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Inside the mind of a Martyr
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Posted 8/27/09

digs wrote:

The sites show the truth though... everything critical of Palestine isn't anti-Palestinians. Much like how everything criticizing Israel isn't anti-Semitic. The sites don't lie, so I don't see where the problem is. Exposing truth that may support Israel and show Palestinian terrorism isn't a bad thing.


Yeah, I know. Some of them are truth as I already read them. But who knows some of them are propaganda, like a this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNM5pfSdsjA

Yes, they are truth. But why he only posted the links and photos of how bad Israel people. Why not also post link of how bad Palestine condition of their shortage of water and live in miserable lives under Israel forces around? Both side has been damaged, we know. Thus, there's no reasons post unrelated source just to raise tensions. We are here to solve the solution, right? Correct me, if you guys not trying to talk about the solution, but just to defend your side and being stubborn.
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Posted 8/27/09 , edited 8/27/09

drizza wrote:

^Well how can you seperate the two? Me others believe suicide bombing is the result of Israels treatment while some people believe it is because they are Jews.


Suicide bombing isn't limited to Israel and Palestine. The majority of them happen in Iraq and Pakistan between Sunni and Shia Islam and between the Taliban and civilians. This thread is about the mind of suicide bombers an why they do the act.

@Ryutai- We are trying to find a solution, but the truth is that the Palestinians have elected Hamas... a group that's solution is genocide and the creation of an Islamic only state where Israel is. I know what Hamas says is against the Koran, in fact the Koran supports Israel's existence. We aren't defending Israel. We have said how it's wrong for them to occupy the West Bank etc. However, the Palestinians poverty isn't Israel's fault. We don't view Israel as evil or as the problem.
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Posted 8/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

As the view in our belief, suicide bomber had not been approved by from what Prophet was teach to his follower. After all, on that era, there was no technology to do such thing ~lol.

Indeed, in the teaching, we had been taught to defend ourselves in war, struggle to fight against our enemy and sacrifice yourself to gain victory for your army. However, in combat we did not allowed to destroy anything, either is building or Mother Earth (plant, ground... etc) as stated in Qur'an. It's clear that suicide bomber caused many of innocent lives lost and damaged the building as well.
Because of this, any suicide bomber is not allowed. In addition, we've been forbid to kill ourselves (suicide) by all means. So, in my opinion, those suicide bomber took wrong concept, did their suicide as 'martyr' (which is I think non-sense) and do not fight to defend their people (killed innocent lives)

In this context what we have to sacrifice (in the past) is to infiltrate enemy's base and kill their commander/leader. Of course, the guard will noticed the ruckus, surround the culprit so he don't have any way to escape. The culprit's intention is to kill the commander and he knew he will be discovered and thus will be killed as a Martyr. The loss of enemy's commander will cause huge turn in upcoming war. That's why his sacrifice being praised to bring the victory.

In battlefield (in the past), sacrifice is just simple. Spur your horse to the center of enemy and kill as many enemy as you can, it will break the formation in enemy's forces that, of course, will bring advantage to our forces to advance.
Or, simply being a spy in enemy's forces to caused ruckus or kill the commander in battlefield to decrease the moral of enemy's forces. We know, the one who did it (who became a spy to killed the commander will be killed immediately as he is in the middle of enemy) would be said as a Martyr who sacrificed himself.

That's the true definition of Martyr, sadly the people took it wrongly because of the urge to attack their enemy and defend thier people that lead to cause more harm from both sides, civilian (In Gaza).



Well, apparently these guys don’t think so. Who’s to say you’re right and they’re wrong?
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Posted 8/27/09

digs wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Well how can you seperate the two? Me others believe suicide bombing is the result of Israels treatment while some people believe it is because they are Jews.


Suicide bombing isn't limited to Israel and Palestine. The majority of them happen in Iraq and Pakistan between Sunni and Shia Islam and between the Taliban and civilians. This thread is about the mind of suicide bombers an why they do the act.


WEll pretty much if you see most of the countries that are at war and/or is occupied you will see suicide bombing. The fact that you think that continuing the same policies will nuetralize it is insane to me (not calling you insane). I gotta go work out anyways Digs I dont know if you got my PM but I really want to know where you get the bulk of your info regarding this issue if you can PM me that would be awesome.
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Posted 8/27/09

drizza wrote:


digs wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Well how can you seperate the two? Me others believe suicide bombing is the result of Israels treatment while some people believe it is because they are Jews.


Suicide bombing isn't limited to Israel and Palestine. The majority of them happen in Iraq and Pakistan between Sunni and Shia Islam and between the Taliban and civilians. This thread is about the mind of suicide bombers an why they do the act.


WEll pretty much if you see most of the countries that are at war and/or is occupied you will see suicide bombing. The fact that you think that continuing the same policies will nuetralize it is insane to me (not calling you insane). I gotta go work out anyways Digs I dont know if you got my PM but I really want to know where you get the bulk of your info regarding this issue if you can PM me that would be awesome.


I didn't get a PM, try resending it. If I don't get it I'll PM you. If you want my MSN is [email protected] (I am usually on). Have a good Ramadan!
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Posted 8/27/09
AHah thanks man I havent fasted yet though nor picked up the Quran. (Yea I know Jeez I need to do better) I will add you to my msn.
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Posted 8/27/09


SeraphAlford wrote:

It’s trust they need! My problem is that the Palestinians elected Hamas, and so long as Hamas has control of Gaza there will be no trust. Since 2001 there has not been a single break without missile fire into Israel. It’s a war that never ends. And Israelis so frightened of being chastised by the UN and international community that it isn’t protecting its citizens. So, the citizens get angry. And when you get a rush of angry citizens in a democratic government bombs are dropped.


Palestinian people trust Hamas, is there something wrong for a society to elect people on their own? They don't like Fatah, because, as everyone said they are just a puppet by US and Palestinian would doubt Fatah and of course will brings many disadvantage in Gaza.
And remember not every militant in Palestine, Gaza are Hamas. There also exist the group of AL-Qaeda inspired group exist in Gaza and what they did is the total war against Israel, not peace.

That's why, Hamas exterminate them. Because they bring harm to both civilian, Palestine and Israel
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/3924322-leader-of-gaza-extremist-group-killed-hamas
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KH20Ak03.html

Judai Ansar, the name of group, should be the one who blamed and many of individual group who not under Hamas and just blindly follow of what Al-Qaeda did


SeraphAlford wrote:

You hear about the 700,000 Palestinians displaces and how the Jews took Israel. Yet with the exception of the anti-defamation league and a few independent scholars you never, ever hear about how the Arabs ceased enough land from the Jews to fit FOUR Israel’s into it. Even if Israel still had the land it captures in 1967 that STILL doesn’t match up to the amount of land the Arab/Muslims stole from them. Hell, how many people know that 825,000 Jews were displaced in 1948? Jews who actually owned the territory they were losing, unlike the Palestinians. Jews who’d spent thousands of years in these communities as compared to the Palestinians-most of which had only been in Palestine for about a hundred years at the time of the incident. They hated the Jewish immigrants but the fact is that their parents and grandparents were immigrants to Turkish territory.


Yes, we hear about what happened in 1948. Do you know what they caused to Palestinian because of them.
http://www.ccun.org/News/2007/September/15%20n/10%20million%20Palestinians,%207%20millions%20of%20them%20%20refugees,%20450,000%20internally%20displaced,%20a%20new%20Badil%20report.htm
Bethlehem, occupied Palestine – Twenty-five years since the massacre of Palestinian refugees committed by Lebanese Phalange militias with the complicity of Israel's army controlling the area in the camps of Sabra and Shatila, Palestinian refugees remain without protection and the search for rights-based solutions to their plight. 10 million Palestinians, 7 millions of them refugees, 450,000 internally displaced

could they use their displaced as a reason to displace another people's land? I know they can't do that but they took that as excuse to displaced many innocent lives?
http://wwww.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/RMOI-6CZ3WS?OpenDocument

and
http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/112/the-forgotten-jewish-refugees-from-arab-states
Stated : The response from the world community to the Jewish refugee problem in the Arab world was mixed. There was no doubt that these Jews qualified under the 1951 Convention of the United Nations. According to the convention, a refugee is someone "persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality," and who is unable "to avail himself of the protection of that country." By 1957, the U.N. officially determined that Arab Jews qualified.

I know maybe you don't want to believe or use UN as reference in this matter like in your previous topic about UN biased against Israel, but this is the voice of the world. What Israel did in Gaza is terrible and clearly violates human's right. And so extremist and Zionist.
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Posted 8/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

Yeah, I know. Some of them are truth as I already read them. But who knows some of them are propaganda, like a this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNM5pfSdsjA

Yes, they are truth. But why he only posted the links and photos of how bad Israel people. Why not also post link of how bad Palestine condition of their shortage of water and live in miserable lives under Israel forces around? Both side has been damaged, we know. Thus, there's no reasons post unrelated source just to raise tensions. We are here to solve the solution, right? Correct me, if you guys not trying to talk about the solution, but just to defend your side and being stubborn.


How many links have you posted now? Should I go back and count? Every single one has been unfavorable towards Israel. And in fact in every thread I’ve ever seen you post in it’s been unfavorable towards Israel. I didn’t post videos of the Palestinians suffering for the same reason you’re not posting of the Israeli’s suffering. Because somebody else has already done it. And I have another reason. It’s irrelevant. My point in my Sderot post wasn’t to attack the Palestinians. Read the whole conversation and you’ll see it wasn’t even about Palestine v. Israel. It was about what produces terrorists. Look, you're just a little kid. So I don't think it would be fair to jump down your throat over this. But you need to actually see what i was arguing for before you start making claims.
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Posted 8/27/09

ShroomInferno wrote:

Edit: considering that the anti-Israel forum folks in this forum section largely outnumber the moderate and pro-israel ones I might eventually become active again in these kind of topics to even it out a little...though Uni is starting soon so I'm not sure...if I'll have the time, or even the motivation for it. D: It's people like you who've made me stop partaking in any threads related to Islam/Palestine/Israel topics, because no matter how many times you reiterate facts, they keep on ignoring it and keep on blithering in their bubble of ignorance and prejudice.


I don't think it's outnumbered. And I don't think it's necessary to mention it just to support your sides.

I do not ignoring the facts or being ignorant about them. I know, many Israeli has been harmed by rockets and Palestinian who has been suffered by Israel soldier and suicide bomber. The both links are true, thus why bringing that? In the topic who even not relate to ISrael and Palestine.

I'm sorry if I quite harsh in my words, but what I'm try to seek is the truth, solution about this prejudice about martyr and suicide bomber. I think all of us should stop relate this to Israel and Palestine, not being ignorant and please write smart post.
Sorry again of the harsh words, I did not intend to be rude.
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Posted 8/27/09

digs wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Well how can you seperate the two? Me others believe suicide bombing is the result of Israels treatment while some people believe it is because they are Jews.


Suicide bombing isn't limited to Israel and Palestine. The majority of them happen in Iraq and Pakistan between Sunni and Shia Islam and between the Taliban and civilians. This thread is about the mind of suicide bombers an why they do the act.

@Ryutai- We are trying to find a solution, but the truth is that the Palestinians have elected Hamas... a group that's solution is genocide and the creation of an Islamic only state where Israel is. I know what Hamas says is against the Koran, in fact the Koran supports Israel's existence. We aren't defending Israel. We have said how it's wrong for them to occupy the West Bank etc. However, the Palestinians poverty isn't Israel's fault. We don't view Israel as evil or as the problem.


Hamas is chosen by its people through election in 2006. Fatah lost, why they can't elect their own leader to be an authority for Palestinian people? There's no democracy in Palestine's election .

Yes, the Qur'an support Jews and all human beings on the world as He created them to be a part of the world. But Qur'an does not mention anything about Zionist or either support them. What Zionist / Israel (Remember, not all Israeli are Zionist) is terribly wrong. You could see their operation using 11 years old girl as human's shield on youtube.

Palestine's shortage of water and other life-support are caused by invasion of Israel in December 2008 if the date not wrong. Israel attacked Palestine just after Idul Fitri (Muslim's celebration). That's insult and humiliation




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Posted 8/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

As the view in our belief, suicide bomber had not been approved by from what Prophet was teach to his follower. After all, on that era, there was no technology to do such thing ~lol.

Indeed, in the teaching, we had been taught to defend ourselves in war, struggle to fight against our enemy and sacrifice yourself to gain victory for your army. However, in combat we did not allowed to destroy anything, either is building or Mother Earth (plant, ground... etc) as stated in Qur'an. It's clear that suicide bomber caused many of innocent lives lost and damaged the building as well.
Because of this, any suicide bomber is not allowed. In addition, we've been forbid to kill ourselves (suicide) by all means. So, in my opinion, those suicide bomber took wrong concept, did their suicide as 'martyr' (which is I think non-sense) and do not fight to defend their people (killed innocent lives)

In this context what we have to sacrifice (in the past) is to infiltrate enemy's base and kill their commander/leader. Of course, the guard will noticed the ruckus, surround the culprit so he don't have any way to escape. The culprit's intention is to kill the commander and he knew he will be discovered and thus will be killed as a Martyr. The loss of enemy's commander will cause huge turn in upcoming war. That's why his sacrifice being praised to bring the victory.

In battlefield (in the past), sacrifice is just simple. Spur your horse to the center of enemy and kill as many enemy as you can, it will break the formation in enemy's forces that, of course, will bring advantage to our forces to advance.
Or, simply being a spy in enemy's forces to caused ruckus or kill the commander in battlefield to decrease the moral of enemy's forces. We know, the one who did it (who became a spy to killed the commander will be killed immediately as he is in the middle of enemy) would be said as a Martyr who sacrificed himself.

That's the true definition of Martyr, sadly the people took it wrongly because of the urge to attack their enemy and defend thier people that lead to cause more harm from both sides, civilian (In Gaza).



Well, apparently these guys don’t think so. Who’s to say you’re right and they’re wrong?


It's based on Qur'an. I think they did it just because of depression and pressure from either enemy or from their own people as you've mentioned. thus, their way of belief are wrong

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Posted 8/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


digs wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Well how can you seperate the two? Me others believe suicide bombing is the result of Israels treatment while some people believe it is because they are Jews.


Suicide bombing isn't limited to Israel and Palestine. The majority of them happen in Iraq and Pakistan between Sunni and Shia Islam and between the Taliban and civilians. This thread is about the mind of suicide bombers an why they do the act.

@Ryutai- We are trying to find a solution, but the truth is that the Palestinians have elected Hamas... a group that's solution is genocide and the creation of an Islamic only state where Israel is. I know what Hamas says is against the Koran, in fact the Koran supports Israel's existence. We aren't defending Israel. We have said how it's wrong for them to occupy the West Bank etc. However, the Palestinians poverty isn't Israel's fault. We don't view Israel as evil or as the problem.


Hamas is chosen by its people through election in 2006. Fatah lost, why they can't elect their own leader to be an authority for Palestinian people? There's no democracy in Palestine's election .

Yes, the Qur'an support Jews and all human beings on the world as He created them to be a part of the world. But Qur'an does not mention anything about Zionist or either support them. What Zionist / Israel (Remember, not all Israeli are Zionist) is terribly wrong. You could see their operation using 11 years old girl as human's shield on youtube.

Palestine's shortage of water and other life-support are caused by invasion of Israel in December 2008 if the date not wrong. Israel attacked Palestine just after Idul Fitri (Muslim's celebration). That's insult and humiliation






Actually the Koran supports Zionism in the sense where Jews believe it is their right to own the land because of God's covenant. It says so here in the Koran. [2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. [2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations. The covenant being talked about is God's covenant through Abraham that Israel would be a nation. The Koran recognizes the Jewish covenant and acknowledges that God (or Allah) gave them the land as a promise.

Palestinians receive free aid and healthcare from Israel. The two main supporters of Palestinian aid are the US and Israel anyway. Israel attacked Gaza because they broke a ceasefire and were putting innocents in danger. Hamas fires most of their rockets into homes and schools to deliberately destroy Israel.
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Posted 8/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:
It's based on Qur'an. I think they did it just because of depression and pressure from either enemy or from their own people as you've mentioned. thus, their way of belief are wrong



Well, that’s your perspective. But they think that you’re manipulating the Qur’an in order to interpret it in a way that favors your modernistic view and makes it more politically correct than it really is.
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Posted 8/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

Yeah, I know. Some of them are truth as I already read them. But who knows some of them are propaganda, like a this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNM5pfSdsjA

Yes, they are truth. But why he only posted the links and photos of how bad Israel people. Why not also post link of how bad Palestine condition of their shortage of water and live in miserable lives under Israel forces around? Both side has been damaged, we know. Thus, there's no reasons post unrelated source just to raise tensions. We are here to solve the solution, right? Correct me, if you guys not trying to talk about the solution, but just to defend your side and being stubborn.


How many links have you posted now? Should I go back and count? Every single one has been unfavorable towards Israel. And in fact in every thread I’ve ever seen you post in it’s been unfavorable towards Israel. I didn’t post videos of the Palestinians suffering for the same reason you’re not posting of the Israeli’s suffering. Because somebody else has already done it. And I have another reason. It’s irrelevant. My point in my Sderot post wasn’t to attack the Palestinians. Read the whole conversation and you’ll see it wasn’t even about Palestine v. Israel. It was about what produces terrorists.


Please don't getting worked up because of the truth, we're trying to understand how the mind of Martyr work, right?. I read your source and they are trustful too, what I wonder is why you suddenly brought exaggerated it by copied source from wikipedia and upload the wounded civilian? I didn't even post anything that shows Palestinians suffering of their images or something about their miserable condition, it's clear you did not see/watch my links.

I also already posted from religious belief if that you try to figure out on what reasons they do suicide bomber.

SeraphAlford wrote:

Look, you're just a little kid. So I don't think it would be fair to jump down your throat over this. But you need to actually see what i was arguing for before you start making claims.


Is that how you distinguish people by looking at their age? if so then there's no point I talked to so-called intelligent person. Age, belief, races, gender doesn't matter when it comes to knowledge. Many history of humankind has proven that. Young people are hope for not getting a bias and prejudice. Their opinion based on true fact, Obama proven that in higher politics stage. You know the most.




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Posted 8/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:



Please don't getting worked up because of the truth, we're trying to understand how the mind of Martyr work, right?. I read your source and they are trustful too, what I wonder is why you suddenly brought exaggerated it by copied source from wikipedia and upload the wounded civilian? I didn't even post anything that shows Palestinians suffering of their images or something about their miserable condition, it's clear you did not see/watch my links.


I’m not getting worked up. As it stands, this thread was about the mind of a martyr until you came in with your ad hominen remarks and started a flaming war. I’d appreciate it if you left the topic or simply got ON topic. Much obliged.
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