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Should American Funding to Israel Halt?
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Posted 7/30/09
Although recently supplanted by Iraq as the largest annual recipient of US foreign aid, Israel still receives roughly 3 billion dollars worth of grants from the United States every year. (Egypt receives roughly the same amount while Iraq has been consistently granted 20 billion every year since early in the new century.) Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of US foreign aid since WWII. Since the Reagan administration, however, the United States has been fervently against the construction of new settlements in Westbank. Yet, even to this day Israel continues to build new settlements in this Israeli occupied piece of Palestinian territory.

Ronald Reagan once said that there is no reason for Israel to build these settlements, and described the cessation of this construction as the signal of trust neccesary for peace.

Now, what does this have to do with our foreign aid? Well, the United States never hands out money without a condition. We give massive amounts of ODA to Indian medical facilities, but in return we expect them to refrain from offering or advertising abortion. (Even though abortion is legal in India and America has the most liberal abortion laws in the world. This is what we refer to as the ‘international gag law.’)

Now, I don’t think that’s entirely fair of us. How can we expect Indians to stop having abortions when Americans refuse to do the same thing? Yet, it’s our money and we have a right to put whatever conditions upon it we so chose. If India isn’t willing to stop offering abortions then that’s fine, they are not obliged to accept the deal. But once they’ve made this agreement I expect them to live up to it. Should they fail to do so I would immediately advocate the cessation of future foreign aid until they were more compliant.

One of our conditions on Israel is that they stop building in Westbank. Yet, what do they continue to do?

Now, I do understand their side. They’re upset because we’re making demands of them that we ourselves wouldn’t live up to. It’s unfair and I can see why Israel might be upset. The difference is, however, that Israel isn’t sending us billions of tax dollars in foreign aid every year. No, actually it’s the very opposite to that. They were plenty happy with our dealings when it was flooding money into their system, but now that it’s their turn to live up to the bargain…

That’s why I advocate the immediate withdrawal of all US funding in Israel. Now, you all know I support Israel. But, they’re not living up to their end of the bargain. In other words, they’re deadbeats and we should avoid future dealings with them until they get their head on straight.

What are your thoughts and comments?

Yei
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09
Sure, then maybe Israel would ease up it's extreme oppression and think twice before massacring people. That, along with the ending of more illegal settlements being built, might actually start some real progress.
Moderator XIV
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09
If anything we should stop funding them because it has become a political handicap. They do very little to help America, they don't keep their word to us, and it puts us in a bad light internationally. Sure they will be in a bad spot if we stop and they wont like us, but the cold hard truth is that without American and UN support Israel would have already been subjugated by a neighbor one way or the other. Also again, they are no threat to us militarily.

The reality is that every middle eastern nation loves war. There has not been a period of any real length in the last 500 years that there was not a war of some kind in that region. Palestinians and Israelis want to kill each other and it is that simple, we may as well let them to be honest.
Yei
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Posted 7/30/09

Karkarov wrote:

If anything we should stop funding them because it has become a political handicap. They do very little to help America, they don't keep their word to us, and it puts us in a bad light internationally. Sure they will be in a bad spot if we stop and they wont like us, but the cold hard truth is that without American and UN support Israel would have already been subjugated by a neighbor one way or the other. Also again, they are no threat to us militarily.

The reality is that every middle eastern nation loves war. There has not been a period of any real length in the last 500 years that there was not a war of some kind in that region. Palestinians and Israelis want to kill each other and it is that simple, we may as well let them to be honest.


The only real threat for Israel I can see is from Iran. And no, it's not that simple.
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Posted 7/30/09

Yei wrote:

Sure, then maybe Israel would ease up it's extreme oppression and think twice before massacring people. That, along with the ending of more illegal settlements being built, might actually start some real progress.


I’ m still not convinced that Israel’s all that bad so far as oppression goes. Westbank is a given, but outside of that region I actually think they’re nicer to the Palestinians than anyone else in that region. Even in their armed conflicts casualties are low, compared to other western wars.
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Posted 7/30/09
hmm .. i agree with the deadbeats thingy .. as i see it'll be just a waste
.. or .. they could reduce the funding amount ..
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Posted 7/30/09

Karkarov wrote:

If anything we should stop funding them because it has become a political handicap. They do very little to help America, they don't keep their word to us, and it puts us in a bad light internationally. Sure they will be in a bad spot if we stop and they wont like us, but the cold hard truth is that without American and UN support Israel would have already been subjugated by a neighbor one way or the other. Also again, they are no threat to us militarily.

The reality is that every middle eastern nation loves war. There has not been a period of any real length in the last 500 years that there was not a war of some kind in that region. Palestinians and Israelis want to kill each other and it is that simple, we may as well let them to be honest.


hmm .. what makes " every middle eastern nation loves war" ?
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Posted 7/30/09

Karkarov wrote:

If anything we should stop funding them because it has become a political handicap. They do very little to help America, they don't keep their word to us, and it puts us in a bad light internationally. Sure they will be in a bad spot if we stop and they wont like us, but the cold hard truth is that without American and UN support Israel would have already been subjugated by a neighbor one way or the other. Also again, they are no threat to us militarily.

The reality is that every middle eastern nation loves war. There has not been a period of any real length in the last 500 years that there was not a war of some kind in that region. Palestinians and Israelis want to kill each other and it is that simple, we may as well let them to be honest.


Actually, you would be surprised how useful Israel is to us in the military and technological zones. Also, since they’re a democratic bastion in the Middle East relatively friendly to the western world they’re a strategic ally. One example is that much of what people CALL foreign aid to Israel is actually entirely about mutual benefit.

This being said, there’s a reason the UN is so biased against Israel. Because the Muslim/Arab states hate Israel and they also have the oil. Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia alone control a full 50% of the world’s oil. They’ve used this to blackmail African states into boycotting Israel, and even Japan almost boycotted Israel for fear of being blocked off from oil trade with the Arab league. The only reason they didn’t is because they found that if they gave humanitarian aid to Palestine most of the Arab states would ignore the Leagues attempt to enforce an anti-Japan boycott.

Most nations today place a priority on trade with the Arab/Muslim states over trade with Israel. So, the UN continuously condemns Israel while ignoring things like Dafur and thus it’s members stay in good with the oil lords.

Yei
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Posted 7/30/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

Sure, then maybe Israel would ease up it's extreme oppression and think twice before massacring people. That, along with the ending of more illegal settlements being built, might actually start some real progress.


I’ m still not convinced that Israel’s all that bad so far as oppression goes. Westbank is a given, but outside of that region I actually think they’re nicer to the Palestinians than anyone else in that region. Even in their armed conflicts casualties are low, compared to other western wars.


I don't think Gaza vs. Israel is a war. It's more like putting one million people in a big prison then responding to their inevitable terrorist attacks with even worse terrorism.

Israel doesn't treat them as bad as it could be, but it's still unacceptably bad. To the point where many people's lives are destroyed and can't make a decent living under the conditions they're in, and can't even leave.
Posted 7/30/09
"America's not that rich, mate."

On Topic:
What we should do first is learn how to ply our money. If not, the government wil just find some other materiality to spend money unwisely.
Moderator XIV
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Posted 7/30/09
Israel's benefit to America is far outweighed by it's bad side. The whole "they are a democracy" nonsense also does not fly. America has gotten involved in more pointless wars protecting corrupt nations that were "democratic" than it is worth talking about. Ever heard of a country named Vietnam? It is time to grow up and accept that not everyone wants to be or will be a democracy and start dealing with nations on the level.

As for those dirty trade tactics... This isn't the kindergarten play ground, it is called politics and everyone does it. You ally with who best serves your goals long term, not with who you like the most. You also use what resources you have to control and or eliminate your opposition. Many conflicts over the years have been won economically it is honestly much nicer than some other options. Israel should be trying to fix things with the other middle eastern nations because that is in their best interest long term, but the question is are they?
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09

Yei

I’ m still not convinced that Israel’s all that bad so far as oppression goes. Westbank is a given, but outside of that region I actually think they’re nicer to the Palestinians than anyone else in that region. Even in their armed conflicts casualties are low, compared to other western wars.

I don't think Gaza vs. Israel is a war. It's more like putting one million people in a big prison then responding to their inevitable terrorist attacks with even worse terrorism.

Israel doesn't treat them as bad as it could be, but it's still unacceptably bad. To the point where many people's lives are destroyed and can't make a decent living under the conditions they're in, and can't even leave.


This is something I have trouble understanding about your side of the argument, but I’m willing to listen if you’ll explain this to me. How is it that people believe that Hamas terrorist attacks from Gaza are only in response to Israel’s blockade of that region when the wall itself was only constructed in response to terrorist attacks?

During the 1992 elections terrorist attacks landed in Israel and killed a five year old Jewish girl. In much the way that the Iranian people used Neda as a symbol of outrage against their government, Israelis used this young girl as a symbol of their anger at the government’s failure to protect them. As a result candidate Yitzhak Rabin, who’d been campaigning on a promise to release 5,000 Palestinian prisoners, experienced a profound decline in popularity polls. It was then that began talking about taking “Gaza out of Tel Aviv.”

In May of that same year a Palestinian terrorist attacked and stabbed to death a 15 year old Israeli girl. Mobs of angry relatives and peers retaliated by lynching and wounding six Arabs. Israeli police arrested thirty Jews, but this incident created a bilateral support of Rabin’s proposition.

Then in 1994 Hamas operatives infiltrated Tel Aviv (Israel’s largest and most densely populated city,) and executed what was at that time the deadliest suicide bombing in Israeli history. Blowing up a passenger bus loaded with civilians the bomber killed twenty two innocent Israeli’s and wounded fifty others. In cognition to this Israeli residents in the villages of Bat Hefer and Matan were coming under fire from Palestinian villages 200 metres away.

So, why is the wall the cause of Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel when the wall was only built because of popular pressure from the Israeli’s which resulted from Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel? It is simply impossible for effect to precede cause, but the Hamas terrorist attacks (and indeed terrorist attacks in general) predate the wall itself.

Now it has been suggested a few times that the wall was not constructed to stop terrorist attacks. After all, the Palestinian workforce which dominantly made its living under Israeli employment prior to the wall was gradually replaced by Jewish employees after the wall. This solved an unemployment problem that’d been growing in Israeli border villages and cities. But the idea was not new. During the Mandate the British worked with Charles Tegart to build a security fence for this same type of thing. So, it’s not like the Israeli’s just suddenly thought about imprisoning the Arabs. They idea had been present in that region since before Israel even existed. Tegart also instigated the construction of a series of checkpoints and road blocks, later nicknamed “Montgomery’s teeth” which are precisely similar to the Israeli checkpoints and roadblocks in Westbank. It should also be noted that during this time period security walls are a popular trend in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia began a security blockade on Yemen in 2004. In 2006 Iraq began construction on a security fence on Saudi Arabia.

Moreover, Rabin only agreed to the wall to insure his reelection in the 1996 race, after a second Dizengoff bombing. This bombing took place on the Jewish holiday of Purim, and Hamas proudly took credit. The operative attempted first to gain access to a shopping mall in Tel Aviv, but was halted by police stationed outside. He instead took off for a crowd of hundreds of civilians (mostly parents taking their young children to a celebration within the mall) standing in line for a cash machines. The police managed to shout a warning allowing the crowds to scatter, but 13 were still killed and an additional 130 were wounded including large numbers of children dressed in tradition Jewish honor costumes for the holiday celebrations.

Now, imagine this took place in Canada. Imagine a group of children gathered before the Canadian flag singing, “O Canada,” and then they’re blown to bits and this is aired on national news. How do you think the Canadian people would react? Now imagine that this was the fourth time it had happened in a week.

Personally, I think that the WALL is the inevitable outcome of terrorist attacks from Gaza, not the opposite.


EDIT: I'm going to make a thread about this.
Yei
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei

I’ m still not convinced that Israel’s all that bad so far as oppression goes. Westbank is a given, but outside of that region I actually think they’re nicer to the Palestinians than anyone else in that region. Even in their armed conflicts casualties are low, compared to other western wars.

I don't think Gaza vs. Israel is a war. It's more like putting one million people in a big prison then responding to their inevitable terrorist attacks with even worse terrorism.

Israel doesn't treat them as bad as it could be, but it's still unacceptably bad. To the point where many people's lives are destroyed and can't make a decent living under the conditions they're in, and can't even leave.


This is something I have trouble understanding about your side of the argument, but I’m willing to listen if you’ll explain this to me. How is it that people believe that Hamas terrorist attacks from Gaza are only in response to Israel’s blockade of that region when the wall itself was only constructed in response to terrorist attacks?

During the 1992 elections terrorist attacks landed in Israel and killed a five year old Jewish girl. In much the way that the Iranian people used Neda as a symbol of outrage against their government, Israelis used this young girl as a symbol of their anger at the government’s failure to protect them. As a result candidate Yitzhak Rabin, who’d been campaigning on a promise to release 5,000 Palestinian prisoners, experienced a profound decline in popularity polls. It was then that began talking about taking “Gaza out of Tel Aviv.”

In May of that same year a Palestinian terrorist attacked and stabbed to death a 15 year old Israeli girl. Mobs of angry relatives and peers retaliated by lynching and wounding six Arabs. Israeli police arrested thirty Jews, but this incident created a bilateral support of Rabin’s proposition.

Then in 1994 Hamas operatives infiltrated Tel Aviv (Israel’s largest and most densely populated city,) and executed what was at that time the deadliest suicide bombing in Israeli history. Blowing up a passenger bus loaded with civilians the bomber killed twenty two innocent Israeli’s and wounded fifty others. In cognition to this Israeli residents in the villages of Bat Hefer and Matan were coming under fire from Palestinian villages 200 metres away.

So, why is the wall the cause of Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel when the wall was only built because of popular pressure from the Israeli’s which resulted from Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel? It is simply impossible for effect to precede cause, but the Hamas terrorist attacks (and indeed terrorist attacks in general) predate the wall itself.

Now it has been suggested a few times that the wall was not constructed to stop terrorist attacks. After all, the Palestinian workforce which dominantly made its living under Israeli employment prior to the wall was gradually replaced by Jewish employees after the wall. This solved an unemployment problem that’d been growing in Israeli border villages and cities. But the idea was not new. During the Mandate the British worked with Charles Tegart to build a security fence for this same type of thing. So, it’s not like the Israeli’s just suddenly thought about imprisoning the Arabs. They idea had been present in that region since before Israel even existed. Tegart also instigated the construction of a series of checkpoints and road blocks, later nicknamed “Montgomery’s teeth” which are precisely similar to the Israeli checkpoints and roadblocks in Westbank. It should also be noted that during this time period security walls are a popular trend in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia began a security blockade on Yemen in 2004. In 2006 Iraq began construction on a security fence on Saudi Arabia.

Moreover, Rabin only agreed to the wall to insure his reelection in the 1996 race, after a second Dizengoff bombing. This bombing took place on the Jewish holiday of Purim, and Hamas proudly took credit. The operative attempted first to gain access to a shopping mall in Tel Aviv, but was halted by police stationed outside. He instead took off for a crowd of hundreds of civilians (mostly parents taking their young children to a celebration within the mall) standing in line for a cash machines. The police managed to shout a warning allowing the crowds to scatter, but 13 were still killed and an additional 130 were wounded including large numbers of children dressed in tradition Jewish honor costumes for the holiday celebrations.

Now, imagine this took place in Canada. Imagine a group of children gathered before the Canadian flag singing, “O Canada,” and then they’re blown to bits and this is aired on national news. How do you think the Canadian people would react? Now imagine that this was the fourth time it had happened in a week.

Personally, I think that the WALL is the inevitable outcome of terrorist attacks from Gaza, not the opposite.


EDIT: I'm going to make a thread about this.


I wasn't talking about the wall. I was talking about the recent conflict, where they created a humanitarian crisis in Gaza before massacring hundreds of people. But ultimately, I'm talking about the treatment of people in Gaza and the Westbank that has been bad long before that

The way Israel has dealt with Palestinians from the beginning has made it so that terrorism is inevitable. And it would be ridiculous to think otherwise, antisemitic culture AND they ethnically cleansed them? 4.5 million still in refugee camps, a lot still have the deeds to their lands and homes that were stolen in 1948. Many Palestinians obviously are going to still hate Israel throughout the years, but Israel doesn't help the situation by treating them worse and worse.

Israel has consistently treated Palestinians like dirt, this is what many people see and this is the main reason to be against Israel. It's very simple. Terrorism from Palestinians then becomes expected and it would be shocking if there wasn't any.

The root of the problem is the treatment of the Palestinians received in 1948. Then they get screwed over again and again from 1967 on. And then Israel responds to their terrorism with even worse terrorism? To me it's not a very complicated situation, and it's very clear what the problem is.

I strongly urge anyone who wants to have a proper understanding of this conflict to watch this documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs

People need to understand how Palestinians are treated under occupation, because very few people seem to have any idea of how bad it is. The IRA started because Britain was oppressing them but wasn't even an occupying force. Imagine an occupying oppressing force that has no regard for international law or basic human rights.
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09

YeiThe root of the problem is the treatment of the Palestinians received in 1948. Then they get screwed over again and again from 1967 on. And then Israel responds to their terrorism with even worse terrorism? To me it's not a very complicated situation, and it's very clear what the problem is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SbjAanvUqs


Well, they weren’t Palestinians in 1948. They were Arabs. Their treatment was terrible, but it was also a inexorable response to the Arab League’s attempted genocide against the Jews. You get together a bunch of desperate holocaust survivors and try to kill them, you can bet your arse they’re going to go overboard in retaliation.

Also, neither Gaza nor the Westbank were under the control of the Palestinians when they were captured by Israel. The Palestinian populations in these regions were actually minute at that time, but they grew due to hyper immigration and rapid birth rates. Which leads me to the question: if life in these regions is so terrible, why do the Palestinians keep coming here and why do they keep having so many children?

Westbank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. When these two nations attacked Israel, Israel captured the territory from THEM. Not the Palestinians. In addition, while Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian Arabs was terrible it was comparatively more moderate than the treatment of the Palestinian Arabs by Arab states. So, if that was the root of the problem then why isn’t Lebanon getting hit by terrorists? They were massacring refugee camps full of Palestinians up until very, very recently. Well, the answer is because they’re not Jews.
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Posted 7/30/09 , edited 7/30/09
Thats why Israel is so nice to the Palestinians that they starve them to the point they have to eat grass, build roads for Israeli only and continue to occupy and build settlements. Man these are the nicest people in the world!!
/sarcasm off

Like Yei said and Norman Finkelstine this isnt complicated it is like black and white. The Palestinians was screwed over since 1948, they were are still being ethnically cleansed for Israel and we are all in shock and aw when we see a Palestinian attack in Israel. We act as if right now since there is a cease fire everything is all peaceful nobody is fighting while the Palestinians as I speak is still under occupation living in a huge concentration camp. Only time will tell when they get fed up again and launch another attack on Israel.

Why does America keep supporting Israel I believe there are certain factors mainly I believe the large influence Israel plays in our policies. There is this "unbreakable bonds" relationship lord knows how it started and if one questions this relationship he is deemed an anti-semite. Not like they are the best of friends to us either they have killed Americans (USS liberty http://www.gtr5.com/). Jonathan Pollard spied on the US releasing sensitive information to Israel on the claim of, "preventing a second holocaust". Now of course Israel demands for his release and gets this they want to have him tried in Israel. Imagine lol being tried in your own country for spying for them. Makes no sense does it. Then there is AIPAC, ADL, our pro Israel media.

If we want to stop looking like hypocrities I say stop the funding. If we want to put pressure on Israel to obey international law which they dont and never will as long as we back them up stop the funding. If we want Israel to stop settlement building stop funding. Otherwise the saga continues 60 years with no solution.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.”
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