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the Yasukuni Shrine
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Posted 8/1/09 , edited 8/1/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Many people views on the holocaust are formed from what they learned if you challenge it in the least your name called and this isnt the forum to do that on. But yes I do have a dispute on the number that has died and lets leave it at that.


Many people's views on the Holocaust are based on the facts obtained after the Holocaust. But either way, I don't see the value in challenging it.


I understand your view but I see the value of challenging it as you can see how it is used today and certain events taking place afterwards. The difference between me and other people is I am an open minded individual. No matter what incident happened in the past I listen to both sides of the story then form my own judgement. The notion that something happened in the past and it is set in stone to not be able to investigate it any further because it is fact and thats that is something I dont agree with. To me it is like your hiding something. For those who investigated further like I said I listened to what they have to say vs what I was taught. Lets not stray off topic anymore.
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Posted 8/1/09

Yei wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:

Ok, but like I said, no one's in any position to somehow make moral and suffering judgments. No one can decide whether a kid who is burned alive in the Holocaust suffered more than a kid who bleeds to death from an h-bomb in Vietnam or a child soldier in Africa. It's ridiculous and immoral to make those kinds of judgments and I don't see the point of it.


Well actually you can decide who suffers more.

Burning to death in the holocaust, would be a slow and painful thing, since most likely the child would have just been thrown into a pit of burning corpses, that's a slow and painful death, so he/she would have suffered a lot, dying by h-bomb would be an instant death more than likely depending on how close you were to it, so little to no suffering, and child soldiers in Africa usually use guns, so that would be a bullet wound, so either a slow an painful death or instant death depending on where the bullet/s hit you.


If the H-Bomb doesn't hit you directly and just causes alot of your skin to burn off, you may not die for hours. I'm talking about the extreme torture child soldiers get, which you probably never heard of. Like being bitten to death by other kids.


Well yeah if your not in the immediate area where the H-bomb hits your going to suffer for a while, but if the initial blast doesn't get you, the shockwave will, and if you somehow manage to escape that, the radiation will get you, either as neutrons or x-rays or fallout(unless it was airburst high enough, then there is no fallout.) That will leave massive burns. Hurt like hell, probably suffer a lot, tho.

Being bitten to death to death by other kids would be painful death sure. But its still clear that they would suffer a lot, and others in other situations would or wouldn't suffer as much. So you can still decide who would suffer more, if you happen to know the manner in which they died.


ok, but you can't make generalizations like people in the Asian Holocaust suffered more than the people in the Nazi Holocaust. There's no way to measure suffering there.


That's true, but you could determine who would have suffered more if you knew the manner in which the population of each side was killed, then compared them. but you'd have to do that person by person, which is impossible. So your right, you can't make generalizations like that.
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Posted 8/2/09 , edited 8/2/09

Yei wrote:

If you're really 13, I'm impressed by how much you know and care about world issues on this forum.

Answer these:

1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?




I'm also impressed, knowing you are in 'sweet seventeen' age, really concern about society and world's issues than hang out with your friends of boyfriend in this weekend. Maybe you'll become a great person, more than mere housewife. Me too, trying not to be one.
As for me, maybe I became like this because of my background?... I'm not sure.

Well, to be honest. Actually I'm disappointed after write so much and explaining about incident. (Sorry if it too much, but I tried to not going off topic.) And what I get now is the questions that trying to relate this to Holocaust, meanwhile the first post were talking about Nanking Massacre in China by Japanese. I know this might considered as Asian Holocaust. But many incidents happened that also might be considered as Holocaust, like Vietnam war, perhaps? (But that's will be massacre by both sides to both sides, though)

Anyway, since you insisting relate Nanking to Holocaust. I will answer it for you from my point of view.
Why people of German doesn't want to honor Nazi, even though Nazi made Germany feared to the Europe, got attention from the world as fearsome and formidable army and made German's name became insanely famous to the world. Nazi also brought Germany to their great times, including "The consequence was an extremely rapid decline in unemployment--the most rapid decline in unemployment in any country during the Great Depression" in economy sector.

So why German people doesn't honor Nazi even though Nazi made German people soo superior at that time?
Is it just because of Holocaust? No........ all armies during that time did same thing. Massacre innocent people were common, even now. Israel did it to civilians, right?

Simply, it because of region's perception in political view and its relation with its neighboring countries.
Holocaust ! Killed numerous Jews in Europe.Europe! Now filled with Jews in it. Despite with different kind of people in it. Jews hold important position in Europe, America and the prejudice as the 'promised people' on Holy Book in the world.

If Germany didn't acknowledge Holocaust, instead if they honor and build memorials for Hitler and other leader (Read: war criminals for the world, Hero for Germany). What do you think will might happen to German presence in Europe?

If we see it at different of view, "Actually Germany urges to honor Nazi and Hitler whom made Germany formidable and able to conquer more than half Europe, but because of pressures from all lost country, international(because of America) and America itself. They can't do it. And of course using Holocaust as Scapegoat as excuse to add the pressure. "
How's that sound? Well, honoring Hitler and Nazi really cause harm to Germany itself, though. AS Jew are over the world and held important position, unlike Chinese. Who couldn't put pressure to Japan, well too difficult, because Japan is allies with America. While Chinese..... in not really bad relation.

Hope the long words above can answer your 2 questions.
Now the third question. I'd like you ask the question as well,
Would it be forgivable for invader to entering and plundering, massacring, raping, and even making them as slave, thus occupying their land until now?
That's what happened in America and Australia. Invader killed many Indians tribe which are the native inhabitant and made America continent became invader new home instead. Sure that's common in the past, hence is there any apology statement by American gov at that time to native? Hmpp.... they probably never thought of that, since they treated Indians tribe like animals. Well, that's very long ago. Not really good for example.

Then how about Australia? This huge island originally owned by Aborigine. If you look the past, it's not different the way invader treated them, like pest or even worse like a thing. However, until now. How many apology statement given by Australia's gov?? Only ONE. And sadly, by current president, Kevin Ruud. Not by the previous of previous authority.

Hmmp.... I suspect that Kevin Ruud said that apology because that apology included in his promise during election. After that, did he made any laws concerning to Aborigine? No at all.... maybe yes. I don't know.

Has been said that, let's look to people of Aborigine's respond that been given apology by chosen president. Were they glad, happy? No. They said similar to this "instead saying an apology, makes equal rights for us to get jobs in gov institutes and other facilities".

See.... that's their respond.
Instead receiving such touching statement, they need equal rights by Australian's government.
Instead having such sweet words, they need job to survive.
Instead getting bow and fake teary eyes and smiles, they need to live as human's being!
This is the true nature of human being who striving to live rather than receive silly melancholy non-sense words...


So, why Chinese being conceit for such mere statements over 50 times by Japanese and haven't satisfied yet?
That's ignorant, being displeased after they receiving ODA too much than necessary, well they after the money behind that.
Got more than 50 apologies statements, having ODA more than millions and millions dollars from Japan, but they still making dispute with such silly matter as visiting Yasukuni Shrine??!! The world doesn't need people like that. If you're in Japan situation, do you think that's really annoying?

As I said in previous post, Japanese visiting Yasukuni Shrine not to commemorate the Massacre but to respecting their ancestors for making Japan so big nations like now. A common act from nationalism country, many country doing this as well when they having independence day. Japan, through this act also wanted to send down Japanese's culture and tradition.
"Japanese people believe that their respect to and awe of the deceased is best expressed by treating the dead in the same manner as they were alive. Hence, at Yasukuni Shrine, rituals to offer meals and to dedicate words of appreciation to the dead are repeated every day. And, twice every year-in the spring and autumn-major rituals are conducted, on which occasion offerings from His Majesty the Emperor are dedicated to them, and also attended by members of the imperial family."

Well, We can say Germany are not being nationalism or like their country. I heard Germany prefer to be called as European than Germany, is that true?

It's not sentiment of apology or honoring matter. It's about 'Could we forgive humans sin we had committed together to each other?'
We all making mistakes... at the past, .....present or even the future. What we need is not feeble feelings that will causing dispute amongst us... What we need is a heart that able to forgiven all sins we had, already or will be committed in this human's history.


The past makes us understand each other... leads to forgiven each other. The future makes us realize the obstacles which been created by us in the past, thus we urge to solve it together... Get up from your sorrow, folk of humanity. The world is waiting to be fixed because our own foolishness...



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Posted 8/2/09

Great, looking from your previous post. We're comparing which one is worse than another?
Someone even comparing which method can causing suffer more than another to human beings?!

it seems like you want to do much more worse massacre than our previous old man. Or Do you all want to feel it yourselves?
Yei
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Posted 8/2/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:

If you're really 13, I'm impressed by how much you know and care about world issues on this forum.

Answer these:

1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?




I'm also impressed, knowing you are in 'sweet seventeen' age, really concern about society and world's issues than hang out with your friends of boyfriend in this weekend. Maybe you'll become a great person, more than mere housewife. Me too, trying not to be one.
As for me, maybe I became like this because of my background?... I'm not sure.

Well, to be honest. Actually I'm disappointed after write so much and explaining about incident. (Sorry if it too much, but I tried to not going off topic.) And what I get now is the questions that trying to relate this to Holocaust, meanwhile the first post were talking about Nanking Massacre in China by Japanese. I know this might considered as Asian Holocaust. But many incidents happened that also might be considered as Holocaust, like Vietnam war, perhaps? (But that's will be massacre by both sides to both sides, though)

Anyway, since you insisting relate Nanking to Holocaust. I will answer it for you from my point of view.
Why people of German doesn't want to honor Nazi, even though Nazi made Germany feared to the Europe, got attention from the world as fearsome and formidable army and made German's name became insanely famous to the world. Nazi also brought Germany to their great times, including "The consequence was an extremely rapid decline in unemployment--the most rapid decline in unemployment in any country during the Great Depression" in economy sector.

So why German people doesn't honor Nazi even though Nazi made German people soo superior at that time?
Is it just because of Holocaust? No........ all armies during that time did same thing. Massacre innocent people were common, even now. Israel did it to civilians, right?

Simply, it because of region's perception in political view and its relation with its neighboring countries.
Holocaust ! Killed numerous Jews in Europe.Europe! Now filled with Jews in it. Despite with different kind of people in it. Jews hold important position in Europe, America and the prejudice as the 'promised people' on Holy Book in the world.

If Germany didn't acknowledge Holocaust, instead if they honor and build memorials for Hitler and other leader (Read: war criminals for the world, Hero for Germany). What do you think will might happen to German presence in Europe?

If we see it at different of view, "Actually Germany urges to honor Nazi and Hitler whom made Germany formidable and able to conquer more than half Europe, but because of pressures from all lost country, international(because of America) and America itself. They can't do it. And of course using Holocaust as Scapegoat as excuse to add the pressure. "
How's that sound? Well, honoring Hitler and Nazi really cause harm to Germany itself, though. AS Jew are over the world and held important position, unlike Chinese. Who couldn't put pressure to Japan, well too difficult, because Japan is allies with America. While Chinese..... in not really bad relation.

Hope the long words above can answer your 2 questions.
Now the third question. I'd like you ask the question as well,
Would it be forgivable for invader to entering and plundering, massacring, raping, and even making them as slave, thus occupying their land until now?
That's what happened in America and Australia. Invader killed many Indians tribe which are the native inhabitant and made America continent became invader new home instead. Sure that's common in the past, hence is there any apology statement by American gov at that time to native? Hmpp.... they probably never thought of that, since they treated Indians tribe like animals. Well, that's very long ago. Not really good for example.

Then how about Australia? This huge island originally owned by Aborigine. If you look the past, it's not different the way invader treated them, like pest or even worse like a thing. However, until now. How many apology statement given by Australia's gov?? Only ONE. And sadly, by current president, Kevin Ruud. Not by the previous of previous authority.

Hmmp.... I suspect that Kevin Ruud said that apology because that apology included in his promise during election. After that, did he made any laws concerning to Aborigine? No at all.... maybe yes. I don't know.

Has been said that, let's look to people of Aborigine's respond that been given apology by chosen president. Were they glad, happy? No. They said similar to this "instead saying an apology, makes equal rights for us to get jobs in gov institutes and other facilities".

See.... that's their respond.
Instead receiving such touching statement, they need equal rights by Australian's government.
Instead having such sweet words, they need job to survive.
Instead getting bow and fake teary eyes and smiles, they need to live as human's being!
This is the true nature of human being who striving to live rather than receive silly melancholy non-sense words...


So, why Chinese being conceit for such mere statements over 50 times by Japanese and haven't satisfied yet?
That's ignorant, being displeased after they receiving ODA too much than necessary, well they after the money behind that.
Got more than 50 apologies statements, having ODA more than millions and millions dollars from Japan, but they still making dispute with such silly matter as visiting Yasukuni Shrine??!! The world doesn't need people like that. If you're in Japan situation, do you think that's really annoying?

As I said in previous post, Japanese visiting Yasukuni Shrine not to commemorate the Massacre but to respecting their ancestors for making Japan so big nations like now. A common act from nationalism country, many country doing this as well when they having independence day. Japan, through this act also wanted to send down Japanese's culture and tradition.
"Japanese people believe that their respect to and awe of the deceased is best expressed by treating the dead in the same manner as they were alive. Hence, at Yasukuni Shrine, rituals to offer meals and to dedicate words of appreciation to the dead are repeated every day. And, twice every year-in the spring and autumn-major rituals are conducted, on which occasion offerings from His Majesty the Emperor are dedicated to them, and also attended by members of the imperial family."

Well, We can say Germany are not being nationalism or like their country. I heard Germany prefer to be called as European than Germany, is that true?

It's not sentiment of apology or honoring matter. It's about 'Could we forgive humans sin we had committed together to each other?'
We all making mistakes... at the past, .....present or even the future. What we need is not feeble feelings that will causing dispute amongst us... What we need is a heart that able to forgiven all sins we had, already or will be committed in this human's history.


The past makes us understand each other... leads to forgiven each other. The future makes us realize the obstacles which been created by us in the past, thus we urge to solve it together... Get up from your sorrow, folk of humanity. The world is waiting to be fixed because our own foolishness...





Alright, first we need to separate between the actions of Japan and Germany during WW2 and the actions of other countries.

The Holocaust was an extermination of people based on their race and beliefs, Jews, gypsies, gays, all were exterminated. It was a genocide. No one else committed genocide in WW2. They tortured children, woman and anyone else in unimaginable ways just because of their race. Japanese soldiers raped little girls and chopped the heads off little boys for fun. There was no purpose for what they did in Nanking other than letting them have fun, they looked at the Chinese as less than human. Both the Asian and Nazi Holocaust are completely different than any of the examples you gave.

It would be disgusting for Germany to honor anyone of the evil people who helped make the Holocaust happen because what they did was so bad. A genocide that tortured 11 million completely innocent people to death is not something to be proud of, you don't honor it. It would be a disgrace to their country if that was honored, and right now this Shrine is honoring 14 of the worst Japanese war criminals of all time that made the Asian Holocaust happen. Why would anyone be proud of their soldiers raping 80,000 women and having fun torturing hundreds of thousands of people to death? It's pretty obvious, anyone with any morality would be disgusted if these people were honored, that's why no one honors the Nazis in Germany, because they have morals, not because Jews were killed. What happened in both Holocausts is especially evil, cruel and insane. They did these things to innocent people just because of their race and they did it on a huge scale. There's no excusing it.

Trying to excuse it by comparing the Holocaust(s) to other events is ridiculous. Well 'Vietnam was pretty bad, so I guess that makes the Holocaust ok.' That makes no sense at all, first of all you didn't pick anything even comparable to the Holocaust(s) and it wouldn't change anything anyway.

There is no excuse for having those war criminals in the shrine, they should be taken out. They should be looked at as some of the most evil Japanese people that brought shame unto the country.

The ODA gives money to countries all over the world, it's not just special for China and Korea. And money is meaningless for people who were raped half to death by Japanese soldiers and had their family chopped into pieces in front of them.

There's no excuse to be honoring the war criminals and there's no excuse not to be teaching their people about the truth. What they're doing now is pretty much denying anything even happened.
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Posted 8/3/09

Yei wrote:

Alright, first we need to separate between the actions of Japan and Germany during WW2 and the actions of other countries.

The Holocaust was an extermination of people based on their race and beliefs, Jews, gypsies, gays, all were exterminated. It was a genocide. No one else committed genocide in WW2. They tortured children, woman and anyone else in unimaginable ways just because of their race. Japanese soldiers raped little girls and chopped the heads off little boys for fun. There was no purpose for what they did in Nanking other than letting them have fun, they looked at the Chinese as less than human. Both the Asian and Nazi Holocaust are completely different than any of the examples you gave.

It would be disgusting for Germany to honor anyone of the evil people who helped make the Holocaust happen because what they did was so bad. A genocide that tortured 11 million completely innocent people to death is not something to be proud of, you don't honor it. It would be a disgrace to their country if that was honored, and right now this Shrine is honoring 14 of the worst Japanese war criminals of all time that made the Asian Holocaust happen. Why would anyone be proud of their soldiers raping 80,000 women and having fun torturing hundreds of thousands of people to death? It's pretty obvious, anyone with any morality would be disgusted if these people were honored, that's why no one honors the Nazis in Germany, because they have morals, not because Jews were killed. What happened in both Holocausts is especially evil, cruel and insane. They did these things to innocent people just because of their race and they did it on a huge scale. There's no excusing it.

Trying to excuse it by comparing the Holocaust(s) to other events is ridiculous. Well 'Vietnam was pretty bad, so I guess that makes the Holocaust ok.' That makes no sense at all, first of all you didn't pick anything even comparable to the Holocaust(s) and it wouldn't change anything anyway.

There is no excuse for having those war criminals in the shrine, they should be taken out. They should be looked at as some of the most evil Japanese people that brought shame unto the country.

The ODA gives money to countries all over the world, it's not just special for China and Korea. And money is meaningless for people who were raped half to death by Japanese soldiers and had their family chopped into pieces in front of them.

There's no excuse to be honoring the war criminals and there's no excuse not to be teaching their people about the truth. What they're doing now is pretty much denying anything even happened.



Like I said, every country at that time (World War I-II or even before that) doing all same to the invaded country. Including mass burned alive, rape torturing. Not only Japanese or Germany. The question is why Germany doesn't want to honor Hitler, even though at that time Nazi had given German people a great honorary and respect from all of Europe for being as strongest army. (Not to mention, Nazi had given German people all privileges in economy sector as well.) ?

Dutch, England, Portuguese, etc... still honoring their hero, even though they knew their hero's killed so many innocent people. Especially the natives, millions of them.

The proud is not for raping, torturing and killing them. The proud is coming from 'how strong their army were, how many territories their army had conquered. Dutch also doing the same about raping all women in the biggest nation of south-east asia. I just don't know the details to compare it which is bad. After all, it's not about the numbers, it's about the method how they treated the conquered territories.

It'd be naive if someone say, no countries (that able to conquer another country) doing bad things when they invading another country.

Not to mention, how many Indian tribe and Aborigine ethnics in America and Australia were killed, tortured and even trade it as slaves. More than Nazi did... hence there's no details. So America and Australia stil can proudly honoring their ancestors for able to occupied it until now....

Why America and Australia and other country like Dutch, England, Portuguese, France...etc. not ashamed to honoring their ancestors? Because the people their ancestors killed are not 'superior' like Jews, thus there's no pressure from International.

Keep note, it's about politic and German's foreign affair.
Yei
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Posted 8/3/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:

Alright, first we need to separate between the actions of Japan and Germany during WW2 and the actions of other countries.

The Holocaust was an extermination of people based on their race and beliefs, Jews, gypsies, gays, all were exterminated. It was a genocide. No one else committed genocide in WW2. They tortured children, woman and anyone else in unimaginable ways just because of their race. Japanese soldiers raped little girls and chopped the heads off little boys for fun. There was no purpose for what they did in Nanking other than letting them have fun, they looked at the Chinese as less than human. Both the Asian and Nazi Holocaust are completely different than any of the examples you gave.

It would be disgusting for Germany to honor anyone of the evil people who helped make the Holocaust happen because what they did was so bad. A genocide that tortured 11 million completely innocent people to death is not something to be proud of, you don't honor it. It would be a disgrace to their country if that was honored, and right now this Shrine is honoring 14 of the worst Japanese war criminals of all time that made the Asian Holocaust happen. Why would anyone be proud of their soldiers raping 80,000 women and having fun torturing hundreds of thousands of people to death? It's pretty obvious, anyone with any morality would be disgusted if these people were honored, that's why no one honors the Nazis in Germany, because they have morals, not because Jews were killed. What happened in both Holocausts is especially evil, cruel and insane. They did these things to innocent people just because of their race and they did it on a huge scale. There's no excusing it.

Trying to excuse it by comparing the Holocaust(s) to other events is ridiculous. Well 'Vietnam was pretty bad, so I guess that makes the Holocaust ok.' That makes no sense at all, first of all you didn't pick anything even comparable to the Holocaust(s) and it wouldn't change anything anyway.

There is no excuse for having those war criminals in the shrine, they should be taken out. They should be looked at as some of the most evil Japanese people that brought shame unto the country.

The ODA gives money to countries all over the world, it's not just special for China and Korea. And money is meaningless for people who were raped half to death by Japanese soldiers and had their family chopped into pieces in front of them.

There's no excuse to be honoring the war criminals and there's no excuse not to be teaching their people about the truth. What they're doing now is pretty much denying anything even happened.



Like I said, every country at that time (World War I-II or even before that) doing all same to the invaded country. Including mass burned alive, rape torturing. Not only Japanese or Germany. The question is why Germany doesn't want to honor Hitler, even though at that time Nazi had given German people a great honorary and respect from all of Europe for being as strongest army. (Not to mention, Nazi had given German people all privileges in economy sector as well.) ?

Dutch, England, Portuguese, etc... still honoring their hero, even though they knew their hero's killed so many innocent people. Especially the natives, millions of them.

The proud is not for raping, torturing and killing them. The proud is coming from 'how strong their army were, how many territories their army had conquered. Dutch also doing the same about raping all women in the biggest nation of south-east asia. I just don't know the details to compare it which is bad. After all, it's not about the numbers, it's about the method how they treated the conquered territories.

It'd be naive if someone say, no countries (that able to conquer another country) doing bad things when they invading another country.

Not to mention, how many Indian tribe and Aborigine ethnics in America and Australia were killed, tortured and even trade it as slaves. More than Nazi did... hence there's no details. So America and Australia stil can proudly honoring their ancestors for able to occupied it until now....

Why America and Australia and other country like Dutch, England, Portuguese, France...etc. not ashamed to honoring their ancestors? Because the people their ancestors killed are not 'superior' like Jews, thus there's no pressure from International.

Keep note, it's about politic and German's foreign affair.



No not every country did what Germany and Japan did in WW2. First of all they tried to take over the world, so they started the war. And then they started purposefully exterminating people, Germany started a genocide and Japan tortured people for fun. No other countries in WW2 did that. Many countries do bad things, but what Germany and Japan did was especially bad and insanely cruel and unnecessary. And they did it on a huge scale. Tell me something other countries did within this century that is as bad as the Holocaust(s) and on the same scale.

The Germans don't honor the Nazis because they have morals and wouldn't want to honor such evil people. And the Nazis and Hitler were all insane and led to the defeat of Germany. The Emperor and Japanese in charge during WW2 were all insane as well and led to their own defeat, there's no heroes there, nothing to be proud of. The Dutch, England, Portuguese don't honor people who committed genocide for fun.

You have to be more specific with what ancestors from America or Australia you're talking about, and I'll see if they were on the same level of evil as the Nazis and Japanese war criminals, and if they are being honored in shrines.
Posted 8/3/09
well we trotured people in gitmo for fun >.>
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Posted 8/3/09
I've recently seen a slogan thats becoming popular here in the states among southerners who are proud of their roots "Heritage not Hate" so I suppose its a situation much like that over in japan
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Posted 8/3/09
well it just an history....dont wanna to recall the violent couse of Japaness soldier
now all i need just PEACE for all humanity
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Posted 8/4/09

Yei wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:

Alright, first we need to separate between the actions of Japan and Germany during WW2 and the actions of other countries.

The Holocaust was an extermination of people based on their race and beliefs, Jews, gypsies, gays, all were exterminated. It was a genocide. No one else committed genocide in WW2. They tortured children, woman and anyone else in unimaginable ways just because of their race. Japanese soldiers raped little girls and chopped the heads off little boys for fun. There was no purpose for what they did in Nanking other than letting them have fun, they looked at the Chinese as less than human. Both the Asian and Nazi Holocaust are completely different than any of the examples you gave.

It would be disgusting for Germany to honor anyone of the evil people who helped make the Holocaust happen because what they did was so bad. A genocide that tortured 11 million completely innocent people to death is not something to be proud of, you don't honor it. It would be a disgrace to their country if that was honored, and right now this Shrine is honoring 14 of the worst Japanese war criminals of all time that made the Asian Holocaust happen. Why would anyone be proud of their soldiers raping 80,000 women and having fun torturing hundreds of thousands of people to death? It's pretty obvious, anyone with any morality would be disgusted if these people were honored, that's why no one honors the Nazis in Germany, because they have morals, not because Jews were killed. What happened in both Holocausts is especially evil, cruel and insane. They did these things to innocent people just because of their race and they did it on a huge scale. There's no excusing it.

Trying to excuse it by comparing the Holocaust(s) to other events is ridiculous. Well 'Vietnam was pretty bad, so I guess that makes the Holocaust ok.' That makes no sense at all, first of all you didn't pick anything even comparable to the Holocaust(s) and it wouldn't change anything anyway.

There is no excuse for having those war criminals in the shrine, they should be taken out. They should be looked at as some of the most evil Japanese people that brought shame unto the country.

The ODA gives money to countries all over the world, it's not just special for China and Korea. And money is meaningless for people who were raped half to death by Japanese soldiers and had their family chopped into pieces in front of them.

There's no excuse to be honoring the war criminals and there's no excuse not to be teaching their people about the truth. What they're doing now is pretty much denying anything even happened.



Like I said, every country at that time (World War I-II or even before that) doing all same to the invaded country. Including mass burned alive, rape torturing. Not only Japanese or Germany. The question is why Germany doesn't want to honor Hitler, even though at that time Nazi had given German people a great honorary and respect from all of Europe for being as strongest army. (Not to mention, Nazi had given German people all privileges in economy sector as well.) ?

Dutch, England, Portuguese, etc... still honoring their hero, even though they knew their hero's killed so many innocent people. Especially the natives, millions of them.

The proud is not for raping, torturing and killing them. The proud is coming from 'how strong their army were, how many territories their army had conquered. Dutch also doing the same about raping all women in the biggest nation of south-east asia. I just don't know the details to compare it which is bad. After all, it's not about the numbers, it's about the method how they treated the conquered territories.

It'd be naive if someone say, no countries (that able to conquer another country) doing bad things when they invading another country.

Not to mention, how many Indian tribe and Aborigine ethnics in America and Australia were killed, tortured and even trade it as slaves. More than Nazi did... hence there's no details. So America and Australia stil can proudly honoring their ancestors for able to occupied it until now....

Why America and Australia and other country like Dutch, England, Portuguese, France...etc. not ashamed to honoring their ancestors? Because the people their ancestors killed are not 'superior' like Jews, thus there's no pressure from International.

Keep note, it's about politic and German's foreign affair.



No not every country did what Germany and Japan did in WW2. First of all they tried to take over the world, so they started the war. And then they started purposefully exterminating people, Germany started a genocide and Japan tortured people for fun. No other countries in WW2 did that. Many countries do bad things, but what Germany and Japan did was especially bad and insanely cruel and unnecessary. And they did it on a huge scale. Tell me something other countries did within this century that is as bad as the Holocaust(s) and on the same scale.

The Germans don't honor the Nazis because they have morals and wouldn't want to honor such evil people. And the Nazis and Hitler were all insane and led to the defeat of Germany. The Emperor and Japanese in charge during WW2 were all insane as well and led to their own defeat, there's no heroes there, nothing to be proud of. The Dutch, England, Portuguese don't honor people who committed genocide for fun.

You have to be more specific with what ancestors from America or Australia you're talking about, and I'll see if they were on the same level of evil as the Nazis and Japanese war criminals, and if they are being honored in shrines.


lol, do you think it's necessary to compare human's sin to another human's sin. If you want to know human's sin like genocide or torturing for fun, just google it. I'm sure there are many of them. Well, maybe most of them are happened before WW2. You can't measure how insane an incident by calculating the numbers of victim, we should see what's they did to the victims.

Sure Japanese and Germany did horrible things, as it's recorded well in history of humans kind. But that's normal at that time, for a country to do that. The Dutch, England, Portuguese, France...etc honor their hero, despite their hero are really cruel when they invading the countries at middle age. You have to know the condition of the country's victim and the people as well. They had more horrible experience than Jew people or maybe similar to Chinese people.

Australia did horrible things to Aborigine, I don't have the link, but you might want to check it via google.
Moreover, humiliation is the worst. Even now, American still doing it, right? Why you don't take a brief visit to following web?
http://pinguy.infogami.com/blog/vwm6 (A slight of human's history)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
(Still happening right NOW. Don't forget about Guantanamo too.)

The problem is not number, but the cruel act they committed. Therefore, we should stop them right away, punish those who commit evil and to towards the new world... We need a mercy heart to stop the hatred. If Chinese still blabbering of what Japanese did, the next generation will hold that grudge as well. Thus the cycle of hatred won't stop forever..... until the forgiven had been accepted.


Posted 8/4/09 , edited 8/4/09
**completely off-topic**
Hey, really..it would be lovely to partake in any of the ongoing discussions but with every thread being cluttered with pyramids of posts I just can't seem to find enough interest to proceed with the reading because the massive scrolling I have to undergo to get to the point of every poster in here is...just way too much of a hassle. I would really wish if users such as hey-you-know-who-you-are and others would learn how to amend their posts and avoid to include the quotes that have been posted pages ago. Sorry, but in almost every active thread in the ED section I see pyramids of posts page after page, and it really does deter me from trying to contribute anything to the topic at hand. It's a real waste of space..

PS: i don't mean to offend anyone..i just thought it's time to mention it since it's getting worse day by day and the culprits seem to be always the same.
Yei
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Posted 8/4/09 , edited 8/4/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

lol, do you think it's necessary to compare human's sin to another human's sin. If you want to know human's sin like genocide or torturing for fun, just google it. I'm sure there are many of them. Well, maybe most of them are happened before WW2. You can't measure how insane an incident by calculating the numbers of victim, we should see what's they did to the victims.

Sure Japanese and Germany did horrible things, as it's recorded well in history of humans kind. But that's normal at that time, for a country to do that. The Dutch, England, Portuguese, France...etc honor their hero, despite their hero are really cruel when they invading the countries at middle age. You have to know the condition of the country's victim and the people as well. They had more horrible experience than Jew people or maybe similar to Chinese people.

Australia did horrible things to Aborigine, I don't have the link, but you might want to check it via google.
Moreover, humiliation is the worst. Even now, American still doing it, right? Why you don't take a brief visit to following web?
http://pinguy.infogami.com/blog/vwm6 (A slight of human's history)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
(Still happening right NOW. Don't forget about Guantanamo too.)

The problem is not number, but the cruel act they committed. Therefore, we should stop them right away, punish those who commit evil and to towards the new world... We need a mercy heart to stop the hatred. If Chinese still blabbering of what Japanese did, the next generation will hold that grudge as well. Thus the cycle of hatred won't stop forever..... until the forgiven had been accepted.



You still haven't named anything worse that happened in recent history. And saying some people did horrible things to other people centuries ago doesn't excuse anything.

It's just common sense to not honor or deny something like the Holocaust. It's weird that I have to explain that, Abu Ghraib is not comparable with the Holocaust lol

Those pics of history are really nice, btw.



I asked these three questions:


1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?

And your answers for the first two basically were:




Germany should be honoring Hitler and the Nazis cause every other country did the same things, but they don't because they killed Jews and that would hurt their relations with other countries?


And for the third question you really didn't answer and started saying the Chinese need to get over it because lots of people have done bad things as well, what Japan did wasn't really a big deal.


Right?
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Posted 8/4/09

Yei wrote:

You still haven't named anything worse that happened in recent history. And saying some people did horrible things to other people centuries ago doesn't excuse anything.

It's just common sense to not honor or deny something like the Holocaust. It's weird that I have to explain that, Abu Ghraib is not comparable with the Holocaust lol

Those pics of history are really nice, btw.



I asked these three questions:


1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?

And your answers for the first two basically were:




Germany should be honoring Hitler and the Nazis cause every other country did the same things, but they don't because they killed Jews and that would hurt their relations with other countries?


And for the third question you really didn't answer and started saying the Chinese need to get over it because lots of people have done bad things as well, what Japan did wasn't really a big deal.


Right?


lol, nice pic? I was accidentally click it when looking at the 'link' forum here. I only spent 10 secs and cut the link, I'm not sure is it necessary to post it here.

When we looked to the cruelty of humanity. Don't compare which one is worse based on numbers. Look at what they did.
Yes, Abu Ghraib is not comparable because it's much more worse than Holocaust. Nazi's mostly only shot the victims, not tortured them to death. Not to mention the cruelest humiliation in modern age. You don't understand how the victim's felt, because you haven't experienced how it felt in lose side, not in win side with America.

If you insisting, then looked to what America did to Japanese. Nuclear! to Hiroshima and Kagoshima which are civilians area, not war-zone. And mass bombing in Tokyo which is costs 100,000 Civilians not the army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II

Or to Aborigine in Australia from 1820
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_Wars

And look to Rwanda Genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

And the list will be longer if you actually google it.


Germany should be honoring Hitler and the Nazis cause every other country did the same things, but they don't because they killed Jews and that would hurt their relations with other countries?


You perspective of view limited only in one side, of what international gives you, not from Germany people also not from Japanese view.
The people of Germany would become an enemy to all countries on Land of Europe and America if they do that. It would affect the stabilization within the countries and many disputes will arise, why Japanese doesn't?

It because of the power of nation, Japanese did it. Nothing happened, only few countries blabbering protest it while they receiving ODA / Money as consequence

America did it right now, but no one against it. Instead they have support from international.
Israel did it to civilians right now, but no one trying to stop it, instead support from America.
See...? It because of the influence of a nation or power of pressure. You should think the impact from political view.


What Japan did is really bad, but Chinese and other countries should stop make a big fuss of it in order to stop the dispute. Everyone did, do and doing it after all.
Yei
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Posted 8/4/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:

You still haven't named anything worse that happened in recent history. And saying some people did horrible things to other people centuries ago doesn't excuse anything.

It's just common sense to not honor or deny something like the Holocaust. It's weird that I have to explain that, Abu Ghraib is not comparable with the Holocaust lol

Those pics of history are really nice, btw.



I asked these three questions:


1. Would it be acceptable if Germany didn't teach the Holocaust and what it did in WW2 and the majority of the population was ignorant about it?

2. Would it be acceptable for Germany to honor and have memorials for Hitler, Nazi Leaders, and other war criminals of WW2?

3. Would any surviving Holocaust victims be able to accept any apologies if Germany was doing the two things above?

And your answers for the first two basically were:




Germany should be honoring Hitler and the Nazis cause every other country did the same things, but they don't because they killed Jews and that would hurt their relations with other countries?


And for the third question you really didn't answer and started saying the Chinese need to get over it because lots of people have done bad things as well, what Japan did wasn't really a big deal.


Right?


lol, nice pic? I was accidentally click it when looking at the 'link' forum here. I only spent 10 secs and cut the link, I'm not sure is it necessary to post it here.

When we looked to the cruelty of humanity. Don't compare which one is worse based on numbers. Look at what they did.
Yes, Abu Ghraib is not comparable because it's much more worse than Holocaust. Nazi's mostly only shot the victims, not tortured them to death. Not to mention the cruelest humiliation in modern age. You don't understand how the victim's felt, because you haven't experienced how it felt in lose side, not in win side with America.

If you insisting, then looked to what America did to Japanese. Nuclear! to Hiroshima and Kagoshima which are civilians area, not war-zone. And mass bombing in Tokyo which is costs 100,000 Civilians not the army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_in_World_War_II

Or to Aborigine in Australia from 1820
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_of_Indigenous_Australians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_Wars

And look to Rwanda Genocide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

And the list will be longer if you actually google it.


Germany should be honoring Hitler and the Nazis cause every other country did the same things, but they don't because they killed Jews and that would hurt their relations with other countries?


You perspective of view limited only in one side, of what international gives you, not from Germany people also not from Japanese view.
The people of Germany would become an enemy to all countries on Land of Europe and America if they do that. It would affect the stabilization within the countries and many disputes will arise, why Japanese doesn't?

It because of the power of nation, Japanese did it. Nothing happened, only few countries blabbering protest it while they receiving ODA / Money as consequence

America did it right now, but no one against it. Instead they have support from international.
Israel did it to civilians right now, but no one trying to stop it, instead support from America.
See...? It because of the influence of a nation or power of pressure. You should think the impact from political view.


What Japan did is really bad, but Chinese and other countries should stop make a big fuss of it in order to stop the dispute. Everyone did, do and doing it after all.


Abu Ghraib was worse than the Holocaust? People weren't tortured in the Holocaust?

And a valid excuse for being proud of the Holocaust and/or denying it, is that other bad things happened as well?

I think this is a good time to end the discussion. You're 13, you still haven't even taken history class in High School, right?
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