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Brainwashing kids
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20 / F / Indonesia Raya
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Posted 7/5/09

KinkyBear wrote:

another good way to stop brainwashing is to stop watching american news!!!


Kinda agree, haha
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Posted 7/5/09
Hadn't this happened for centuries? And only recently it is treated as a problem.

I think if the child is strong enough, it will grow up and develop it's own views on religion or politics. I dunno about other countries, but at my place, you get a choice when your 12 to choose if you would like to continue the religion you were having (your parents religion) or choose your own. Most kids just keep on with their old one though.

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Posted 7/15/09
I do indeed agree. While it's unfortunate that there are indeed people with such mindsets, it is just a set of beliefs. It the parents have a history of hate crimes and are telling the kids to enact hate crimes, THEN intervening is allowed. Intervening should only be allowed when what is being taught is criminal. I rather doubt they were telling the kid to kill someone. Free thought is a right, even if there are problems with the nature of it.

I do so totally agree that it is in the same position of any other religion. Ideally a kid should be presented with multiple ideas to study. But full-scale enforcement of that isn't quite plausible.
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Posted 9/8/09

Yei wrote:

Right now there's this big story here in Canada about a 7 year old girl who was taken away by social services because her parents were teaching her their hateful white supremacist views: http://www.canada.com/news/Girl+said+black+people+should+custody+hearing+told/1628276/story.html

The parents make a very good point about religious people teaching their kids their possibly hateful views. If this child can be taken away on the basis of her parents teaching her hateful ideas, what about all the other kids who get hateful ideas from their parents, usually religious ones? For example, some of the Muslim students in my school say gays should be stoned to death. Many Christians think gays should be executed too. How's that any different than this girl being taught black people deserve to die?

So I don't think the Canadian government should take this girl away if they don't plan on somehow dealing with all the other brainwashing going on. Children shouldn't even be exposed to any serious views on anything until they're old enough to understand them. It's a serious problem when 7 year olds are saying they're Muslim or Christian if they can't even read the Quran or Bible yet. And just like in that Jesus Camp documentary, all their parents' political views and views on everything else also get drilled into their heads from a very young age. I do think that's a serious problem, but I don't think there's anything we can do about it, so the Canadian government is wrong here IMO


1st of all, lets put legalities aside for a moment. Lets not get law and morality mixed up.

I have no idea what brainwashing is. To me it's the same thing as learning something. i dont see a difference. That aside, its 100% natural for children to LEARN from their parents. Parents are the number one most influential thing in a child's life. children r born as blank slates (born into evil if your chiristian), and they must be taught at a very young age what morals are (what is good and what is bad).

Children shouldn't even be exposed to any serious views on anything until they're old enoughto understand them

what is a serious view?

like morals? when its ok to steal or murder? rape? political values? religious beliefs?

define serious views for me.

and how old is old enough?

i know 40 yr old americans that cant understand politics without some type of college course on it. Who understands religion? I bet even fewer people can answer that.


exposed?
also how can you keep children away from those things? its all over the media, school, and peers. The 2nd most influential thing in a child's life is environment.If the parents dont do it, the media will.calculate the chances of what the child will be learning givin the media as a teacher

I do think that's a serious problem

it doesnt have to be if people go to college and learn to think critically fo themselves, but only a minority of people can do that. and public highschools really dont get the job done.

as for the government, i know nothing about Canadian polictics so i cant say anything about it, but, generally morals and laws dont mix, and laws based on morals r never logical, coherent, or advisable, but people fall for them anyway.peace over war

Yei
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Posted 9/8/09

JJT2 wrote:

1st of all, lets put legalities aside for a moment. Lets not get law and morality mixed up.

I have no idea what brainwashing is. To me it's the same thing as learning something. i dont see a difference.


Learning is when you naturally gain knowledge, brainwashing is a method of controlled systematic indoctrination.



That aside, its 100% natural for children to LEARN from their parents. Parents are the number one most influential thing in a child's life. children r born as blank slates (born into evil if your chiristian), and they must be taught at a very young age what morals are (what is good and what is bad).


Learning from your parents is natural, but being indoctrinated isn't.


what is a serious view?

like morals? when its ok to steal or murder? rape? political values? religious beliefs?

define serious views for me.

and how old is old enough?

i know 40 yr old americans that cant understand politics without some type of college course on it. Who understands religion? I bet even fewer people can answer that.


Religious beliefs, especially outside of secular thinking. And if it's just a cultural thing, like secular Christians and Muslims, I know it can't be helped, but it's still wrong.




exposed?
also how can you keep children away from those things? its all over the media, school, and peers. The 2nd most influential thing in a child's life is environment.If the parents dont do it, the media will.calculate the chances of what the child will be learning givin the media as a teacher


They can see and take in whatever they see around them, but they shouldn't be exposed to indoctrination, especially of of extreme views.



it doesnt have to be if people go to college and learn to think critically fo themselves, but only a minority of people can do that. and public highschools really dont get the job done.


That's not the problem, even with a good education the damage is already done from when they were children.
Posted 9/8/09
Too lazy (or choose not to) read most of the comments/criticizes about this and that religion. Some of these facts/opinion I wrote could be wrong. I'll just type something not about religion. Sorry if I have mistaken any paragraphs with false or bias sentences, or any grammar errors.


So let see... A 7 year old girl being a neo-nazi kid at school with swastika signs. She wish that all Blacks die. If the government gonna take this 7 year old daughter away from their parents, then why don't they plan to take out other youngsters with hatred beliefs, especially religious one?

If you think about it, the governments are doing their best to catch criminals and those who cause hatred > Immoral? laws saying people who learn to hate is a criminal act? They learn to hate but they probably didn't do anything illegal. There is no law saying, "Hate another is illegal" (or something like that). Like what JJT2 said, Law and moral don't mix. People just thinks of Free Thought. Thinking this and that. Maybe the government isn't doing their best to capture criminals. (This paragraph does not reply to this thread)

--- But one thing for sure is, there is a higher chance that people who hate others would cause problem. If you want to eat a cake in the refrigerator, might there be a chance that you will get the cake? If you want to kill someone when your this young, might there be a chance that you will kill someone when you grow up? Most of us fear that little kids who get in to bad attitudes is... bad of course. They might rape someone, kill someone, beat someone, curse at someone, etc. etc., but not all bad people are always bad. There might be a chance that someone change their view more positive...or negative.

Sure that her parents teach her that white is superior than all race, but the part about, "DEATH TO BLACKS," must be her view. She probably had patriotism about how her white race is superior. In my other point of view, Almost everyone (or everyone is) rebellious. I can't find a better definition/explanation, but we tend to disobey rules and laws. We Free Thought about how the president is bad and how the government isn't helping us and how our neighbor is annoying. There is too much ignorance around the world, and that is strength (I suppose). I mean, we had some patriotism in ourselves.


I'm sorry if I have mistaken on these paragraph; either false, bias, wrong, or grammar error. I like to answer specific questions with the best opinions I can get out of my head, but this thread need many information, and that many information is what I can not provide. Especially at my age and lack of belief on religions, I didn't know much so... yea. What I'm trying to say is, sure that these parents are allowed to teach their daughter about superior and hatred, but it increases the chance that this girl will be an immoral/ignorant person.

How would you feel if you read the news about 2 little brothers making 2 kid having sex act on each other, and burn a kid's eye with a cigarette, and torture them? If you hate these two brothers, then what will happen to this girl? May make you feel like you want to hang them or blame their parents. Maybe this daughter do the same, but maybe not. If you feel no hatred then....meh I got nothing to say for now lol.

For the Government, If they take this girl away why not take the other kid? More funds needed for the law enforcements, where some police might kick your @ss and beat you up or take down your house > Abusing power. Governments pay this operation with enough incomes and let the police move around the street, with signs saying, "Stop the hatred abuse," and you see police bursting in people's house and take their child away. Maybe expand the care/foster centers. Maybe put a social care for all classes (or something like that) in every school. Maybe violated people property.

First of all, I do not know how the Canadian's Government work. I don't know much about the United State's Government too. In 2-3 years I'll probably know most of it when I get classes that has something to do with governments that would make me research on the internet. Do you want the government to monitor people's business? Might be a dictator than democracy. I'm just trying to say that the government will need more funds, and people will yell at the government that they have, "taken more power" to control the state for the, "sake of safety and better moral views". Its hard for the governments to find every hatred child in a country. This daughter was caught by a police, but somewhere out there are more child being taught how to hate, and other stuffs.

About the part that kids should see this and that when they get older. Possible chance that they will see exposures even when they are young. They can be too darn rebellious. My cousin's little daughter is 9-11 year old, and she rather watch resident evil, a movie about soldiers killing mutants, scary pops up on youtube, mild nudity girls.
What did I say when I told her not to look at this and that,

" Your not the boss of me," and she stupidly stick her tongue out with a mocking face at me.

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Posted 9/8/09 , edited 9/8/09

Yei wrote:


JJT2 wrote:

1st of all, lets put legalities aside for a moment. Lets not get law and morality mixed up.

I have no idea what brainwashing is. To me it's the same thing as learning something. i dont see a difference.


Learning is when you naturally gain knowledge, brainwashing is a method of controlled systematic indoctrination.



That aside, its 100% natural for children to LEARN from their parents. Parents are the number one most influential thing in a child's life. children r born as blank slates (born into evil if your chiristian), and they must be taught at a very young age what morals are (what is good and what is bad).


Learning from your parents is natural, but being indoctrinated isn't.


what is a serious view?

like morals? when its ok to steal or murder? rape? political values? religious beliefs?

define serious views for me.

and how old is old enough?

i know 40 yr old americans that cant understand politics without some type of college course on it. Who understands religion? I bet even fewer people can answer that.


Religious beliefs, especially outside of secular thinking. And if it's just a cultural thing, like secular Christians and Muslims, I know it can't be helped, but it's still wrong.




exposed?
also how can you keep children away from those things? its all over the media, school, and peers. The 2nd most influential thing in a child's life is environment.If the parents dont do it, the media will.calculate the chances of what the child will be learning givin the media as a teacher


They can see and take in whatever they see around them, but they shouldn't be exposed to indoctrination, especially of of extreme views.



it doesnt have to be if people go to college and learn to think critically fo themselves, but only a minority of people can do that. and public highschools really dont get the job done.


That's not the problem, even with a good education the damage is already done from when they were children.


Learning is when you naturally gain knowledge, brainwashing is a method of controlled systematic indoctrination.

like teaching? or school? im not trying to be a smart ass, im actually curious, i asked my psychology teacher and he told me to google it, but i still cant see a difference in teaching and brainwashing.

Religious beliefs, especially outside of secular thinking. And if it's just a cultural thing, like secular Christians and Muslims, I know it can't be helped, but it's still wrong

religious beliefs (and political ones) are taken very seriously, but political beliefs can also be secular. along with morals. if u wait to teach kids about it, then they will learn from the media or someone else. There is no way to "wait" for a better time. Kids cant think on the same level as adults, there brains havnt finished growing yet. U cant give them a lists of religions or political beliefsm define each, and expect them to choose. they wouldnt be interested until the age of 19 at leasts. Your political beliefs/ religious/ secular ones where given to you by your parents, who am i to judge if thier wrong or not? Its natural. We get those things from our parents, and they usually dont change until we are adults or late teens. There is no other way to go about it, unless u want to get rid of religion and politics all together?

yea, try having a country without a politicly active population, its called dictatorship.But u do seem to understand that it cant be helped, so if it has to be wrong, its a nessesary wrong.

They can see and take in whatever they see around them, but they shouldn't be exposed to indoctrination, especially of of extreme views.

that statement contridicts itself, what if they see and take in extreme views because thats all thats around them? The media has as much indoctrination as anything else. It tells us what beautiful is, whats safe to eat (even if nutritionist with PHDs disagree), what to wear (even if we cant afford it).
are u telling me that's not brainwashing?

That's not the problem, even with a good education the damage is already done from when they were children

whats the damage? political and religious beliefs? When you become an adult, u dont have to have the same beliefs as your parents. Nothing is forcing u to. Where is the damage taking place? at some point in time you choose it for yourself, if your intelligent enough, u find what works best for you. Who is this damaging? the society?

once again, im not trying to be a smart ass, it just seems to be that when ever a person learns (brainwash by your definition) about a religion or a unpopular political belief, its called brainwashing.
But if they learn (brainwash by your definition) to be a democrat or republican, its ok then.


As you have stated ealier, at some point in time, it's really all the same thing. i honestly dont see a problem with any of it. Every democrat sees a republican as being wrong.
and if your going to try and argue "moderation", the same could be said for unpopular political beliefs, or religious ones.
"brainwashing" could also apply to popular beliefs as well.

Edit: i did a little research on brainwashing.
1.Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.

2.The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaignor repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation..http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/brainwashing


any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs against a person's will, usually beliefs in conflict with prior beliefs and knowledge. It initially referred to political indoctrination of prisoners of war and political prisoners. http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns/cns_hl_dorlands_split.jsp?pg=/ppdocs/us/common/dorlands/dorland/two/000014405.htm


http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov02/cults.html more info on brainwashing.

Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or re-education) is a general term consisting of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person — beliefs sometimes unwelcome or in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge.[1] Motives for brainwashing may include the aim of affecting that individual's value system and subsequent thought-patterns and behaviors.

There is not a strict scientific definition on what constitutes "brainwashing" (as opposed to extreme propaganda) and in 1987, the American Psychological Association (APA) Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology (BSERP) defined it as "lack[ing] the scientific rigor" and "does not believe that we have sufficient information available to guide us in taking a position on this issue." The debate amongst APA members on this subject continues
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

Edit 2-The Politics of Religious Persecution

Over the last few decades, there have been an increasing number of cruel attacks on sincere people of many faiths and religions, brushing off their dedication and idealism as an apparent symptom of "brainwashing" or mental or spiritual coercion. The notion that religious leaders are controlling the minds of their members has been dramatized in the media, serving to further popularize the concept. As a result, restrictions on religious liberty have been or are presently being enacted in more and more countries around the world, limiting individual religious freedom, even though such legislation is at odds with most of these countries' constitutions. Some anti-religionists have also attempted to present such "mind control" theories in courts of law as established scientific fact, despite the fact that "brainwashing" as a concept has been rejected by most of the international academic community. Such efforts, accompanied by intense lobbying by anti-religious sectors, have enabled the "brainwashing" theory to be found nominally acceptable in varying degrees in Western European governmental reports and legislation, though it remains a nebulous concept without clear definition.

Anti-religious organizations on several continents cultivate and sponsor the few psychologists or academics that espouse the theory of "mind control" for the purpose of attacking the membership of various churches and religious organizations. These "experts" help such organizations cloak religious bigotry under a wrap of scientific- and medical-sounding terms to gain respectability for their unscientific deeds and claims. Such organizations that oppose freedom of religion or freedom of association are commonly referred to as the anti-"cult" movement (ACM), in direct relation to the minority religious groups they attack, which have been popularly labeled by their opponents as cults. The word "cult" as such is not useful, in that it comes laden with prejudice and the intent to denigrate minority religions. Anti-cult organizations have taken upon themselves to determine whether groups merit the status of religion or cultwhich they define as a destructive group, in an attempt to obviate their religious nature. Membership in bona fide religions is an expression of free choice; cults, they contend, employ mind manipulation techniques that control individuals and thus do not allow for individual free choice.

We contend that theories of "robotic brainwashing" and "mind control," as popularized by anti-religious sectors, are unfounded myths with no basis in sound scientific or medical research. Many academics, theologians, sociologists, psychologists, and psychiatrists have actively disavowed and debunked these theories and have published much research on the topic. The remainder of this paper will be largely devoted to presenting some of their most relevant findings.

http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/statements/brainwashing.htm

i know it's a lot.... but

all im hearing is a bunch of different definitions and many psychologist saying they dont know enough about it, dont believe in it, or it's not even a serious field of study or even taken seriously in the scientific community.

maybe i need to make my own thread on brainwashing? perhaps i could argue it doesnt exists until it has some serious study under it's belt? some definitions say its just advertisement, or re-education. if the kids have no education to begin with, is it still considered brainwashing? btw, i will make my own thread on this in the extended discussion section.i need to know if this is an actual real problem or a myth created by the media. peace over war
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Posted 5/25/11
it's really hypercritical, but honestly I'm glad she was taken away
and I think all of us hate to admit that we're thinking the same thing.....
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Posted 5/26/12
Since I'm Canadian, I understand what our government is trying to do.
we are ALL ABOUT multiculturalism. (or so we say) and yes, we do have the Freedom of religion and thought, we also promote how we appreciate all cultures. It would be a shame to have white supremacists walking around.
Posted 5/27/12
American kids: go through college to usually earn some fixed amount of money that they are told is "a lot" but really isn't, unless you decide to be a doctor.
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