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Yei
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Posted 8/12/09

drizza wrote:

Wow thats the first time I heard that because the way I was raised and the mosques I been to I was never told you will go to hell if your not a muslim. Also many Imaams I heard we are told to respect the bible as if it our own Quran. Meaning we can't throw it away or burn it up the same with Churches as they are places of worship for God. I wish I could speak with your friend to see where he came up with that conclusion.


I think most Muslims respect Judaism and Christianity as religions sent by God. If someone is not Muslim, they don't pray five times a day, or fast on Ramadan or follow the Quran as the word of God, so it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that they go to hell.
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Posted 8/12/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Wow thats the first time I heard that because the way I was raised and the mosques I been to I was never told you will go to hell if your not a muslim. Also many Imaams I heard we are told to respect the bible as if it our own Quran. Meaning we can't throw it away or burn it up the same with Churches as they are places of worship for God. I wish I could speak with your friend to see where he came up with that conclusion.


I think most Muslims respect Judaism and Christianity as religions sent by God. If someone is not Muslim, they don't pray five times a day, or fast on Ramadan or follow the Quran as the word of God, so it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that they go to hell.


Well no because like I said we arent taught that way. In our religion God knows that their are many religions out there in the world and there is no way everyone can convert to same religion so we have to learn to live with one another. Thats why that quote I posted on that last thread about if your a non muslim will you go to hell was so important. This should have stopped some extremists muslims out there from trying to force their religions on others unless they will burn. All what you said in your last sentence is required of muslims only it doesnt say in the Quran if the non muslim doesnt do those things as well they will go to hell. Look I am not God so I cant judge nobody it would be extremely ignorant of me as a muslim to try to play the role of God and tell someone else they will go to hell for not believing the way I do. This world is to large for everyone to think the same way. God in the Quran is very merciful as well and in Islam there is no sin to great for God not to forgive. That being said we dont know how God will judge anyone on the day of judgement.
Yei
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Posted 8/12/09

drizza wrote:


Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Wow thats the first time I heard that because the way I was raised and the mosques I been to I was never told you will go to hell if your not a muslim. Also many Imaams I heard we are told to respect the bible as if it our own Quran. Meaning we can't throw it away or burn it up the same with Churches as they are places of worship for God. I wish I could speak with your friend to see where he came up with that conclusion.


I think most Muslims respect Judaism and Christianity as religions sent by God. If someone is not Muslim, they don't pray five times a day, or fast on Ramadan or follow the Quran as the word of God, so it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that they go to hell.


Well no because like I said we arent taught that way. In our religion God knows that their are many religions out there in the world and there is no way everyone can convert to same religion so we have to learn to live with one another. Thats why that quote I posted on that last thread about if your a non muslim will you go to hell was so important. This should have stopped some extremists muslims out there from trying to force their religions on others unless they will burn. All what you said in your last sentence is required of muslims only it doesnt say in the Quran if the non muslim doesnt do those things as well they will go to hell. Look I am not God so I cant judge nobody it would be extremely ignorant of me as a muslim to try to play the role of God and tell someone else they will go to hell for not believing the way I do. This world is to large for everyone to think the same way. God in the Quran is very merciful as well and in Islam there is no sin to great for God not to forgive. That being said we dont know how God will judge anyone on the day of judgement.


So if you convert out of Islam and become a Buddhist or something, would that be acceptable?
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Posted 8/12/09

Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:


Yei wrote:


drizza wrote:

Wow thats the first time I heard that because the way I was raised and the mosques I been to I was never told you will go to hell if your not a muslim. Also many Imaams I heard we are told to respect the bible as if it our own Quran. Meaning we can't throw it away or burn it up the same with Churches as they are places of worship for God. I wish I could speak with your friend to see where he came up with that conclusion.


I think most Muslims respect Judaism and Christianity as religions sent by God. If someone is not Muslim, they don't pray five times a day, or fast on Ramadan or follow the Quran as the word of God, so it's pretty easy to come to the conclusion that they go to hell.


Well no because like I said we arent taught that way. In our religion God knows that their are many religions out there in the world and there is no way everyone can convert to same religion so we have to learn to live with one another. Thats why that quote I posted on that last thread about if your a non muslim will you go to hell was so important. This should have stopped some extremists muslims out there from trying to force their religions on others unless they will burn. All what you said in your last sentence is required of muslims only it doesnt say in the Quran if the non muslim doesnt do those things as well they will go to hell. Look I am not God so I cant judge nobody it would be extremely ignorant of me as a muslim to try to play the role of God and tell someone else they will go to hell for not believing the way I do. This world is to large for everyone to think the same way. God in the Quran is very merciful as well and in Islam there is no sin to great for God not to forgive. That being said we dont know how God will judge anyone on the day of judgement.


So if you convert out of Islam and become a Buddhist or something, would that be acceptable?


Man I think I may the answer but I dont think it is right. Thats a very good question one I would like to hear a concrete answer for as well. If I answer it wrong I know someone will come and jump on my back. How about this so I dont forget send me a PM tomorrow lol I have to go to sleep right now gotta work early. Hopefully I can find an answer to that question.
Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09
Ehm, this sounds actually like a nice challenge. I'm in it. Doesn't matter what topic(all the ones you've mentioned are pretty decent for such an experiment)..if I'll get the chance to find my intellectual side, I'll join the convoy.
I know from prior experiences that depending on the controversy of a topic, that it might be really hard for some to delve deeper into the other side of the argument. For once, because the other stance is too absurd(subjective), or for the other, because they might be scared of the possibility that they might actually develop a deeper understanding for the other stance, and maybe even start to believe it...
But one thing is for sure..."know your enemy" is always handy, at least that's what Sun Tzu would have said. =p

PS: drizza and yei, and etc....why do I see you guys creating quote pyramids in every f*cking thread in the ED section? This thread is just two pages long, and the second page is already cluttered with quote pyramids. It sure as hell decreases the perceived value of this forum section, threads, your arguments, etc. It's a huge distraction having to scroll down miles of quotes just to get to YOUR point, and to reiterate, it decreases the perceived value of your input. So learn how to f*cking amend your posts already, as I've already noted in an OTHER thread in this section not long ago, but obviously everybody ignored me. So if you won't curtail the practice, then I'll ask a forum moderator to take care of you, since obviously the status over a user's name does bear some importance even for you kids.
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digs 
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Posted 8/13/09
Would anyone want to debate me on supporting creationism or supporting Israel? I would like to start XD

And about Islam. I have had some Muslims tell me that if I don't follow Islam that I will go to hell, I have had others say that I will go to heaven if I live a merciful life to others and practice morality. The controversy exists between differences in a few Quranic verses. Generally during the first part of the Quran, the book is friendly to Christians and Jews. But as the Quran progresses there are some more verses that seem to be against Jews and Christians. In the beginning the Quran even states that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews XD
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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

A Devil’s Advocate is one who takes up a stance during an argument with which he disagrees and then debates in favor of the opposition. So, for example, I’m pro-life. If I were to take the role of Devil’s Advocate during a debate I would make the argument for the pro-choice spectrum of this issue.

This is a very powerful tool for sharpening your intellectual abilities, opening your mind, and exorcising your debate talents. I was wondering if anybody would be interested in taking place in a debate upon which it is understood that all participants will be arguing for stances with which they do not agree. Some topics to consider this in:

Abortion
Israel
Capital Punishment
Homosexual Marriage
Nature vs. Nurture in homosexuality
Islam v. Christianity
Atheism v. Religion
Cretion v. Evolution
Global Warming


ext


This is interesting thread. So basically, we have to debate to against for what we believe, right?
Well, this is indeed some way to widen your view. In order not to bias, subjective or close-minded. It also practices you to explore how the opposite thinks. Our point of view can be divided in to different section for each subject. Sometimes you disagree for certain matter in against side but sometimes you feel 'I think he has point'. That always happen, right?

After all, all matter in human's perspective has 2 sides. Like Light and Darkness, no one is absolute right in human's opinion, view or understanding. This is great opportunity to seek the truth from different perspective, I'm in.

To participate I think we should make our stance clear, right? Well, My stance for the following topic is:
1. Abortion :
Against
2. Israel :
Against Israel
3. Capital Punishment :
In favor
4. Homosexual Marriage :
Against

5. Nature vs. Nurture in homosexuality :
not sure, but I think Nurture has more influence
6. Islam v. Christianity :
Islam
7. Atheism v. Religion :
Religion
8. Creation v. Evolution :
Both, until the extend of evolution that can't be explained
9. Global Warming :
........... Nature. (Care to elaborate? Do you meant between the nations in Kyoto Protocol or what?)

Well, has been said that. I think I won't participate in Islam vs Christianity. I don't have deep understanding in that. Everything is no problem, even though I don't really have support for Israel, I think it's okay. I'm not sure, how long I can, though.

Feel free~
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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09

digs wrote:

Would anyone want to debate me on supporting creationism or supporting Israel? I would like to start XD

And about Islam. I have had some Muslims tell me that if I don't follow Islam that I will go to hell, I have had others say that I will go to heaven if I live a merciful life to others and practice morality. The controversy exists between differences in a few Quranic verses. Generally during the first part of the Quran, the book is friendly to Christians and Jews. But as the Quran progresses there are some more verses that seem to be against Jews and Christians. In the beginning the Quran even states that the land of Israel belongs to the Jews XD


ugh.... support Israel? I don't have any interest on that. =_= Well, if you start first and your post make me interested, then I might go on~

As for Islam... it only consists for 1 belief. Those contradiction caused by person only. Because they don't have enough knowledge in some specific matter.

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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09
Ok guys lets chill with the Quran and lets get back on topic. Seraph this is interesting and if you do start a thread with people debating for issues they dont agree with it I will join. Israel, Homosexuality etc will be the key topics I will debate in favor for and I wont be sarcastic either.

@ Digs no muslim better yet no human being is God therefore nobody can tell you if your going to heaven or hell. If a muslim says this especially then he his condradicting what is being taught in the Quran because like I said there is a verse in there directly addressing Christians/Jews and the like and if you keep following your scriptures you will go to heaven. Thats all I am going to say because this thread is nothing about Islam but about debating topics you dont agree with.

@Yei I am at work so when I get a chance I will find an answer to that questio
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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

there were points when Muslims on Crunchy Roll engaged in arguments with Christians inside of the Christian threads; for example, one argued that Islam was more modern and progressive because Christianity is polytheistic. Another commented that the bible is full of contradictions and corrupted by the Christians. Yet another claimed that the Qur’an is superior to the bible because there is only one version. And STILL another argued that Islam is superior because Christianity is scientifically incorrect while Islam and the Qur’an predicted scientific elements ages before they were discovered.

Let's take a trip to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkJk-dMDEqE Muslim attacking Christian beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ummahfilms

As far as your claim that anyone who believes in God and is righteous being saved according to Islam, I won’t argue. It’s your religion, after all. However, just an interesting story about something I once encountered. There was a video posted on Youtube in which a Christian apparently claimed to have located contradictions in the Qur’an.

He cited verses claiming that Christians go to hell and verses that said the opposite. A Sunni posted a counter argument saying that the verses he cited to say that Christians go to paradise were referencing Christians prior to and during the life of Muhammad (pbuh). The Sunni even cited a verse saying that Christians before Muhammad would find paradise but that after Muhammad Islam is the only way to paradise.

Muhammad Rashid Rida is regarded as one of the most influential Muslim scholars at the
turn of the last century. He argued that Christians will go to hell. Muhammad Muhammad Abu Zahra, almost as renowned, argued the opposite. Rashid Rida said that there’s no such thing as a righteous Christian.

So, some Muslims and Christians may think this is an interesting topic to argue. Personally, I agree with your belief except that I extend it further. I believe, based on a few biblical verses and my own mystic’s intuition, that anyone who chooses to do good will be saved.




Thanks for the links, I liked it especially the second video. Haha~
Which video the Qur'an verses contradict to each other? I'd like to watch it. SO I can analyze it and make a statement as an Muslim.

Well, I also wished the man in first video could used better words. But, aside from that, what he said is true, no? I don't know much about Bible. But, yeah, I can't imagine a God could do filthy things. If He do it..... humanity will be perished in no time, lol.





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Posted 8/13/09

Yei wrote:

Atheism v. Religion is wrong, it should be No Religion v. Religion. Atheism isn't the opposite of religion, atheists can still have a religion. Atheism v. Deism, with no religion involved, makes alot more sense.

I'd try the opposite for Israel, any Religion/Atheism/Deism debate and homosexuality.



drizza wrote:
We dont care about which one is "right" because in the Quran it is stated as long as you believe in God or your a righteous person you will be accepted to heaven.


Then what does verse 3:85 really mean? It specifically says no religion other than Islam is acceptable.


Yes, it's clearly stated, that any religions other than Islam is not acceptable.
It's actually those religions (Christianity and Judaism) were accepted and true when Islam hasn't born yet. When the messenger of those religions not around, the humans of its follower modified the religions and twist the original teach. Moreover, the holy book.

That's why God only acknowledge Islam as the last and true religion for human beings in universal. Because it's couldn't be tainted.
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Posted 8/13/09

drizza wrote:

Well you are right I cant speak for all muslims but me from experiance I havent came across muslims who cared to debate which religion is right. Usually or for what I have seen and my own personal experiance when it is known that me and my friends are muslims and a bible is pulled out we quickly let them know even though we dont see Jesus as our savior we have much respect for him, he is a prophet of Islam. Also on many forums I go to there isnt Muslim v Christian unless it is bashing the stereotypes of Islam. As far as the devils advocate let me think on that one a little more lol I read the first post to quickly.


Have you ever noticed that nobody has that really nice car until you buy it? It’s called selective perception, and it’s a part of the human condition. People only see what they’re looking for. So, a teenage boy may be more likely to notice discrimination against men while overlooking an equal or greater prejudice against women.


Now, in my experience Muslims believe that anybody who rejects the revelations of Muhammad goes to hell. Those who were Christian prior to Muhammad, or never got a chance to hear Muhammad perhaps, are exempt from this. The Imam they had come to our school during my Survey of World Religions class told me this. That Sunni I was telling you about pulled out a citation from the Qur’an that seemed to confirm that to me. The introductory books I’ve picked up on Islam-all written by Sunni Muslims-all agree that Christians do not go to hell because they believe God is three in one and thereby are committing a serious sin by creating and worshipping a partner for and equal to the One True God.

This being said, American Muslim beliefs generally vary widely from tradition, orthodox, and standard Islamic teachings. Just like how in Italy and Rome they still follow the first church system that has always been in place, in America Christians are mostly protestant and have a more modern/progressive perspective of their own religion. So, I imagine that if you took a trip to Saudi Arabia (do you take the pilgrimage each year?) and asked somebody there, they’d have a very different perspective.

Who knows, maybe I need to do more research. Anyway, please do think on the question. I think it would be fun for me and you to switch sides on the Israel argument. I very much would like to try and pretend I’m pro-choice for a while too.
Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09
Anyway, Seraph, my question would be....will we proceed with the debate in this thread, or will you create a thread explicitly made for this debate experiment? If so...what subject is everyone willing to partake in the most? I would hope that it isn't a religious topic...again..but then again..it would be an interesting outcome.


drizza wrote:

@The cry baby yes you know who you are. Listen here kiddo I dont know you and I dont care what you think. So if you come to the forums annoyed at the way someone is posting at least be a mature person and send them a pm or tell them. I would have acknowledge your problems and amend my posts. Nobody is following your posts around so of course I probably missed it. Your not that important to me to keep up with you and probably vice versa. All I was doing was responding to people who responded to me I had no idea it would turn into such a topic and it seems like your the only one crying about it. Grow up and stop letting words hurt you. I ignored you the last time and will continue this time I dont want to ruin Seraphs thread arguing with a child who craves attention.


Look, attempting to flame me doesn't make you look any more mature than me, especially when all I did was notifying the posters in this thread that they should learn how to amend their posts since it decreases the perceived value of their input. I posted it in this thread, since I considered this as faster than PMing everyone who likes to post quote pyramids, especially since I assumed that most of you will come back to this thread, and hopefully see my post.


So if you come to the forums annoyed at the way someone is posting at least be a mature person and send them a pm or tell them.

Basically, I told you. So what was your issue again?

And sure, your words certainly don't hurt me. I mean..how could the words of a person who doesn't even possess the slightest hint of reading comprehension hurt me?

And talking about ignoring my post. Well, that isn't really a big deal since it was more of a referral to Yei, but if you mean to say that you also ignore the post of a moderator reprimanding users to at least use spoilers, then you really ought to re-prioritise some things(here). Of course, I can understand that you didn't see the posts, but still...I can't understand how it doesn't seem to be logical to you that nicely amended posts look better, and make it a much more enjoyable read than un-edited ones. I mean, most of you are regular users of this forum, and this for surely more than 6 months, so you should slowly get to know how to play around with bbcodes, and posts in general. Well, that's at least what I assumed since I thought that most of you do have enough IQ to understand the basics of forum courtesy.
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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

Thanks for the links, I liked it especially the second video. Haha~
Which video the Qur'an verses contradict to each other? I'd like to watch it. SO I can analyze it and make a statement as an Muslim.

Well, I also wished the man in first video could used better words. But, aside from that, what he said is true, no? I don't know much about Bible. But, yeah, I can't imagine a God could do filthy things. If He do it..... humanity will be perished in no time, lol.



I don’t really recall where the video was. I’m not even sure if it was on Youtube or some other streaming website.


Concerning the argument in the first video, it’s incorrect on two notes. First off:


His basic argument is that the bible says God is not tempted but the bible also says that Jesus was tempted; therefore, Jesus cannot be god.

James 1:13- “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.”

Mathew 4:1- “Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the dessert to be tempted by the devil.”

It is a classic three part deductive argument; you will come across a lot of these in debate and logic.

However, look at the verses he cites to argue that Jesus was tempted. When you read them in context you see that, yes. Satan tried to make Jesus do bad things. However, Jesus had no desire to do such a thing.

Imagine that we’re driving along and we see a man sitting on the side of the road with his pregnant wife. I then say, “Hey, let’s kill those two!” and you say, “No!” because you’re a good person and you don’t WANT to hurt other people. So, I am tempting you in that I am trying to convince you to do something. However, you are not tempted to do it because you do not have a desire to do something so heinous. I am tempting you; you are being tempted in the car as Jesus was being tempted in the desert but you are not tempted. You are subjected to my action of tempting but there is no temptation on your part; therefore, I could write that you were being tempted but are never tempted.

Next, in Christianity Jesus Christ was given two separate natures. He has the nature of God and the nature of Man. (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4). The whole idea of his sacrifice is that he came down and lived through the trails not of god, but of man, so that man could relate with their God. Jesus as a prophet came down so that we could understand God’s message, and as a man so that we could understand gods nature. If God is a foreign entity, like nothing in creation, then how can we have a relationship with him? If you cannot comprehend something, you cannot know it. How can you have a relationship with something you don’t even know?

So while his godly nature could not be tempted he still suffered the impulses of the flesh. It’s really a complicated theological concept and there’s actually no real consensus amongst the tens of thousands of Christian sects. Remember, we’re the only religion large than Islam, and we’re larger by far. Obviously we’re not all going to agree on every single thing.
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Posted 8/13/09 , edited 8/13/09


Fair enough I understand your view no need in arguing this point anymore. All I am asking to anyone who have a request of me just ask me because you called me a kid and started cussing. This is a great idea on this thread and I dont want it to be hampered of me getting into a flame war or the talk about Islam.

To Seraph and Digs please send me some links on where you guys get your info on Israel/Palestine I want to see your point of view so when this gets popping lol I can be on Israel side. Send me also one website which is anti-Islam along with being pro Israel.
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