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Advocatus Diaboli
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/14/09
A Devil’s Advocate is one who takes up a stance during an argument with which he disagrees and then debates in favor of the opposition. So, for example, I’m pro-life. If I were to take the role of Devil’s Advocate during a debate I would make the argument for the pro-choice spectrum of this issue. This is a very powerful tool for sharpening your intellectual abilities, opening your mind, and exorcising your debate talents. I was wondering if anybody would be interested in taking place in a debate upon which it is understood that all participants will be arguing for stances with which they do not agree. Some topics to consider this in:

Abortion
Israel
Capital Punishment
Homosexual Marriage
Nature vs. Nurture in homosexuality
Islam v. Christianity
Atheism v. Religion
Cretion v. Evolution
Global Warming


ext

EDIT
digs has agreed to let us use his debate group for this. So, let me know which topics -you- would like to do and I'll start a thread for it. Hit me up by quoting me in this thread or sending me a priv mes
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digs 
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Posted 8/12/09
I think it would be interesting. I'de take the opposing stance on something XD I think it would be cool (personally for me) to advocate for evolution or argue against Israel.
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Posted 8/12/09



I used to do this, back in my old school debate clubs.

So I know all about it.... I had to take Hitlers side, and Justify his goals in a debate (I did win that one.)
I also had to take the side of Early American solder vs the Native Americans.. I hated to fight on the solders side wen I new what they did was mostly do to greed. (I did loose that one, My heart was not into that challenge at the time.)
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Posted 8/12/09
So we’ve got two people interested. Which topics specifically would you be most interested in arguing for the opposition, Dark? Also, how do you guys think we should do it? Should we create a group specifically for this, or should we just create threads for each topic here in the ED section, or maybe start discussions in this thread?
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09
Good post but lol Islam v Christianity whats there to debate? We Muslims could care less if someone practices Christianity or any other religions. We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven. With that being said it would be pointless for Muslims and Christians to hold a debate. Lol even on the 100 christian threads you dont even see muslims getting on there challenging their religion if they do it is only one person who makes one post out of the 70+ posts on the thread. What should be talked about is the similarities between the two because a lot of the stories of the prophets are about the same. Atheism v Religion is more suitable.
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drizza wrote:

Good post but lol Islam v Christianity whats there to debate? We Muslims could care less if someone practices Christianity or any other religions. We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven. With that being said it would be pointless for Muslims and Christians to hold a debate. Lol even on the 100 christian threads you dont even see muslims getting on there challenging their religion if they do it is only one person who makes one post out of the 70+ posts on the thread. What should be talked about is the similarities between the two because a lot of the stories of the prophets are about the same. Atheism v Religion is more suitable.


Once again you’re speaking on behalf of the entire Islamic population, Drizza, but the fact is you’re the minority on this issue as you know it. Actually, repeatedly (and Diggs can back me up on this,) there were points when Muslims on Crunchy Roll engaged in arguments with Christians inside of the Christian threads; for example, one argued that Islam was more modern and progressive because Christianity is polytheistic. Another commented that the bible is full of contradictions and corrupted by the Christians. Yet another claimed that the Qur’an is superior to the bible because there is only one version. And STILL another argued that Islam is superior because Christianity is scientifically incorrect while Islam and the Qur’an predicted scientific elements ages before they were discovered.

Let's take a trip to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkJk-dMDEqE Muslim attacking Christian beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ummahfilms

As far as your claim that anyone who believes in God and is righteous being saved according to Islam, I won’t argue. It’s your religion, after all. However, just an interesting story about something I once encountered. There was a video posted on Youtube in which a Christian apparently claimed to have located contradictions in the Qur’an. He cited verses claiming that Christians go to hell and verses that said the opposite. A Sunni posted a counter argument saying that the verses he cited to say that Christians go to paradise were referencing Christians prior to and during the life of Muhammad (pbuh). The Sunni even cited a verse saying that Christians before Muhammad would find paradise but that after Muhammad Islam is the only way to paradise.

Muhammad Rashid Rida is regarded as one of the most influential Muslim scholars at the
turn of the last century. He argued that Christians will go to hell. Muhammad Muhammad Abu Zahra, almost as renowned, argued the opposite. Rashid Rida said that there’s no such thing as a righteous Christian.

So, some Muslims and Christians may think this is an interesting topic to argue. Personally, I agree with your belief except that I extend it further. I believe, based on a few biblical verses and my own mystic’s intuition, that anyone who chooses to do good will be saved.


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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


drizza wrote:

Good post but lol Islam v Christianity whats there to debate? We Muslims could care less if someone practices Christianity or any other religions. We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven. With that being said it would be pointless for Muslims and Christians to hold a debate. Lol even on the 100 christian threads you dont even see muslims getting on there challenging their religion if they do it is only one person who makes one post out of the 70+ posts on the thread. What should be talked about is the similarities between the two because a lot of the stories of the prophets are about the same. Atheism v Religion is more suitable.


Once again you’re speaking on behalf of the entire Islamic population, Drizza, but the fact is you’re the minority on this issue as you know it. Actually, repeatedly (and Diggs can back me up on this,) there were points when Muslims on Crunchy Roll engaged in arguments with Christians inside of the Christian threads; for example, one argued that Islam was more modern and progressive because Christianity is polytheistic. Another commented that the bible is full of contradictions and corrupted by the Christians. Yet another claimed that the Qur’an is superior to the bible because there is only one version. And STILL another argued that Islam is superior because Christianity is scientifically incorrect while Islam and the Qur’an predicted scientific elements ages before they were discovered.

Let's take a trip to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkJk-dMDEqE Muslim attacking Christian beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ummahfilms

As far as your claim that anyone who believes in God and is righteous being saved according to Islam, I won’t argue. It’s your religion, after all. However, just an interesting story about something I once encountered. There was a video posted on Youtube in which a Christian apparently claimed to have located contradictions in the Qur’an. He cited verses claiming that Christians go to hell and verses that said the opposite. A Sunni posted a counter argument saying that the verses he cited to say that Christians go to paradise were referencing Christians prior to and during the life of Muhammad (pbuh). The Sunni even cited a verse saying that Christians before Muhammad would find paradise but that after Muhammad Islam is the only way to paradise.

Muhammad Rashid Rida is regarded as one of the most influential Muslim scholars at the
turn of the last century. He argued that Christians will go to hell. Muhammad Muhammad Abu Zahra, almost as renowned, argued the opposite. Rashid Rida said that there’s no such thing as a righteous Christian.

So, some Muslims and Christians may think this is an interesting topic to argue. Personally, I agree with your belief except that I extend it further. I believe, based on a few biblical verses and my own mystic’s intuition, that anyone who chooses to do good will be saved.




Well I posted the quote many many times in the Quran where it stated it doesnt matter what religion you are and yes I dont need to watch those youtube videos as there is a minority who will debate it. But largely none really cares. Just two people talking about each other holy book which none of them reads. You tell an Aethiest, "It says here in the Bible blah blah." And his response is, " I dont read the bible so I dont care what you have to say." Same with Islam and Christianity pointless debate leads no where. It doesnt say in our book if your not a muslim you go to hell. You can quote muslims all you like but I quote the scripture and any muslim can tell you that you dont have to be muslim to go to heaven.

Look nobody is perfect so of course you will see a muslim attacking another religion. Do we not see Christians and Jews attacking Islam especially in this country? My point is just pointless we all read different books.
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09
Atheism v. Religion is wrong, it should be No Religion v. Religion. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, atheists can still have a religion. Atheism v. Deism, with no religion involved, makes alot more sense.

I'd try the opposite for Israel, any Religion/Atheism/Deism debate and homosexuality.



drizza wrote:
We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven.


Then what does verse 3:85 really mean? It specifically says no religion other than Islam is acceptable.
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Posted 8/12/09

Yei wrote:

Atheism v. Religion is wrong, it should be No Religion v. Religion. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, atheists can still have a religion. Atheism v. Deism, with no religion involved, makes alot more sense.

I'd try the opposite for Israel, any Religion/Atheism/Deism debate and homosexuality.



drizza wrote:
We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven.


Then what does verse 3:85 really mean? It specifically says no religion other than Islam is acceptable.


Well it would be more logical because Athesists try to prove God doesnt exist while religion states otherwise. But two religions duking it out is stupid like I stated we all read the different books and it will just lead no where. Regarding that quote if you notice in parenthesis Submission to God. Thats what Islam means most religions are taught to be submissive to God. I am not the best person to put that in context though I can ask Ansar when he gets back from his trip he puts them all for me.
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Posted 8/12/09

drizza wrote:


Yei wrote:

Atheism v. Religion is wrong, it should be No Religion v. Religion. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, atheists can still have a religion. Atheism v. Deism, with no religion involved, makes alot more sense.

I'd try the opposite for Israel, any Religion/Atheism/Deism debate and homosexuality.



drizza wrote:
We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven.


Then what does verse 3:85 really mean? It specifically says no religion other than Islam is acceptable.


Well it would be more logical because Athesists try to prove God doesnt exist while religion states otherwise. But two religions duking it out is stupid like I stated we all read the different books and it will just lead no where. Regarding that quote if you notice in parenthesis Submission to God. Thats what Islam means most religions are taught to be submissive to God. I am not the best person to put that in context though I can ask Ansar when he gets back from his trip he puts them all for me.


"Religion" states otherwise? Christianity, Islam and Judaism yes, but there's alot more religions that and many don't have any God(s). Religion shouldn't be generalized like that, and many people who believe in God are against religion, so Atheism v. Religion isn't good.

My translation says "a religion other than Islam" but I can see how it could mean "a religion that doesn't require submission to God." So then not all religions are acceptable, because not all require submission to God.
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Posted 8/12/09

drizza wrote:

Well I posted the quote many many times in the Quran where it stated it doesnt matter what religion you are and yes I dont need to watch those youtube videos as there is a minority who will debate it. But largely none really cares. Just two people talking about each other holy book which none of them reads. You tell an Aethiest, "It says here in the Bible blah blah." And his response is, " I dont read the bible so I dont care what you have to say." Same with Islam and Christianity pointless debate leads no where. It doesnt say in our book if your not a muslim you go to hell. You can quote muslims all you like but I quote the scripture and any muslim can tell you that you dont have to be muslim to go to heaven.


Whatever, Dirzza. What topics would you be interested in swapping sides on?
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:


Yei wrote:

Atheism v. Religion is wrong, it should be No Religion v. Religion. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, atheists can still have a religion. Atheism v. Deism, with no religion involved, makes alot more sense.

I'd try the opposite for Israel, any Religion/Atheism/Deism debate and homosexuality.



drizza wrote:
We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven.


Then what does verse 3:85 really mean? It specifically says no religion other than Islam is acceptable.


Well it would be more logical because Athesists try to prove God doesnt exist while religion states otherwise. But two religions duking it out is stupid like I stated we all read the different books and it will just lead no where. Regarding that quote if you notice in parenthesis Submission to God. Thats what Islam means most religions are taught to be submissive to God. I am not the best person to put that in context though I can ask Ansar when he gets back from his trip he puts them all for me.


"Religion" states otherwise? Christianity, Islam and Judaism yes, but there's alot more religions that and many don't have any God(s). Religion shouldn't be generalized like that, and many people who believe in God are against religion, so Atheism v. Religion isn't good.

My translation says "a religion other than Islam" but I can see how it could mean "a religion that doesn't require submission to God." So then not all religions are acceptable, because not all require submission to God.


Well Yei if you think about if an Athesist would debate a religious person wouldnt those three religions you just mentioned would be the target? You dont see them debating HIndus much they usually debate Christians thus you see the 100 of Athesists vs Chrstiain threads on this forum. If the other religions dont believe that there is a God then of course they are in the same page of an Atheists (well not exactly but what else would they talk about?).

Like I said about that quote I am not good at it but it can be put into context. I seen quotes that I couldnt put into context but I dont automatically take it for what I see I ask a muslim who is more intelligent then me about the religion to help me out. Like I stated I believe in the last religious thread you asked me what happens if your not a muslim would you go to hell? I posted the whole quote in the Quran where is speaks about Jews, Chrisitans, righteous people being accepted to heaven. BTW have you any many muslims who said since you dont believe in Islam you will not be accepted into heaven or you will go to hell? I been told I would go to hell many times if I didnt accept Jesus as my savior.
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09

drizza wrote:

Well Yei if you think about if an Athesist would debate a religious person wouldnt those three religions you just mentioned would be the target? You dont see them debating HIndus much they usually debate Christians thus you see the 100 of Athesists vs Chrstiain threads on this forum. If the other religions dont believe that there is a God then of course they are in the same page of an Atheists (well not exactly but what else would they talk about?).


Anti-Religion v. Religion fits for everyone, both atheists and theists who are against religion. We really shouldn't make ignorant generalizations, so we should stick with that and Atheism v. Deism.




Like I said about that quote I am not good at it but it can be put into context. I seen quotes that I couldnt put into context but I dont automatically take it for what I see I ask a muslim who is more intelligent then me about the religion to help me out. Like I stated I believe in the last religious thread you asked me what happens if your not a muslim would you go to hell? I posted the whole quote in the Quran where is speaks about Jews, Chrisitans, righteous people being accepted to heaven. BTW have you any many muslims who said since you dont believe in Islam you will not be accepted into heaven or you will go to hell? I been told I would go to hell many times if I didnt accept Jesus as my savior.


Yes, all my Muslim friends, except my one 'Ahmadi Muslim' friend, agree that if you're not Muslim you go to hell. And what's the relevance of being told you'd go to hell if you didn't accept Jesus?
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


drizza wrote:

Well I posted the quote many many times in the Quran where it stated it doesnt matter what religion you are and yes I dont need to watch those youtube videos as there is a minority who will debate it. But largely none really cares. Just two people talking about each other holy book which none of them reads. You tell an Aethiest, "It says here in the Bible blah blah." And his response is, " I dont read the bible so I dont care what you have to say." Same with Islam and Christianity pointless debate leads no where. It doesnt say in our book if your not a muslim you go to hell. You can quote muslims all you like but I quote the scripture and any muslim can tell you that you dont have to be muslim to go to heaven.


Whatever, Dirzza. What topics would you be interested in swapping sides on?


Well you are right I cant speak for all muslims but me from experiance I havent came across muslims who cared to debate which religion is right. Usually or for what I have seen and my own personal experiance when it is known that me and my friends are muslims and a bible is pulled out we quickly let them know even though we dont see Jesus as our savior we have much respect for him, he is a prophet of Islam. Also on many forums I go to there isnt Muslim v Christian unless it is bashing the stereotypes of Islam. As far as the devils advocate let me think on that one a little more lol I read the first post to quickly.
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Posted 8/12/09 , edited 8/12/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Well Yei if you think about if an Athesist would debate a religious person wouldnt those three religions you just mentioned would be the target? You dont see them debating HIndus much they usually debate Christians thus you see the 100 of Athesists vs Chrstiain threads on this forum. If the other religions dont believe that there is a God then of course they are in the same page of an Atheists (well not exactly but what else would they talk about?).


Anti-Religion v. Religion fits for everyone, both atheists and theists who are against religion. We really shouldn't make ignorant generalizations, so we should stick with that and Atheism v. Deism.




Like I said about that quote I am not good at it but it can be put into context. I seen quotes that I couldnt put into context but I dont automatically take it for what I see I ask a muslim who is more intelligent then me about the religion to help me out. Like I stated I believe in the last religious thread you asked me what happens if your not a muslim would you go to hell? I posted the whole quote in the Quran where is speaks about Jews, Chrisitans, righteous people being accepted to heaven. BTW have you any many muslims who said since you dont believe in Islam you will not be accepted into heaven or you will go to hell? I been told I would go to hell many times if I didnt accept Jesus as my savior.


Yes, all my Muslim friends, except my one 'Ahmadi Muslim' friend, agree that if you're not Muslim you go to hell. And what's the relevance of being told you'd go to hell if you didn't accept Jesus?


Well Yei I am stating the obvious usually it is Athesists vs Religion. Athesists try to prove God isnt real while people who do believe in it tries to prove otherwise. This is where science and all that good stuff gets bought up in the debate. Yea you can say it is an ignorant generalization but Yei this debate is going on today and Athesists are even writing books about how God isnt real etc.

Wow thats the first time I heard that because the way I was raised and the mosques I been to I was never told you will go to hell if your not a muslim. Also many Imaams I heard we are told to respect the bible as if it our own Quran. Meaning we can't throw it away or burn it up the same with Churches as they are places of worship for God. I also heard stories where muslims protected places of worship for christians and Jews I cant remember them off my head though. I wish I could speak with your friend to see where he came up with that conclusion.
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