything they can't understand.

Let's use common sense and morality, homosexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed. (you change your sexual behaviour, but you can't change sexual orientation). Even if you still can't accept that it is biological and natural and cannot be changed, just imagine if it was. That would mean God created them that way, first of all. Second, why would it be a sin? I know why murder is a sin, you're taking away another human's life. I know why rape is a sin, I know why stealing and lying is a sin, I can understand the reasoning behind those. But homosexuality being a sin? I don't get it, two people love each other, they're both happy. They don't hurt anyone else, they don't bother anyone else. Where's the problem, who's the victim there? They can't have kids? Well infertile women can't have kids, are they immoral too? There is no problem, everyone stays happy. And if they have no choice, I don't think it makes any sense at all to say homosexuality is a sin. It would be the same as saying people who are left handed are sinners. That makes no sense, why would that even matter, who's it hurting and they can't even control it. It's the same idea, I believe God is fair and just, and he wouldn't condemn something as beautiful and harmless as two people loving each other.
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Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

More quotes

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!" (The Noble Quran, 26:165-166)"


Story of Lot, doesn't necessarily condemn all homosexuality.


"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. (The Noble Quran, 4:15)" If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free.


Lesbianism is definitely not mentioned in the Quran, lewdness is not lesbianism.


"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes.


It's two "persons" not two men, in fact mine even says "a man and a woman" in brackets there.


"We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (The Noble Quran, 7:80)"

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"

"(We also sent) Lut (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? (The Noble Quran, 27:54)"

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"


Story of Lot has it's special context and can be easily seen as not condemning all homosexuality, just those people's crazy homosexual acts (rape) at that time.


Yes there are more that goes past Lut and no where in the Quran does it mention homosexuality as being normal. God realizes it will be around but if they repent and try to change we are instructed to leave them be and God will forgive them just like with any other sin. You can find that quote above.


No where in the Quran does it even mention homosexuality other than the story of Lot. But the problem is I don't understand how it could be considered a sin? Many Muslims read those verses on Lot and can easily say they don't mean homosexuality is wrong, therefore the Quran doesn't give specific guidelines on homosexuality. Obviously the majority of Muslims will want them to mean homosexuality is wrong and would not have a problem with the idea of stoning them, because homophobia is embedded in their culture and societies, people hate anything different or anything they can't understand.

Let's use common sense and morality, homosexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed. (you change your sexual behaviour, but you can't change sexual orientation). Even if you still can't accept that it is biological and natural and cannot be changed, just imagine if it was. That would mean God created them that way, first of all. Second, why would it be a sin? I know why murder is a sin, you're taking away another human's life. I know why rape is a sin, I know why stealing and lying is a sin, I can understand the reasoning behind those. But homosexuality being a sin? I don't get it, two people love each other, they're both happy. They don't hurt anyone else, they don't bother anyone else. Where's the problem, who's the victim there? They can't have kids? Well infertile women can't have kids, are they immoral too? There is no problem, everyone stays happy. And if they have no choice, I don't think it makes any sense at all to say homosexuality is a sin. It would be the same as saying people who are left handed are sinners. That makes no sense, why would that even matter, who's it hurting and they can't even control it. It's the same idea, I believe God is fair and just, and he wouldn't condemn something as beautiful and harmless as two people loving each other.


Of course the Quran doesnt use words like "gay" and "lesbian" but if you read the quotes and put two and two together you know it is talking about two males/females.

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

We know what mates is it means tow human beings involved with each other. This is a direct quote for males saying we shouldnt approach the same sex but rather the sex we are intended to mate with. If it wasnt clear to which sex males wouldnt have been mentioned.

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes.

My Quran says the same thing men/female this means vice versa. But if you notice the Quran didnt say male and female it said two males engaging in lewd activities. So also in the males field you can put female instead.

The story of Lut is condemning homosexuality, beastuality, rape all of that together. I read the story of lut and watched a movie of it awhile back when I was a little kid I will have to refresh my memory on it to right more on it.

Now lets go to the quotes you didnt mention.

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"

How can you not translate this into homosexual activities. The bold part explains it best. The keyword is lust.

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"

Yet another quote directly addressing homosexual activity.

All the other quotes I mentioned ties up with adultery, fortification etc. Islam speaks about it all and doesnt tolerate it. Now you can take the story of Lut anyway you want but it is there in the Quran and for muslims it is our duty to follow the examples of every prophet. In each story being told there is a lesson to be learned and that story about Lut was defiantly geared for what I mentioned above. Now I am not going to dive into your last paragraph because lol we had this debate on the "gay marriage" thread I respect your opinion and I was just here to show you some quotes the Quran has in it dealing with homosexuality. Like I said in Islam there is no sin to great for God to forgive. If one is a homosexual and truly tries to change God will forgive him. Life is a test everyone has a problem no human being is perfect. Muslims should just believe in God and pray to him and try their best to fix their problems rather then continue them.



Yei
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Posted 6/24/09 , edited 6/24/09

drizza wrote:

Of course the Quran doesnt use words like "gay" and "lesbian" but if you read the quotes and put two and two together you know it is talking about two males/females.

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

We know what mates is it means tow human beings involved with each other. This is a direct quote for males saying we shouldnt approach the same sex but rather the sex we are intended to mate with. If it wasnt clear to which sex males wouldnt have been mentioned.


That's still just a line from the story of Lot. That story and what what Lot says to them doesn't necessarily condemn it. Lot could have just been really surprised that they were raping other guys, raping women is bad enough, but guys is a little too crazy.


If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes.

My Quran says the same thing men/female this means vice versa. But if you notice the Quran didnt say male and female it said two males engaging in lewd activities. So also in the males field you can put female instead.


It says "If two persons (a man and woman)", it doesn't say two men or two women.




Now lets go to the quotes you didnt mention.

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"

How can you not translate this into homosexual activities. The bold part explains it best. The keyword is lust.

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"

Yet another quote directly addressing homosexual activity.


They were raping men and wanted to rape the angels, I think Lot would be more upset with that than just the fact that they were homosexuals. If he arrives and finds that they are raping other men and angels, I don't think the homosexual part is what really would piss him off, the raping part is more of a problem.


All the other quotes I mentioned ties up with adultery, fortification etc. Islam speaks about it all and doesnt tolerate it. Now you can take the story of Lut anyway you want but it is there in the Quran and for muslims it is our duty to follow the examples of every prophet. In each story being told there is a lesson to be learned and that story about Lut was defiantly geared for what I mentioned above. Now I am not going to dive into your last paragraph because lol we had this debate on the "gay marriage" thread I respect your opinion and I was just here to show you some quotes the Quran has in it dealing with homosexuality. Like I said in Islam there is no sin to great for God to forgive. If one is a homosexual and truly tries to change God will forgive him. Life is a test everyone has a problem no human being is perfect. Muslims should just believe in God and pray to him and try their best to fix their problems rather then continue them.


The meaning of the story of Lot could have many interpretations, like don't rape people, don't try to rape angels, don't bother people's house guests, etc. And so it can very easily not be considered as condemning all homosexuality in general with that kind of extreme context.

With religion, the worst thing you can do is follow blindly. You can't put aside morality, rationality or common sense for your religion, because then it just becomes a corruption of the mind. If there was a verse in the Quran that was interpreted as saying being left-handed is a sin, would you just accept it? You need to really think and consider what kind of "person" you think God is and consider the context of the messages he gives. There are verses in the Quran that very plainly say women are less than men, but I can see past that and understand how else it could be interpreted. The problem with this issue is culture and society have mixed too much with the religion, and so both Christians and Muslims are repeating the same ignorant persecution they've committed against (and still are) women and people of other races.

I don't think homosexuality could ever be a sin for the same reasons being a woman or black or left-handed can't be a sin. God created people in his image, and so anything that people feel inside them that doesn't harm anyone can't be a sin. But that's only if God is fair and just, and I think he probably is. Any religion that teaches that God is not just and fair but instead, one that judges people on things they can't control, things that he created them as, can't be right. And I still have faith that Christianity and Islam are well-meaning religions that are just used to justify societies' fears and persecution like they have been used for so many times in the past.
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