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The Zeitgeist Discussion
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Posted 7/19/09

Karkarov wrote:

No I have the correct incident. I should rephrase in that my point is the Boston Massacre was a result of an attack on British soldiers, they did not "start" it or act for no reason. However in schools today you are mostly taught they were just scum who attacked a bunch of poor defenseless colonists for no reason, which is flat out not true.


You’re completely right, and the ironic thing is that the colonists knew it. Today we glorify the protestors and groups like the Sons and Daughter’s of Liberty. Back then, when they were actually around, the other American colonists didn’t like them. They were viewed in much the same fashion terrorists are by the Ummah. A better example might be the pro-life organizations responsible for the murder of that abortion doctor. (Although I think he deserved it. Which isn’t to say I agree with the Christians.) They were trying for what they viewed as a good cause, but their peers didn’t approve.
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Posted 7/19/09


Well my intent isn't to get all that deep into it only to draw the same picture per se in regards to Zeitgeist.

Yei
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Posted 7/19/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

The government hasn’t been secretive with 9/11 at all. Do you know how many independent and international engineers have investigated the official report? I don’t see how they can clandestine this any further than they already have. Maybe there was something suspicious going on, but there’s no evidence that we took down our own tower.


Where can I read the clearest official explanation of what exactly happened? There's a lot of things I have yet to hear explanations for, maybe all this suspicion just comes from ignorance.
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Posted 7/19/09 , edited 7/19/09

Yei wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

The government hasn’t been secretive with 9/11 at all. Do you know how many independent and international engineers have investigated the official report? I don’t see how they can clandestine this any further than they already have. Maybe there was something suspicious going on, but there’s no evidence that we took down our own tower.


Where can I read the clearest official explanation of what exactly happened? There's a lot of things I have yet to hear explanations for, maybe all this suspicion just comes from ignorance.


Take your pick. Give me a sec and I will organize

Professional articles, investigations, explanations, ext.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fahrenheit-2777
http://skepdic.com/refuge/bunk27.html
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6187493.ece

Websites attacking the conspiracy theory:
http://www.debunking911.com/
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article5516624.ece

United Kingdom news article quoting Engineers as saying:

the towers behaved as they would have expected

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1579092.stm

Youtube Crap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHy5uWeViho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvihMBH_aA (Loose Change says that Muslims are forbidden to wear gold, that’s not true.)

Other Relevant Articles:
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011003crash1003p3.asp A large number of volunteers all attest to having helped clean up wreckage from Flight 93. In other words, there really was a plane crash even though the conspiracy theory claims that it was a controlled demolition and the plain never hit the building.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=66176 The Conspirascy theorists claim that Popular Mechanics, which wrote yet another of the many articles debunking the conspiracy theory was accused of being paid off by Michael Chertoff but…
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060903/11conspiracy.htm But that’s not true.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030225133807 A building only half the size of the world trade center required 100,000 engineers, 4,000 charges, and seven months of labor to demolish and these workers were not working in secret, did not have to avoid the massive crowds of people that occupy all the world trade center buildings, and did not have to murder thousands of people to get paid.

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0609/20060905_Tue_Stadtmiller.ram The production team behind the Loose Change Video also believe that the government has weather control

http://911myths.com/LooseChangeCreatorsSpeak.pdf Bernard Brown, who works for the Pentagon is a necessary official in order for the conspiracy to have taken place. Avery, who started the conspiracy theory, accuses him of being a part of the conspiracy. Bernard Brown’s son was one of the victims burned to death by flaming jet fuel on 9/11.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216643725166640147&hl=en The same thing as the last one except this one is audio.
http://loosechange911.com/ Dylan Avery, who started the theory, admits that he was trying to write an x-files style fictional screenplay when he produced Loose Change. Interestingly enough, a series branched off from the x-files (centered around side characters in the x-files,) had the exact same story line. The Lone Gunmen uncovered a conspiracy of the government to crash planes into the world trade centers.

http://www.salon.com/src/pass/sitepass/spon/sitepass_website.html Avery didn’t claim that his fictional x-files based screen play had any element of truth until he was paid by Phillip Jayhan to do so.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1656940/posts Phillip Jayhan, who paid Avery to release his fictional screenplay as a real theory also believes:

is run by a massive satanic cult that enslaves prominent politicians by delivering kidnapped boys for them to molest and then blackmailing them about it later.




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Posted 7/19/09 , edited 7/19/09
Well muslim men are in fact forbidden to wear gold at least this is what I was taught. I dont think it matters with women. I havent been through all the links but I am read them I have many that refutes those as well especially popular mechanics.

Like I said this video is just a gateway to get you to do more research on the topic. I think the best way to end this whole topic about it being an inside job or not just have a debate. Rather then just calling people loony and conspiracy theorist get three of the most knowledgeable people on both sides of the issue and have a moderator. Broadcast it live for the world to see and that way we can hear both sides of the story at the same time. I believe it was an inside job based on the evidence I read vs the government but I completly understand why some people would take the governments story as well. I like the "Que Buno?" (who benefits more) approach from 9-11 the terrorist who done it or the US government? 9-11 was a gateway to a lot of things in the middle east.
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Posted 7/19/09 , edited 7/19/09

drizza wrote:

Well muslim men are in fact forbidden to wear gold at least this is what I was taught. I dont think it matters with women. I havent been through all the links but I am read them I have many that refutes those as well especially popular mechanics.

Like I said this video is just a gateway to get you to do more research on the topic. I think the best way to end this whole topic about it being an inside job or not just have a debate. Rather then just calling people loony and conspiracy theorist get three of the most knowledgeable people on both sides of the issue and have a moderator. Broadcast it live for the world to see and that way we can hear both sides of the story at the same time. I believe it was an inside job based on the evidence I read vs the government but I completly understand why some people would take the governments story as well. I like the "Que Buno?" (who benefits more) approach from 9-11 the terrorist who done it or the US government? 9-11 was a gateway to a lot of things in the middle east.


They already did that on CNN. Popular Mechanics and some of the people behind Loose Change argued the topic and popular mechanics won out. But again, my biggest attack on the idea that it was demolition is that such an operation would just required too much time, effort, and most of all money. The bribes alone would require no less than five trillion dollars simply because you would have to have so many people, many of which already very wealthy, involved.
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Posted 7/19/09
Well I seen some CNN and Fox small debates but it is more of just attacks towards the person who doesnt agree with the government story then a debate. i seen the Loose Change and the PM guys go at it on Democracy now but I am talking about smart guys you know like your scholars, people who specializes in the field to debate not some college students. My friend The Ansar is better at the 9-11 thing then I am so I wont comment any further all I know is from what I read I just cant go with the governments story and I haven't seen to much evidence involving the people making these vids getting billions of dollars. Why would you sacrifice everything you have just to make a fool out of yourself? Anyways if I can get Ansar back on here he is better then me with this topic.
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Posted 7/19/09 , edited 7/19/09

drizza wrote:

Well I seen some CNN and Fox small debates but it is more of just attacks towards the person who doesnt agree with the government story then a debate. i seen the Loose Change and the PM guys go at it on Democracy now but I am talking about smart guys you know like your scholars, people who specializes in the field to debate not some college students. My friend The Ansar is better at the 9-11 thing then I am so I wont comment any further all I know is from what I read I just cant go with the governments story and I haven't seen to much evidence involving the people making these vids getting billions of dollars. Why would you sacrifice everything you have just to make a fool out of yourself? Anyways if I can get Ansar back on here he is better then me with this topic.


What do you mean sacrifice everything and look like a fool? Dylan Avery was a teenaged aspiring movie director doing construction work just to keep himself buoyed before he wrote Loose Change. He originally started writing the 9/11 conspiracy theory as a fictional screenplay plagiarized from the x-file’s spin off theory “Lone Gunmen,” in order to impress James Gondolfini.

However, after being turned aside by Gondolfini James was approached by Phillip Jayhan who believes that the world is run by a massive satanic cult that enslaves prominent politicians by kidnapping young boys for them to molest. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1656940/posts) And while that’s probably true, the fact is that he –paid- Avery to release his fictional screenplay (designed to be a convincing movie plot,) as a real theory. (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/index1.html)

Now, still in his early twenties, he’s produced a ‘documentary,’ that’s been seen by over a hundred million viewers, and does daily interviews with prominent groups like Salon (http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/index1.html) and Time Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html)

So, he didn’t sacrifice anything. And he apparently has quite a few people convinced so he didn’t look like an idiot, just a brilliant con and a talented writer. But, if you ignore all that then why would he go through all of this if it wasn’t true? Well, ignoring all the money and everything if you answer these questions:


Why do people have blogs? Why do people line up for American Idol auditions? Why is Hollywood full of food service workers dreaming of stardom? Where do Japanese game shows get their contestants?


You’ll have answered your own question.


Naturally I stole this entire post from: http://www.cracked.com/article_15740_was-911-inside-job.html
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Posted 7/19/09
I am not worried about Dylan Avery the person who written loose change he was just the door opener for me. I am talking about the science professors, Architects & Engineers, the ones working at college universities loosing their jobs, being called loonies for speaking otherwise. These are the people I am talking about. I want to see these guys debate rather then those two college students who created that movie. Loose change isn't the only movie out there but it was the doorway that opened up and got people thinking. My opinion wont change on this issue and yours wont either most likely I know if I can get Ansar on here he will easily refute everything like he done on the last 9-11 thread. I just wish the mainstream can have a serious debate about this issue just like how it can be done on the forums.
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Posted 7/19/09

drizza wrote:

I am not worried about Dylan Avery the person who written loose change he was just the door opener for me. I am talking about the science professors, Architects & Engineers, the ones working at college universities loosing their jobs, being called loonies for speaking otherwise. These are the people I am talking about. I want to see these guys debate rather then those two college students who created that movie. Loose change isn't the only movie out there but it was the doorway that opened up and got people thinking. My opinion wont change on this issue and yours wont either most likely I know if I can get Ansar on here he will easily refute everything like he done on the last 9-11 thread. I just wish the mainstream can have a serious debate about this issue just like how it can be done on the forums.


My minds free to change the instant I find some real evidence that it was a demolition or that the American government was in any way involved. Alas, through all my research I haven’t found anything even remotely convincing. And if your friend can refute those professional articles I posted, put in place not by these college kids and conspiracy buffs, then I’ll be impressed.
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Posted 7/20/09
Anyone here heard about Gulf Of Tonkin incident that led the invasion of Vietnam, and the Operation Northwoods which plans for the invasion of Cuba?

2 staged False-Flag events.
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Posted 7/21/09 , edited 7/21/09

Yei wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:

The government hasn’t been secretive with 9/11 at all. Do you know how many independent and international engineers have investigated the official report? I don’t see how they can clandestine this any further than they already have. Maybe there was something suspicious going on, but there’s no evidence that we took down our own tower.


Where can I read the clearest official explanation of what exactly happened? There's a lot of things I have yet to hear explanations for, maybe all this suspicion just comes from ignorance.


You may actually just want to read the official 9/11 commission report. I wanted to link that to my last post but I couldn’t because I cannot seem to find it in any format that didn’t involve adobe flash player. You can’t actually link adobe documents here, there’s no URL. Well, maybe you can but I don’t know how. Anyway, I’m adding this post in because I did at least manage to find an audio version of it. I can also e-mail you the official written document as an attachment. You’ll have to download this audio if you want to listen, but here it is: http://librivox.org/the-911-commission-report-by-the-911-commission/

More Documents:
http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/05/19/askthepilot186/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-27-conspiracies-sept-11_x.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4990686.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/feb/06/comment.film
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Posted 7/21/09

drizza wrote:

I am not worried about Dylan Avery the person who written loose change he was just the door opener for me. I am talking about the science professors, Architects & Engineers, the ones working at college universities loosing their jobs, being called loonies for speaking otherwise. These are the people I am talking about. I want to see these guys debate rather then those two college students who created that movie. Loose change isn't the only movie out there but it was the doorway that opened up and got people thinking. My opinion wont change on this issue and yours wont either most likely I know if I can get Ansar on here he will easily refute everything like he done on the last 9-11 thread. I just wish the mainstream can have a serious debate about this issue just like how it can be done on the forums.


Here’s a link that contains video footage of a debate between two officials from Popular Mechanics and some conspiracy theorists. Aside from Dylan Avery the “truth,” movement also has a James Bermas. James is the researcher hired to dig up information for Loose Change. He also hosts a radio talk show, The Info Warrior. In addition he is the guest host for the Alex Jones Show. He’s pretty much the only professional researcher who believes this, so that’s the closest you’re going to get to finding a professional engineer who argues for the 9/11 conspiracy. It’s also probably fair sense the main guy on the other side is just the executive director of a magazine. Anyway, here’s the link.

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/9/11/exclusive_9_11_debate_loose_change
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Posted 7/21/09
Hey democracy now I like that show in fact I am watching it right now on Link TV. Anyways I have seen that one and thats the one I was mentioning with the two PM guys vs the college students. I want to see people like thishttp://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html debate PM. There is a book out there that refutes all of PM. My friend the Ansar refuted PM (he is a physics teacher) if you read the last response here http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-181651/was-september-11-an-inside-job-by-the-us/?pg=14 and the next page answers some tough questions. The problem is like I said Loose Change was just an eye opener we dont look to those guys as the know it alls of the issue I rather look to people with degree's.
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Posted 7/21/09

illincrux wrote:

The object of this disscusion is to over analyze or debunk what has been said in ZEITGEIST.

It takes an incredible amount of research of the topics that are listed within the movies so if you are not prepared for it, you may not be taken seriously.

For all it's worth, I hope for us as a whole to find truth within these documentaries in the most broadest of terms....

Rules of the discussion:

Pick a section and either debunk it or support it.

The links:

ZEITGEIST: ADDENDUM: (Newest)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

"ZEITGEIST: THE MOVIE (Watch first)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197


Please keep all of your opinions completely neutral from one another in terms of not instigating a fight.

In one way or another, everyone is valid...

*listing respected resources is a PLUS!!!

[edit]

And yes, you can challenge one another using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
There is NO discrimination on finding facts so long as they're facts that you've thoroughly scrutinized...That means, checking out other resources other than wikipedia...


Something I’ve noticed now that I’m actually (slowly,) watching the video is that Horus is not the sun god. Horus was the sky god. He’s considered god of the sun, over the sun, because the sun is contained in the sky. The Egyptians and Sumerians believed that Horus’ right eye was the sun and his left eye the moon. Also, they didn’t give credit to the creation to the sun. The Egyptians believe that in the beginning there was Nu or Nun, which is of course just water. From this churning mass of water all life, including the sun, was born. Also, Jesus did not begin his work at thirty. He began his work at thirty three. This is interesting because 33 is also a significant year for Muhammad and Siddhartha Gautama. The video also makes a claim that Jews blow the rams horn in honor of Moses who represents the Ram. But blowing the rams horn didn’t begin until thousands of years after Moses. This tradition began with Kabbalah, a mystic movement amongst the Jews that began in the medieval ages under the exegesis of the a rabbinical traditions. The rabbi of course didn't begin until after the Pharisees ended. They didn't end until they were destroyed by the Romans. They weren't destroyed until AFTER Christ.

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