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the Yasukuni Shrine
Yei
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Posted 7/28/09 , edited 7/29/09
A couple summers ago my family and I went to Japan for two months and I checked out all the main attractions in Tokyo. The Yasukuni Shrine was one of them, it's a Shinto shrine for the spirits of Japanese soldiers and war heroes:




It's a really cool place where they have lots of different ceremonies and festivals to honor the people who died in wars.


But recently I've learned more about some of the people honored in this shrine. During WW2, as most people should know, Japan did some pretty evil things.

In Nanking, Japanese soldiers committed some of the worst war crimes imaginable. They started off by bombing the whole city for days and then moving in hundreds of soldiers. In just 42 days, they raped a total of 20,000-80,000 woman and killed 260,000-300,000 people.

To see the level of evil that the Japanese soldiers displayed in Nanking, look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Men, women and children were all tortured to death in horrifying ways. People were buried alive, mutilated, used for bayonet training, and the list of atrocities goes on.



After the war, the Tribunal found 25 Japanese leaders guilty of war crimes. 14 of these war criminals are memorialized and honored in the Yasukuni Shrine. This is because many Japanese people deny what happened in Nanking, or say it was greatly exaggerated (just like Holocaust deniers). And I actually remember watching a ceremony where Japanese nationalists honored the military efforts of Japan in the past and these war criminals. This would be like Germans having a memorial and honoring Nazi officers.

This denial of what happened in Nanking, and of all the other horrible things Japanese soldiers did in WW2 is a very common mentality in Japan.

This really made me mad: http://hnn.us/articles/14566.html



Despite overwhelming evidence of the nightmarish crimes committed by the Japanese Emperial Army, nationalistic Japanese politicians, textbooks, and newspapers, continue to deny that the Japanese committed atrocities against millions of innocent men, women and children. These lies constitute the second Rape of Nanking, and they come with a price: Those who do not learn from the past, are condemned to repeat it.


This is one Japanese history textbook's full reference to Nanking:


...many Chinese soldiers and civilians were killed or wounded by Japanese troops (the Nanking Incident). Documentary evidence has raised doubts about the actual number of victims claimed by the incident. The debate continues even today"


They don't even call it a massacre.




Japanese textbooks minimize war guilt and make no mention of Japanese war-time atrocities against millions of civilians. Is Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi recent "deep remorse and heartfelt apology" sufficient? Is it even honest?

On the same day he apologized members of his cabinet and more than 80 Japanese lawmakers visited Yasukuni Shrine, the bastion of emporer worship where Japanese war criminals are enshrined.


After the Prime Minister "apologizes" for what Japan did in WW2, they go to honor the people who committed the war crimes he's apologizing for?


My parents are some of the people that don't necessarily deny everything but just say it's very exaggerated. I have heard of this beforehand, but I never really learned all the facts until I looked it up myself, I don't think it was even mentioned in history class when we were learning about WW2. This should at least be briefly looked at in class the same way the Holocaust is, many people have never even heard of it and it makes it easier for people to deny it.

There should be people protesting what this shrine is doing, it's just disgusting. This is a really shameful side of Japan.

How much did you know about Nanking and Japan's attitude towards it's WW2 war crimes?
Posted 7/28/09
meh oh well all countries cover up there mistakes this is no suprise to me at all
Yei
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Posted 7/28/09

CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:

meh oh well all countries cover up there mistakes this is no suprise to me at all


I don't think all of them do. Especially when it comes to really huge mistakes. I don't think Germany denies the Holocaust or honors it's war criminals. And I remember learning about how Canada had concentration camps of it's own for Japanese people during WW2, in fact there was a huge section about all the bad things Canada did in WW2 in our textbook.
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Posted 7/28/09
In my university class they taught us about the Japanese war crimes in Nanking, Manchuria, the Philippines, and in other places as well. I know about these things but was never really taught them in high school. I think it's sad that they have a shrine honoring criminals and evil people. If they truly have an apologetic heart towards what Japan had done in the past, it would make them mad that something like this exists in their country.
Posted 7/28/09

Yei wrote:


CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:

meh oh well all countries cover up there mistakes this is no suprise to me at all


I don't think all of them do. Especially when it comes to really huge mistakes. I don't think Germany denies the Holocaust or honors it's war criminals. And I remember learning about how Canada had concentration camps of it's own for Japanese people during WW2, in fact there was a huge section about all the bad things Canada did in WW2 in our textbook.


well don't forget about America rounding up Japanese us citizens here and treating them badly after pearl harbor >.>, no country in this world does not have blood on it's hands.
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/29/09
Well, I’m not actually surprised. My bet is that most Japanese people don’t even know what happened with WWII. In Germany we were taught that there was a war, that we lost, and that we were the aggressors. We weren’t actually told about anything else, and while I was there a friend of my parents was arrested for looking up pictures of starved and gassed Jews at Auschwitz on google image search engine.

But something that bothers me as a German is that we –do- only focus on German war crimes. Yes, the Nazis were bad. But the slaughter of Jews was not the biggest massacre in modern history. Besides, America nuked two cities, the UK leveled several and at another point killed 10,000 Germans with a blast so loud that people in London heard it. Japan was terrible, Russia had pogroms, Italy’s fascist were…fascists, and really there was just all around evil in that time. I mean, during WWII America was injecting the African American community with STDS for experiments.
Yei
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/29/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, I’m not actually surprised. My bet is that most Japanese people don’t even know what happened with WWII. In Germany we were taught that there was a war, that we lost, and that we were the aggressors. We weren’t actually told about anything else, and while I was there a friend of my parents was arrested for looking up pictures of starved and gassed Jews at Auschwitz on google image search engine.

But something that bothers me as a German is that we –do- only focus on German war crimes. Yes, the Nazis were bad. But the slaughter of Jews was not the biggest massacre in modern history. Besides, America nuked two cities, the UK leveled several and at another point killed 10,000 Germans with a blast so loud that people in London heard it. Japan was terrible, Russia had pogroms, Italy’s fascist were…fascists, and really there was just all around evil in that time. I mean, during WWII America was injecting the African American community with STDS for experiments.


I thought Germany was especially against playing down the Holocaust and taught it very thoroughly. I've heard denying the Holocaust was a crime there. But now looking at pictures of Holocaust victims is a crime?

According to this it used to be taught very well: http://iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998-no-frames/holocaust-ed-in-germany.htm

But it only recently changed: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943953.html

This is interesting: "Out of fear of the students' reactions, many of the teachers avoid teaching this chapter of history in order to not be viewed by some students as supporters of Israel."


But at least Germany's not as bad as Japan. I'm sure many countries lie to their people about their history. But along with not teaching people what really happened, Japan is actually denying many of the things it did and honors it's war criminals.

Every country did bad things in wars but the worst thing any country can do is deny any of it or make excuses (like the US with it's torture). What I like about Canada is all the bad things we did is very clearly taught, like our Japanese concentration camps, we spent a long time discussing what one Japanese family's experience was in one of them.

And what's this about injecting black people with STDs??
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/29/09

A couple summers ago me and my family went to Japan for two months and I checked out all the main attractions in Tokyo. The Yasukuni Shrine was one of them, it's a Shinto shrine for the spirits of Japanese soldiers and war heroes:


My family and I. But every country that took part in WWII did some horrible things, some worse than others, and a few that went so far to hide it they just turned they're back on the truth.
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/29/09

Yei

I thought Germany was especially against playing down the Holocaust and taught it very thoroughly. I've heard denying the Holocaust was a crime there. But now looking at pictures of Holocaust victims is a crime?

According to this it used to be taught very well: http://iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1998-no-frames/holocaust-ed-in-germany.htm

But it only recently changed: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943953.html

This is interesting: "Out of fear of the students' reactions, many of the teachers avoid teaching this chapter of history in order to not be viewed by some students as supporters of Israel."


But at least Germany's not as bad as Japan. I'm sure many countries lie to their people about their history. But along with not teaching people what really happened, Japan is actually denying many of the things it did and honors it's war criminals.

Every country did bad things in wars but the worst thing any country can do is deny any of it or make excuses (like the US with it's torture). What I like about Canada is all the bad things we did is very clearly taught, like our Japanese concentration camps, we spent a long time discussing what one Japanese family's experience was in one of them.

And what's this about injecting black people with STDs??


Well, this may vary from region to region, but where I lived in Germany even the adults were almost completely clueless. So, it doesn’t appear to me that there was any point in at least the last two generations that people were being properly taught about the Holocaust.

Canada’s one of my favorite nations. You should be proud of your homeland.

But yes, The Public Health Service conducted a study from 1932-1972 in which hundreds of African American men were injected with syphilis. Look up the “Tuskegee Incident.” The ‘patients,’ (lab rats,) were not informed of being injected with syphilis. Many African Americans who already had syphilis were told they were clean. This caused massive outbreaks in African American communities. It’s the main reason syphilis is such a big deal in dominantly black regions, especially in Alabama. They supposedly wanted to use the study's findings to "justify treatment programs for blacks..."

See, this is one of the reasons I’m so infuriated about people saying that the African Americans don’t suffer from discrimination anymore. The fact that they make up less than 13% of our population but more than 70% of our prison population is proof enough of that, if the STDs aren’t.
Yei
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/31/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, this may vary from region to region, but where I lived in Germany even the adults were almost completely clueless. So, it doesn’t appear to me that there was any point in at least the last two generations that people were being properly taught about the Holocaust.

Canada’s one of my favorite nations. You should be proud of your homeland.

The American government conducted a study from 1932-1972 in which hundreds of African American men were injected with syphilis. Look up the “Tuskegee Incident.” The ‘patients,’ (lab rats,) were not informed of being injected with syphilis. Many African Americans who already had syphilis were told they were clean. This caused massive outbreaks in African American communities. It’s the main reason syphilis is such a big deal in dominantly black regions, especially in Alabama.

See, this is one of the reasons I’m so infuriated about people saying that the African Americans don’t suffer from discrimination anymore. The fact that they make up less than 13% of our population but more than 70% of our prison population is proof enough of that, if the STDs aren’t.


More importantly, the effects of slavery and segregation are still there. I recently watched this documentary called "Bloods and Crips: Made in America" where they do a very good job of showing why what was done to African Americans in the past is directly responsible for why there are so many problems in their communities today. And then the way the government deals with the problems just makes things worse.
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Posted 7/29/09

Yei wrote:


Akisame-sama wrote:


A couple summers ago me and my family went to Japan for two months and I checked out all the main attractions in Tokyo. The Yasukuni Shrine was one of them, it's a Shinto shrine for the spirits of Japanese soldiers and war heroes:


My family and I. But every country that took part in WWII did some horrible things, some worse than others, and a few that went so far to hide it they just turned they're back on the truth.


>_>


lol ok I'll change it.


But not many countries honor their worst war criminals in special shrines.


The shrine wasn't specifically for the war criminals, but other soldiers. You're always going to find evil people in a group of very brave soldiers, and I bet that there were some incredible people, but also some insanely horrible people, respected in the shrine.

And yes. yes i am.
Yei
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Posted 7/29/09 , edited 7/31/09

Akisame-sama wrote:


The shrine wasn't specifically for the war criminals, but other soldiers. You're always going to find evil people in a group of very brave soldiers, and I bet that there were some incredible people, but also some insanely horrible people, respected in the shrine.

And yes. yes i am.


Obviously the shrine wasn't built for war criminals, but the 14 war criminals they put in are not just common soldiers, they were "Class A" war criminals (the worst and most infamous). They were people who led and ordered this "Asian Holocaust," they didn't get in accidentally or anonymously with all the other common soldiers.
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Posted 7/29/09

Yei More importantly, the effects of slavery and segregation are still there. I recently watched this documentary called "Bloods and Crips: Made in America" where they do a very good job of showing why what was done to African Americans in the past is directly responsible for why there are so many problems in their communities today. And then the way the government deals with the problems just makes things worse.


Well, those are the major contributions. There’s also the incident in 1912 where Woodrow Wilson fired all the African Americans employed by the federal government. The Jim Crow Laws….There's a lot, and it bothers me that people pretend these don't hurt African American communities to this day. And it bothers me also that African Americans don't KNOW about this. They know descrimination is still in place, but don't realize how the persecution of their ancestors is still influencing them.
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Posted 7/30/09
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

It seems Wikipedia being hypocrite, well that's not news. We all know.
Too many controversy upon this matter. It might be true, also it might be a propaganda from China government to gain sympathy and for demanding ransom to Japanese. As I write below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Analysis_of_photographic_evidence
http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf in pdf. file
Look at the photos, some of them are really clearly ridiculous been edited.


Controversy of Nanking's Population before its fall



Found many gaffe in this article. http://hnn.us/articles/14566.html
one of them is.......



Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Documentary_film_by_John_Magee


Magee heard about this horrible crime from the 7-8 year old girl who had been bayoneted but survived and told the whole story two weeks after the crime. Magee wrote that he had recorded this story, adding some corrections to what the girl told him with the help of her relatives and neighbors. Magee thought that these 30 soldiers had been Japanese; however, Higashinakano claims that these ”30 soldiers” were in fact Chinese, not Japanese.

On December 8 every citizen was forced to move to the Safety Zone by the Chinese army. The family in the story were outside the Zone. It was most dangerous and highly unlikely that they were outside it on December 13 when the Japanese military were entering the city. It is thus very likely that the crime was actually committed before December 8 or 13 by Chinese soldiers. In addition, the killing practice of thrusting items into females' vagina was, according to Higashinakano, typically Chinese, not Japanese


This photo was published with three others in the China Weekly Review, on 22 October 1938, with the following caption : "A Japanese officer surveys the results of brutal butchery of Chinese civilians by Nipponese troops at Hsuchow." One of the other photos was "a grotesque exhibition of Chinese skulls, placed by playful Japanese soldiers at Nanking."..... continue



Continuation...... Higashinakano points out that the supposed Japanese soldier standing by wears the military uniform with a turned-down collar with class badges on it and that this style was not introduced until after the uniform revision on June 1, 1938. Denialists also assert that the photo does not tell how they were killed, in massacre or in battle, and also point out that there were many Chinese soldiers in mufti.


On what purpose, if it true that Chinese did it to killed their own men?

It because of ODA (Official Development Assistance). from Japanese government to Chinese government
ODA basically an aid to developing countries from developed country. Its purposes are to build the needed country to manufacture its poor sector, reducing famine and helps poor people to survive or make their own food.

But in Japan-China ties, it's different. The purpose is all same, but the reasons why ODA given by Japanese gov is based on historiy, thus blamed to war. To pressure Japanese gov giving China more ODA than the necessary amounts.

http://angrychineseblogger.blog-city.com/tokyo_to_seek_dialog_over_ending_war_reparations_to_china.htm
Written by Chinese. As the blog told us.

http://chinaperspectives.revues.org/document358.html

We couldn't claim this i true or not, whether the one whom oppose the incident or the one whom exaggerated the incident.
As the truth has been buried and manipulated by some governments, not only China or Japan. But also outside that, for political gain or better relations towards one of both sides, Japan and China.

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Posted 7/30/09


Yei wrote:



Japanese textbooks minimize war guilt and make no mention of Japanese war-time atrocities against millions of civilians. Is Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi recent "deep remorse and heartfelt apology" sufficient? Is it even honest?

On the same day he apologized members of his cabinet and more than 80 Japanese lawmakers visited Yasukuni Shrine, the bastion of emporer worship where Japanese war criminals are enshrined.


After the Prime Minister "apologizes" for what Japan did in WW2, they go to honor the people who committed the war crimes he's apologizing for?


There should be people protesting what this shrine is doing, it's just disgusting. This is a really shameful side of Japan.

How much did you know about Nanking and Japan's attitude towards it's WW2 war crimes?


I personally think, there's nothing wrong for a leader of a country to honor its national heroes. Especially, those who defended the country at the past from invader. Actually we need that respect to our ancestor for building nationalism in teenager. Like the honorary, French to Napoleon Bonaparte, US to Washington, Mongol to Genghis Khan, and many other honorary given from the citizens of the country to their hero.

However in Japan's case, such act would arouse the tension with many countries that invaded by Japanese army. I also opposed the act by Koizumi-san while in the middle of tense situation. It won't be have high attention if he did it hidden and kept it low. Or doing it at night and no reporters along with him.

Actually, despite the tragedy in Nanking are true like it written or not. Japan has issued apology statements to the nations which Japan invaded to. And of course ODA, while Japanese suffering from their gigantic debt. For your Info, Japan is the nation that has most debt in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Have been said that, I do not try to defend Japan.
As my country also one of the invaded country by Japan. My ancestor were brought to train which is said will bring them to 'new place' without war, hunger and poor. But soon, Japanese put the poison gas into the train which caused massive death to my ancestors.

What I want to trying to say is....
we know the past of humanity has been tainted by massive blood and numerous sins by all kinds of humans, whatever nation, belief, races and gender as well. That's the fact of bloody history which been born by ourself.

Thus what's the point bringing up the matter again? It just for increasing hates in our next generations.
I know, scientist like to proven the history. That's for knowledge purpose, other than that I don't see anything benefit for the world. Only for the certain nation, for example ODA case.

My country also suffered badly enough by Japanese. But I really doubt any of the youngster or people around 50-60 hold grudges against Japanese, in fact they enjoy its culture that been introduced by Japanese Ministry as SOFT POWER in 20th century. And I admit, I've been defeated by Japan's soft power and my defeat give love to the country, Japan. As a respected and honorable country, my nation and Japan been worked together very well until today...

If the all the victim's nations can feel the same, i think it won't be long for peace to be arisen.
not only in Nanking or Japan's invasion but also to the rest of the tragedy in the past.

tl;dr = Peace upon all humanity.
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