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The Power of a Documentary
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Posted 8/8/09

leilockheart wrote:

supposedly, documentaries are:

adj.

1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

n., pl. -ries.

A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.

adj

Definition: factual
Antonyms: fictional


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Documentaries are really informative and helpful. It presents facts in a more creative yet controlled manner.

However, if a certain "documentary" is getting subjective, bias and opinionated, the documentary is a trash. well, good viewers know how to distinguish whether a documentary sucks or not. Just like how we determine a good movie from a waste one. BUT, if you dont know how to do this, then we have a problem.



Same could be said about the mainstream media eh?
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Posted 8/8/09

drizza wrote:


yes. ü
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Posted 8/8/09 , edited 8/8/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

well one documentary isnt enough. people need to watch different documentaries to supplement and compare information . Good scholars dont rely on a single book/documentary/article/periodical/essay/etc. They know how to evaluate, measure and assess the quality and significance of what they are reading or watching. They also know how to question the validity of the information presented to them. Thus, the essence of philosophy, questioning everything even if it is considered true.. (off-topic)

And documentaries arent all the same. Some are good, some are lame.. so we can never generalize and make a conclusion against documentaries. In the first place, the lame documentaries are the minority. (my assumption only) Just be careful on the documentaries you are watching.

Thats all..ü
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Posted 8/8/09

leilockheart wrote:
well one documentary isnt enough. people need to watch different documentaries to supplement and compare information . Good scholars dont rely on a single book/documentary/article/periodical/essay/etc. They know how to evaluate, measure and assess the quality and significance of what they are reading or watching. They also know how to question the validity of the information presented to them. Thus, the essence of philosophy, questioning everything even if it is considered true.. (off-topic)

And documentaries arent all the same. Some are good, some are lame.. so we can never generalize and make a conclusion against documentaries. In the first place, the lame documentaries are the minority. (my assumption only) Just be careful on the documentaries you are watching.

Thats all..ü


Right, and if everyone followed those rules then there would be no issue whatsoever. I’m just worried because we hold documentaries in such high esteem that we don’t feel the need to question them even if they seem to have an agenda. Any documentary ever done by Moore is a perfect example. So, documentaries are still powerful tools for deceiving and confusing the masses.
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Posted 8/8/09 , edited 8/8/09
Documentaries suck, end of story.

Especially those Ken Burns one; Holy jesus batman, talk about hours of boredom.
Yei
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Posted 8/8/09 , edited 8/8/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

For the Bible Tells Me So: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04AVRslVRbY&feature=PlayList&p=5AF735132EB1CEC6&index=0

Has an epic intro^

Jesus Camp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujS6URPcSUc

Deliver Us From Evil: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7745088455537169028&ei=FUFmStrSCKWgqgL45OSLAQ&hl=en (bad quality, but it shouldn't really be a problem)

tell me if you want any others


Alright, that’s two down. I wasn’t as impressed with Jesus Camp. I don't think those people were all that extreme or dangerous. Though more than once they really freaked me out. They would be talking about something completely normal and then hurtle a ball of radical weirdness at you. "Lord bless our food and END ABORTION!" "Sin can run your life if you let it. And speaking of which HARRY POTTER IS THE ENEMY OF GOD! HE SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH!"

One thing I would like to ask...did Ted Haggard seem a bit jealous and rude about Levi preaching? I really have trouble liking that guy...

Global warming is real, creationism is silly, gays have rights, we're a secular society, abortion should be illegal in almost all cases...you know how I feel about all that.

All and all I don’t think that was too alarming.



If it was just one camp and a few dozen kids who were being brainwashed like that I don't think it would be a big problem. But it's a huge group of people with this insane mentality, that's a little alarming. What did you think of the "Holy Spirit" moments? My Christian friend got offended when I said they didn't seem genuine lol. He says that's what happens when you have a spiritual experience, and it even happens with 6 year olds. And what about the kids being "born again" at 5 years old? And I loved the praying over the computer and sound equipment lol, and I'm pretty sure that creepy abortion guy is a pedophile.

idk, Ted Haggard seemed like he was in a hurry to go meet with his gay prostitutes. And btw, it was a complete coincidence that they just happened to record him talking about homosexuality and making those "I know what you did last night" jokes, one month later he was discovered. Coincidences like that make me believe in God more lol

Richard Dawkins meets Ted Haggard and tries to educate him a little, look at how nice and not arrogant he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr0RgqxadTI

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Posted 8/8/09 , edited 8/8/09

Yei

If it was just one camp and a few dozen kids who were being brainwashed like that I don't think it would be a big problem. But it's a huge group of people with this insane mentality, that's a little alarming. What did you think of the "Holy Spirit" moments? My Christian friend got offended when I said they didn't seem genuine lol. He says that's what happens when you have a spiritual experience, and it even happens with 6 year olds. And what about the kids being "born again" at 5 years old? And I loved the praying over the computer and sound equipment lol, and I'm pretty sure that creepy abortion guy is a pedophile.

idk, Ted Haggard seemed like he was in a hurry to go meet with his gay prostitutes. And btw, it was a complete coincidence that they just happened to record him talking about homosexuality and making those "I know what you did last night" jokes, one month later he was discovered. Coincidences like that make me believe in God more lol

Richard Dawkins meets Ted Haggard and tries to educate him a little, look at how nice and not arrogant he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr0RgqxadTI



Well, the video was a good demonstration of something I firmly believe. That religion, if not true, is simply a form of learned insanity. Assuming God does not exist, then I have a warped view of reality because I perceive forces to be at work within me that are not real; therefore, I’m a lunatic. A lot of Christians get offended by this opinion, and in fact I would very much like to defend my sanity; nevertheless, this seems to be a simple truth to me. You educate a child to perceive the world in a manor at odds with reality and they develop a warped view OF reality. Thus, if we assume religion's falsehood, these people are simply nuts.

I agree with you about the weirdo. “You look good with that tape on your mouth!” I couldn’t believe he said that. It sent shudders down my spines, he sounded like Father Murphy. Anyway, what don’t these people understand about the separation of church and state?

Anyway, I can’t really speak for the children. My family wasn’t very religious when I was growing up. I mean, my mother and the man who raised me were both Christians, but we didn’t go to church. I knew basic bible stories pretty early, but that was mostly because my zealous grandmother. After we moved away from her I didn’t really know much anything about the bible. What I did know is that anytime I did something bad my parents pulled it out and that made me hate it. Then, when cruel kids used their childish view of Christianity to humiliate me at school and in public all the time, I really grew to hate religion. I stopped believing in God and if he did exist I hated him. I later grew out of the phase. I started out deistic and somehow wound up becoming a mystic. I used to cite my ‘atheism,’ to make myself look more open minded, but really I think it was just a phase that many children go through…

Whatever the case, after ‘converting,’ back to Christianity I was already about thirteen or fourteen, and I was born again shortly thereafter. Now, I feel that I had a religious experience then. Looking back, however, if I saw a kid who was thirteen come rushing up telling me all these stories about how he felt God touch him I’d probably assume he was playing make believe. So, what I’m saying is that it’s not really fair to immediately discredit them just because they’re children.

Honestly, to me it appeared a lot of what they did and said was just programmed into them. They were children repeating what they heard from their parents. I don’t –know- this, however. Perhaps they really did have a religious experience. I see no reason to think it’s impossible.

As far as Ted and Rich go, I think we both know Richard is by far Ted’s intellectual superior. I also don’t know that I’m convinced Richard is arrogant. I can see why he might appear to be so, however. I do think Ted is arrogant. Besides, I happen to like Richard. I don’t really agree with his theological statements--I think he misunderstands Christianity as it was meant to be an only perceives Christianity as the conservatives portray it. Still, his science is essentially flawless. He’s pretty straight to the facts.
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Posted 8/8/09 , edited 8/8/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei

If it was just one camp and a few dozen kids who were being brainwashed like that I don't think it would be a big problem. But it's a huge group of people with this insane mentality, that's a little alarming. What did you think of the "Holy Spirit" moments? My Christian friend got offended when I said they didn't seem genuine lol. He says that's what happens when you have a spiritual experience, and it even happens with 6 year olds. And what about the kids being "born again" at 5 years old? And I loved the praying over the computer and sound equipment lol, and I'm pretty sure that creepy abortion guy is a pedophile.

idk, Ted Haggard seemed like he was in a hurry to go meet with his gay prostitutes. And btw, it was a complete coincidence that they just happened to record him talking about homosexuality and making those "I know what you did last night" jokes, one month later he was discovered. Coincidences like that make me believe in God more lol

Richard Dawkins meets Ted Haggard and tries to educate him a little, look at how nice and not arrogant he is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr0RgqxadTI



Well, the video was a good demonstration of something I firmly believe. That religion, if not true, is simply a form of learned insanity. Assuming God does not exist, then I have a warped view of reality because I perceive forces to be at work within me that are not real; therefore, I’m a lunatic. A lot of Christians get offended by this opinion, and in fact I would very much like to defend my sanity; nevertheless, this seems to be a simple truth to me. You educate a child to perceive the world in a manor at odds with reality and they develop a warped view OF reality. Thus, if we assume religion's falsehood, these people are simply nuts.

I agree with you about the weirdo. “You look good with that tape on your mouth!” I couldn’t believe he said that. It sent shudders down my spines, he sounded like Father Murphy. Anyway, what don’t these people understand about the separation of church and state?

Anyway, I can’t really speak for the children. My family wasn’t very religious when I was growing up. I mean, my mother and the man who raised me were both Christians, but we didn’t go to church. I knew basic bible stories pretty early, but that was mostly because my zealous grandmother. After we moved away from her I didn’t really know much anything about the bible. What I did know is that anytime I did something bad my parents pulled it out and that made me hate it. Then, when cruel kids used their childish view of Christianity to humiliate me at school and in public all the time, I really grew to hate religion. I stopped believing in God and if he did exist I hated him. I later grew out of the phase. I started out deistic and somehow wound up becoming a mystic. I used to cite my ‘atheism,’ to make myself look more open minded, but really I think it was just a phase that many children go through…

Whatever the case, after ‘converting,’ back to Christianity I was already about thirteen or fourteen, and I was born again shortly thereafter. Now, I feel that I had a religious experience then. Looking back, however, if I saw a kid who was thirteen come rushing up telling me all these stories about how he felt God touch him I’d probably assume he was playing make believe. So, what I’m saying is that it’s not really fair to immediately discredit them just because they’re children.

Honestly, to me it appeared a lot of what they did and said was just programmed into them. They were children repeating what they heard from their parents. I don’t –know- this, however. Perhaps they really did have a religious experience. I see no reason to think it’s impossible.

As far as Ted and Rich go, I think we both know Richard is by far Ted’s intellectual superior. I also don’t know that I’m convinced Richard is arrogant. I can see why he might appear to be so, however. I do think Ted is arrogant. Besides, I happen to like Richard. I don’t really agree with his theological statements--I think he misunderstands Christianity as it was meant to be an only perceives Christianity as the conservatives portray it. Still, his science is essentially flawless. He’s pretty straight to the facts.


If the religion is not "true" is just learned insanity? I'm sure many religious people share that view, so it's a good thing their religion is true lol.

To me, if a five year old child who doesn't fully understand the physical world around him, much less understand religion, decides he is "born again," then it just means his brainwashing started very early in his life. If people really want to have a spiritual experience and feel the Holy Spirit, I'm sure they can make themselves believe they are. The Christian friend I was talking to said he felt some kind of spiritual experience when he went into a Buddhist temple in Japan (but he's Christian so why would he feel something there? it's all in their minds), I'm sure the atmosphere there and his mentality at the time made it feel like he was feeling something special, when in reality it was probably just a draft. I think indoctrinated religion in general is a mental disorder, not insanity, insanity is too harsh. They're sane, but like people who are bipolar or have OCD, they can't help but think in a certain way, even if they don't want to.

That's why many religious tend to stray away from religion in their teenage years, but eventually come back to it and try to justify it when they're older, it's the mental disorder that was inflicted on them when they were children kicking in. They would not turn to religion at alll if they were raised without it. People want to believe their religion is true so badly, they convince themselves it can be true and go to incredible lengths to justify it. In religion class we compared it to Hamlet seeing his father's ghost, now he can be rational and say that's impossible, but if he really is seeing it, then he has a reason to do what he wants. So he puts logic aside and forces himself to accept it because it gives him peace of mind. And that's human nature, I don't think there's anything really wrong with it, but you just need to justify your beliefs so that they don't do any harm. That's what's happening with these Holy Spirit experiences, they really want it, so they make it happen. It's very sad to see it happening with kids, they're messed up for life now.

Both Tedd and Richard are arrogant, but I was referring to Tedd being really arrogant and hypocritical, "I don't say 'look at me I'm so great', don't be arrogant.......if you'd met the people I have then you would be great like me." Then he runs off to his gay prostitutes and speed lol, I really love that guy.


btw, I cried alot while watching Deliver us from Evil, I think it's the most devastating and enraging documentary I've ever seen.
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Posted 8/9/09
I am a huge documentary fan. But I have to agree with older posts, Michael Moore isn't really the best person to look to for quality docs. It certainly inspires conversation, but there are much better, more well researched documentaries out there. Some I have really enjoyed include Wal-Mart: The High Cost of Low Price, Frontline's Ghosts of Rwanda, Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War on Journalism, Good Copy Bad Copy, The Power of Nightmares, Indoctrinate U, and others. John Pilfer's stuff is pretty good.
I've always been suspicious of docs that are commercialized. But I think a previous poster hit the nail on the head, you can't judge an entire genre like documentaries. There's so many different types of filming styles, presentation styles, topics, etc that it's really hard to commence judgement so broadly.
Good documentaries should try to have a broad variety of sources that support them, and to go the extra mile it might help to present a contrary point of view to the one you're presenting, but it isn't necessary. It certainly helps your credibility but it might serve to weaken your argument too much if it isn't strong enough. Sources should come from print media, scholarly sources, and other credible sources. You shouldn't be relying on racist news organizations or a lobby group for support.
Bad documentaries are really more for entertainment or to present a very narrow point of view. I include movies like Loose Change, Moore's films. They rely on bad sources, and downright lies in order to gain profits or views. I remember seeing Manufacturing Dissent, in which two filmmakers had started out in trying to defend and support Moore's films, mainly Roger and Me, and ended learning that a lot of things that discredited Moore. It was pretty disappointing and I recommend Manufacturing Dissent to anyone who is dissatified with Moore's films or even is a fan of his.
I've seen Jesus Camp, and as a Christian I was pretty enraged at the way these people were indoctrinating their children, and how they were mixing politics with religion. I'm going to try and watch some of the other ones, looks interesting.
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