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Likud minister proposes Israeli sanctions on US
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Posted 6/10/09 , edited 6/10/09

azera wrote:

If Israel wants to exterminate Hamas so much, why cant they just send their Mossad agents and let the operations go through?


Mossad has been playing a role in taking out Hamas. Izz El-Deen Sobhi Sheikh Khalil, for example, was a senior leader in Hamas who was assassinated in Damascus. Israel hasn’t technically claimed responsibility for this particular operation but it should be noted that Izz El-Deen Sobhi Sheikh Khalil was responsible for the organization of two bus bombing operations which killed 16 Jewish citizens shortly before the ‘accidently,’ explosion of his car. Security officials in Israel did promise to retaliate against Hamas, and then Izz El-Deen coincidently dies? It’s largely accepted that Israel is responsible for this assassination, but what we must remember is that Mossad is actually considered to be better disciplined and trained than the British SAS and American CIA by many observers. We don’t really know everything they’re up to.
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Posted 6/10/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


azera wrote:

If Israel wants to exterminate Hamas so much, why cant they just send their Mossad agents and let the operations go through?


Mossad has been playing a role in taking out Hamas. Izz El-Deen Sobhi Sheikh Khalil, for example, was a senior leader in Hamas who was assassinated in Damascus. Israel hasn’t technically claimed responsibility for this particular operation but it should be noted that Izz El-Deen Sobhi Sheikh Khalil was responsible for the organization of two bus bombing operations which killed 16 Jewish citizens shortly before the ‘accidently,’ explosion of his car. Security officials in Israel did promise to retaliate against Hamas, and then Izz El-Deen coincidently dies? It’s largely accepted that Israel is responsible for this assassination, but what we must remember is that Mossad is actually considered to be better disciplined and trained than the British SAS and American CIA by many observers. We don’t really know everything they’re up to.


They maybe plan another secret operation to take down the current leader of Hamas out, i wonder if they going to be succeed by doing it. Oh wait, assassination attempts will likely to anger the muslims more. So I hope they really dont take my advice.
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Posted 6/10/09

azera wrote:
They maybe plan another secret operation to take down the current leader of Hamas out, i wonder if they going to be succeed by doing it. Oh wait, assassination attempts will likely to anger the muslims more. So I hope they really dont take my advice.


There have been several reports of attempts at the life of Khalid Marshal, the terrorist leader of Hamas, but they have not been successful. Then again, there’s no real evidence for this other than Marsahl’s own testimony and he’s a blatant liar so he could be simply trying to release propaganda against Israel.
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Posted 6/11/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Well, here's the article. Nothing too controversial.Especially whenever you consider America has been putting penalties on Israel for many years: limiting foreign aid and military loans in response to increase settlements in Westbank. Then again, I agree with the penalties and think that all aid and interactions whatsoever should halt until Israel shows some initiative.

This being said the Israeli people never trusted Obama. During the elections I found a poll that showed most Israelites would’ve liked to see Hillary Clinton in office. McCain came in second, followed by every other candidate with Obama in last.

Then again I doubt that the Israeli’s really knew much about his politics when presented with the poll. I’m guessing they saw his name and thought, “Muslim,” and I’m sure uttering that word leaves a bitter taste on their tongue. Not because Islam is bad, but because their expose to Islam has been largely negative.




Thanks for copying the article, I find it's interesting to read the comments out there, though.

Indeed, I find noting new about this article, just it emphasises some points, like how Israel always acts openly and how she always ruins the neutral mediator's image that America try to create. And like how American jewish donors may be used as a pressures on America policy.... this article is full of many interesting points.
Yossi Peled may not be an uninformed man but a frank to extent that makes him unfit for political world.

Regarding to Obama's name, I have disagreed with this point and yet I thought that it may be true when I heard a member of Knesset said about Obama's speech:

"He spoke as Hussein not as Obama", That's so ridiculous.







digs wrote:

Israel should do what's best. Obama has been heavily criticizing them. If I were Israel I would put a strong and hard stamp on Obama with his pacifism to the Muslim world and openly condemning Israel in the midst of the Arabs yet praising them when he is in Israel. If anything Israel needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from the greedy Palestinians and wicket terrorists and Arab nations that condemn them so much.



He didn't criticise them just few words about the settlements. His Good words to the muslim world, shouldn't hurt Israel.

Even though, I see Obama's speech is nothing but words so far and it's ironic that when I was watching him, my little brother -8 years old- passed by and once he saw Obama's on TV, he listened for a few minutes then he head for TV ,
and said to Obama's face: " Lie! Lie!"
I was surprised because he was happy when Obama won even though I never talked to him about political issues or showed my opinion so I asked him: " Hey! Come on, why you said that?"
He said : " They're still in Iraq and many people have been killed there so far".
Really some kids may be more mature than some adults.






drizza wrote:

Lol it is the way a spoiled child acts when they dont get what they want. When the USA finally says no they go into crybaby mode, "Waah we been through the holocaust your suppose to support us waaah!!!" Who cares about them we have no obligation to these people nor should we let them influence our policies in our country. Good I hope the world wont be scared to criticize these criminals as well.




Haven't I said "it is not a joke" why you "lol"ed.

Exactly as you said, but Obama hasn't forgotten to speak about holocaust already 101






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Posted 6/11/09


digs wrote:

Israel should do what's best. Obama has been heavily criticizing them. If I were Israel I would put a strong and hard stamp on Obama with his pacifism to the Muslim world and openly condemning Israel in the midst of the Arabs yet praising them when he is in Israel. If anything Israel needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from the greedy Palestinians and wicket terrorists and Arab nations that condemn them so much.



He didn't criticise them just few words about the settlements. His Good words to the muslim world, shouldn't hurt Israel.

Even though, I see Obama's speech is nothing but words so far and it's ironic that when I was watching him, my little brother -8 years old- passed by and once he saw Obama's on TV, he listened for a few minutes then he head for TV ,
and said to Obama's face: " Lie! Lie!"
I was surprised because he was happy when Obama won even though I never talked to him about political issues or showed my opinion so I asked him: " Hey! Come on, why you said that?"
He said : " They're still in Iraq and many people have been killed there so far".
Really some kids may be more mature than some adults.


He didn't focus on criticizing Israel, but the fact is that around the Arab world, he criticized Israel to try and gain common ground. He also tried to make them feel like the Arab world was a victim of American evil, which isn't true. He tells people what they want to hear. He tries to say the war in Iraq is a war against Muslims, when in fact it is a war for Muslims and their right to democracy and religious freedom. In Iraq there is much fighting and terrorism over Sunni/Shi'ite sect differences, and each group is trying to take over the government. What America is doing now is trying to help establish a democracy that will ensure freedom and peace for all religious groups and to end terrorism. Muslims have died, and yes Americans killed Muslims in Iraq. But this wasn't because they were Muslim, it was because they were terrorists or apart of Sadam's army. We killed terrorists and enemies who happened to be Muslims. It's not a way with or against Islam, in fact America is ensuring Islamic freedom and peace in Iraq with neither the Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, Jews, and all other religious groups can live peacefully and freely under a non theocratic democratic government. i say this because Obama loves two things. 1)saying what people want to hear. 2) blaming Bush for everything and trying to make him look bad. He tolled these world leaders that America was essentially at war with Islam because we hate Muslims, and that's a blatant lie. There are so many things I am angry with Obama about, and many are within his speech, but this thread isn't the right place for me to discuss those things. And you are right, some kids are more mature than adults, and I think it's due to their innocence. If only the world was innocent like children yet wise like the elderly :(
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Posted 6/11/09

digs wrote:



digs wrote:

Israel should do what's best. Obama has been heavily criticizing them. If I were Israel I would put a strong and hard stamp on Obama with his pacifism to the Muslim world and openly condemning Israel in the midst of the Arabs yet praising them when he is in Israel. If anything Israel needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from the greedy Palestinians and wicket terrorists and Arab nations that condemn them so much.



He didn't criticise them just few words about the settlements. His Good words to the muslim world, shouldn't hurt Israel.

Even though, I see Obama's speech is nothing but words so far and it's ironic that when I was watching him, my little brother -8 years old- passed by and once he saw Obama's on TV, he listened for a few minutes then he head for TV ,
and said to Obama's face: " Lie! Lie!"
I was surprised because he was happy when Obama won even though I never talked to him about political issues or showed my opinion so I asked him: " Hey! Come on, why you said that?"
He said : " They're still in Iraq and many people have been killed there so far".
Really some kids may be more mature than some adults.


He didn't focus on criticizing Israel, but the fact is that around the Arab world, he criticized Israel to try and gain common ground. He also tried to make them feel like the Arab world was a victim of American evil, which isn't true. He tells people what they want to hear. He tries to say the war in Iraq is a war against Muslims, when in fact it is a war for Muslims and their right to democracy and religious freedom. In Iraq there is much fighting and terrorism over Sunni/Shi'ite sect differences, and each group is trying to take over the government. What America is doing now is trying to help establish a democracy that will ensure freedom and peace for all religious groups and to end terrorism. Muslims have died, and yes Americans killed Muslims in Iraq. But this wasn't because they were Muslim, it was because they were terrorists or apart of Sadam's army. We killed terrorists and enemies who happened to be Muslims. It's not a way with or against Islam, in fact America is ensuring Islamic freedom and peace in Iraq with neither the Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, Jews, and all other religious groups can live peacefully and freely under a non theocratic democratic government. i say this because Obama loves two things. 1)saying what people want to hear. 2) blaming Bush for everything and trying to make him look bad. He tolled these world leaders that America was essentially at war with Islam because we hate Muslims, and that's a blatant lie. There are so many things I am angry with Obama about, and many are within his speech, but this thread isn't the right place for me to discuss those things. And you are right, some kids are more mature than adults, and I think it's due to their innocence. If only the world was innocent like children yet wise like the elderly :(


I agree of what you said about American spreading democracy, but are you sure they really spreading democracy? It seems to me the Iraqi people wants them out rather than staying in the country. They are making it worse, its not what i said its what they said, but the Americans didnt want hear their voices because they taught the occupation is the right thing to do because its for Democracy. But as a citizens of that country, they dislike it. Some are cursing the Americans, no wonder we muslims hate the west so much. Have you heard about the Blackwater? The private security company that employs contractors to Iraq? Look, they are worse of the worse, they are doing things in their own way without the supervision of the Department of Defense. And they are immune to prosecution! I heard many stories about them killing innocent Iraqis i dont know whether its true or not, and from the book im reading borowed from library currently about the Blackwater, wow seriously they are above the law! Some US soldiers is not during their job well done there, they making the fool of themselves by taunting to local kids, bullying the people there.Go watch it at youtube, there is plenty of them.
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Posted 6/11/09

azera wrote:


digs wrote:



digs wrote:

Israel should do what's best. Obama has been heavily criticizing them. If I were Israel I would put a strong and hard stamp on Obama with his pacifism to the Muslim world and openly condemning Israel in the midst of the Arabs yet praising them when he is in Israel. If anything Israel needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from the greedy Palestinians and wicket terrorists and Arab nations that condemn them so much.



He didn't criticise them just few words about the settlements. His Good words to the muslim world, shouldn't hurt Israel.

Even though, I see Obama's speech is nothing but words so far and it's ironic that when I was watching him, my little brother -8 years old- passed by and once he saw Obama's on TV, he listened for a few minutes then he head for TV ,
and said to Obama's face: " Lie! Lie!"
I was surprised because he was happy when Obama won even though I never talked to him about political issues or showed my opinion so I asked him: " Hey! Come on, why you said that?"
He said : " They're still in Iraq and many people have been killed there so far".
Really some kids may be more mature than some adults.


He didn't focus on criticizing Israel, but the fact is that around the Arab world, he criticized Israel to try and gain common ground. He also tried to make them feel like the Arab world was a victim of American evil, which isn't true. He tells people what they want to hear. He tries to say the war in Iraq is a war against Muslims, when in fact it is a war for Muslims and their right to democracy and religious freedom. In Iraq there is much fighting and terrorism over Sunni/Shi'ite sect differences, and each group is trying to take over the government. What America is doing now is trying to help establish a democracy that will ensure freedom and peace for all religious groups and to end terrorism. Muslims have died, and yes Americans killed Muslims in Iraq. But this wasn't because they were Muslim, it was because they were terrorists or apart of Sadam's army. We killed terrorists and enemies who happened to be Muslims. It's not a way with or against Islam, in fact America is ensuring Islamic freedom and peace in Iraq with neither the Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, Jews, and all other religious groups can live peacefully and freely under a non theocratic democratic government. i say this because Obama loves two things. 1)saying what people want to hear. 2) blaming Bush for everything and trying to make him look bad. He tolled these world leaders that America was essentially at war with Islam because we hate Muslims, and that's a blatant lie. There are so many things I am angry with Obama about, and many are within his speech, but this thread isn't the right place for me to discuss those things. And you are right, some kids are more mature than adults, and I think it's due to their innocence. If only the world was innocent like children yet wise like the elderly :(


I agree of what you said about American spreading democracy, but are you sure they really spreading democracy? It seems to me the Iraqi people wants them out rather than staying in the country. They are making it worse, its not what i said its what they said, but the Americans didnt want hear their voices because they taught the occupation is the right thing to do because its for Democracy. But as a citizens of that country, they dislike it. Some are cursing the Americans, no wonder we muslims hate the west so much. Have you heard about the Blackwater? The private security company that employs contractors to Iraq? Look, they are worse of the worse, they are doing things in their own way without the supervision of the Department of Defense. And they are immune to prosecution! I heard many stories about them killing innocent Iraqis i dont know whether its true or not, and from the book im reading borowed from library currently about the Blackwater, wow seriously they are above the law! Some US soldiers is not during their job well done there, they making the fool of themselves by taunting to local kids, bullying the people there.Go watch it at youtube, there is plenty of them.


You are right that most Iraqis want Americans out, but from an American's perspective it's important to stay until a stable democratic government has been established and can care for itself. The Iraqi people as a majority might want us out, but when Obama gave a pull-out plan to the Iraqi president he said we can't leave that soon. The Iraqi government wants us there because the troops help prevent and stop the terrorism. I think we should get the job done quickly, but I think we should stay until it is done. If we leave now we risk a shadow government or a terrorist government taking control. Right now some of the terrorist attacks and suicide bombings are attacks against the government of Iraq and to try and set up an alternative dictatorship like what Sadam put those poor people through. Right now Iraq is a very hostile area with a new and weak government. The need protection while they establish their own defense force and police force to protect them from terrorists and guerrilla opposition. And some US soldiers do goof off and do a poor job, and I think the army needs to crack down on them. Although, those issues reside within the individual soldiers choices and they do not reflect the will of the US government or our policies. They 99% of the time do not go unpunished.
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Posted 6/11/09 , edited 6/11/09

digs wrote:


azera wrote:


digs wrote:



digs wrote:

Israel should do what's best. Obama has been heavily criticizing them. If I were Israel I would put a strong and hard stamp on Obama with his pacifism to the Muslim world and openly condemning Israel in the midst of the Arabs yet praising them when he is in Israel. If anything Israel needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from the greedy Palestinians and wicket terrorists and Arab nations that condemn them so much.



He didn't criticise them just few words about the settlements. His Good words to the muslim world, shouldn't hurt Israel.

Even though, I see Obama's speech is nothing but words so far and it's ironic that when I was watching him, my little brother -8 years old- passed by and once he saw Obama's on TV, he listened for a few minutes then he head for TV ,
and said to Obama's face: " Lie! Lie!"
I was surprised because he was happy when Obama won even though I never talked to him about political issues or showed my opinion so I asked him: " Hey! Come on, why you said that?"
He said : " They're still in Iraq and many people have been killed there so far".
Really some kids may be more mature than some adults.


He didn't focus on criticizing Israel, but the fact is that around the Arab world, he criticized Israel to try and gain common ground. He also tried to make them feel like the Arab world was a victim of American evil, which isn't true. He tells people what they want to hear. He tries to say the war in Iraq is a war against Muslims, when in fact it is a war for Muslims and their right to democracy and religious freedom. In Iraq there is much fighting and terrorism over Sunni/Shi'ite sect differences, and each group is trying to take over the government. What America is doing now is trying to help establish a democracy that will ensure freedom and peace for all religious groups and to end terrorism. Muslims have died, and yes Americans killed Muslims in Iraq. But this wasn't because they were Muslim, it was because they were terrorists or apart of Sadam's army. We killed terrorists and enemies who happened to be Muslims. It's not a way with or against Islam, in fact America is ensuring Islamic freedom and peace in Iraq with neither the Sunnis, Shi'ites, Christians, Jews, and all other religious groups can live peacefully and freely under a non theocratic democratic government. i say this because Obama loves two things. 1)saying what people want to hear. 2) blaming Bush for everything and trying to make him look bad. He tolled these world leaders that America was essentially at war with Islam because we hate Muslims, and that's a blatant lie. There are so many things I am angry with Obama about, and many are within his speech, but this thread isn't the right place for me to discuss those things. And you are right, some kids are more mature than adults, and I think it's due to their innocence. If only the world was innocent like children yet wise like the elderly :(


I agree of what you said about American spreading democracy, but are you sure they really spreading democracy? It seems to me the Iraqi people wants them out rather than staying in the country. They are making it worse, its not what i said its what they said, but the Americans didnt want hear their voices because they taught the occupation is the right thing to do because its for Democracy. But as a citizens of that country, they dislike it. Some are cursing the Americans, no wonder we muslims hate the west so much. Have you heard about the Blackwater? The private security company that employs contractors to Iraq? Look, they are worse of the worse, they are doing things in their own way without the supervision of the Department of Defense. And they are immune to prosecution! I heard many stories about them killing innocent Iraqis i dont know whether its true or not, and from the book im reading borowed from library currently about the Blackwater, wow seriously they are above the law! Some US soldiers is not during their job well done there, they making the fool of themselves by taunting to local kids, bullying the people there.Go watch it at youtube, there is plenty of them.


You are right that most Iraqis want Americans out, but from an American's perspective it's important to stay until a stable democratic government has been established and can care for itself. The Iraqi people as a majority might want us out, but when Obama gave a pull-out plan to the Iraqi president he said we can't leave that soon. The Iraqi government wants us there because the troops help prevent and stop the terrorism. I think we should get the job done quickly, but I think we should stay until it is done. If we leave now we risk a shadow government or a terrorist government taking control. Right now some of the terrorist attacks and suicide bombings are attacks against the government of Iraq and to try and set up an alternative dictatorship like what Sadam put those poor people through. Right now Iraq is a very hostile area with a new and weak government. The need protection while they establish their own defense force and police force to protect them from terrorists and guerrilla opposition. And some US soldiers do goof off and do a poor job, and I think the army needs to crack down on them. Although, those issues reside within the individual soldiers choices and they do not reflect the will of the US government or our policies. They 99% of the time do not go unpunished.


No I disagree that's not from an American perspective that is from a few crazed neo-cons running our foreign policy. We Americans were lied into this war as our media desperately tried to link Iraq with 9/11. Now instead of acknowledging the lie we change it to war for a Democratic nation. So we pour billions of dollars a month into this war displacing many Iraqis and drawing more hate for our country for what a damn lie? When we going to go to war with China and make them into a democracy or how about North Korea? We gotta stop covering up this damn lie with Iraq. There is no end to this war we was lied to remember, "This war will be a cake walk we will be out in a couple of weeks"? How do we as Americans listen to the same lies over and just get hoodwinked into it. I am sick of the lies lets just pull out and see what happens but all this fear mongering talk, "If we leave they will attack us". With what proof do we have to back that claim and do we even ask themselves why they would want to attack us? They never attacked us before and if it wasnt for our damn meddling in the middle east we wouldnt have to worry about Sadam Hussien coming into power. So enough with the lies from our damn government and we should not be repeating them.

I am telling you we dont come to our senses we will never leave the middle east. We will have a permanent presence there just like we do in many of our bases around the world. Our economy cannot afford it and it is draining our resources. If you cared about the troops you will let them know enough is enough stop dieing over a bag of lies in the interest of a few crazed people in our government.
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Posted 6/11/09 , edited 6/11/09

drizza wrote:
No I disagree that's not from an American perspective that is from a few crazed neo-cons running our foreign policy.


Actually, I think we should stay Iraq. I think going into Iraq was a mistake, but now that we’re there leaving is childish and foolish. America has a tendency to go in and make promises to the locals in exchange for support. One example is that we promised anti-tyranny entities in Iraq that we would train them, supply them, and protect them until democracy was instilled and they could maintain that democracy themselves. You see, people are afraid to stand up to tyranny, but when they think: “We have the entire western armada protecting us,” they’re much more willing to take the initiative.

So, under our promise of protection they rise up for American ideals such as freedom and democracy. These people know they don’t stand a chance without us, but when they know there’s a real chance to make a difference they’ll stand up and sacrifice themselves for that cause. I do not think it is fair to let give off the impression of that possibility, get people to act, and then pull out so that our allies can die for nothing.

The sad thing is that we do this a lot. The Green Berets, for example, are perhaps the most renowned of all Special Forces in American history, but the general public doesn’t actually know what they did. They’re not there to gather intelligence, that’s the CIA. They’re not there to deal with assassinations or hostage situations, both of those duties are dealt with by the Navy Seals. Delta Force is pretty much the same thing as the British SAS, and the army is more or less there to waste enemy ammunition so that their terrorists don’t have anything left to shoot when our specialists arrive. The Green Berets, however, had a much more specific function. They are pretty much the most specialized special forces at our disposal.

So, what do they do? They train and supply foreigners so that they can defend themselves. They show them how to maintain a standing army, and share US combat tactics. They get down in the dirt with the individuals and instill a rank system so that even after they leave training can continue.

So, we jump in and tell these people: we’ll teach you to defend your freedom. We’ll stay here long enough to give you a fighting chance. Then we fail to deliver and 9/11 happens. This entire war would’ve been avoided if we hadn’t pulled out the last time we went into the Middle East. North Korea wouldn’t be crucifying, executing, and enslaving Christians right now if we hadn’t bailed out in Vietnam.

Americans need to realize that war is not a game. Staying in Iraq is the perfect way to send that message. That way, next time something goes down, we’ll really think: are we willing to make this commitment.




We Americans were lied into this war as our media desperately tried to link Iraq with 9/11.


I don’t recall anybody except maybe Fox News blaming Iraq for 9/11. As I remember it, most of our major media pointed out that this was the act of terrorist organizations, not nations. In fact, I remember Bush making a point out of the fact that we’re not fighting the Iraqi people but rather the terrorists who’re abusing them. I also remember the WMD’s which weren’t there. That’s actually why I supported the war. Iraq is too torn by civil strife and there is too much vying for power, there’s too much inconsistency in the Iraq government to let it carry so much power.

This being said, they were wrong about the WMD’s, which in my experience was the main motivator in America’s support for the war. That’s just based on my memory, which isn’t flawless. I was pretty young back then, but that’s what I remember the main cornerstone of the media being to justify going into Iraq. Bush also used international pressure to keep North Korea from going nuclear, but everybody’s okay with that. Well, honestly, I’m not afraid of North Korea. Even if they had nuclear strike capabilities, I don’t think they’d use them. What would they gain from it? It wouldn’t surprise me if Iraq, on the other hand, fired a nuke regardless of international back lash.

I think that the problem with Bush’s method of running this war is that his strategy amounted to bombing Iraq into the Dark Age. The problem is, once they got there they didn’t notice the difference. Anyway, there were no WMD, but that wasn’t a lie. It was misinformation, and not only on the American intelligence. Russia, England, and the United Nations all came to the same conclusion. It was just bad luck that all this evidence amounted to nothing. But, I given that everyone had the same conclusion, I don’t think it’s fair to criticize any of the intelligence agencies for their error-because apparently anybody would’ve thought the same exact thing.

So, given the information available back then, I think that the decision was logical. I also think that, now that we’re there, and we ALL agreed to going (democrats try to pretend that they weren’t in on the war, but when congress voted only TWO democrats were against it,) we need to stop making excuses and claiming that we were deceived and actually live with the consequences of or actions. We pull out now and all the progress we’ve made has been wasted.







Now instead of acknowledging the lie we change it to war for a Democratic nation. So we pour billions of dollars a month into this war displacing many Iraqis and drawing more hate for our country for what a damn lie? When we going to go to war with China and make them into a democracy or how about North Korea?


North Korea and China aren't a threat to us in their lack of democracy. Iraq is...or, not really. It would've been if it had WMD. But it didn't. But we thought it did, so going in made perfect sense. (In my opinion.) But, when we found out we were mistaken (making the operation a mistake,) it was too late to pull out.


We gotta stop covering up this damn lie with Iraq. There is no end to this war we was lied to remember, "This war will be a cake walk we will be out in a couple of weeks"?


Nobody told us that. Iraq has a powerful military and doesn't fight by the rules. None of us had heard of Iraq of Iraq so we assumed they were weak, but I actually think (and may be wrong,) Iraq spends more money on its military than the United Kingdom. We were all so ignorant and arrogant that we just assumed of our own that we could end it quick. But, that's not the reality of the matter. In truth, war takes years, and Iraq is strong.

However, I do think that this war would've gone way better if Bush wasn't our commander and chief. I think that he ran the operation poorly, ignore his advisors, and went on an ego trip. I'm also tempted to question his motives, but sense we can't produce any evidence I'll refrain. The fact that Saddam tried to assassinate his father should be noted.


How do we as Americans listen to the same lies over and just get hoodwinked into it. I am sick of the lies lets just pull out and see what happens but all this fear mongering talk, "If we leave they will attack us". With what proof do we have to back that claim and do we even ask themselves why they would want to attack us? They never attacked us before and if it wasnt for our damn meddling in the middle east we wouldnt have to worry about Sadam Hussien coming into power. So enough with the lies from our damn government and we should not be repeating them.


They may not have attacked us but they are a threat to our security because they support the people who did attack us. That would be like if the KKK started a war with…say, I don’t know, Mexico. Then we started giving them money and hiding them from justice. We haven’t directly attacked Mexico, but we are a danger to Mexico’s security.


I am telling you we dont come to our senses we will never leave the middle east. We will have a permanent presence there just like we do in many of our bases around the world. Our economy cannot afford it and it is draining our resources. If you cared about the troops you will let them know enough is enough stop dieing over a bag of lies in the interest of a few crazed people in our government.


Have you ever sat down and watched one of those documentaries where they interview veterans and noticed that a lot of these guys say they’re from Oklahoma? Maybe it’s just because that’s where I’m squatting right now, but I have and I never thought anything of it…until I realized that Oklahoma’s population is between 3-4 million while California’s population is between 30-40 million. Oklahoma also happens to be a Republican state.

I did some quick research and realized that republican states across the nation are sending a larger percentage of their population to fight in Iraq. Ironically it is also the republican states that support the war, and if you’ve ever talked with the veterans who come back from the war most of them seem to have been happy to serve their country. Don’t forget that whenever 9/11 came around military recruiters made a fortune because young men came flooding into their offices to enlist. Do you remember CNN showing the lines that stretched 30 blocks of nothing but men ready to enlist?

Now, I’m speaking from experience. On this note I’m not sure what the statistics say. But so far, the people I’ve seen opposing the war are the families of the troops. The troops themselves, however, mostly seem to support it. So, if I’m really going to support our troops in their decision, I’m going to support the war. If I care about what the troops want, I support the war.


But alas, the bottom line is that our economy CAN’T afford the war so we have no real choice but to pull out…. Oh, wait! Obama actually wants to send our troops to Afghanistan now! So THAT’S what he meant when he promised change! A war with somebody else!

Here’s my opinion, my honest opinion. America needs to stop with this childish flaky shit and make up its mind. Either we commit and fix the hell hole that is the Middle East and Iraq, or we stop butting into other people’s business because we’re just making shit worse.

Come on, throughout the history of mankind, when has putting a white person in a nation of not-white people ever been a good thing? Did it work out for the British in African, India, China, or Palestine? Did it work out well for the Natives when Americans tumbled up to Oregon? How about when we took Oklahoma from the Red Man, or Texas from Mexico?
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Posted 6/11/09 , edited 6/11/09


Well for the security of our country I dont think we should stay in Iraq as the Iraqis themselves want us out and now there is Al-Qaeda when there wasnt before we invaded. We have oil contractors and companies such as Haliburton benefiting from this war as well. We opened up the torture facility Abu Ghraib which also fueled even more resistance. We are killing innocent civilians and displacing them. This war and you know it would not had happen if there was no 9-11. That incident did play a big factor and during the war propaganda going on I watched many our outlets and they were all for it. People like Jesse Ventura (was paid for not doing any interviews as well), Phil Donue and there were others I dont remember their names off the top was fired for disagreeing with the war. Even Ron Paul mentioned the war was already being planned for Iraq many years back but the government was trying to figure out how to start it. Seeing how Americans was vowing for revenge this was the best opportunity to attack them. Now as far as misinformation no I still consider this a lie because they was just making up areas such as hidden caves or whatever it could be at without any sound proof. If you notice now instead we are covering up this whole WMD incident to save face and all of a sudden it turned into a war for democracy.

Is this what America is going to do now go to war with nations who arent democratic? Act as if we are the world police? We have no proof these arab countries will use nukes and how can we who used the weapons tell another country not to? Thats extremely hypocritical. Now your saying we should go to war with them because they supported terror if thats so then why didnt they use that excuse? We might as well go to war with Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iran because they supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. Like a never ending cycle in the middle east and all we do is support corrupt government/leaders this is why we are hated. If we want to fix relations we need to leave these arabs alone let them live how they were USA/Israel turned that whole area into a warzone. Like you said how Korea and China is not a threat to us I am trying to figure out how the hell Iraq all of a sudden became a threat to us. Are we trying to weaken any arab nation able to stand up against Israel? Just curious because if you notice many of our pro Israel lobbies and organizations is pretty much pro whatever war we do in the middle east.

Since when does America pre preemptively start wars hell I thought in the Constitution the president doesnt have the power to single handly take his country into war? Right now the US Constitution is just a piece of paper politicians pay lip service to but dont follow it at all. Now as for Iraq having a powerful military I disagree I believe they are using gorilla warfare tactics the same as Vietnam. They know their area and we dont in fact this war is looking exactly like Vietnam. As Ron Paul said as soon as we pulled all of our troops out of that region we became friends with Vietnam, traded with them etc. So how about we give that chance with Iraqis?

As far as recruiters being flooded after 9-11 yes I remember hearing this but this was for 9-11.. not Iraq so I believe our government used this to their advantage as well. Yes I agree with you on Obama like I said he is just a man who makes speeches but cant act on any of the changes he ran on in his platform. I never did trust the guy to after his speech in AIPAC for the first time it was the same as every other president before him. Bowing down showing loyalty to Israel etc. When he got elected the people who he appointed especially his economic advisers were the same people who got us into this mess. There is so much more but about the only positive thing to say about Obama is that at least he is killing the ignorant stereotype about African Americans and also many who are racist towards them dont have to worry about a Black President who's name has Hussien in it. He wont turn this country into the hood or some muslim state.

My bottom line is leave the middle east alone. These people done nothing to us and I agree with Ron Paul had it not been with all the meddling we done there maybe there wouldn't be a 9-11 because I still refuse to believe the notion we was attacked only because we are rich and prosperous. After researching our activities in the middle east hell I wouldn't like Americans myself. All this hate is fueling extremism and we just taking in all the blow back.

Sorry for getting off topic but lol seems like on these middle easts threads everything ties up.
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Posted 6/12/09
Lets just stop here, i also have to stop......its totally out of topic...from Israel to Iraq...damn thats far
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As I said before, I do not support the way the war is being run. I do not believe in torture. I do not think that air-strikes are an effective method of fighting terror. This is exactly the mistake Israel made in Gaza. Not willing to risk their troops they instead relied heavily on air-craft, artillery, and bombs which are indiscriminate and inexorably maximize civilian casualties. Israel did take some initiative and release fliers, make calls, send texts, and try to evacuate Palestinians with foreign passports. The problem is that even if you send these people fair warning that they need to leave, that doesn’t generate a place for them to go. This is especially true in Gaza for obvious reasons.

I agree that the war has exacerbated the circumstances and actually hurt our international security. However, that’s why I support a revolution in the methods we’re employing. That’s one reason I wanted McCain. He himself was a POW and does not support torture, and I rather think that as somebody who was held against the Geneva Convention he would’ve done more to insure American soldiers were following international law. He’s also of a superior intellect when compared to Bush, and he’s got more military experience than Barrack Obama, Bush, and both the Clintons combined. In addition, he’s not a disgusting liar like Bush or Obama. He even admitted that he was using the spoiler system (as was Obama,) and that he’d supported Bush on a lot of unpopular decisions simply as a matter of supporting the president. That’s exactly what he’s doing with Obama, too, and that makes me question his worth as a senator.

Which leads me to another thing you mentioned, the president cannot start a war alone and he didn’t start a war alone. Bush had the support of the Senate, the House-so all of Congress-and the support of the American people. Again, Congress voted on rather or not to declare war and only two democrats opposed it.

Iraq, as I said, is dangerous because there’s too much political strife. Korea is a communist country, but it’s a firm one. There’s no risk of a terrorist organization within North Korea taking power of the North Korean military and launching nuclear missiles at us. Iraq’s a different story. The government does not seem to have control. The military does, and it happens that many of these people governing the military are also terrorist operatives or supporters. They would gladly sacrifice the state of Iraq if it meant taking America with them. Their religious views tell them that they will receive an eternity with virgins in paradise if they do just that.

I know you don’t believe that there are Muslims that believe in Houri, but you can actually go onto the PMW website and see suicide bombers and martyrs making last speeches in which they provide comfort for their families by saying: “Remember I’ll be in paradise with the heavenly virgins,” and similar such comments.

Similarly, Palestine isn’t going to get its hands on WMD. So, democratic or no, it’s not a threat to us. Korea can be trusted, in my opinion, with nukes because Korea is interested in Korean growth. Korea isn’t stupid enough to think it will benefit from using WMDs. Iraq, on the other hand, knows it won’t get away with using WMDs but may still do it because many of the individuals with authority in their military dictatorship don’t care about Iraq. They care about religious martyrdom. The ultimate form of this would be to fire a nuke at America and let their entire nation go out as martyrs.

But, you’re right. The war wouldn’t have happened without 9/11. Which sickens me because 9/11 was the result of individual actions. That would be like going to war with America because an American gang did something, or faulting Israel for the actions of the Stern Gang. These were individuals, not nations, and the nations cannot be held responsible. They can simply be urged to make a difference.

As far as weakening any country that can threaten Israel, get real. Iraq couldn’t dream of taking Israel down. I actually think Israel is more secure than American. America has all this martial power but doesn’t have the political support of its own people to sue it. We’re spoiled. The Israelites are living their lives in fear, being bombed constantly. They’re desperate for a sense of security, and that gives them the resolve to fight. America lacks that because we’ve never experience anything like what the Israelites go through every day. The same is true of the Palestinians.

Israel is indomitable. I don't think if America joined the Arab League and tried to exterminate the Jews they would succeed. For one thing, Israel has nukes. And if threatened with being destroyed will no longer have any reason to keep from using them.

By the way, I don't think it's hypocritical for us to own nuclear weapons while telling Iraq they cannot own nuclear weapons. That’s like saying that it’s hypocritical to tell somebody they can’t set eggs on the edge of the counter if you have eggs sitting firmly on the dining room table and wrapped in fluff. America isn’t so concerned about France, England, Israel, India, or China owning nuclear weapons: and they do, and we don’t care. They’re stable. Iraq is not. When Iraq gets a stable government that isn’t willing to start WWIII for religious glory then I have no problem with them having as many nukes as anyone else. Besides, America has about 2,600 more than anyone so…whatever.

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I am not gonig to get way off topic so I am going to respond to your suicide part. Yes there are some extreme muslims I cannot deny this. I do not think every muslim is peaceful they are human just like us so matter what religion they are they will still do what they want. The ones that kill themselves thinking they will go to heaven and promised virgins are not looked upon like heroes around the muslim world. In fact many of us want them to stop because we know how the media is and they are using this to show people around the world thus damaging the religion. But seeing how America/Israel occupation in certain regions are this is how they will respond. They dont have advance military weapons like we do.

I just hate how the media see's a small group of muslims and try to put that as the religion teaching this to further the propaganda in the middle east. Semion Mogilevich a jew was considered the boss of bosses in the Russian mafia. He was considered the worlds most dangerous man. I am not going to into what he done I will post the link to the fbi website. Now do we take what this man done and try to blame his religion? Try to misquote the Torah? http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/alert/mogilevich_s.htm
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drizza wrote:

I am not gonig to get way off topic so I am going to respond to your suicide part. Yes there are some extreme muslims I cannot deny this. I do not think every muslim is peaceful they are human just like us so matter what religion they are they will still do what they want. The ones that kill themselves thinking they will go to heaven and promised virgins are not looked upon like heroes around the muslim world. In fact many of us want them to stop because we know how the media is and they are using this to show people around the world thus damaging the religion. But seeing how America/Israel occupation in certain regions are this is how they will respond. They dont have advance military weapons like we do.

I just hate how the media see's a small group of muslims and try to put that as the religion teaching this to further the propaganda in the middle east. Semion Mogilevich a jew was considered the boss of bosses in the Russian mafia. He was considered the worlds most dangerous man. I am not going to into what he done I will post the link to the fbi website. Now do we take what this man done and try to blame his religion? Try to misquote the Torah? http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/alert/mogilevich_s.htm


Well, Muslims in America do not acknowledge the martyrs as heroes, I’ll agree on that note. However, this is not true of Muslims in the Arab world, most of which do view Hamas and similar terrorist organizations employing suicide bombings in the name of The One True God as heroes. People like to sugar coat that and pretend it’s not true because we want to be open minded, and that’s good. It just doesn’t provide any revelation into the truth that-throughout the Arab world, Islam is a very different thing than it is in the western world. The Middle Eastern ummah does, largely support suicide bombers.



Over the last two years, the issue of suicide attacks or "martyrdom operations" against Israel has dominated public discussion throughout the Arab world. Since the outbreak of the current Palestinian intifada, in September 2000, the Palestinian resort to suicide attacks has won widespread Arab public acceptance as a legitimate form of resistance against Israeli occupation. Some Muslim clerics and other commentators justify them on political, moral, and religious grounds. Even those attackers who bomb and kill women and children are hailed as martyrs for their heroism in confronting the enemy.



http://www.meforum.org/530/must-innocents-die-the-islamic-debate-over

It's a debate even in the Arab world, but most of the Muslims there are on the side of the martyrs.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/6/arab-and-muslim-perceptions-of-the-united-states

But, Pew Research shows that the image of America is going up, terrorism down in the Middle East. It's still widly supported, but not as much as it was before the publicity.
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Posted 6/12/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


drizza wrote:

I am not gonig to get way off topic so I am going to respond to your suicide part. Yes there are some extreme muslims I cannot deny this. I do not think every muslim is peaceful they are human just like us so matter what religion they are they will still do what they want. The ones that kill themselves thinking they will go to heaven and promised virgins are not looked upon like heroes around the muslim world. In fact many of us want them to stop because we know how the media is and they are using this to show people around the world thus damaging the religion. But seeing how America/Israel occupation in certain regions are this is how they will respond. They dont have advance military weapons like we do.

I just hate how the media see's a small group of muslims and try to put that as the religion teaching this to further the propaganda in the middle east. Semion Mogilevich a jew was considered the boss of bosses in the Russian mafia. He was considered the worlds most dangerous man. I am not going to into what he done I will post the link to the fbi website. Now do we take what this man done and try to blame his religion? Try to misquote the Torah? http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/alert/mogilevich_s.htm


Well, Muslims in America do not acknowledge the martyrs as heroes, I’ll agree on that note. However, this is not true of Muslims in the Arab world, most of which do view Hamas and similar terrorist organizations employing suicide bombings in the name of The One True God as heroes. People like to sugar coat that and pretend it’s not true because we want to be open minded, and that’s good. It just doesn’t provide any revelation into the truth that-throughout the Arab world, Islam is a very different thing than it is in the western world. The Middle Eastern ummah does, largely support suicide bombers.



Over the last two years, the issue of suicide attacks or "martyrdom operations" against Israel has dominated public discussion throughout the Arab world. Since the outbreak of the current Palestinian intifada, in September 2000, the Palestinian resort to suicide attacks has won widespread Arab public acceptance as a legitimate form of resistance against Israeli occupation. Some Muslim clerics and other commentators justify them on political, moral, and religious grounds. Even those attackers who bomb and kill women and children are hailed as martyrs for their heroism in confronting the enemy.



http://www.meforum.org/530/must-innocents-die-the-islamic-debate-over

It's a debate even in the Arab world, but most of the Muslims there are on the side of the martyrs.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/6/arab-and-muslim-perceptions-of-the-united-states

But, Pew Research shows that the image of America is going up, terrorism down in the Middle East. It's still widly supported, but not as much as it was before the publicity.


Well in response to your first website I dont think this is a real middle eastern website sponsored by arabs because when I go to the homepage I see, "Islamists terror, Terror against Israel" In one thread I made a post how zionist and US will try to create websites such as that to fool the reader into thinking it is foreign when it really is promoting the governments propaganda. Your second websites seems fair i will read it more thats an interesting article. Now if you watch good debates where muslims debate each other on issues relating to suicide bombing, womens rights, muslims not doing enough to stop terror etc go to http://www.dohadebates.com/. Look through the archives they debate sensitive issues as well. Surprising on the debate where they said Arab journalists should take some advice from the western media lol the arabs agreed with that notion.

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