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Post Reply People without religion
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08
if they encounter creation they SEE the power of God and they will possibly want to know what He is about. this question is what this thread is all about. so read some of the previous posts too.
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08
No, I have been saying God will send them the information, like missionaries, bibles, any way. If one desires he will teach.
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08
And I said that they didn't question, God is a just God. They didn't desire so nothing was sent.
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


digs wrote:

And I said that they didn't question, God is a just God. They didn't desire so nothing was sent.


Even if that were true how do you know you would have questioned if you were them? Perhaps they would have been saved if they were raised in you family neh? Anyway saying that all those people never questioned the universe is laughable since every tribal group in history has had some form of religion and that means they questioned the nature of creation and sought to explain it. So your argument that they never desired to understand the nature of the creation of the world is laughable and faintly ridiculous! In either case its still seems like your god gave them less of a chance to be saved than you so he is still playing the pre-damnation game.


If you're here to argue, please don't bother. But anywho, I'll tr to answer our question, because I won't bother trying to argue over you.
I don't think he meant that we shouldn't question everything, it's that you shouldn't question God or try to "test" him. Meaning, not to try to say..."What if god isn't real..." "what if god has forsaken us" ect. That's what God doesn't want us to do, the bible clearly states that god created all that is good, nature, ect.
But you're stating that they do question the creation, some people do question it, just to obtain more knowledge of it, but you should not doubt that God made it, he is God, and he made all that is good (like i said before). But after that, you said that God was giving us a less of a chance to be saved, which is COMPLETELY wrong, you have no idea how many chances God gives us, and will (future tense) give us. He loves us so much (cause he created us, duh) that he was willing to die on the cross for our sins (i won't go into that topic too much). Oh and I forgot to mention, just because you weren't born in a christian home, doesn't mean you won't be saved, as long as you "heard" of jesus, and you want to be saved, and you believe in him, then you can accept him, but if you HAVE heard of him, but denied the chance to be with him, then you'll fall into deep trouble.

Anyway aside from that, we should pray for the non-believers, they should have a chance to learn about God so they can be saved. I encourage you to go on mission's trip and help the non-believers. ^-^
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

Magnus102
First off I am one of those "non believers" . I take offense when you say not to question god for I feel that when you can not question your position on something that clearly it is very very weak. Those that can not question their faith in other words do not have much to start with. Overall I think you did not understand my argument at all and I do not wish to attempt to explain it again.


Well, that's your problem, not mine, so don't complain. It's not my fault you words are a tad bit confusing.

PS. It's not weak, it's called faith.
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08
I think it is impossible for someone to be without religion. Even Atheism is a religion in it's own right.
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:

I think it is impossible for someone to be without religion. Even Atheism is a religion in it's own right.


Atheism is not a religion and calling it one is laughable.


it's not called a religion because the government does not recognize it as a religion. However a key definition of a religion is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" And since Atheism has a findamental set of beliefs and practices it is a religion
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:

I think it is impossible for someone to be without religion. Even Atheism is a religion in it's own right.


Atheism is not a religion and calling it one is laughable.


it's not called a religion because the government does not recognize it as a religion. However a key definition of a religion is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" And since Atheism has a findamental set of beliefs and practices it is a religion


Thats is not what atheism is. It is a lack of belief in a higher power such as god. Thats it. Atheist can think that fairies,angels, Evangelions, ghosts, and anything else that is not a god is real and still be atheist. We are not a coherent group as much as we are simply a group of random people who do not think thats god is real. There is not way to practice atheism you are simply either an atheist or not.


Do you believe there is no God?
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:

I think it is impossible for someone to be without religion. Even Atheism is a religion in it's own right.


Atheism is not a religion and calling it one is laughable.


it's not called a religion because the government does not recognize it as a religion. However a key definition of a religion is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" And since Atheism has a findamental set of beliefs and practices it is a religion


Thats is not what atheism is. It is a lack of belief in a higher power such as god. Thats it. Atheist can think that fairies,angels, Evangelions, ghosts, and anything else that is not a god is real and still be atheist. We are not a coherent group as much as we are simply a group of random people who do not think thats god is real. There is not way to practice atheism you are simply either an atheist or not.


Do you believe there is no God?


I think there is no way to know for certain and so I do not believe in god as there is no evidence for his existence.


fair enough, but still, is there evidence he does not exist?
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Posted 1/13/08 , edited 4/18/08

magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:


magnus102 wrote:


RivrStyx wrote:

I think it is impossible for someone to be without religion. Even Atheism is a religion in it's own right.


Atheism is not a religion and calling it one is laughable.


it's not called a religion because the government does not recognize it as a religion. However a key definition of a religion is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" And since Atheism has a findamental set of beliefs and practices it is a religion


Thats is not what atheism is. It is a lack of belief in a higher power such as god. Thats it. Atheist can think that fairies,angels, Evangelions, ghosts, and anything else that is not a god is real and still be atheist. We are not a coherent group as much as we are simply a group of random people who do not think thats god is real. There is not way to practice atheism you are simply either an atheist or not.


Do you believe there is no God?


I think there is no way to know for certain and so I do not believe in god as there is no evidence for his existence.


fair enough, but still, is there evidence he does not exist?


By that logic I should also believe in Zeus as he has not been disproved. The burden of proof is on the person making a claim and not the one denying it and just because there is no way to prove god is not real is not reason to believe


that's where faith comes in.
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Posted 1/14/08 , edited 4/18/08

michibaby wrote:


Faeleia wrote:

^ No. Just believing that God exists doesn't just cut it. They need to know who died on the cross to pay for their judgement and sins, and believe it and act upon it. Satan knew the Bible better than us, he knew who was Jesus and God, and he is the god of the world. Doesn't mean he's saved. The worldy things belong to him, Jesus is God of heaven. Knowing and believing is different.



So are you saying Jewish people can't go to heaven? Since they believe in God, but not Jesus well nobody can say who can or cannot go in, because its up to God to decide.


Like I said, believing in that there is a god in the world does not cut it. What I mean that is God, not their idols they worship to. They have to believe that God sent Jesus to die on the cross FOR us, and if they believe in the same God we're talking about, the same Jesus we're talking about, and do not refute any part of Jesus' work on the cross, they'll be saved, unconditionally.


"There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:9-11)



Hitoli wrote:

What is better?

Doing something good because you want to go to heaven? Or doing something good because you want to do something good?

I'd say the second one. I live my life the way I think is right. I'm always nice to people, I try to help people as much as I can. I do not believe in God, and I don't believe in Heaven or Hell either. I'm just trying to be a good person because I feel comfortable being like that.

But you people say I'll go to Hell whatever I do? That makes me hate the idea of 'God' even more.


It's fine to do good for the sake of doing good. There is perfectly nothing wrong with that. I think there's some miscommunication as to what is being said here. People who believe at least, that there IS some God, somewhere, not necessarily our dear Father in heaven, but they acknowledge the idea that there IS a God, and they hope, or think, or try, by their own works, that is the mindset of 'doing good because then maybe God will allow me into heaven.' that's just throwing God's grace away. Grace is undeserved, unearned, unmerited. There's NO WAY to earn your way into heaven if you want to do it by your own. That's why if those who reject the idea that Jesus came to die for our sins, they have basically denied what had happened, and thus the grace covenant does not apply for them.

God loves every one of his creations, even if they hate him. When you experience that kind of love from God, then you'll naturally do good. It DOES not mean that because God will forgive you of every sin, so you become more evil so that more grace abounds. No!


"Do you not know that God's goodness is meant to lead you to repentence?" (Romans 1:4)


When we are born again, He gave us HIS heart of flesh, and a new spirit. That spirit is of love and patience and grace. It will change that person inwardly, so when they see people in need, they no longer think of their motives for doing good, they just do it because they have a heart that is of God.


Hitoli wrote:

Pride is a sin? I just scrolled through the 'Christian' thread, and everyone was like: 'I'm a Christian and proud of it!'

Ouch. Sinners.


He who boasts, let him boast of the Lord.


1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


I don't think you understand the English context here. 'Pride' we refer when we talk about sin, is selfishness. It's being proud because you feel you are superior than others by your own works.

'Being proud of' is simply what conrinthians said, boasting of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because we are boasting of our God, that being His children becomes an honour for us.

If you say 'I'm proud of my parents' doesn't mean you are selfishly proud, or your parents are prideful, it just means partaking in the joy and honour of being part of, and thus directing that honorific emotion to a person in particular, in which our case - Jesus.


magnus102 wrote:


digs wrote:

Neither, because doing something good to praise Jesus is best.

We don't go to heaven based on our actions, it's faith and forgiveness that gets us there. If we become born again, we will have the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is God dwelling within us. If we love God we will want to do good works to praise His name and make an impact on the world. People who think doing works gets you to heaven or hypocrites, because they are being self righteous thinking they are better then others because they do more. Self righteousness is pride, and pride is a sin.

And no one is pre-damned to hell, God loves everyone, he doesn't even want people to go to hell.
People can not go to heaven because they have sin, and there can be no sin in heaven. which is why God sent Jesus to die on the cross as a way to be forgiven from sin so we may enter heaven and have fellowship with God. God loves everyone, atheist, Muslim, Christian, whatever you are. And He wants to see everyone get saved so they can enter heaven and fellowship with him.


You are correct that according to Christian doctrine people who are saved are the ones who go to heaven. However I have a questions that I would like to pose to you about about your remark that no one is re-damned to hell. If someone grows up in the Amazon rain forest and never hears the word of god than would that person not qualify as pre-damned by god? Also when someone is raised say as a Muslim and all their family is Muslim and all they are taught is Muslim are they also essentially pre-damned as well? I assume you were raised in a Christian home since most people "inherit" faith. Would you not have equal faith in Islam if you were raised as a Muslim. By this we can see that god might have chosen you for salvation for being born into a Christian home and damned the others by having them be born in those places. I am interested to hear your response to this.


Did God not say that the rapture would only come after ALL has heard of the gospel? I urge you to familiarize yourself with the scriptures.


Signs of the Close of the Age
3As he sat on(C) the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him(D) privately, saying, "Tell us,(E) when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your(F) coming and of(G) the close of the age?" 4And Jesus answered them, (H) "See that no one leads you astray. 5For(I) many will come in my name, saying, 'I am(J) the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you(K) are not alarmed, for this(L) must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For(M) nation will rise against nation, and(N) kingdom against kingdom, and there will be(O) famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of(P) the birth pains.

9"Then(Q) they will deliver you up(R) to tribulation and(S) put you to death, and(T) you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then many will fall away[a] and(U) betray one another and hate one another. 11And many(V) false prophets will arise(W) and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased,(X) the love of many will grow cold. 13(Y) But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom(Z) will be proclaimed throughout the whole world(AA) as a testimony(AB) to all nations, and(AC) then the end will come.


God will not disqualify you because somehow in some unrelated part of the world you've never heard of something about God. God is God. He created the universe. What difficulty can making sure that everyone has heard of the gospel be to Him? What can, but a God who has never lost a promise nor made a mistake would start making such a glaring error?

Those who've heard, have to make a choice. If they choose to deny God, then they will be accountable according to their works.

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Posted 1/14/08 , edited 4/18/08
All those who have died already, are kept in sheol, and not hell. Hell is a place meant exclusively for fallen angels and Satan (would you like me to show you the scripture?)

Sheol is a holding place whereby all those who've died would eventually hold themselves accountable to God when Jesus arrives during the end times.

Even the old testament saints who believed in Christ are kept until Jesus paid for their sins, because they by their own works would not enable them to come before God, not before their sins have been borne upon by Christ on the Cross.

Christ died for ALL. The thing is not everyone would want to be saved, by rejecting Christ.

Christ on the cross was for the past, present, future. ALL sins, ever and would have in the future.

past------present------future

If it mattered not to God, He would have simply killed Satan, and wiped us all out, all of us of His creation, who've taken on the nature of Satan after the fruit of the tree of knowledge that adam and even ate, and started over with all his new people all like Jesus. But God is Love. To do that is not Love. He does not contradict Himself, neither does He prove himself unrighteous by lies and unfulfilled prophecies.

For ALL of us are great sinners, there's no way we can come before God without it meaning our own destruction regardless of whether God chose to destroy us or not. We simply cannot.

Please refer to those website for more info:
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/jesus_in_hell1.shtml
http://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/jesus_in_hell2.shtml


IN ACCORDANCE to your earlier comment about God's existence, Riverstyx is correct about that being faith. Your 5 senses will never enable you to find God. Just as how people take their whole lives trying to find the unconditional love they will never get from people, and either they keep trying, or they harden their hearts and disbelief that this idea even exists. People dont' feel a void for nothing. They are looking for something.
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