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You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
Posted 1/5/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:



Now, the usual 'as far as I'm concerned', 'that's what you think', nonsensical rubbish. I don't think it is a moot point. Any reasonable being in the right mind would agree that such behaviour has no place in reasoned discussion. Premises are presented, they are proven wrong, counter-arguments are then, in turn, proven wrong and so on and so forth. An opinion that does not present some sort of claim or counter-claim will be vacuous, irrelevant and undesirable. It will fall to be disregarded as it adds nothing to the discussion or debate at hand and that is it.

I would just like to add the popular 'I disagree with you, but I respect your opinion.' line.
See, I cannot seem to grasp what it actually means. The first part is evident, but the second? 'I think your views are fatally misconcieved, but I respect them.' Does this make sense?

What you said is an elaborated explanation of what I demonstrated here, and I thank you for getting all that out in one very heartfelt message.

Now the last part of your post is what I think has happened when individuals lost their accountability, because they were abusing their freedom of expression. And they did it simply by them pretending to have an illusion of dignity via political correctness, while all they managed to say were media soundbites without an ounce of originality. And it's gotten so easy for them to do so because they didn't demand themselves to take their time and reflect upon what they've overheard, while they simply just want to get their words out and be done with it.
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Posted 1/5/10 , edited 1/5/10

DomFortress wrote:


Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

What you need is the "General" forum. When you only want to say whatever that you seem to agree with zero accountability, and not to debate for what you think is right because it matters to you.

And if you think I was wrong, then you're welcome to see just how far your intelligent can go with that attitude of yours.


I never said anything like "you only want to say whatever that you seem to agree with zero accountability, and not to debate for what you think is right because it matters to you." I only stated questions. I only voiced whatever comes to mind with the topic. What is more important, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? If it's OK to have my own opinion whether it's right or wrong then it's what C.R. forums really about, a friendly discussion. If not, then it's a scientific search for knowledge, that everything should be strictly "correct", then there are more credible venues than this forum with more credible users. If someone's views are wrong to you, or maybe not really factual, then say it only as a guide, but most of the time it just boils down into a flame war just because not everyone is as mature. No one here has any control to say when enough is enough when it comes to bashing each other's ideas.

I really don't know the value in winning in every forum/thread... maybe increased e-peens?

EDIT

Btw I found this in the Extended Discussion Guidelines


And lastly, since this section will most likely include some topics that are sensitive to some people, always respect one another. You don't have to agree, or even like each other, but do NOT ruin some else's thread/discussion with your temper.
Posted 1/5/10
ive been reviewing some of the posts, no need to flame.
Keep it clean, its not that hard.
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Posted 1/5/10

Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

I think its better to learn and evolve your opinion wen new information and facts present it self. I also think of the ed as a place to learn more about things, at the same time giving others a chance to learn the knowledge that you might have. TO stick with a baseless ideal seems a little illogical and seems more like something for the General forum.

ED is more for debating and learning more about the topics. But that is just my opinion based on my observations and understanding of the ED.
Posted 1/5/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

I think its better to learn and evolve your opinion wen new information and facts present it self. I also think of the ed as a place to learn more about things, at the same time giving others a chance to learn the knowledge that you might have. TO stick with a baseless ideal seems a little illogical and seems more like something for the General forum.

ED is more for debating and learning more about the topics. But that is just my opinion based on my observations and understanding of the ED.

And have I got a sweet deal about ideas and concept for you!

Memes: a new way of looking at ideas and concepts like living organisms, whereas radical ideas and extreme concepts are like viruses with attitudes such as ignorance, intolerance, and bias.

This might even worth a new topic of its own, don't you think so?
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Posted 1/5/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

I think its better to learn and evolve your opinion wen new information and facts present it self. I also think of the ed as a place to learn more about things, at the same time giving others a chance to learn the knowledge that you might have. TO stick with a baseless ideal seems a little illogical and seems more like something for the General forum.

ED is more for debating and learning more about the topics. But that is just my opinion based on my observations and understanding of the ED.


Yes it's better to learn and evolve but how can you achieve it when you can't be exposed to new ones? How will you know if your opinion is factual or not if it'll not be tested? As I've said in one of my earlier posts, if an opinion is wrong, we can say it but only as a guide. If you disagree on his/her opinion, you may point a link to a factual reference of your beliefs and let the person choose to remain believing their own or to know the flaws of their beliefs. You let the person choose, not impose your ideas on them on what is the "correct" idea. I do love the freedom of expression in the internet, and it saddens me when people are silenced or they copy/plainly agree to any opinion in their fear of being ridiculed for their own. We can "still" be civilized, right?

Btw, is ED encyclopedia dramatica? Oh i love that site!
Posted 1/5/10

Kill099 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

I think its better to learn and evolve your opinion wen new information and facts present it self. I also think of the ed as a place to learn more about things, at the same time giving others a chance to learn the knowledge that you might have. TO stick with a baseless ideal seems a little illogical and seems more like something for the General forum.

ED is more for debating and learning more about the topics. But that is just my opinion based on my observations and understanding of the ED.


Yes it's better to learn and evolve but how can you achieve it when you can't be exposed to new ones? How will you know if your opinion is factual or not if it'll not be tested? As I've said in one of my earlier posts, if an opinion is wrong, we can say it but only as a guide. If you disagree on his/her opinion, you may point a link to a factual reference of your beliefs and let the person choose to remain believing their own or to know the flaws of their beliefs. You let the person choose, not impose your ideas on them on what is the "correct" idea. I do love the freedom of expression in the internet, and it saddens me when people are silenced or they copy/plainly agree to any opinion in their fear of being ridiculed for their own. We can "still" be civilized, right?

Btw, is ED encyclopedia dramatica? Oh i love that site!

Because no amount of guidance or exposure is enough for an ignorant, intolerant, and bias individual to change even for a better idea, when radical ideas and extreme concepts can act like viruses with bad attitudes(citation). While at the same time we're not always in control with our own decisions, just because how easily we can be fooled by simple optical illusions(citation).

And besides, depending on what's your idea of "civility" is, you can be an independent and flexible free thinker, or a drone pretends to act civil. It's therefore your call, or is it really so?
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Posted 1/6/10

DomFortress wrote:


Kill099 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Kill099 wrote:

Which is better, to voice your own opinion even though it's wrong or to have the "correct" opinion even though it's not yours? What's the use of free expression if you can't even have your own opinion? Is this forum/website a scientific search for facts or a friendly venue to express your opinions?

People take the internet too seriously, like fools who love to win small battles that don't matter.

I think its better to learn and evolve your opinion wen new information and facts present it self. I also think of the ed as a place to learn more about things, at the same time giving others a chance to learn the knowledge that you might have. TO stick with a baseless ideal seems a little illogical and seems more like something for the General forum.

ED is more for debating and learning more about the topics. But that is just my opinion based on my observations and understanding of the ED.


Yes it's better to learn and evolve but how can you achieve it when you can't be exposed to new ones? How will you know if your opinion is factual or not if it'll not be tested? As I've said in one of my earlier posts, if an opinion is wrong, we can say it but only as a guide. If you disagree on his/her opinion, you may point a link to a factual reference of your beliefs and let the person choose to remain believing their own or to know the flaws of their beliefs. You let the person choose, not impose your ideas on them on what is the "correct" idea. I do love the freedom of expression in the internet, and it saddens me when people are silenced or they copy/plainly agree to any opinion in their fear of being ridiculed for their own. We can "still" be civilized, right?

Btw, is ED encyclopedia dramatica? Oh i love that site!

Because no amount of guidance or exposure is enough for an ignorant, intolerant, and bias individual to change even for a better idea, when radical ideas and extreme concepts can act like viruses with bad attitudes(citation). While at the same time we're not always in control with our own decisions, just because how easily we can be fooled by simple optical illusions(citation).

And besides, depending on what's your idea of "civility" is, you can be an independent and flexible free thinker, or a drone pretends to act civil. It's therefore your call, or is it really so?


Because no amount of guidance or exposure is enough for an ignorant, intolerant, and bias individual to change even for a better idea, when radical ideas and extreme concepts can act like viruses with bad attitudes

That's why it's often futile to argue on someone's idea especially in the internet. It's up to the person whether he/she accepts their mistakes, whatever they choose is neither your loss nor gain. In the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes, we're not always in control of our decisions, there are many factors not limited to optical illusions but how does this relates to having an opinion and deciding on it in a forum?

Then, when does civility start and end? Can you call a friendly discussion on ideas civil when you couldn't have your own ideas? That you can't even freely express what you think about a topic without being ridiculed? We're here discussing such topics because we're civil enough to respect each other as a person.
Posted 1/6/10 , edited 1/6/10

Kill099 wrote:



Because no amount of guidance or exposure is enough for an ignorant, intolerant, and bias individual to change even for a better idea, when radical ideas and extreme concepts can act like viruses with bad attitudes

That's why it's often futile to argue on someone's idea especially in the internet. It's up to the person whether he/she accepts their mistakes, whatever they choose is neither your loss nor gain. In the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Yes, we're not always in control of our decisions, there are many factors not limited to optical illusions but how does this relates to having an opinion and deciding on it in a forum?

Then, when does civility start and end? Can you call a friendly discussion on ideas civil when you couldn't have your own ideas? That you can't even freely express what you think about a topic without being ridiculed? We're here discussing such topics because we're civil enough to respect each other as a person.

So are you telling me that you're now ready to take responsibility of your own actions, which are your opinions on the ED forum? Because I'll let you know that what I am doing to you right now is intellectually criticising you to your own individual morality. Meaning you just can't say irresponsible things like "That's why it's often futile to argue on someone's idea especially in the internet", when you should know just how viral and dangerous that particular closed-minded meme is. That you're irresponsibly spreading via the internet.

And just because we're not always in control of our decisions, that doesn't mean we can't be flexible in our method at regaining total control of our actions. Just because you feel gratifying for saying something right now, doesn't mean you said anything meaningful when you didn't put enough thought in whatever that you've said. I may sometimes speak in metaphor because I felt like having fun with my artistic side, that's not the same with you speaking nonsense.

And finally, a delusion of civil niceness or friendliness by forcing everyone have to be nice and friendly with one another via political correctness. Is a prime setup for the "seven social processes that grease the slippery slope of evil":
* Mindlessly taking the first small step - you accepting the "be nice and friendly" rule without questioning its merits
* Dehumanization of others - ignoring your natural likes and dislikes
* De-individuation of self (anonymity) - your CR profiles without real ID, anyone?
* Diffusion of personal responsibility - "internet is serious business"
* Blind Obedience to Authority - obey mod VS Obama
* Uncritical conformity to group norms - what is the General Forum
* Passive tolerance of evil through inaction or indifference - namely you, you, and you

And before you ask, individually I am in every way different than you. That aside from the fact that I'm an amateur social scientist, I'm also:
1)Do I sound like I was being nice with you, no? That's because I'm not.
2)I'm not being nice with you at all because I don't think you deserve it.
3)I have real photos of myself in my CR profile.
4)I'm always serious when I'm honest and sincere with my thoughts and feelings.
5)I had records of me getting banned consecutively in less than 2 days, only to be unbanned 4 days into my second ban after I argued with the mod who banned me.
6)I stay away from the general forum like the plague.
7)see my CR profile on "about me".
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Posted 1/6/10
Kill099, you appear to be somewhat mistaken regarding the purpose behind such discussions. It is commonplace to appeal to philosophy and fairness and morality and whatnot in pursuit of pushing forward one's views, but lofty ideals will not prove the validity of a single contention provided. If two participants disagree irreconcilably, that presents two possible conclusions:

-one is right, the other wrong
-both are wrong

The 'both are right' option is not available. If you prove me wrong, I cannot, at the same time, be right. My opinion or view has no bearing on factual reality. If I argue that iron never melts, regardless of temperature and you prove me wrong by demonstrating how iron melts by pointing to the example of a furnace, it will be irrelevant what I believe. If I continue to spout nonsensical rubbish to the extent that iron does never melt, I will be reproducing erroneous views and the other participants do not desire to be flooded or even briefly presented with mistaken rubbish borne by inadequate reason and lack of critical thinking. Yes, you are allowed to hold an erroneous opinion, yes, you are even allowed to express it, within the rules and regulations of the medium (in the current case a forum) involved, but no, you do not have a reasonable expectation that you will be able to avoid criticism.

It is a social convention that we do not bombard one another with nonsense that has been proven wrong in various forums (in the loose sense). I could invoke the Ontological Argument for the existence of God, but in all honesty, it has been proven wrong time and time again in various 'arenas'. To reword and clarify what I have said above, if you have been proven wrong: the end. Whether you think you are right is of no importance. You are wrong. You cannot manipulate states of affairs through sheer willpower. This is in line with DomFortress' view on abusing the freedom of expression. Yes, you can do it, but it is not reasonable, rather, it is bereft altogether of logic.
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Posted 1/6/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

Kill099, you appear to be somewhat mistaken regarding the purpose behind such discussions. It is commonplace to appeal to philosophy and fairness and morality and whatnot in pursuit of pushing forward one's views, but lofty ideals will not prove the validity of a single contention provided. If two participants disagree irreconcilably, that presents two possible conclusions:

-one is right, the other wrong
-both are wrong

The 'both are right' option is not available. If you prove me wrong, I cannot, at the same time, be right. My opinion or view has no bearing on factual reality. If I argue that iron never melts, regardless of temperature and you prove me wrong by demonstrating how iron melts by pointing to the example of a furnace, it will be irrelevant what I believe. If I continue to spout nonsensical rubbish to the extent that iron does never melt, I will be reproducing erroneous views and the other participants do not desire to be flooded or even briefly presented with mistaken rubbish borne by inadequate reason and lack of critical thinking. Yes, you are allowed to hold an erroneous opinion, yes, you are even allowed to express it, within the rules and regulations of the medium (in the current case a forum) involved, but no, you do not have a reasonable expectation that you will be able to avoid criticism.

It is a social convention that we do not bombard one another with nonsense that has been proven wrong in various forums (in the loose sense). I could invoke the Ontological Argument for the existence of God, but in all honesty, it has been proven wrong time and time again in various 'arenas'. To reword and clarify what I have said above, if you have been proven wrong: the end. Whether you think you are right is of no importance. You are wrong. You cannot manipulate states of affairs through sheer willpower. This is in line with DomFortress' view on abusing the freedom of expression. Yes, you can do it, but it is not reasonable, rather, it is bereft altogether of logic.


Hmm Iron.. Did you know this little fact.. Once Iron starts melting Heat is no longer needed. By producing a steady stream of air to the melting spot the iron will keep melting. Yes Melting Iron can be produced through a chemical reactions using oxygen as long as the iron has already started its melting faze..
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Posted 1/6/10

Hmm Iron.. Did you know this little fact.. Once Iron starts melting Heat is no longer needed. By producing a steady stream of air to the melting spot the iron will keep melting. Yes Melting Iron can be produced through a chemical reactions using oxygen as long as the iron has already started its melting faze..


I had no idea, it is quite fascinating information.
Posted 1/6/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:


Hmm Iron.. Did you know this little fact.. Once Iron starts melting Heat is no longer needed. By producing a steady stream of air to the melting spot the iron will keep melting. Yes Melting Iron can be produced through a chemical reactions using oxygen as long as the iron has already started its melting faze..


I had no idea, it is quite fascinating information.

You gotta handed to our resident metal artist there, he knows what he's talking about. For to him, that's "common sense" which comes within his territory of profession.
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Posted 1/6/10
So, a track torch, iron, and a supply of compressed oxygen.

Guess I'll have to pester the chemistry or physics department for those.
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Posted 1/6/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

So, a track torch, iron, and a supply of compressed oxygen.

Guess I'll have to pester the chemistry or physics department for those.



If you have a steady hand you can pull this off with a hand cutting torch as well.
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