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Why I am not a Christian
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Posted 7/10/09
Is it moral to believe that your sins can be forgiven by the punishment of another person? Is it ethical to believe that? I would submit that the doctrine of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral.

I could say, if I really loved someone who'd been sentenced to prison, "If I could find a way of serving your sentence, I'd do it."
I could do what Sydney Carton does in A Tale of Two Cities. "I'll take your place on the scaffold," but I can't take away your responsibilities, I can't forgive what you did, I can't say you didn't do it, I can't make you washed clean.

The name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society was scapegoating. You pile the sins of the tribe on a goat and you drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and hunger; and you think you've taken away the sins of the tribe: a positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept of personal responsibility on which all ethics and all morality must depend.

It has a further implication. I'm told that I have to have a share in this human sacrifice even it took place long before I was born. I have no say in it happening, I wasn't consulted about it. Had I been present, I would've been bound to do my best to stop the public torture and execution of an eccentric preacher. I would do the same even now. No, no, I'm implicated in it myself, I myself drove in the nails, I was present at Calvary. It confirms the original filthy sin in which I was conceived and born the son of Adam in Genesis. Again, this may sound a mad belief but it is the Christian belief.

Well, it's here that we find something very sinister about monotheism and about religious practice in general. It is incipiently at least, and I think often explicitly, totalitarian. I have no say in this. I am born under a celestial dictatorship which I could not have had any hand in choosing. I don't put myself under its government. I am told that it can watch me while I sleep. I'm told it can convict me of, here's the definition of totalitarianism, thought-crime- for what I think, I may be convicted and condemned. And if I commit a right action, it's only to evade this punishment and if I commit a wrong action I'm going to be caught up with not just punishment in life but even after I'm dead.

In the old testament, gruesome as it is, recommending as it, of genocide, racism, tribalism, slavery, and the displacement and destruction of others, terrible as the old testament gods are, they don't promise to punish the dead. There's no talk of torturing you after the earth has closed over the Malachites. Only told when gentle Jesus, meek and mild, makes his appearance are those who won't accept the message told they must depart into everlasting fire. Is this morality? Is this ethics? I submit not only is it not, not only does it come with the false promise of vicarious redemption, but it is the origin of the totalitarian principle which has been such a burden and shame to our species for so long.

I further think that it undermines us in our most essential integrity. It dissolves our obligation to live and witness in truth. Which of us would say that we would believe something because it might cheer us up? Or tell our children something was true because it might dry their eyes? Which of us indulges in wishful thinking? Who really cares about the pursuit of truth at all costs and at all hazards? Do you not hear it said repeatedly of religion and by the religious themselves that, "Well, it may not be really true. The stories may be fairy tales. The history may be dubious. But it provides consolation." Can anyone hear themselves saying this or have it said of them without some kind of embarrassment? Without the concession that thinking here is directly wishful that yes, it would be nice if you can throw you sins and responsibilities on someone else and have them resolved. But it's not true. And it's not morally sound.

On our basic integrity, knowing right from wrong, and being able to choose the right action over wrong one, I think one must repudiate the claim that 'one doesn't have this moral discrimination innately but no, it must come from the agency of a celestial dictatorship which one must love and simultaneously fear.' What is it like? I never tried it. I've never been a cleric. What is it like to lie to children for a living and tell them that they have an authority that they must love (compulsory love-- what a grotesque idea) and be terrified of at the same time. What's that like, I want to know. And that we don't have an innate sense of right and wrong. What is it like? I can personalize it to this extent. My mother's Jewish ancestors are told that until they got to Mt. Sinai, they've been dragging themselves around the desert under the impression that adultery, murder, theft, and perjury were all fine. They get to Mt. Sinai only to be told it's not kosher after all.
I'm sorry. Excuse me. We must have more self respect than that for ourselves and for others. Of course the story's a fiction. It's a fabrication exposed conclusively by Israeli archaeology. Nothing of the sort ever took place but suppose we took the metaphor. It's an insult. It's an insult to us. It's an insult to our deepest integrity.

You're a clot of blood, a piece of mud. You're lucky to be alive. God fashioned you for his convenience even though you're born in filth and sin and even though every religion that has ever been is distinguished principally by the idea that we should be disgusted by our own sexuality (name me a religion that does not play upon that fact).
So you're lucky to be here, originally sinful, and covered in shame and filth as you are. You're a wretched creature. BUT take heart, the universe is designed with you in mind and heaven has a plan for you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I close by saying, I can't believe there's a thinking person here who does not realize that our species would begin to grow something like its full height if it left this childishness behind, if it emancipated itself from this sinister,childish nonsense.


-Christopher Hitchens




part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYaQpRZJl18


part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkHuvErbpd0
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digs 
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You are gravely mistaken. Humanity did not make a human sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus being God, chose to atone for our sins. You see, God is Holy and Sovereign, and because of this He cannot have sin in His presence. Mankind was created perfectly and holy, but at the same time it was also given free will. Mankind created sin with free will instead of using it to follow and have a relationship with the Creator. You judge what you don't understand, and you see it through lenses of anger and contempt for Christianity. The truth is that the Cross is the greatest expression of love. Because God is Holy He cannot turn a blind eye to sin, sin must be judged and it must be atoned for. If it was just forgotten, left un-judged or erased that would make God unholy and sin permissible. Sin is opposite of God, and God is perfect, therefore sin is also imperfection. Now, in God's Holiness He must judge sin, this judgment is physical death and hell. Hell is the opposite of heaven, it is separation from God because of the sins we are guilty of and cannot be in God's presence. God's Love for us is so vast that Him, completely knowing that humanity would hate, reject, slander, and continue to sin, took the punishment for sin upon Himself through Christ. Sin is a problem, and it needed to be dealt with. God could have done one of two things, killed us all off and sent us into hell for eternity and start creation over. OR He could Love His creation with all of His Heart and take upon Himself the punishment for sin. That is exactly what God did, He came into the world as a human (Jesus), He lived a perfect and sinless life and therefore was not bound by the punishment of sin, yet with His perfection He was able to take the punishment off of us and onto Himself so that He may forgive sin and atone for it while still being Holy. Jesus chose to die on the cross for all humanity, it wasn't some human sacrifice that we did in order to justify sinful behavior. Forgiveness is in the authority of Jesus because He is the one who atoned for sin and has the power to forgive it and atone for us through His sacrifice. All who repent and ask for forgiveness are spared what they deserve. Their sins are forgiven and atoned for through the One who atoned for them. You see, God is a God of Love, and even though the Old Testament may contain wars and animal sacrifice, all these actions were actions of love. You don't understand the Scriptures and you are judging them according the human flesh and a pre-conceived hatred toward's the Bible.

The wars in the Old Testament were acts of judgment. They weren't mindless slaughter and they weren't out of God's "wrath" and hatred. God made a promise to the descendants of Abraham that the land of Canaan would be their land and their country. The Hebrews (Abraham's descendants) were enslaved in Egypt and oppressed by the government and pharaoh. God displayed His power through the plagues of Egypt, and each plague gradually got worse as pharaoh refused to allow the Hebrews to leave Egypt and go to Canaan. God constantly extends His Hand of Mercy to us so that we may choose forgiveness and change our hearts, but there comes a time when our time runs out and we, by our free will, have chosen to reject God and repent of our sins. Thus we freely choose the punishment for sin. God delivered the Hebrews from Egypt, He fed them in the desert and provided for all their needs. The nation states in Canaan heard of these things, and they knew that the Hebrews were coming to take that land and that God had given it to them. They had seen and heard of the powerful things God did in Egypt, and they knew that no one can oppose God. They had a choice. They can either remain in Canaan and oppose the Hebrews and God, or they can give up their cities and become apart of the nation of Israel. God had given the Law, and He said all who repent and choose to become apart of God's people and apart of Israel may do so, and that they would be saved. The Canaan city states refused to give themselves to Israel and chose to oppose the Hebrews and God, and after seeing the Power of God they had to witness it for themselves. They knew the land was to be given to the Hebrews, they saw God's power, and they chose to have that power used against them through war and the destruction. They chose to be destroyed and they chose to remain in sin and refuse to follow the One True God that they had proof of through His Power. God gave them a chance to repent, but they chose death and punishment instead. God doesn't delight in death, and the Old Testament even says that and can be found here. Eze 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. Eze 18:22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Eze 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? Eze 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Eze 18:26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. Eze 18:27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. Eze 18:28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.

The animal sacrifices themselves did not forgive sins, the were symbolic of what the Messiah (Jesus) would do. It's not that God requires animals to be sacrificed, and the animals certainly don't have the authority to atone for the sins. However, this was what was commanded as an act of repentance, the turning of sin and the symbolism of innocence atoning for sin. Here is a passage from Psalms you may want to read. Psa 51:16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.17 The sacrifices of God are [fn] a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. God wants the heart, not the ritual. The rituals were set in place to be an act of obedience and to give the people an understanding of what Mercy is and what Jesus would do for them. In fact, when those people died they did not go to heaven, they went to paradise. Sin had not been atoned for, and they couldn't enter heaven until Jesus had died on the cross. When Jesus died He forgave the dead who had repented and followed God's Law, and at that point Paradise was taken into Heaven.

Now, God is not a totalitarian. Yes He is Sovereign and in control, but He has given us free will. God is the Creator, and all things are His, yet He has given us the ability to chose our own will and live how we want to. All things in creation are subject to God, all things are His, but He gives them the right to freedom and to chose their own paths. Even those who reject God are under His Sovereignty, they just have the right to reject to abide by it. In the end our belief's don't dictate to God and we can't chose to be out from under God's sovereignty and judge ourselves. We can't forgive ourselves, we can chose to reject God and His Sovereignty, but it doesn't remove that Sovereignty. Like it or not we are all bound to it, but we have the choice to abide by it. God is Merciful, God is Love.
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digs wrote

[You are gravely mistaken. Humanity did not make a human sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus being God, chose to atone for our sins. You see, God is Holy and Sovereign, and because of this He cannot have sin in His presence. Mankind was created perfectly and holy, but at the same time it was also given free will. Mankind created sin with free will instead of using it to follow and have a relationship with the Creator. You judge what you don't understand, and you see it through lenses of anger and contempt for Christianity. The truth is that the Cross is the greatest expression of love. Because God is Holy He cannot turn a blind eye to sin, sin must be judged and it must be atoned for. If it was just forgotten, left un-judged or erased that would make God unholy and sin permissible. Sin is opposite of God, and God is perfect, therefore sin is also imperfection. Now, in God's Holiness He must judge sin, this judgment is physical death and hell. Hell is the opposite of heaven, it is separation from God because of the sins we are guilty of and cannot be in God's presence. God's Love for us is so vast that Him, completely knowing that humanity would hate, reject, slander, and continue to sin, took the punishment for sin upon Himself through Christ. Sin is a problem, and it needed to be dealt with. God could have done one of two things, killed us all off and sent us into hell for eternity and start creation over. OR He could Love His creation with all of His Heart and take upon Himself the punishment for sin. That is exactly what God did, He came into the world as a human (Jesus), He lived a perfect and sinless life and therefore was not bound by the punishment of sin, yet with His perfection He was able to take the punishment off of us and onto Himself so that He may forgive sin and atone for it while still being Holy. Jesus chose to die on the cross for all humanity, it wasn't some human sacrifice that we did in order to justify sinful behavior. Forgiveness is in the authority of Jesus because He is the one who atoned for sin and has the power to forgive it and atone for us through His sacrifice. All who repent and ask for forgiveness are spared what they deserve. Their sins are forgiven and atoned for through the One who atoned for them. You see, God is a God of Love, and even though the Old Testament may contain wars and animal sacrifice, all these actions were actions of love. You don't understand the Scriptures and you are judging them according the human flesh and a pre-conceived hatred toward's the Bible.]

If God loves us as you said why didn't he just use his god powers to wipe off sin from humanity instead of sending an innocent man to be tortured on across which is a Torture symbol? what self respecting individual use a torture symbol used to kill and torture for love? God did not create mankind perfect and holy if you read genesis Adam and Eve NEVER knew right from wrong UNTIL they eat from the tree of knowledge. you biblegod screw up he tells them not to eat from the tree KNOWING they did not know right from wrong. he should not put the tree in the garden in the first place and know your god expect us thier alledge descendants to suffer for thier sins and give us impossible to rules to follow with threats of eternal damnation the bibke is a repulsive book which should be hated

examples the bible support salvery

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44

Also:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

Also:

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity. - Titus 2:9


Sexism towards women

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. - 1 Corinthians 14

And:

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. - 1 Tim 2


In Matthew 18 verses 7 through 9, Jesus speaks:

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. - Matthew 18:7-9


[Now, God is not a totalitarian. Yes He is Sovereign and in control, but He has given us free will. God is the Creator, and all things are His, yet He has given us the ability to chose our own will and live how we want to. All things in creation are subject to God, all things are His, but He gives them the right to freedom and to chose their own paths. Even those who reject God are under His Sovereignty, they just have the right to reject to abide by it. In the end our belief's don't dictate to God and we can't chose to be out from under God's sovereignty and judge ourselves. We can't forgive ourselves, we can chose to reject God and His Sovereignty, but it doesn't remove that Sovereignty. Like it or not we are all bound to it, but we have the choice to abide by it. God is Merciful, God is Love.]

Biblegod is an tyrant. threats of eternal damnation is not free will



Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.

2 Chronicles 15:13
Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.




Yei
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You know something's wrong with your beliefs if Gandhi is not good enough to get into heaven but you are.
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digs 
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The Bible doesn't support slavery, but it gave the code for it. You may want to read the article here as it explains things better then I can http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html. Have you read any of what I posted? Or are you looking for excuses and trying to dig up things to demonize the Bible?

And yes, the Bible said to stone those who turn to other gods, but that was a direct command to the nation of Israel, and it states that if a man turns from his sin and repents he is spared. You missunderstand and you aren't allowing yourself to truly understand what the Bible says. Israel turned from God many many times and worshiped false gods. Many times God sent the prophets to teach them to return to God, they warned Israel of the coming judgment and to turn, and sometimes Israel killed them because their hearts were hard and they didn't want to apply what was being said. For generations God was waiting for them, and eventually they were punished through wars, exile, famine, etc... But regardless, they chose those things through rejecting God.

You can't pick out one or two verses of the Bible and say that it is the Mind of God. All of the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, all of it contains the Mind of God. I can't just pick up verses and say they solely contain the Mind of God. You have to read all of it and desire to gain an understanding and be willing to be guided by the Holy Spirit who will make things known, not pick and select what you think would demonize it the most and make God look evil or like a totalitarian dictator. Yes, there are verses about death, judgment and sin. But there are also verses about mercy, love, and forgiveness. What we can conclude is that God hates sin and that sin is punished, however, we can conclude that God is Merciful and extends His Hand of Mercy to us. You can quote verses about the punishments and stonings and death, but when the Bible records people commiting those sins it shows that they weren't killed on the spot. Some refused to repent and received the punishment they fully knew about, and others turned from their sin and were saved. One sin doesn't make you hopeless and immediately punished and dead, it is the heart.God is waiting for us to choose Him so that we may be saved from the punishment of death and hell. The Bible contains the Mind of God, and you should seek understanding and not wickedness when trying to pull from it. I am not denying those verses you shared, but you have to take those in and truly understand what is going on and weigh it in with the rest of the Bible to gain and understanding of Christianity and of God. By the way, notice how the verses say "shall" and "should." It implies what is deserved, notice however that no one seeks the Lord from the beginning and has the choice to do so.

@Yei- Gandhi still had sin, and all the good things he did are commendable, but they can't erase his sins. No one is worthy of heaven. Because God is Holy we don't have the authority to forgive ourselves and earn some kine of merit against our sins through good deeds. Our good deeds are pleasing to God when we serve Him through them, but they aren't what forgive sins. I am not good enough to get into heaven either, I can only go to heaven because Jesus is gracious and has forgiven me. It is neither by my merit or my good works that I am forgiven, but by the heart of repentance and belief in the One who has the Authority to forgive (Jesus). Gandhi didn't do this, and therefor chose to carry the burden of his sins. There is no good bad scale, there is only forgiveness and sin.
Yei
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digs wrote:


@Yei- Gandhi still had sin, and all the good things he did are commendable, but they can't erase his sins. No one is worthy of heaven. Because God is Holy we don't have the authority to forgive ourselves and earn some kine of merit against our sins through good deeds. Our good deeds are pleasing to God when we serve Him through them, but they aren't what forgive sins. I am not good enough to get into heaven either, I can only go to heaven because Jesus is gracious and has forgiven me. It is neither by my merit or my good works that I am forgiven, but by the heart of repentance and belief in the One who has the Authority to forgive (Jesus). Gandhi didn't do this, and therefor chose to carry the burden of his sins. There is no good bad scale, there is only forgiveness and sin.



Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into Christian families, while other luckier people just happen to be born in Christian families. If your born into a Muslim family in the Middle East, chances are you won't be raised with a mentality that would allow you to turn Christian. And people born in the Amazon or that are cut off from the rest of the world may never hear about Christianity.

There's something wrong with the idea that Gandhi will go to hell, but Hitler could go to heaven if he was baptized/accepted Jesus right before he died. So it's all pretty much based on luck. There's no justice or morality there, it's completely unfair and cruel.
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Chistopher Hitchens is good at extrapolating conclusions from things, but is not so hot at understanding the things in themselves. Since he doesn't understand the purpose of scapegoating, he should not talk about scapegoating.
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Yei wrote:


digs wrote:


@Yei- Gandhi still had sin, and all the good things he did are commendable, but they can't erase his sins. No one is worthy of heaven. Because God is Holy we don't have the authority to forgive ourselves and earn some kine of merit against our sins through good deeds. Our good deeds are pleasing to God when we serve Him through them, but they aren't what forgive sins. I am not good enough to get into heaven either, I can only go to heaven because Jesus is gracious and has forgiven me. It is neither by my merit or my good works that I am forgiven, but by the heart of repentance and belief in the One who has the Authority to forgive (Jesus). Gandhi didn't do this, and therefor chose to carry the burden of his sins. There is no good bad scale, there is only forgiveness and sin.



Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into Christian families, while other luckier people just happen to be born in Christian families. If your born into a Muslim family in the Middle East, chances are you won't be raised with a mentality that would allow you to turn Christian. And people born in the Amazon or that are cut off from the rest of the world may never hear about Christianity.

There's something wrong with the idea that Gandhi will go to hell, but Hitler could go to heaven if he was baptized/accepted Jesus right before he died. So it's all pretty much based on luck. There's no justice or morality there, it's completely unfair and cruel.

You don't have to be born into a Christian family to become a Christian, your faith isn't dictated by how you are raised. There are many atheist who were raised by Christians and many Christians who were raised by Hindu's etc... It's all a personal choice. And I was raised Christian, but I chose to become an atheist in my past. I didn't chose Christianity again because of my parents, in fact my beliefs are different from theres on several theological points. So it isn't because of what they taught me am I Christian, it's because I've chosen it and I've allowed myself to be convicted by the Holy Spirit and not harden myself to it. We all are convicted, but many refuse to live by that conviction and they just reject it because they don't want to hear it. That's human nature.

Hitler could go to heaven if he truly repented and turned from his sins, which he didn't though. Why is it hard to understand that forgiveness isn't based on what we've done? It should be a good thing that our pasts can't dictate whether or not we can be forgiven. Gandhi could have been forgiven too, but he chose not too. It's not a free ticket into heaven, repentance isn't just believing in Jesus and living as if you haven't turned from your sins, it's a heart change and God's Love and forgiveness encompasses every sin, no matter how bad. There is only justice and morality, and the truth is that every sin is worthy of death and hell because it is unholy. You can live your life as a saint, but living "good" doesn't correct the problem of sin in our lives. Sure God may not be angry with the good things people do, but He still has to judge our sin. Those good things don't correct the problem and they don't forgive our sins. We aren't the judge, and we don't merit what we deem to be "good enough" to outweigh the bad things we have done. The justice is that all people have sinned and all are worthy of hell. The judgment is that all who are willing to turn from their sins and be forgiven by the One who has the Authority to forgive may be saved. It's all free. Why is that such a bad thing? Why is it bad that God Loves even serial killers and murderers? He loves you, He loves them, and there isn't anything we can do that God's Love isn't great enough to forgive.
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digs wrote:

Hitler could go to heaven if he truly repented and turned from his sins, which he didn't though. Why is it hard to understand that forgiveness isn't based on what we've done? It should be a good thing that our pasts can't dictate whether or not we can be forgiven. Gandhi could have been forgiven too, but he chose not too. It's not a free ticket into heaven, repentance isn't just believing in Jesus and living as if you haven't turned from your sins, it's a heart change and God's Love and forgiveness encompasses every sin, no matter how bad. There is only justice and morality, and the truth is that every sin is worthy of death and hell because it is unholy. You can live your life as a saint, but living "good" doesn't correct the problem of sin in our lives. Sure God may not be angry with the good things people do, but He still has to judge our sin. Those good things don't correct the problem and they don't forgive our sins. We aren't the judge, and we don't merit what we deem to be "good enough" to outweigh the bad things we have done. The justice is that all people have sinned and all are worthy of hell. The judgment is that all who are willing to turn from their sins and be forgiven by the One who has the Authority to forgive may be saved. It's all free. Why is that such a bad thing? Why is it bad that God Loves even serial killers and murderers? He loves you, He loves them, and there isn't anything we can do that God's Love isn't great enough to forgive.


Some people are born into Jesus Camp and are brainwashed from birth to be Christian, aren't they lucky? Some people are born as the son of a Rabbi in Jerusalem, they're going to be raised so that they have to stick to Judaism. Very, very few people get a truly fair choice of their faith, you and me are lucky we weren't totally brainwashed and picked ours because of our own thinking. Others are fully brainwashed and have to believe what their parents believe. That's not fair. And what about the people who never hear about Christianity?
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[The Bible doesn't support slavery, but it gave the code for it. You may want to read the article here as it explains things better then I can http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html. Have you read any of what I posted? Or are you looking for excuses and trying to dig up things to demonize the Bible?]


that site presents a on sided christian view



Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life. - Leviticus 25:44

Also:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. - Exodus Chapter 21:20

Also:

Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to be refractory, nor to pilfer, but to show entire and true fidelity. - Titus 2:9


the bible supports and condone slavery and expect slaves to be obedient to thier masters



[
You can't pick out one or two verses of the Bible and say that it is the Mind of God. All of the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, all of it contains the Mind of God. I can't just pick up verses and say they solely contain the Mind of God. You have to read all of it and desire to gain an understanding and be willing to be guided by the Holy Spirit who will make things known, not pick and select what you think would demonize it the most and make God look evil or like a totalitarian dictator. Yes, there are verses about death, judgment and sin. But there are also verses about mercy, love, and forgiveness. What we can conclude is that God hates sin and that sin is punished, however, we can conclude that God is Merciful and extends His Hand of Mercy to us. You can quote verses about the punishments and stonings and death, but when the Bible records people commiting those sins it shows that they weren't killed on the spot. Some refused to repent and received the punishment they fully knew about, and others turned from their sin and were saved. One sin doesn't make you hopeless and immediately punished and dead, it is the heart.God is waiting for us to choose Him so that we may be saved from the punishment of death and hell. The Bible contains the Mind of God, and you should seek understanding and not wickedness when trying to pull from it. I am not denying those verses you shared, but you have to take those in and truly understand what is going on and weigh it in with the rest of the Bible to gain and understanding of Christianity and of God. By the way, notice how the verses say "shall" and "should." It implies what is deserved, notice however that no one seeks the Lord from the beginning and has the choice to do so.]


if the bible is inspired by the holy spirit explain why it is full of contractions and atrocities like genocide, massmurderes, etc. again biblegod is not merciful. threats of eternal damnation rules which are hard to follow etc are not merciful deeds


[@Yei- Gandhi still had sin, and all the good things he did are commendable, but they can't erase his sins. No one is worthy of heaven. Because God is Holy we don't have the authority to forgive ourselves and earn some kine of merit against our sins through good deeds. Our good deeds are pleasing to God when we serve Him through them, but they aren't what forgive sins. I am not good enough to get into heaven either, I can only go to heaven because Jesus is gracious and has forgiven me. It is neither by my merit or my good works that I am forgiven, but by the heart of repentance and belief in the One who has the Authority to forgive (Jesus). Gandhi didn't do this, and therefor chose to carry the burden of his sins. There is no good bad scale, there is only forgiveness and sin.]


what Ghandi did that was so sinful that he is unworthy of heaven? he freed india from the Oppressive British Empire and you think that be not accepting Jesus and his celestial dictatorship deserved to burn in hell forever? do you actually believe this good men deserves eteranl damnation? this is what christianity is about God made humanity so imperfect that he created hard rules to follow using threats then he send an innocent man to be tortured for our sins which destroy the concept of personal responsibility and all we need is to believe in jesus in order to get this magical get out of hell free card and a man like Ghandi and others who improve the lives of millions and doing good things for humanity deserve hellfire? do you honestly believe that good people like Ghandi deserve eternal torture if they don't surrender thier souls to a mythical celestial dictatorship?
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Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

Hitler could go to heaven if he truly repented and turned from his sins, which he didn't though. Why is it hard to understand that forgiveness isn't based on what we've done? It should be a good thing that our pasts can't dictate whether or not we can be forgiven. Gandhi could have been forgiven too, but he chose not too. It's not a free ticket into heaven, repentance isn't just believing in Jesus and living as if you haven't turned from your sins, it's a heart change and God's Love and forgiveness encompasses every sin, no matter how bad. There is only justice and morality, and the truth is that every sin is worthy of death and hell because it is unholy. You can live your life as a saint, but living "good" doesn't correct the problem of sin in our lives. Sure God may not be angry with the good things people do, but He still has to judge our sin. Those good things don't correct the problem and they don't forgive our sins. We aren't the judge, and we don't merit what we deem to be "good enough" to outweigh the bad things we have done. The justice is that all people have sinned and all are worthy of hell. The judgment is that all who are willing to turn from their sins and be forgiven by the One who has the Authority to forgive may be saved. It's all free. Why is that such a bad thing? Why is it bad that God Loves even serial killers and murderers? He loves you, He loves them, and there isn't anything we can do that God's Love isn't great enough to forgive.


Some people are born into Jesus Camp and are brainwashed from birth to be Christian, aren't they lucky? Some people are born as the son of a Rabbi in Jerusalem, they're going to be raised that they have to stick to Judaism. Very, very few people get a truly fair chance at their faith, you and me are lucky we weren't totally brainwashed and picked ours because of our own thinking. Others are fully brainwashed and have to believe what their parents believe. That's not fair. And what about the people who never hear about Christianity?


No one is truly brainwashed into Christianity because we all have the same free will. And even the "brainwashed" may still not be Christian if they don't repent of their sins. Many believe in Jesus, but they don't repent. Many who think they are saved aren't, because they aren't living it and just "believing all the right things." Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Mat 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Mat 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. Mat 7:25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. Mat 7:26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. Mat 7:27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

And those who haven't heard about Christianity still have the conviction of the Holy Spirit. God's Spirit works in the hearts of everyone to move them to repentance and seek the truth in Christ. God displays his power through creation, and everyone has that. God judges the heart.
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Christianity is about brainwashing saying that good people like Ghandi who liberated India from british rule deserve eternal damnation is a product of brainwashing and using jesus as a get out of hell freecard is immoral and unethical which goes against the concept of personal responsiblity
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Mr. digs, I'm not sure if you're catholic but it sounds like it since your believe that Jesus and God are one entity. I was taught that Jesus is the son of God. I don't want to turn this into a debate but I must ask, since you seem to like giving lengthy answers. If you believe Jesus and God are one in the same why would God knowingly come to earth and be killed? Walking into sacrifice (maybe suicide)? Don't take this as an attack on your faith. I'm just trying to understand other sects of Christianity as I would like to draw closer to god since I'm not currently affiliated with an particular sect.
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shinto-male wrote:

Christianity is about brainwashing saying that good people like Ghandi who liberated India from british rule deserve eternal damnation is a product of brainwashing and using jesus as a get out of hell freecard is immoral and unethical which goes against the concept of personal responsiblity


Have you not read what I posted before? Gandhi did good things, he helped the people of India, but he still refused to repent of sin. He still refused to worship false gods, and he chose to bear his sin and to take his own punishment for them. He did read the Bible, and if Gandhi is going to be set as a moral standard in this discussion then maybe we should hear about what his personal views of Jesus were


There is no get out free card, because those who abuse forgiveness aren't forgiven. Many will think they are because they believe the right stuff, but God forgives a heart of repentance, and repentance is real, not fake. We are personally responsible for our actions and we are judged for our choices. The forgiveness of Christ cannot be abused, it isn't a free "heaven ticket" in the sense that you can repent but not change your heart or your actions. That isn't repentance,
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spucy wrote:

Mr. digs, I'm not sure if you're catholic but it sounds like it since your believe that Jesus and God are one entity. I was taught that Jesus is the son of God. I don't want to turn this into a debate but I must ask, since you seem to like giving lengthy answers. If you believe Jesus and God are one in the same why would God knowingly come to earth and be killed? Walking into sacrifice (maybe suicide)? Don't take this as an attack on your faith. I'm just trying to understand other sects of Christianity as I would like to draw closer to god since I'm not currently affiliated with an particular sect.


Actually I'm not Catholic, I am a Charismatic Christian and I don't believe in any particular denomination either (I am non-denominational). And I believe in the Trinity. I believe that there is a God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe that the Three are one, but I also believe that the Three are not the same. Jesus is not the Father, and neither is the Holy Spirit, yet all Three are One God and of One Entity. And I don't mind you asking those questions and I don't see it as an attack It's great that you are pursuing God. I believe that Jesus knowingly came to earth to be an atoning sacrifice for sin. He knew all this was going to happen, but He chose it because His Love for us is greater then that. I view it as God Loving us enough to die for us and atone for our mistakes and sins. I see it as an expression of love, and Jesus says that too in the Bible when talking about sacrifice for others and the greatest form of love John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
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