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What is the difference between a religion and a cult?
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Posted 6/14/09 , edited 6/14/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:
So you do not put the fear of hell in there heads?
You do not tell the kids that only kids who believe in god go to heaven?
you do know when older people tell them things like that, it affects the kids, they learn to think of everything told to them as the truth.
That is why Kids believe in the easter Bunny, Santa, and the tooth fairy. Becouse there older people told them so.
So yes You are brain washing them, by telling them that hell is real and that heaven is the only place that will save you from that.
You are forcing your Ideals into little kids heads. This is Brainwashing.


That’s debatable, if we’re using the traditional definition of the term.

Brain Washing: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim's prior beliefs. Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Technically, if you start out raising a child to be a Christian then you’re not destroying prior beliefs because a child’s mind is a blank slate. They don’t believe anything except what they’re taught: therefore, it’s religious education, not brainwashing. However, if I were to walk into a mosque of Muslim youths and start trying to convert them that is technically brainwashing, though perhaps without the typical cultural connotation of negativity…perhaps.

Even then it's not -necessarily-coercive so still not technically brainwashing by the standard definition of the term.
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Posted 6/14/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:
So you do not put the fear of hell in there heads?
You do not tell the kids that only kids who believe in god go to heaven?
you do know when older people tell them things like that, it affects the kids, they learn to think of everything told to them as the truth.
That is why Kids believe in the easter Bunny, Santa, and the tooth fairy. Becouse there older people told them so.
So yes You are brain washing them, by telling them that hell is real and that heaven is the only place that will save you from that.
You are forcing your Ideals into little kids heads. This is Brainwashing.


That’s debatable, if we’re using the traditional definition of the term.

Brain Washing: to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim's prior beliefs. Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Technically, if you start out raising a child to be a Christian then you’re not destroying prior beliefs because a child’s mind is a blank slate. They don’t believe anything except what they’re taught: therefore, it’s religious education, not brainwashing. However, if I were to walk into a mosque of Muslim youths and start trying to convert them that is technically brainwashing, though perhaps without the typical cultural connotation of negativity…perhaps.

Even then it's not -necessarily-coercive so still not technically brainwashing by the standard definition of the term.


Well don't you think the kid should decide for him/herself what he/she wants to believe or not believe in instead of having religion shoved down the kids throat ?
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Allhailodin wrote:
Well don't you think the kid should decide for him/herself what he/she wants to believe or not believe in instead of having religion shoved down the kids throat ?


Well, I don’t think three year olds should be left to make –any- life changing decisions, and I certainly don’t think we should severely limit the parent’s right to educate their child as they see fit. Besides, we cannot simply say ‘you don’t get to educate your child in what I don’t consider to be factual,’ because if you get far enough into it you always run into the cogito ergo sum boundary. Even calling science factual requires some degree of faith. And, if you get right down to that…well, we’re not really successfully forcing anything on anyone. There are more children claiming to be atheists than adults, more young adults than middle aged adults, more middle aged than elderly. Religion is declining, so even if we’re trying to force something on our children we’re not really succeeding.
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Posted 6/14/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:
Well don't you think the kid should decide for him/herself what he/she wants to believe or not believe in instead of having religion shoved down the kids throat ?


Well, I don’t think three year olds should be left to make –any- life changing decisions, and I certainly don’t think we should severely limit the parent’s right to educate their child as they see fit. Besides, we cannot simply say ‘you don’t get to educate your child in what I don’t consider to be factual,’ because if you get far enough into it you always run into the cogito ergo sum boundary. Even calling science factual requires some degree of faith. And, if you get right down to that…well, we’re not really successfully forcing anything on anyone. There are more children claiming to be atheists than adults, more young adults than middle aged adults, more middle aged than elderly. Religion is declining, so even if we’re trying to force something on our children we’re not really succeeding.


Well i don't think religion should be shoved upon a kid until their old enough to decide if they wanna believe in it or not. But yeah I had heard religion was declining, Seems like more and more people are starting to get smart and realizing all the flaws with religion if you ask me.
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Posted 6/14/09
An atheist would say - who cares!
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Posted 6/14/09 , edited 6/14/09

Allhailodin wrote:
Well i don't think religion should be shoved upon a kid until their old enough to decide if they wanna believe in it or not. But yeah I had heard religion was declining, Seems like more and more people are starting to get smart and realizing all the flaws with religion if you ask me.


Teaching a child to believe something and shoving it down the child’s throat are two different things, and it doesn’t hurt anybody in any way shape or form to tell a child that God exists. You'd be completely okay, for example if a child pointed at the clouds and said, “what are those made of?” and I replied, ‘water vapors.” Because you regard that as a fact in the ultimate truth of reality. So, it’s okay to educate a child with what you agree on, just not what you disagree on?

As far as people getting smart, I don’t think so. I don’t think belief or lack there of has much anything to do with intellectual prowess. I just think that atheism is a sort of chic fashion trend. That’s why mediocre and recycled books like “The God Delusion,” are treated like relics. Don’t get me wrong. I love “A Brief History of Time,” which scientifically refutes God. I also love Richard Dawking’s as an evolutionary scientist, but his theological arguments only make it clear that he doesn’t understand religion-Christianity and Judaism most of all-and that his opinions are inherited not original.
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Posted 6/14/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:
Well i don't think religion should be shoved upon a kid until their old enough to decide if they wanna believe in it or not. But yeah I had heard religion was declining, Seems like more and more people are starting to get smart and realizing all the flaws with religion if you ask me.


Teaching a child to believe something and shoving it down the child’s throat are two different things, and it doesn’t hurt anybody in any way shape or form to tell a child that God exists. You'd be completely okay, for example if a child pointed at the clouds and said, “what are those made of?” and I replied, ‘water vapors.” Because you regard that as a fact in the ultimate truth of reality. So, it’s okay to educate a child with what you agree on, just not what you disagree on?

As far as people getting smart, I don’t think so. I don’t think belief or lack there of has much anything to do with intellectual prowess. I just think that atheism is a sort of chic fashion trend. That’s why mediocre and recycled books like “The God Delusion,” are treated like relics. Don’t get me wrong. I love “A Brief History of Time,” which scientifically refutes God. I also love Richard Dawking’s as an evolutionary scientist, but his theological arguments only make it clear that he doesn’t understand religion-Christianity and Judaism most of all-and that his opinions are inherited not original.


Everything has flaws, nothing perfect exists, religion is no different.
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Posted 6/14/09

Allhailodin wrote:
Everything has flaws, nothing perfect exists, religion is no different.


Exactly my point, religion is no different. Why is it okay to teach children something that’s no different from religion, but if you’re teaching them religion, which is no different from the other thing, it’s suddenly brainwashing and forcing your views down the throat of a child? Why are you okay with teaching a child one thing, that’s no different from religion, but not religion, which is no different than the other thing?
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Posted 6/14/09 , edited 6/14/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:
Everything has flaws, nothing perfect exists, religion is no different.


Exactly my point, religion is no different. Why is it okay to teach children something that’s no different from religion, but if you’re teaching them religion, which is no different from the other thing, it’s suddenly brainwashing and forcing your views down the throat of a child? Why are you okay with teaching a child one thing, that’s no different from religion, but not religion, which is no different than the other thing?


I'd rather teach the kid factual information instead of fairy tales about things that might not exist.
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Posted 6/15/09
Actually, i don't belong to any religion, but if they believe in God, i really don't care at all if it's a cult or not.
It's their life.
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Posted 6/15/09

xeereex wrote:

Actually, i don't belong to any religion, but if they believe in God, i really don't care at all if it's a cult or not.
It's their life.


A life they happen to be brainwashed into, so it might be there life, but its a life they had no choice in having.
Posted 6/15/09 , edited 6/15/09
(smirk)
personally, i dislike religion. people can do whatever they want with it, its there life.
but....it dose make conversations rather intersting...so.
i think people can take religions and cults any way they want, either way you lose your freedom. your liberty of doing what you want without having the threat of beatings or hell in your wake.

so, this....totally dident awnser your question. but hey.....one post dosent matter.
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Posted 6/15/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


digs wrote:


Swedie wrote:


digs wrote:

I cult usually revolves around one leader, they tend to be very extreme and highly extortional. Cults brainwash and usually (not all, but many) are directly against Christianity and in favor of satanic principals. Most cults have some form of magic or spiritual meditation.

And not all religion brainwashes children or uses threats of violence :\ I really don't see how hating of religion adds to the discussion of how they are different from cults. We could say all things try to brainwash children and all parents do. Kids aren't wise enough or mature enough to understand metaphysics and spiritual things, so their parents teach them what they believe. Kids are too young and naive (usually) to understand what religion and God really are, and to not instruct them on anything will only confuse them when they hear about God and other beliefs.


We can switch this all around you know
So you say a cult usually revolves around one leader
Well Christianity revolves around God
Christianity is a monotheistic, meaning one leader who is worship
Christians are brainwashed into thinking that anyone whose practice that does not follow their doctrine will all go to "hell".

Every religion brainwashes children, it's the level of brainwashing that is important. If you grew up in a strong Christian household then you are most likely to be religious at one point or another and have your values defined by what you have been taught. Values that God will be pleased with.

Personally I think children would be less confused if they didn't hear about God and other beliefs until they are older and want to belong to a religion. They won't be confused by whether or not they please this being that does or does not exist. The Bible is confusing enough with all the contradiction it has. Kids will just eat anything up if that pleases their parents, they just want the acceptance.


Christians aren't brainwashed. I am a Christian because I choose to be one, in fact before I was Christian I was atheist. Parent's raise their children with the knowledge of the Bible, just like how atheist parents tell their children there is no God. It's not brainwashing, it's education. And we aren't brainwashed into thinking anyone who isn't Christian goes to hell, we choose to believe it because it's in the Bible. This isn't intolerance, but truth for us, which is why we are to show Christ's love to the world. So they may see Christ in us and choose to be saved from hell and sin. The Bible teaches that we choose to go to hell, and that every provision has been made so that we can be forgiven from sin and go to heaven.

What is your definition of brainwashing? People do tend to have values based on how they are raised, is that wrong? Christians, Muslims, atheists, they all raise their kids with the values that they hold to be true. That isn't brainwashing, it's parenting.

I think kids should learn about God as children. If they have no instruction or beliefs then anyone can take control of them and give them impressions of God that either aren't true, or dangerous. Kids have questions like how the universe was created, if God exists, and so on. Parents should answer their questions with what is right. Kids aren't intellectuals, they go for what appeals to them. They aren't going to make rational decisions on their own, which is why parents parent.



So you do not put the fear of hell in there heads?
You do not tell the kids that only kids who believe in god go to heaven?
you do know when older people tell them things like that, it affects the kids, they learn to think of everything told to them as the truth.
That is why Kids believe in the easter Bunny, Santa, and the tooth fairy. Becouse there older people told them so.
So yes You are brain washing them, by telling them that hell is real and that heaven is the only place that will save you from that.
You are forcing your Ideals into little kids heads. This is Brainwashing.


Parents usually instill morals and an obedience to God in their heads. They tell them about hell, but it isn't to scare children.
And we don't tell them believing in God gets you into heaven, because even the demons believe and tremble (according to the Bible). We tell them you have to repent in Jesus name in order to be forgiven, and the forgiveness from sins is what gets us into heaven. Or rather, what removes us from being sent to hell because God wants us in heaven, we just can't get there if we have sin because sin cannot dwell in God's presence and must be judged.
May I apply the same thing to other parents? Do atheists not teach their kids that all religions are fictitious and that there is no God? Don't atheists tell their kids that we can't know what is right or wrong because there is no absolute set of morals? (not saying they don't teach them to do good and not do bad things like murder, stealing, etc...). By your definition, all parents brainwash their children into what they believe. All education is brainwashing if you want to call it that. Kids can make choices when they grow up, but parents instruct them according to what they believe is right, this is the essence of being a parent.

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Posted 6/16/09
in christianitys case,constantine....
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Posted 10/22/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


ShroomInferno wrote:

What Seraph said.

Just recently some pseudo intellectual on here tried to persuade me that I misused the word religion on Scientology, that Scientology is just a cult and no religion, so to say. He wouldn't want to give up...and continued trying to find flaws in my text...; talking about some kid who just can't admit defeat. *sigh*


Well, if you’re using the academic definition all cults are religions, but not all religions are cults…just most of them. That actually reminds me of a true and yet somehow still interesting story that took place in one of my favorite nations: Canada. You all know I like Canada, I’m always talking about how great it is. Anybody who’s logical will love Canada. The basic formula is: Liberal drug laws+ legal prostitution + all nude dancing + Shania Twain = totally awesome. I’m seriously not bashing Canada, but this really did happen and it’s not a rare occurrence.

A young man making a public speech offhandedly described scientology as a cult, and as you know this particular cult doesn’t like being called a cult. So, whenever discussing the cult that is scientology you can’t call it a cult even though it’s a cult. I like using the word cult here because it’s an anonymous source and the cult’s lawyers can’t do anything about me calling their cult a cult. Unless of course they find out how to track my IP address, in which case I’m screwed.

Anyway! Some scientologist got ticked and pressed charges for verbal abuse and totally won, because in Canada you’re not allowed to be controversial apparently. So, this young man-who made an innocent statement of fact –was actually arrested because somebody didn’t like him calling a cult a cult. That this is illegal in Canada makes me want to laugh. Then again, I’m from Germany where you can get arrested for lifting your middle finger in somebody’s direction. Luckily, in Germany you can also walk around naked so if you’re a guy you have something else to lift if you’re pissed off. Then again, German law enforcers can beat you within an inch of your life at their discretion so I wouldn’t screw around.

Now, I’m not quite sure how I got this off topic: it’s the dam red bull, I swear. The point is that there are multiple forms of the word cult. The only time you’ll find somebody using it in the context I describe is in fact while reading text books. The word as used by the media does seem to have developed a distinct definition completely independent form that employed by books like Mary Pat Fisher’s “Living Religions.” (That was my post for my last source if anyone is curious.)

Now here’s what I want to hit you up with. Friedrich Nietzche (whose name is a pain in the ass to spell,) is an atheistic German philosophy who gathered a group of puppets, I mean followers, and eventually created: Nietzchianism which is defined as a cult. So, it’s an atheistic cult...but a cult is a religion, so does that make it an atheist religion? Yeah, your brain just flip over in your head? Fucking paradox.


"Now here’s what I want to hit you up with. Friedrich Nietzche (whose name is a pain in the ass to spell,) is an atheistic German philosophy who gathered a group of puppets, I mean followers, and eventually created: Nietzchianism which is defined as a cult. So, it’s an atheistic cult...but a cult is a religion, so does that make it an atheist religion? Yeah, your brain just flip over in your head? Fucking paradox."

not really. athiest CAN be religious depending on what type of athiest you are.

there are religions that dont use gods, so all of thier partinciners are athiest by definition. Athiesm its self CAN be a religion.

you also have satonist athiest. A religion full of athiest. Christians can be athiests. The list goes on and on.

Only agnostics can truly be defined as non-religious. And some athiest. And generally any indifferent person, reguardless if they believe in God or not. After all, religion is not synominous with God.

And to stay on topic: cults are unpopular religions, religions are popular religions.

And brainwashing has nothing to do with either, for we are all brainwashed by our societies in some form or fasion.peace over war
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