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The Evil in Human Hearts
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Posted 9/5/09

DomFortress wrote:


dontknowz wrote:Well at first I was scratching my head over why you suddenly brought up that other things didn't exist.
You seem to have mistaken me, my example ment that any certain action cannot be called evil. Everyone has their own type of evil, like you said, it's very subjective. However labeling certain actions such as "murder" can't be called truly evil, since it varies for many people.
My arguement was only that evil doesn't truly exist, it's only here because we created it. By we, I mean everything alive, including animals.
My proof is that there's no single something in the world that everything hates and would call evil.

Murder? Torture? Rape? Even if the majority agrees it's evil, there will and has always been one person/thing to enjoy these things or have a reason to 'justify' their actions.

Edit: Just noticed, we're arguing about evil and i'm backing up that crimes like these can't be called truly evil.
Proving that you're right, it is very subjective. Opinions change with people, and nothing can be called truly evil.
Let's look at the one indisputable, unanimous, and fundamental law of nature that governs every known animal species on earth, humans included; survival of the fittest.

This universal law can be seen throughout the human history of wars, even down to the smallest dispute. Because there are those interpreted that "survival of the fittest" as "might is right", when they judged nations and states based on economic, military, and political powers. Thus they justified their actions by them being the most powerful.

Now I'm going to introduce yet another indisputable, unanimous, and fundamental law, this one however only applies to humans; absolute power corrupts absolutely. And true enough, throughout human history of economy, militia, and politics, we can see corruptions in all those fields. And these corruptions are often the ones that caused us unnecessary wars and conflicts, when we ended up paying with the lives and livelihoods of those who are innocent.

Therefore what's not to say that the humans' collective weakness of corrupting ourselves with our will to overpower by any means necessary, is the indisputable, unanimous, and fundamental evil that's not even necessary? When you tried to justify the act of killing the life of one, in order to save the lives of many.


That 'weakness' of corruption is caused by peoples desires to get what they want.
In short "Greed". Who doesn't wish to get what they want? What they do is go after what they desire, and set a goal. It hurts people in the process however when taken as far as you say. But I can't see evil in doing better for yourself, it's even instinct for some.
Also do note, full blown wars cannot be between two single men alone. In war, there's usually many, on different sides. No matter what their reason is, no matter how little the soldiers goals if at all, match up to the one behind everything, they still fight for it. The ones who are 'innocent' are not innocent the moment they take up arms.
The victims however, who live quietly and are affected and killed by wars are saddening. However it doesn't stop the war.
People continue anyway, for their own reasons. As long as at least one person exists that would put his own goals before human lives, and act on them, I can't see it as being truly evil. Especially if he has a whole army to back up any one of his claims.

You may say or are saying "The evil one is the one behind it, being corrupted by his own greed, not just his actions".
In that case, following my logic, where I believe 'True' Evil being only when everything agrees one thing is evil, it still falls short.
Personally, I don't believe acting how you want is evil. I respect people who aim for their goals, with sacrifice more than those who don't act at all. I'm also positive i'm not the only one thinks this way.
Hitler, though what I think he did personally was wrong, he had a lot of back-up. Not everyone thought he's evil, many even praised him.

I still don't get what your point is. You're arguing there is an absolute evil, when clearly there is not.
Like whats been said, evil is subjective. You create laws over what you believe to be evil, you punish because of it, gather millions who agree.
But fact is, there will always be someone or something who wont have the same views as you. Whether it be torture, corruption, or whatever.
Unless you can prove everything in the entire world agrees something is evil, both past, present and future. Absolute evil cannot exist.
The only evil that can exist, is the subjective evil created by our opinions and minds.

Another thing, wars and corruption themselves prove true evil does not exist.
If everyone had a common hatred, a common evil, in which we all agree. We'd also have a common goal, linking every human in the world together. In short, we'd co-operate more, rather than fighting against one another.
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Posted 9/5/09

dontknowz
Well at first I was scratching my head over why you suddenly brought up that other things didn't exist.
You seem to have mistaken me, my example ment that any certain action cannot be called evil. Everyone has their own type of evil, like you said, it's very subjective. However labeling certain actions such as "murder" can't be called truly evil, since it varies for many people.
My arguement was only that evil doesn't truly exist, it's only here because we created it. By we, I mean everything alive, including animals.
My proof is that there's no single something in the world that everything hates and would call evil.
Murder? Torture? Rape? Even if the majority agrees it's evil, there will and has always been one person/thing to enjoy these things or have a reason to 'justify' their actions.


You seem to be mixing up non-existence with subjectivity. Just because everyone sees something in different ways doesn't mean that it does not exist. By that reasoning, existence doesn't exist because we apparently have different ideas of what existence is. Rather than simply saying "Evil doesn't exist," it would make more sense to say "There is nothing that is universally/objectively evil," or "Evil cannot be absolutely defined."



My arguement was only that evil doesn't truly exist, it's only here because we created it.


So anything that mankind has created doesn't "truly" exist?
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Posted 9/5/09 , edited 9/5/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


dontknowz
Well at first I was scratching my head over why you suddenly brought up that other things didn't exist.
You seem to have mistaken me, my example ment that any certain action cannot be called evil. Everyone has their own type of evil, like you said, it's very subjective. However labeling certain actions such as "murder" can't be called truly evil, since it varies for many people.
My arguement was only that evil doesn't truly exist, it's only here because we created it. By we, I mean everything alive, including animals.
My proof is that there's no single something in the world that everything hates and would call evil.
Murder? Torture? Rape? Even if the majority agrees it's evil, there will and has always been one person/thing to enjoy these things or have a reason to 'justify' their actions.


You seem to be mixing up non-existence with subjectivity. Just because everyone sees something in different ways doesn't mean that it does not exist. By that reasoning, existence doesn't exist because we apparently have different ideas of what existence is. Rather than simply saying "Evil doesn't exist," it would make more sense to say "There is nothing that is universally/objectively evil," or "Evil cannot be absolutely defined."


My arguement was only that evil doesn't truly exist, it's only here because we created it.


So anything that mankind has created doesn't "truly" exist?


I'll just do an example, maybe it will clear things up about what i'm saying.

Start with a blank piece of paper. Draw a person, attach a little bubble saying Evil to that person. That's the type of evil that exists but differs from person to person. In short, their sense of right and wrong.

Now, what i'm saying is, that evil there exists. We have opinions, thoughts, and created it through those thoughts. However, I don't believe anything can ever truly be evil. Again, look at the paper, it's completely blank with the exception of that person and his thoughts.
Without those thoughts, evil would never have existed. I'm trying to explain this best I can.

We all start with blank pages, and nothing is truly evil. The only evil that exists, is the things we label as bad. To us, this is evil, however I don't feel it or anything else can ever be truly evil. Does that make more sense?
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Posted 9/5/09
All that constitutes evil is constructed by the moral system, and the moral system is built around the goal of the system. So evil is just relative to the goal.
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Posted 9/5/09

GrandX wrote:


JJT2 wrote:



the guy with the gun was a police chief and the man he killed had just killed the police chief's son, so this kill is justified.peace over war


There is no justification on taking the life of another.


perhaps, but on the battle field, u cant live by that philosophy. peace over war
Posted 9/5/09

dontknowz wrote:That 'weakness' of corruption is caused by peoples desires to get what they want.
In short "Greed".
Who doesn't wish to get what they want? What they do is go after what they desire, and set a goal. It hurts people in the process however when taken as far as you say. But I can't see evil in doing better for yourself, it's even instinct for some.
Also do note, full blown wars cannot be between two single men alone. In war, there's usually many, on different sides. No matter what their reason is, no matter how little the soldiers goals if at all, match up to the one behind everything, they still fight for it. The ones who are 'innocent' are not innocent the moment they take up arms.
The victims however, who live quietly and are affected and killed by wars are saddening. However it doesn't stop the war.
People continue anyway, for their own reasons. As long as at least one person exists that would put his own goals before human lives, and act on them, I can't see it as being truly evil. Especially if he has a whole army to back up any one of his claims.

You may say or are saying "The evil one is the one behind it, being corrupted by his own greed, not just his actions".
In that case, following my logic, where I believe 'True' Evil being only when everything agrees one thing is evil, it still falls short.
Personally, I don't believe acting how you want is evil. I respect people who aim for their goals, with sacrifice more than those who don't act at all. I'm also positive i'm not the only one thinks this way.
Hitler, though what I think he did personally was wrong, he had a lot of back-up. Not everyone thought he's evil, many even praised him.

I still don't get what your point is. You're arguing there is an absolute evil, when clearly there is not.
Like whats been said, evil is subjective. You create laws over what you believe to be evil, you punish because of it, gather millions who agree.
But fact is, there will always be someone or something who wont have the same views as you. Whether it be torture, corruption, or whatever.
Unless you can prove everything in the entire world agrees something is evil, both past, present and future. Absolute evil cannot exist.
The only evil that can exist, is the subjective evil created by our opinions and minds.

Another thing, wars and corruption themselves prove true evil does not exist.
If everyone had a common hatred, a common evil, in which we all agree. We'd also have a common goal, linking every human in the world together. In short, we'd co-operate more, rather than fighting against one another.
I don't think self-empowerment is evil at all. In fact, I think the power that we gained through self-sacrifice is the mark of us being vigilant. And being vigilant is good, when it means "alertly watchful especially to avoid danger."

However, just like you've said, people's greed will always end up someones getting hurt. But what happens if those who are greedy were also selfish, when they don't want to sacrifice themselves in order to gain what they want, so they ended up sacrificing others instead?

Therefore, would you agree that those who are both greedy and selfish, that they only want all power directed only to themselves, without them giving back by being responsible are truly evil? When "absolute power corrupts absolutely," while "with great power, comes great responsibility." I think that those who don't put themselves at risk to get what they want, while they would risk other people's lives and livelihoods in order to benefit only themselves, are truly evil and rotten to the core.
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Posted 9/6/09

JJT2 wrote:


GrandX wrote:


JJT2 wrote:



the guy with the gun was a police chief and the man he killed had just killed the police chief's son, so this kill is justified.peace over war


There is no justification on taking the life of another.


perhaps, but on the battle field, u cant live by that philosophy. peace over war


I suppose so, but i would never take someones life even though they killed somebody i care about. Killing them wont bring that person back.
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Posted 9/6/09

cdplayer6 wrote:

It has been portrayed through several crappy shows, movies (notably, Tom Hank's Cast Away), and novels like "The Lord of the Flies" that humans all carry an evil side to themselves that can take over and become a more obvious asset when "civilization" or laws are not present. Do you believe this is possible or can we control our "inner beast"?

I don't believe in this "uncivilized" crap because after being in a civilized state since birth, i am tamed enough to hold my pride and morals intact. Its the same thing for 40 year olds and 80 year olds. I don't believe that years of experience will just "vanish" so easily.


Well.... when you get stuck on an island with hardly no means nor skills for surviving such conditions videotape your experience and show me a civilized person at the end. Do you really think you will be on your italian leather sofa with tea saucer in left and tea cup in right with your pinky sticking out in a civilized manner when your survival is at stake and everything around you.... including humans... think you are food?

I think not.

What will happen initially is that you will freak. And, if you have company they will freak. Then you are gonna start panicking trying to figure out how to get out of the situation as soon as possible. Thereafter, the shear realization of the situation will dawn on you and fear will sink in leaving you to think irrationally and start hyperventilating and so on and so forth....
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Posted 9/6/09 , edited 9/6/09

GrandX wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


GrandX wrote:


JJT2 wrote:



the guy with the gun was a police chief and the man he killed had just killed the police chief's son, so this kill is justified.peace over war


There is no justification on taking the life of another.


perhaps, but on the battle field, u cant live by that philosophy. peace over war


I suppose so, but i would never take someones life even though they killed somebody i care about. Killing them wont bring that person back.


If someone ever killed a member of my family....

I know exactly how I would deal with that person.....

For them the sooner it is over with the better.
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Posted 9/6/09

DomFortress wrote:
I don't think self-empowerment is evil at all. In fact, I think the power that we gained through self-sacrifice is the mark of us being vigilant. And being vigilant is good, when it means "alertly watchful especially to avoid danger."

However, just like you've said, people's greed will always end up someones getting hurt. But what happens if those who are greedy were also selfish, when they don't want to sacrifice themselves in order to gain what they want, so they ended up sacrificing others instead?

Therefore, would you agree that those who are both greedy and selfish, that they only want all power directed only to themselves, without them giving back by being responsible are truly evil? When "absolute power corrupts absolutely," while "with great power, comes great responsibility." I think that those who don't put themselves at risk to get what they want, while they would risk other people's lives and livelihoods in order to benefit only themselves, are truly evil and rotten to the core.


I could just be being stubborn here but however bad an action is, as long as someone can view something in it in a positive way, as long as someone or something can think of some type of good, no matter how twisted it may be, I can't view it as true evil.
I also don't believe any action or person can be purely bad. No matter how horrible something is, there will always be a bright side in some form, again, even if it is twisted. Example: killing a million people. Brightside? Population is lowered. Sure it's a horrible thought, but i'm sure there would be benefits from such a thing as well.

Also, I agree with the bolded, I find those types simply disgusting. Ones who expect others to their dirty work for them, and don't lift a finger for themselves is just.. Anyway, continuing on. A brightside still exists even there, when that does happen. Whether it's experience gained, knowledge learned, lesson learned, motivational thoughts gained or something else, there's always a brightside gained from every action, and as such there will always be a person who will view it in a different light rather than just focusing on the lives lost.
So again, I believe evil exists in a way, but nothing can ever be truly evil.
Posted 9/7/09
It is there. And it won't be leaving anytime soon.
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Posted 9/7/09

latigra22787 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:

It has been portrayed through several crappy shows, movies (notably, Tom Hank's Cast Away), and novels like "The Lord of the Flies" that humans all carry an evil side to themselves that can take over and become a more obvious asset when "civilization" or laws are not present. Do you believe this is possible or can we control our "inner beast"?

I don't believe in this "uncivilized" crap because after being in a civilized state since birth, i am tamed enough to hold my pride and morals intact. Its the same thing for 40 year olds and 80 year olds. I don't believe that years of experience will just "vanish" so easily.


Well.... when you get stuck on an island with hardly no means nor skills for surviving such conditions videotape your experience and show me a civilized person at the end. Do you really think you will be on your italian leather sofa with tea saucer in left and tea cup in right with your pinky sticking out in a civilized manner when your survival is at stake and everything around you.... including humans... think you are food?

I think not.

What will happen initially is that you will freak. And, if you have company they will freak. Then you are gonna start panicking trying to figure out how to get out of the situation as soon as possible. Thereafter, the shear realization of the situation will dawn on you and fear will sink in leaving you to think irrationally and start hyperventilating and so on and so forth....



Lol. Thats only 1 possibility. If you're able to adapt to conditions in the world, you'll be fine. If you have a wella very calm and patient personality like monks, you can survive.
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Posted 9/8/09

cdplayer6 wrote:


latigra22787 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:

It has been portrayed through several crappy shows, movies (notably, Tom Hank's Cast Away), and novels like "The Lord of the Flies" that humans all carry an evil side to themselves that can take over and become a more obvious asset when "civilization" or laws are not present. Do you believe this is possible or can we control our "inner beast"?

I don't believe in this "uncivilized" crap because after being in a civilized state since birth, i am tamed enough to hold my pride and morals intact. Its the same thing for 40 year olds and 80 year olds. I don't believe that years of experience will just "vanish" so easily.


Well.... when you get stuck on an island with hardly no means nor skills for surviving such conditions videotape your experience and show me a civilized person at the end. Do you really think you will be on your italian leather sofa with tea saucer in left and tea cup in right with your pinky sticking out in a civilized manner when your survival is at stake and everything around you.... including humans... think you are food?

I think not.

What will happen initially is that you will freak. And, if you have company they will freak. Then you are gonna start panicking trying to figure out how to get out of the situation as soon as possible. Thereafter, the shear realization of the situation will dawn on you and fear will sink in leaving you to think irrationally and start hyperventilating and so on and so forth....



Lol. Thats only 1 possibility. If you're able to adapt to conditions in the world, you'll be fine. If you have a wella very calm and patient personality like monks, you can survive.


That may be true. But how many people act like monks in your soceity? How many of your peers are calm and patient beyond the normal limit? How do your parents act? your girlfriend? boyfriend? wife?

How certain can you be that all of your peers would act like highly trained monks in tough situations? you may very well be the only guy acting "civilized" (what ever that means), in the sitution. You may have to adapt to your peers acting like crazed fools, which may mean killing a few out of self defense."No human is ever a one man show"- Yu Yu Hakusho (Genkai). peace over war
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Posted 9/8/09

JJT2 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:


latigra22787 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:

It has been portrayed through several crappy shows, movies (notably, Tom Hank's Cast Away), and novels like "The Lord of the Flies" that humans all carry an evil side to themselves that can take over and become a more obvious asset when "civilization" or laws are not present. Do you believe this is possible or can we control our "inner beast"?

I don't believe in this "uncivilized" crap because after being in a civilized state since birth, i am tamed enough to hold my pride and morals intact. Its the same thing for 40 year olds and 80 year olds. I don't believe that years of experience will just "vanish" so easily.


Well.... when you get stuck on an island with hardly no means nor skills for surviving such conditions videotape your experience and show me a civilized person at the end. Do you really think you will be on your italian leather sofa with tea saucer in left and tea cup in right with your pinky sticking out in a civilized manner when your survival is at stake and everything around you.... including humans... think you are food?

I think not.

What will happen initially is that you will freak. And, if you have company they will freak. Then you are gonna start panicking trying to figure out how to get out of the situation as soon as possible. Thereafter, the shear realization of the situation will dawn on you and fear will sink in leaving you to think irrationally and start hyperventilating and so on and so forth....



Lol. Thats only 1 possibility. If you're able to adapt to conditions in the world, you'll be fine. If you have a wella very calm and patient personality like monks, you can survive.


That may be true. But how many people act like monks in your soceity? How many of your peers are calm and patient beyond the normal limit? How do your parents act? your girlfriend? boyfriend? wife?

How certain can you be that all of your peers would act like highly trained monks in tough situations? you may very well be the only guy acting "civilized" (what ever that means), in the sitution. You may have to adapt to your peers acting like crazed fools, which may mean killing a few out of self defense."No human is ever a one man show"- Yu Yu Hakusho (Genkai). peace over war


Well, maybe its up to monks and very controlled people to discover what can protect ourselves from turning like this.
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Posted 9/8/09

cdplayer6 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:


latigra22787 wrote:


cdplayer6 wrote:

It has been portrayed through several crappy shows, movies (notably, Tom Hank's Cast Away), and novels like "The Lord of the Flies" that humans all carry an evil side to themselves that can take over and become a more obvious asset when "civilization" or laws are not present. Do you believe this is possible or can we control our "inner beast"?

I don't believe in this "uncivilized" crap because after being in a civilized state since birth, i am tamed enough to hold my pride and morals intact. Its the same thing for 40 year olds and 80 year olds. I don't believe that years of experience will just "vanish" so easily.


Well.... when you get stuck on an island with hardly no means nor skills for surviving such conditions videotape your experience and show me a civilized person at the end. Do you really think you will be on your italian leather sofa with tea saucer in left and tea cup in right with your pinky sticking out in a civilized manner when your survival is at stake and everything around you.... including humans... think you are food?

I think not.

What will happen initially is that you will freak. And, if you have company they will freak. Then you are gonna start panicking trying to figure out how to get out of the situation as soon as possible. Thereafter, the shear realization of the situation will dawn on you and fear will sink in leaving you to think irrationally and start hyperventilating and so on and so forth....



Lol. Thats only 1 possibility. If you're able to adapt to conditions in the world, you'll be fine. If you have a wella very calm and patient personality like monks, you can survive.


That may be true. But how many people act like monks in your soceity? How many of your peers are calm and patient beyond the normal limit? How do your parents act? your girlfriend? boyfriend? wife?

How certain can you be that all of your peers would act like highly trained monks in tough situations? you may very well be the only guy acting "civilized" (what ever that means), in the sitution. You may have to adapt to your peers acting like crazed fools, which may mean killing a few out of self defense."No human is ever a one man show"- Yu Yu Hakusho (Genkai). peace over war


Well, maybe its up to monks and very controlled people to discover what can protect ourselves from turning like this.


there is no protection, even highly trained warriors can have mental break downs. It's human nature. We dont "turn" to anything. Its who we truly are under neath all of the brainwashing of society. peace over war
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