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the Yasukuni Shrine
Posted 7/30/09
Subjectivism anyone?
Plus, ever noticed how a lot of folks have issues admitting that they made a mistake? Instead of admitting to it they're trying to find excuses or blame someone else...not very surprising, if you ask me. However I'll admit that the Japanese take it a bit to the extreme, but knowing their life philosophies it really doesn't surprise me either.
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/31/09

Japan's war crimes and what it did in Nanking are very well documented. George Fitch was one of the leading recorders of what happened, he took pictures and video documenting many of the atrocities and smuggled them into the US despite the Japanese attempts to keep everything a secret. There's enough evidence from all the reports and first hand accounts of foreigners and Chinese, Japanese soldiers (and the general of the Japanese army there at the time) and the evidence found in Nanking after the war.

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal concluded that the death toll was well over 200,000 (and the safety zone set up saved an estimated 250,000). Nanking was China's capital at the time, saying it's population was just 200,000 is ridiculous. We have enough reason to trust all the conclusions these trials came to as we do the Nuremberg Trials. So denying the atrocities of Nanking would be the equivalent of Holocaust denial.
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/31/09


No, there's nothing wrong for a leader of a country to honor its national heroes. But there's something wrong with honoring it's most evil war criminals.

What happened in Nanking is considered to be part of Japan's "Asian Holocaust." Now if the Holocaust was being denied by Germany and if Nazis and Hitler were being memorialized and ceremonies condoned by the government were being held to honor them, I would see something wrong with that. I wouldn't say ''oh well, there's no point in bringing up the past,'' I'd be furious that some of the most evil people are being honored and that excuses were being made for the worst crimes of the century. If the apologies were sincere, I doubt they would continue lying about everything Japan did in WW2 in their schools and continue honoring their worst war criminals.

I'm Japanese, and personally, I think Japan is the best country in the world right now. But at the same time, it especially bothers me when people in Japan have this arrogant mentality and don't even know about their country's history. Peace can never come between Japan and the countries it hurt if it continues to deny what it did to them and make heroes of it's war criminals.
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09

Yei wrote:



Japan's war crimes and what it did in Nanking are very well documented. George Fitch was one of the leading recorders of what happened, he took pictures and video documenting many of the atrocities and smuggled them into the US despite the Japanese attempts to keep everything a secret. There's enough evidence from all the reports and first hand accounts of foreigners and Chinese, Japanese soldiers (and the general of the Japanese army there at the time) and the evidence found in Nanking after the war.

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal concluded that the death toll was well over 200,000 (and the safety zone set up saved an estimated 250,000). Nanking was China's capital at the time, saying it's population was just 200,000 is ridiculous. We have enough reason to trust all the conclusions these trials came to as we do the Nuremberg Trials. So denying the atrocities of Nanking would be the equivalent of Holocaust denial.


The controversy of that version of Nanking also very well documented.
http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf
Hundreds of pages are here, including the fake photos suspected Chinese made so Japanese took the fault and blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Analysis_of_photographic_evidence

Yes, Japanese did horrible thing in Nanking but not too exaggerated as the news reported, everyone knows that, no one will against that fact. The suspected Chinese did it because of ODA as I mentioned above.



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Posted 7/30/09

Yei wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

I personally think, there's nothing wrong for a leader of a country to honor its national heroes. Especially, those who defended the country at the past from invader. Actually we need that respect to our ancestor for building nationalism in teenager. Like the honorary, French to Napoleon Bonaparte, US to Washington, Mongol to Genghis Khan, and many other honorary given from the citizens of the country to their hero.

However in Japan's case, such act would arouse the tension with many countries that invaded by Japanese army. I also opposed the act by Koizumi-san while in the middle of tense situation. It won't be have high attention if he did it hidden and kept it low. Or doing it at night and no reporters along with him.

Actually, despite the tragedy in Nanking are true like it written or not. Japan has issued apology statements to the nations which Japan invaded to. And of course ODA, while Japanese suffering from their gigantic debt. For your Info, Japan is the nation that has most debt in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Have been said that, I do not try to defend Japan.
As my country also one of the invaded country by Japan. My ancestor were brought to train which is said will bring them to 'new place' without war, hunger and poor. But soon, Japanese put the poison gas into the train which caused massive death to my ancestors.

What I want to trying to say is....
we know the past of humanity has been tainted by massive blood and numerous sins by all kinds of humans, whatever nation, belief, races and gender as well. That's the fact of bloody history which been born by ourself.

Thus what's the point bringing up the matter again? It just for increasing hates in our next generations.
I know, scientist like to proven the history. That's for knowledge purpose, other than that I don't see anything benefit for the world. Only for the certain nation, for example ODA case.

My country also suffered badly enough by Japanese. But I really doubt any of the youngster or people around 50-60 hold grudges against Japanese, in fact they enjoy its culture that been introduced by Japanese Ministry as SOFT POWER in 20th century. And I admit, I've been defeated by Japan's soft power and my defeat give love to the country, Japan. As a respected and honorable country, my nation and Japan been worked together very well until today...

If the all the victim's nations can feel the same, i think it won't be long for peace to be arisen.
not only in Nanking or Japan's invasion but also to the rest of the tragedy in the past.

tl;dr = Peace upon all humanity.


No, there's nothing wrong for a leader of a country to honor its national heroes. But there's something wrong with honoring it's most evil war criminals.

What happened in Nanking is considered to be part of Japan's "Asian Holocaust." Now if the Holocaust was being denied by Germany and if Nazis and Hitler were being memorialized and ceremonies condoned by the government were being held to honor them, I would see something wrong with that. I wouldn't say ''oh well, there's no point in bringing up the past,'' I'd be furious that some of the most evil people are being honored and that excuses were being made for the worst crimes of the century. If the apologies were sincere, I doubt they would continue lying about everything Japan did in WW2 in their schools and continue honoring their worst war criminals.

I'm Japanese, and personally, I think Japan is the best country in the world right now. But at the same time, it especially bothers me when people in Japan have this arrogant mentality and don't even know about their country's history. Peace can never come between Japan and the countries it hurt if it continues to deny what it did to them and make heroes of it's war criminals.


Yes, there is no point bringing up the past if that only caused the tension and hatred grows among the country involved. Especially to the next generations. The only results is world destruction.

True, what Minister Koizumi was wrong in all aspect. That's what I said cause more hatred to people of Chinese and other countries that had been invaded by Japanese.

The important thing is, if the victims accept the apologies of the war caused by Japanese, that'll open the new peace. Not only in Nanking, but also to the rest of the world.



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Posted 7/30/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:



Japan's war crimes and what it did in Nanking are very well documented. George Fitch was one of the leading recorders of what happened, he took pictures and video documenting many of the atrocities and smuggled them into the US despite the Japanese attempts to keep everything a secret. There's enough evidence from all the reports and first hand accounts of foreigners and Chinese, Japanese soldiers (and the general of the Japanese army there at the time) and the evidence found in Nanking after the war.

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal concluded that the death toll was well over 200,000 (and the safety zone set up saved an estimated 250,000). Nanking was China's capital at the time, saying it's population was just 200,000 is ridiculous. We have enough reason to trust all the conclusions these trials came to as we do the Nuremberg Trials. So denying the atrocities of Nanking would be the equivalent of Holocaust denial.


The controversy of that version of Nanking also very well documented.
http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf
Hundreds of pages are here, including the fake photos suspected Chinese made so Japanese took the fault and blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Analysis_of_photographic_evidence

Yes, Japanese did horrible thing in Nanking but not too exaggerated as the news reported, everyone knows that, no one will against that fact. The suspected Chinese did it because of ODA as I mentioned above.



People have also argued against what the Nuremberg Trials concluded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

By exaggerated do you mean they didn't kill that many people, or they didn't do some of the things they were accused of? We know what they did, burying people alive, torture and rape. So the death toll is the only thing that people can really claim to be exaggerated, right?




Yes, there is no point bringing up the past if that only caused the tension and hatred grows among the country involved. Especially to the next generations. The only results is world destruction.

True, what Minister Koizumi was wrong in all aspect. That's what I said cause more hatred to people of Chinese and other countries that had been invaded by Japanese.

The important thing is, if the victims accept the apologies of the war caused by Japanese, that'll open the new peace. Not only in Nanking, but also to the rest of the world.


They can't accept any apologies if they don't even acknowledge the truth of what was done to them and if they keep honoring the people who led the war crimes.
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Posted 7/30/09

Yei wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:


Japan's war crimes and what it did in Nanking are very well documented. George Fitch was one of the leading recorders of what happened, he took pictures and video documenting many of the atrocities and smuggled them into the US despite the Japanese attempts to keep everything a secret. There's enough evidence from all the reports and first hand accounts of foreigners and Chinese, Japanese soldiers (and the general of the Japanese army there at the time) and the evidence found in Nanking after the war.

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal concluded that the death toll was well over 200,000 (and the safety zone set up saved an estimated 250,000). Nanking was China's capital at the time, saying it's population was just 200,000 is ridiculous. We have enough reason to trust all the conclusions these trials came to as we do the Nuremberg Trials. So denying the atrocities of Nanking would be the equivalent of Holocaust denial.


The controversy of that version of Nanking also very well documented.
http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf
Hundreds of pages are here, including the fake photos suspected Chinese made so Japanese took the fault and blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Analysis_of_photographic_evidence

Yes, Japanese did horrible thing in Nanking but not too exaggerated as the news reported, everyone knows that, no one will against that fact. The suspected Chinese did it because of ODA as I mentioned above.



People have also argued against what the Nuremberg Trials concluded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

By exaggerated do you mean they didn't kill that many people, or they didn't do some of the things they were accused of? We know what they did, burying people alive, torture and rape. So the death toll is the only thing that people can really claim to be exaggerated, right?




Yes, there is no point bringing up the past if that only caused the tension and hatred grows among the country involved. Especially to the next generations. The only results is world destruction.

True, what Minister Koizumi was wrong in all aspect. That's what I said cause more hatred to people of Chinese and other countries that had been invaded by Japanese.

The important thing is, if the victims accept the apologies of the war caused by Japanese, that'll open the new peace. Not only in Nanking, but also to the rest of the world.


They can't accept any apologies if they don't even acknowledge the truth of what was done to them and if they keep honoring the people who led the war crimes.


The incidents of mass rape, torture and buried alive might be exaggerated as well. To show the cruelty of Japanese and to corner them.

Actually Japan already acknowledge for what happened in Nanking, but not to that extend (Massive rape, burning alive... etc)
Japan also has many apologies statement to the victim.

Yes, I think Japan should stop honoring them for now.
And it's the victim's obligation to accept their apologies, after all, Japan spent its money to them also as ODA (Official Development Assistance)

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Posted 7/31/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:


Japan's war crimes and what it did in Nanking are very well documented. George Fitch was one of the leading recorders of what happened, he took pictures and video documenting many of the atrocities and smuggled them into the US despite the Japanese attempts to keep everything a secret. There's enough evidence from all the reports and first hand accounts of foreigners and Chinese, Japanese soldiers (and the general of the Japanese army there at the time) and the evidence found in Nanking after the war.

The Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal concluded that the death toll was well over 200,000 (and the safety zone set up saved an estimated 250,000). Nanking was China's capital at the time, saying it's population was just 200,000 is ridiculous. We have enough reason to trust all the conclusions these trials came to as we do the Nuremberg Trials. So denying the atrocities of Nanking would be the equivalent of Holocaust denial.


The controversy of that version of Nanking also very well documented.
http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/26_S4.pdf
Hundreds of pages are here, including the fake photos suspected Chinese made so Japanese took the fault and blame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre_controversy#Analysis_of_photographic_evidence

Yes, Japanese did horrible thing in Nanking but not too exaggerated as the news reported, everyone knows that, no one will against that fact. The suspected Chinese did it because of ODA as I mentioned above.



People have also argued against what the Nuremberg Trials concluded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

By exaggerated do you mean they didn't kill that many people, or they didn't do some of the things they were accused of? We know what they did, burying people alive, torture and rape. So the death toll is the only thing that people can really claim to be exaggerated, right?




Yes, there is no point bringing up the past if that only caused the tension and hatred grows among the country involved. Especially to the next generations. The only results is world destruction.

True, what Minister Koizumi was wrong in all aspect. That's what I said cause more hatred to people of Chinese and other countries that had been invaded by Japanese.

The important thing is, if the victims accept the apologies of the war caused by Japanese, that'll open the new peace. Not only in Nanking, but also to the rest of the world.


They can't accept any apologies if they don't even acknowledge the truth of what was done to them and if they keep honoring the people who led the war crimes.


The incidents of mass rape, torture and buried alive might be exaggerated as well. To show the cruelty of Japanese and to corner them.

Actually Japan already acknowledge for what happened in Nanking, but not to that extend (Massive rape, burning alive... etc)
Japan also has many apologies statement to the victim.

Yes, I think Japan should stop honoring them for now.
And it's the victim's obligation to accept their apologies, after all, Japan spent its money to them also as ODA (Official Development Assistance)



We had fun killing Chinese. We caught some innocent Chinese and either buried them alive, or pushed them into a fire, or beat them to death with clubs. When they were half dead we pushed them into ditches and burned them, torturing them to death. Everyone gets his entertainment this way. Its like killing dogs and cats.
--Asahi Shimbun, Japanese soldier, describing Japanese atrocities during the Rape of Nanking.

There are many first hand accounts of what they did by surviving Chinese civilians, Japanese soldiers and foreigners.

If Japan acknowledges it, why does it not teach it in their schools? What Japan did in WW2 is a pretty significant part of their history. And why do they always try to play down what happened? They have made apology statements but they're meaningless if they are obviously insincere.

Yeah, the ODA is great and helps countries all over the world, but you just think they should stop honoring their most evil war criminals "for now"? I think they should have never honored them in the first place and it's shameful that they still are. I don't think any of their victims are obliged to accept any apologies until something is done about these criminals being honored and the truth not being taught in Japan.
Posted 7/31/09
I hope people do not care about Yasukuni Shrine, anymore.

It is not symbol of militarism or nationalism but almost forgotten shrine generally.
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Posted 7/31/09

vessel_of_soul wrote:

I hope people do not care about Yasukuni Shrine, anymore.

It is not symbol of militarism or nationalism but almost forgotten shrine generally.


They still have ceremonies there to honor the people inside all the time, there were a lot of people there when I went.

Check out their site: http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/index.html


Currently, more than 2,466,000 divinities are enshrined here at Yasukuni Shrine. These are souls of men who made ultimate sacrifice for their nation since 1853 during national crises such as the Boshin War, the Seinan War, the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars, World War I, the Manchurian Incident, the China Incident and the Greater East Asian War (World War II). These people, regardless of their rank or social standing, are considered to be completely equal and worshipped as venerable divinities of Yasukuni.


lol the China "incident."

Just like the way it's mentioned in the textbook:

...many Chinese soldiers and civilians were killed or wounded by Japanese troops (the Nanking Incident). Documentary evidence has raised doubts about the actual number of victims claimed by the incident. The debate continues even today"


They refer to it as that "incident" lol
Posted 7/31/09

Yei wrote:


vessel_of_soul wrote:

I hope people do not care about Yasukuni Shrine, anymore.

It is not symbol of militarism or nationalism but almost forgotten shrine generally.


They still have ceremonies there to honor the people inside all the time, there were a lot of people there when I went.

Check out their site: http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/index.html


Currently, more than 2,466,000 divinities are enshrined here at Yasukuni Shrine. These are souls of men who made ultimate sacrifice for their nation since 1853 during national crises such as the Boshin War, the Seinan War, the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars, World War I, the Manchurian Incident, the China Incident and the Greater East Asian War (World War II). These people, regardless of their rank or social standing, are considered to be completely equal and worshipped as venerable divinities of Yasukuni.


lol the China "incident."

Just like the way it's mentioned in the textbook:

...many Chinese soldiers and civilians were killed or wounded by Japanese troops (the Nanking Incident). Documentary evidence has raised doubts about the actual number of victims claimed by the incident. The debate continues even today"


They refer to it as that "incident" lol



wow, you're familiar with Japan! lol
though I don't care of the past lol
well, plz live in the present or future.
Yei
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Posted 7/31/09

vessel_of_soul wrote:


Yei wrote:


vessel_of_soul wrote:

I hope people do not care about Yasukuni Shrine, anymore.

It is not symbol of militarism or nationalism but almost forgotten shrine generally.


They still have ceremonies there to honor the people inside all the time, there were a lot of people there when I went.

Check out their site: http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/index.html


Currently, more than 2,466,000 divinities are enshrined here at Yasukuni Shrine. These are souls of men who made ultimate sacrifice for their nation since 1853 during national crises such as the Boshin War, the Seinan War, the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese wars, World War I, the Manchurian Incident, the China Incident and the Greater East Asian War (World War II). These people, regardless of their rank or social standing, are considered to be completely equal and worshipped as venerable divinities of Yasukuni.


lol the China "incident."

Just like the way it's mentioned in the textbook:

...many Chinese soldiers and civilians were killed or wounded by Japanese troops (the Nanking Incident). Documentary evidence has raised doubts about the actual number of victims claimed by the incident. The debate continues even today"


They refer to it as that "incident" lol



wow, you're familiar with Japan! lol
though I don't care of the past lol
well, plz live in the present or future.


Yep, we shouldn't live in the past, so memorializing our war criminals in a shrine seems like a bad idea, doesn't it? And having ceremonies saying how great these guys are seems bad too, we shouldn't remind people we still haven't accepted what we did in the past yet. It makes it hard to move on if we don't accept the past.
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Yei wrote:


We had fun killing Chinese. We caught some innocent Chinese and either buried them alive, or pushed them into a fire, or beat them to death with clubs. When they were half dead we pushed them into ditches and burned them, torturing them to death. Everyone gets his entertainment this way. Its like killing dogs and cats.
--Asahi Shimbun, Japanese soldier, describing Japanese atrocities during the Rape of Nanking.

There are many first hand accounts of what they did by surviving Chinese civilians, Japanese soldiers and foreigners.

If Japan acknowledges it, why does it not teach it in their schools? What Japan did in WW2 is a pretty significant part of their history. And why do they always try to play down what happened? They have made apology statements but they're meaningless if they are obviously insincere.

Yeah, the ODA is great and helps countries all over the world, but you just think they should stop honoring their most evil war criminals "for now"? I think they should have never honored them in the first place and it's shameful that they still are.


That information might be true coming from Japanese source. And yes, Japan acknowledge of what was happened about Nanking. That's why they had many apology sent to the victims of the war, not to Chinese only but also to other Asian countries. If the apologies not sincere, I doubt Japan who had big proud and pride would ever have slight idea to do it. Ever heard many of Japanese high general did 'Seppuku' (Suicide by Katana/Knife) when they know Japan will surrender to the world.

If you're truly Japanese and had live in Japanese culture, you should know how weight their pride of Japanese, they won't gave too many apologies if they didn't really regret what their ancestors did in the past. (Well, has been said that. I think nowadays Japanese don't have more nationalism/pride as they had before.)


I don't think any of their victims are obliged to accept any apologies until something is done about these criminals being honored and the truth not being taught in Japan.


So, you think after Japanese gov send more than 50 apology letters to the victim of the war, they shouldn't accept Japanese's honest and sincere apology? I know what Japanese previous Prime Minister, Joichiro Koizumi did was wrong at time. He shouldn't visited the shrine that often than necessary. Even the Imperial family didn't do that.

But you do know that is normal and common for countries honoring their national hero, right?! European countries value their history in war time, despite what their armies were as similar as what Japanese did. Invading another country to expand their territory. Rape, torture and mass murder were common act in war at that time or maybe at the present too. It just the reports of Nanking are too exaggerated and unreliable as the controversy also counter that reports.

If the victim of war couldn't accept apology from Japanese, then they are not deserve to receive any humbly apology at all. If the victim doesn't have willing to accept it, then it's futile how many apology Japan has to write to them if they're not going accept it. Like all I said, it's all because of ODA. As the victim, they taken advantages of it for building future relationship in both countries. Therefore, Chinese gov won't accept apology if that will makes the ODA's amount decrease.

Look at my country, we're the victim as well. But as the biggest nation in south-east region, we do not have any grudge to Japanese. If you ask them whether they hate Japanese and relate it to the invasion, they wouldn't get sensitive over it and just call it as past at obvious war time. Instead, because of many invasions we had, it able to keep us unified as a country with many culture in it.

Also, our gov didn't demand such silly matters as apology although Japanese sent our ancestors to the train which is filled with poison gas to another world, instead our gov and our people admiring Japanese people as being number one of their products in electronics and automotive and trying to follow their path, as many youngster(including me) learn Japanese as third language and went and going to Japan for studying and work too.

As one of Japanese's victim of war, we do not try to seek 'feeling of mercy' from Japanese. We cooperate with them by send them nurses and doctors for elderly there, which are of course, already been taught Japanese language. After all, apology is based on feelings matter only. It all depends on the victims, whether they're gonna accept it or not. Which is here, they're being arrogant and taken advantage to get aid assistance from it. Thus their feelings of hatred and humiliation they received from Japan are not pure, they only after the money at the end.

It not being taught in their school? It is being teach until now, but of course they only teach the basic history not so detail to explain the brutal massacre because of 2 reasons. First, the information is unreliable. As we know there are many controversy about the Nanking Massacre. There' are many doubts who did that were all Japanese, chances who did it Chinese too also big according to the photos I provided before.

Second, it's about morality. If Japanese youngster had been taught that their ancestors were barbaric persons, they won't value Japanese tradition and culture which they've been followed from past generations. Instead, they'll throw them and forgotten about it. thus, the culture would be vanished in no time. After all, Yasukuni Shrine was made to respect their ancestors as well to honor Japanese's spirit along to the youth who has been infected by westernization.
As the official website said:

Japanese people believe that their respect to and awe of the deceased is best expressed by treating the dead in the same manner as they were alive. Hence, at Yasukuni Shrine, rituals to offer meals and to dedicate words of appreciation to the dead are repeated every day. And, twice every year-in the spring and autumn-major rituals are conducted, on which occasion offerings from His Majesty the Emperor are dedicated to them, and also attended by members of the imperial family.
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/index.html

Say, how do you distinguish the armies whether they are 'the country's hero' or war criminals?

In the past, humans like to having war to each other. World war I-II even before that, certain empires tried to invading another empires to gain glory and show off their power. That's natural. Actually what Japanese did with Soviet army back there in 1905 was Asian victory too. Japanese showed us that Asian could win against western army that considered as the most biggest and strongest army at that moment along with America. War Detail

Then, this also implies to Dutch army, Portuguese army and other European country whom invaded Asian country and African country to conquer the territories and get the natives resources.
And the country's hero is who defended their territories against those invaders, they usually belongs to the weak countries struggled to defend their people. Then Dutch, Portuguese, other European countries and many nations whom were journeying around the globe (and killed the native) also considered as War Criminals by your definition.

Well, I'm aware of the glorious invader who also considered as Hero to their country. Like Napoleon, King Arthur, Genghis Khan who made their country gains respect by other countries as written in history. That's what we also called as Hero of country. Which is I think Japan also can be honored as the Hero as they made themselves as the strongest nation in modern war and only can be defeated by Nuclear, the cruelest mass weapon.

If your definition of war criminal is like, Nazi of Hitler and Japanese's act against people of Chinese who murdered and tortured.
Then I could say the same to Canadian army, British army, Australian army and whichever countries that supported and helped American army for their invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq as well ! Also, United Nations is criminal as well. Claiming they're the world direction but unable to defend one single country from accuse of 'biological weapon' is just silly. Cannot do anything about what America did is not United Nation supposed to do, they are just United Noob.

It's undeniable that they were causing the chaos within the countries and creating dispute in middle-east region. For all we know, America's president, Bush, said Iran and N.Korean are the Axises of Evil. Much worse, the creation of discrimination, distinction and prejudice between middle-eastern people and other people of the world becomes bad was America.

The one who made Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay to torturing people including people is America and United Noob unable or doesn't care about this even though, it's really clear fact, no controversy there, in front their eyes, doesn't do anything.......... until now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
The biggest war criminals, Bush as America's previous president and Gates as Minister of Defense and many other war criminals still walking around and do as they please. While innocent people do suffered as the America please.

Going that far, in this 21th century treated human beings like an animal or even worse than animal, what we called them if not Criminal War?! Without any apology statement, without any single regret, without any contribution to Iraqis instead giving them shameful farewell and being replied by pair of shoes. And thus, America and its allies still being ignorant and arrogant to the world... to the origin of the nature... Mother Earth.



Sorry for the long post, lacks of grammar and harsh words if you feel that way.
I, as a kid, just concerned about how the human's future would be...
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Posted 8/1/09 , edited 8/1/09
Yea it is strange we learned about the holocaust but this was ignored. In fact had it not been for my interest in torture I would have never came across this information. I think that what Japan did to their neighbor in China and some Russians was far worse then the holocaust. In unti 731 where they performed experiments on alive human beings. They did this to develop biochemical weapons for biochemical warfare. Some of the research was done also to see how different affections form on humans and to find cures for them. They would throw sick people in with healthy people all in one cage to see how fast an infection can spread. To view the results they would dissect them while they were alive. They did far more then what I explained if you want to know research it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
http://www.toddlertime.com/bobbystringer/unit-731.htm

This was far worse then the holocaust and should have been noted in our history class. But some odd reason during WW2 all we know was that there was a holocaust and that was the only injustice done to people. Holocaust memorials all around the world but nothing for these people. After WW2 was over when the USA rounded up all the war criminals in Japan guess what. We asked them if they give us all their research from unit 731 we will let them go scott free. And thats exactly what we did they was never prosecuted amazing isn't it. This is the USA so I am not surprised we let war crimes go free today with 'certain' countries.
Yei
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Posted 8/1/09 , edited 8/1/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:



Yei wrote:


We had fun killing Chinese. We caught some innocent Chinese and either buried them alive, or pushed them into a fire, or beat them to death with clubs. When they were half dead we pushed them into ditches and burned them, torturing them to death. Everyone gets his entertainment this way. Its like killing dogs and cats.
--Asahi Shimbun, Japanese soldier, describing Japanese atrocities during the Rape of Nanking.

There are many first hand accounts of what they did by surviving Chinese civilians, Japanese soldiers and foreigners.

If Japan acknowledges it, why does it not teach it in their schools? What Japan did in WW2 is a pretty significant part of their history. And why do they always try to play down what happened? They have made apology statements but they're meaningless if they are obviously insincere.

Yeah, the ODA is great and helps countries all over the world, but you just think they should stop honoring their most evil war criminals "for now"? I think they should have never honored them in the first place and it's shameful that they still are.


That information might be true coming from Japanese source. And yes, Japan acknowledge of what was happened about Nanking. That's why they had many apology sent to the victims of the war, not to Chinese only but also to other Asian countries. If the apologies not sincere, I doubt Japan who had big proud and pride would ever have slight idea to do it. Ever heard many of Japanese high general did 'Seppuku' (Suicide by Katana/Knife) when they know Japan will surrender to the world.

If you're truly Japanese and had live in Japanese culture, you should know how weight their pride of Japanese, they won't gave too many apologies if they didn't really regret what their ancestors did in the past. (Well, has been said that. I think nowadays Japanese don't have more nationalism/pride as they had before.)



I don't think any of their victims are obliged to accept any apologies until something is done about these criminals being honored and the truth not being taught in Japan.


So, you think after Japanese gov send more than 50 apology letters to the victim of the war, they shouldn't accept Japanese's honest and sincere apology? I know what Japanese previous Prime Minister, Joichiro Koizumi did was wrong at time. He shouldn't visited the shrine that often than necessary. Even the Imperial family didn't do that.

But you do know that is normal and common for countries honoring their national hero, right?! European countries value their history in war time, despite what their armies were as similar as what Japanese did. Invading another country to expand their territory. Rape, torture and mass murder were common act in war at that time or maybe at the present too. It just the reports of Nanking are too exaggerated and unreliable as the controversy also counter that reports.

If the victim of war couldn't accept apology from Japanese, then they are not deserve to receive any humbly apology at all. If the victim doesn't have willing to accept it, then it's futile how many apology Japan has to write to them if they're not going accept it. Like all I said, it's all because of ODA. As the victim, they taken advantages of it for building future relationship in both countries. Therefore, Chinese gov won't accept apology if that will makes the ODA's amount decrease.

Look at my country, we're the victim as well. But as the biggest nation in south-east region, we do not have any grudge to Japanese. If you ask them whether they hate Japanese and relate it to the invasion, they wouldn't get sensitive over it and just call it as past at obvious war time. Instead, because of many invasions we had, it able to keep us unified as a country with many culture in it.

Also, our gov didn't demand such silly matters as apology although Japanese sent our ancestors to the train which is filled with poison gas to another world, instead our gov and our people admiring Japanese people as being number one of their products in electronics and automotive and trying to follow their path, as many youngster(including me) learn Japanese as third language and went and going to Japan for studying and work too.

As one of Japanese's victim of war, we do not try to seek 'feeling of mercy' from Japanese. We cooperate with them by send them nurses and doctors for elderly there, which are of course, already been taught Japanese language. After all, apology is based on feelings matter only. It all depends on the victims, whether they're gonna accept it or not. Which is here, they're being arrogant and taken advantage to get aid assistance from it. Thus their feelings of hatred and humiliation they received from Japan are not pure, they only after the money at the end.

It not being taught in their school? It is being teach until now, but of course they only teach the basic history not so detail to explain the brutal massacre because of 2 reasons. First, the information is unreliable. As we know there are many controversy about the Nanking Massacre. There' are many doubts who did that were all Japanese, chances who did it Chinese too also big according to the photos I provided before.

Second, it's about morality. If Japanese youngster had been taught that their ancestors were barbaric persons, they won't value Japanese tradition and culture which they've been followed from past generations. Instead, they'll throw them and forgotten about it. thus, the culture would be vanished in no time. After all, Yasukuni Shrine was made to respect their ancestors as well to honor Japanese's spirit along to the youth who has been infected by westernization.
As the official website said:

Japanese people believe that their respect to and awe of the deceased is best expressed by treating the dead in the same manner as they were alive. Hence, at Yasukuni Shrine, rituals to offer meals and to dedicate words of appreciation to the dead are repeated every day. And, twice every year-in the spring and autumn-major rituals are conducted, on which occasion offerings from His Majesty the Emperor are dedicated to them, and also attended by members of the imperial family.
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/about/index.html

Say, how do you distinguish the armies whether they are 'the country's hero' or war criminals?

In the past, humans like to having war to each other. World war I-II even before that, certain empires tried to invading another empires to gain glory and show off their power. That's natural. Actually what Japanese did with Soviet army back there in 1905 was Asian victory too. Japanese showed us that Asian could win against western army that considered as the most biggest and strongest army at that moment along with America. War Detail

Then, this also implies to Dutch army, Portuguese army and other European country whom invaded Asian country and African country to conquer the territories and get the natives resources.
And the country's hero is who defended their territories against those invaders, they usually belongs to the weak countries struggled to defend their people. Then Dutch, Portuguese, other European countries and many nations whom were journeying around the globe (and killed the native) also considered as War Criminals by your definition.

Well, I'm aware of the glorious invader who also considered as Hero to their country. Like Napoleon, King Arthur, Genghis Khan who made their country gains respect by other countries as written in history. That's what we also called as Hero of country. Which is I think Japan also can be honored as the Hero as they made themselves as the strongest nation in modern war and only can be defeated by Nuclear, the cruelest mass weapon.

If your definition of war criminal is like, Nazi of Hitler and Japanese's act against people of Chinese who murdered and tortured.
Then I could say the same to Canadian army, British army, Australian army and whichever countries that supported and helped American army for their invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq as well ! Also, United Nations is criminal as well. Claiming they're the world direction but unable to defend one single country from accuse of 'biological weapon' is just silly. Cannot do anything about what America did is not United Nation supposed to do, they are just United Noob.

It's undeniable that they were causing the chaos within the countries and creating dispute in middle-east region. For all we know, America's president, Bush, said Iran and N.Korean are the Axises of Evil. Much worse, the creation of discrimination, distinction and prejudice between middle-eastern people and other people of the world becomes bad was America.

The one who made Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo Bay to torturing people including people is America and United Noob unable or doesn't care about this even though, it's really clear fact, no controversy there, in front their eyes, doesn't do anything.......... until now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
The biggest war criminals, Bush as America's previous president and Gates as Minister of Defense and many other war criminals still walking around and do as they please. While innocent people do suffered as the America please.

Going that far, in this 21th century treated human beings like an animal or even worse than animal, what we called them if not Criminal War?! Without any apology statement, without any single regret, without any contribution to Iraqis instead giving them shameful farewell and being replied by pair of shoes. And thus, America and its allies still being ignorant and arrogant to the world... to the origin of the nature... Mother Earth.



Sorry for the long post, lacks of grammar and harsh words if you feel that way.
I, as a kid, just concerned about how the human's future would be...


If you're really 13, I'm impressed by how much you know and care about world issues on this forum.

Answer these:

1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?

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