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You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
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Posted 1/8/10 , edited 1/8/10

DomFortress wrote:

So are you telling me that you're now ready to take responsibility of your own actions, which are your opinions on the ED forum? Because I'll let you know that what I am doing to you right now is intellectually criticising you to your own individual morality. Meaning you just can't say irresponsible things like "That's why it's often futile to argue on someone's idea especially in the internet", when you should know just how viral and dangerous that particular closed-minded meme is. That you're irresponsibly spreading via the internet.


Oh my, it seems I've made you angry. Ok, let's discuss this nice and slow. Aren't we all responsible for our decisions? Then I ask you, what is the purpose for overly criticizing each other's idea on the net? What is this big "responsibility" in the net? Do you think that anything you say and do in this forum greatly affects what happens in the "real" world? That's why I think people like you who take the internet too seriously are, to say it nicely, fools who like to win small and useless battles that don't matter. You waste time with me but you've said nothing convincing. You do have the choice of ignoring me, yet you feel "responsible" to correct me, which you have done badly.


And just because we're not always in control of our decisions, that doesn't mean we can't be flexible in our method at regaining total control of our actions. Just because you feel gratifying for saying something right now, doesn't mean you said anything meaningful when you didn't put enough thought in whatever that you've said. I may sometimes speak in metaphor because I felt like having fun with my artistic side, that's not the same with you speaking nonsense.


You're talking about flexibility yet you still haven't answered my previous question. How does this "we are not usually in control of our decisions like in some optical illusions" related to choosing what to believe in the net? You may think that I don't make sense. Then, who is the one that takes the internet too seriously? Who is the one who sees memes as something viral that "responsibility" is needed? I do see some memes and think them as funny, but I'll not be M-bating just to make god kill kittens. When you see someone in the forums that spews nonsense, do you always have the "responsibility" to correct them? Do you have the "flexibility" to think that the person might me smart enough to provoke such attention from you just to be entertained? Then multiply that person to a million, are you ready to be "responsible" to entertain them all? Do you expect everyone to be "responsible" enough that they should always post something meaningful? Do you ever think that the person just need a little help with his/her ideas? Did it not occur in your mind that to deal with a person who don't listen to you or spews nonsense is to ignore them?


And finally, a delusion of civil niceness or friendliness by forcing everyone have to be nice and friendly with one another via political correctness. Is a prime setup for the "seven social processes that grease the slippery slope of evil":
* Mindlessly taking the first small step - you accepting the "be nice and friendly" rule without questioning its merits
* Dehumanization of others - ignoring your natural likes and dislikes
* De-individuation of self (anonymity) - your CR profiles without real ID, anyone?
* Diffusion of personal responsibility - "internet is serious business"
* Blind Obedience to Authority - obey mod VS Obama
* Uncritical conformity to group norms - what is the General Forum
* Passive tolerance of evil through inaction or indifference - namely you, you, and you


I didn't say anything about forcefully being nice. I simply said that you do need to respect someone's opinion. If you think an opinion is wrong then say it, only as a guide. Then let the person choose. What's wrong with that? Then you mentioned something about "THE GREASE ON THE SLIPPERY SLOPE OF EVIL". Is this a joke? Coz you're funny as hell, really, no sarcasm. Which is more evil, to have the "responsibility" to impose the "correct" ideas, or to let the person choose? All the things that you've listed is countered by only one, choice. They had the choice of staying dumb or learn and be smart. Most of the time, it's the people who feels that they have the "responsibility" to impose their "correct" ideas that makes the world so evil.


And before you ask, individually I am in every way different than you. That aside from the fact that I'm an amateur social scientist, I'm also:
1)Do I sound like I was being nice with you, no? That's because I'm not.
2)I'm not being nice with you at all because I don't think you deserve it.
3)I have real photos of myself in my CR profile.
4)I'm always serious when I'm honest and sincere with my thoughts and feelings.
5)I had records of me getting banned consecutively in less than 2 days, only to be unbanned 4 days into my second ban after I argued with the mod who banned me.
6)I stay away from the general forum like the plague.
7)see my CR profile on "about me".


Ok since you brag about yourself and mentioned something personal (even though it has nothing relevant about the topic) I'll also tell you about what I think:

1) No, I never said that you're nice to me, I only said that we're civil enough to have this discussion.
2) I don't need to deserve anything from you.
3) Who cares if you have "real" photos in C.R. Anyone can have "real" photos especially in the internet.
4) At least we have something in common. But there is a limit on being personally/emotionally attached to a discussion.
5) Is this something to be bragged about? You know gendou.com? You can download free anime mp3s there yet I was banned a long time ago. They trace ip addresses of accounts which means if you're banned, you're banned. I emailed them, then my account was reactivated.
6) I do understand the dread you have with the general forums, but I post there from time to time. Posting here at c.r. is just my cure from boredom when I'm charging my PSP so I can't be picky.
7) Why would I do that?

Btw, since you've mentioned that you're an amateur social scientist, what can you say about the "silence" on the internet and the "bandwagon effect " (i do hope that I have the correct terms). If this discussion boils down to an another exchange of insults, this will be my last post regarding this discussion.

If you ask me what is our responsibility in the forums: Our responsibility lies in making sure that each and everyone in the forums has a voice. That each and everyone is free to choose whatever they want to believe in. That they should be respected as persons no matter what they choose to believe. That any view may be right or wrong, but that is their opinion.
Posted 1/8/10
I have a set of shurikens. Your argument is invalid.
Posted 1/8/10 , edited 1/8/10

Kill099 wrote:



Btw, since you've mentioned that you're an amateur social scientist, what can you say about the "silence" on the internet and the "bandwagon effect " (i do hope that I have the correct terms). If this discussion boils down to an another exchange of insults, this will be my last post regarding this discussion.

If you ask me what is our responsibility in the forums: Our responsibility lies in making sure that each and everyone in the forums has a voice. That each and everyone is free to choose whatever they want to believe in. That they should be respected as persons no matter what they choose to believe. That any view may be right or wrong, but that is their opinion.

Oh, I hurt your feeling because I said you were being "irresponsible" when you were not "serious". Well then, I'm not going to take your not so serious excuses. Because for all we know, you're only pretending to be responsible but in reality you're just throwing a temper tantrum.

Because otherwise, you could take your own advise and STFU. But instead, you jumped on my bandwagon by you trying to rebuke me. And the only way for you to prove me wrong is for you to STFU from now on, which BTW it still proves my prediction about your previous behavior to be correct.

Social science is not your own plaything, and neither is the freedom of speech. When you don't understand why and how "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance".

Therefore why so serious? When you're not happy when you're serious, while you don't even know how to utilize your own anger to your advantage. Because you never once been serious with your own thoughts or feelings. Due to that pessimistic attitude of yours which makes you no fun at all.

And this is why I choose to make myself into an amateur social scientist, and not me being just another career criminal mastermind. Because I won't be happy influencing thugs like you , when I have the benefit of humanity in mind.

Not used to being rebuked like this? Well just what do you expect from playing that much PSP of yours, when studying human behaviorism is not the same as playing boring video games.
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Posted 1/8/10

DomFortress wrote:


Kill099 wrote:



Btw, since you've mentioned that you're an amateur social scientist, what can you say about the "silence" on the internet and the "bandwagon effect " (i do hope that I have the correct terms). If this discussion boils down to an another exchange of insults, this will be my last post regarding this discussion.

If you ask me what is our responsibility in the forums: Our responsibility lies in making sure that each and everyone in the forums has a voice. That each and everyone is free to choose whatever they want to believe in. That they should be respected as persons no matter what they choose to believe. That any view may be right or wrong, but that is their opinion.

Oh, I hurt your feeling because I said you were being "irresponsible" when you were not "serious". Well then, I'm not going to take your not so serious excuses. Because for all we know, you're only pretending to be responsible but in reality you're just throwing a temper tantrum.

Because otherwise, you could take your own advise and STFU. But instead, you jumped on my bandwagon by you trying to rebuke me. And the only way for you to prove me wrong is for you to STFU from now on, which BTW it still proves my prediction about your previous behavior to be correct.

Social science is not your own plaything, and neither is the freedom of speech. When you don't understand why and how "the price of freedom is eternal vigilance".

Therefore why so serious? When you're not happy when you're serious, while you don't even know how to utilize your own anger to your advantage. Because you never once been serious with your own thoughts or feelings. Due to that pessimistic attitude of yours which makes you no fun at all.

And this is why I choose to make myself into an amateur social scientist, and not me being just another career criminal mastermind. Because I won't be happy influencing thugs like you , when I have the benefit of humanity in mind.

Not used to being rebuked like this? Well just what do you expect from playing that much PSP of yours, when studying human behaviorism is not the same as playing boring video games.


You always assume whatever extremes you have in your mind on whatever I've posted. You don't even answer any of my questions to make this a decent discussion. You love to call yourself an amateur social scientist yet you can't even answer any of my questions. I can't understand what you're really trying to say yet you don't give a damn to explain. You spew things like memes and the greasy whatever of evil but you never explain the relevance of it. You never told me this responsibility that is needed in the forums. In the end you've said nothing useful nor relevant in this discussion, only personal attacks. Btw, who's the one with the tantrums? You've never disproven whatever I said nor proven whatever you've said and just told me to STFU. All I can say is that at least I'm not someone like you bragging to be something, I'm just stating my ideas. I just like to discuss this topic with you, that's all, if you have a problem with that then I'll stop. I don't have any aim to rebuke you, you're the one who's trying to rebuke me ever since you quoted my post. Then you assume that I'm nice to you that I want to force niceness in the forums. Now I now know who you really are: you're delusional, paranoid, you always assume wrong, you have reading comprehension problems, prone to anger, easy to provoke, and most of all, you love to brag things that are useless, baseless, have no proof and irrelevant. Good luck for being an amateur if you really are one (I doubt it), you need lots of it with your not so good personality and close mindedness. It's good not to be you, you're just scared of meme's and want to control everyone's opinion. You see someone who just simply tells his ideas as simple as possible a pessimist, I pity you.
Posted 1/8/10

Kill099 wrote:

You see someone who just simply tells his ideas as simple as possible a pessimist, I pity you. :(

For "pity makes suffering contagious", therefore you're pitying because you've always been suffering.

Or perhaps it's you who lacks true compassion, because those with real compassion will empower others who are less fortunate than they are.

However, since I don't pity you, you don't deserve my compassion. And if that's your idea of expressing your pity, your concept of having compassion is therefore not to empower others.

And to think I referenced all my scientific resources via hyperlinks, all those efforts at empowering someone with knowledge wasted on the likes of you pessimist. It's a good thing I'm just an amateur scientist, so I can continue doing what I like for fun and not getting paid for my research and experiment on you.
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Posted 1/8/10 , edited 1/8/10
What are you going on about? Kinda feels like ad hominem attacks being exchanged.

The arguments I see are kind of chaotic.

There really is no reason to believe that any action should be taken. There is equally no responsibility to correct and a responsibility to allow people to voice their views. The forum simply allows users to act within the constraints of the rules and regulations and nothing more. An argument to the extent that the forum has some implied purpose, other than to provide a place for what has not been expressly prohibited by the above mentioned rules and regulations, can not be supported by any evidence inherent (contained on crunchyroll.com) in these forums.

Now, to diverge here, let me pose this question: What is the forum most commonly used for?
The answer is: to exchange information. In other words, to ascertain the truth as to specific issues and aid the process of ascertainment mutually. We are not here to exchange erroneous views, now are we? It is somehow hard to believe that the purpose of this website is to spread disinformation or to provide a platform for the spreading of it. Simply put, if you are proven wrong, what you wrote is wrong. It matters not whether what you believe in your inmost mind is right or not, if what you have written is wrong, that is, for all practical purposes mis-, or disinformation, depending on your state of mind. Now pardon me, but if you are spreading false information deliberately, that poses the threat of causing members who are easily persuaded (there is an abundance of young members on these forums, who are yet to develop critical thinking and argumentation skills to a sustainable level) to be mislead. I think there is a very valid public policy reason for not allowing this, considering that it is not in the interest of the public to be mislead or to allow its gullible members to be mislead.

Another public policy thing is to reward the mentally agile and the clever. If we are to see demonstrations of mental capacity on these forums, it only makes sense to encourage it. If erroneous, mistaken views are allowed to go free and spoil the boards, despite the efforts and ingenuity of the members who have prevailed in arguments, the incentive to create clarity is greatly diminished, if not destroyed altogether.

My first paragraph is written as a general observation, whereas the latter two are addressed chiefly to Kill099, who still owes me an answer: http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-555604/you-have-your-opinion-i-have-my-opinion/?pg=3#29442867
Posted 1/11/10


You couldn't be more right.
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Posted 1/19/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
This is a well used comment in this forum.

Let us look closer at this Ideal. First what this statement is insinuating that all opinions are equal.
Now if you think about it its far from the truth. Opinions are not equal so using this comment to end the debate is "bullshit. ( do to lack of a better word)"
Opinions are not equals!

That is like saying that the sky is blue because the sky is a Giant Ice dome like roof covering the earth. This opinion holds little to no Value because it is base on no evidence just plain uneducated ignorance.
What makes people think you have your opinion and I have my opinion is a good Point?
Opinions are not equals, if a opinion is base on evidence and well known facts, than that opinion should be respected more than an opinion base on "Blind Faith" Sorry the word fits..

It is those people in this forum non-the-less who use that statement to end any debate, allows them to save face.
But should people be allowed to use such a remark wen in any forum not just the ED.
I find it really hard to respect someone who would say the earth is flat, then wen you explain to them how that is not so, they use the you have your opinion I have my opinion comment as if that makes them just as right as you are. As if opinions are all equals.

Now what is your Opinion on Opinions.
And sorry about it coming out kinda like a rant.
This opinion thing just happens way to much in my opinion.


There are facts and there are opinions. That distinction is fairly clear ("the table is round" vs. "the table is pretty"). It does get a bit more complicated when you get into the subcategories of opinions, as different opinions can have more or less basis in fact. You can also have equally valid, yet different, opinions based on the same facts. Therefore, the statement "You have your opinion, I have my opinion" can be entirely valid, for example, if used to say "We have differing yet equally valid opinions, and clearly neither of us can convince the other to change opinions, so we may as well end this now". On the other hand, when it is used instead of admitting a clear defeat, that is another story entirely.

However, it is important to remember to keep an open mind. Opinions that differ from your own, even false ones, can still provide valuable insights and different perspetives. And if you ask for open-mindedness from others, you must be willing to see reason yourself, even if it doesn't appear to be reason from your perspective.
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Posted 1/20/10

madlibbs wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
This is a well used comment in this forum.

Let us look closer at this Ideal. First what this statement is insinuating that all opinions are equal.
Now if you think about it its far from the truth. Opinions are not equal so using this comment to end the debate is "bullshit. ( do to lack of a better word)"
Opinions are not equals!

That is like saying that the sky is blue because the sky is a Giant Ice dome like roof covering the earth. This opinion holds little to no Value because it is base on no evidence just plain uneducated ignorance.
What makes people think you have your opinion and I have my opinion is a good Point?
Opinions are not equals, if a opinion is base on evidence and well known facts, than that opinion should be respected more than an opinion base on "Blind Faith" Sorry the word fits..

It is those people in this forum non-the-less who use that statement to end any debate, allows them to save face.
But should people be allowed to use such a remark wen in any forum not just the ED.
I find it really hard to respect someone who would say the earth is flat, then wen you explain to them how that is not so, they use the you have your opinion I have my opinion comment as if that makes them just as right as you are. As if opinions are all equals.

Now what is your Opinion on Opinions.
And sorry about it coming out kinda like a rant.
This opinion thing just happens way to much in my opinion.


There are facts and there are opinions. That distinction is fairly clear ("the table is round" vs. "the table is pretty"). It does get a bit more complicated when you get into the subcategories of opinions, as different opinions can have more or less basis in fact. You can also have equally valid, yet different, opinions based on the same facts. Therefore, the statement "You have your opinion, I have my opinion" can be entirely valid, for example, if used to say "We have differing yet equally valid opinions, and clearly neither of us can convince the other to change opinions, so we may as well end this now". On the other hand, when it is used instead of admitting a clear defeat, that is another story entirely.

However, it is important to remember to keep an open mind. Opinions that differ from your own, even false ones, can still provide valuable insights and different perspetives. And if you ask for open-mindedness from others, you must be willing to see reason yourself, even if it doesn't appear to be reason from your perspective.


The table is not pretty. It simply does not have such an attribute. The category 'pretty' is simply nonexistent. It is a misrepresentation and a bastard form of a true statement 'the shape/colour/size/etc. of the table causes me to experience emotions I find desirable'. And again, this is a statement which is either true or it is not and both parties can ascertain it. I can, for example, ascertain whether you think of an object as has been described previously. I repeat, a misrepresentation of fact is exactly that: a misrepresentation, and thus it invites no protection.
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Posted 1/20/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:


madlibbs wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
This is a well used comment in this forum.

Let us look closer at this Ideal. First what this statement is insinuating that all opinions are equal.
Now if you think about it its far from the truth. Opinions are not equal so using this comment to end the debate is "bullshit. ( do to lack of a better word)"
Opinions are not equals!

That is like saying that the sky is blue because the sky is a Giant Ice dome like roof covering the earth. This opinion holds little to no Value because it is base on no evidence just plain uneducated ignorance.
What makes people think you have your opinion and I have my opinion is a good Point?
Opinions are not equals, if a opinion is base on evidence and well known facts, than that opinion should be respected more than an opinion base on "Blind Faith" Sorry the word fits..

It is those people in this forum non-the-less who use that statement to end any debate, allows them to save face.
But should people be allowed to use such a remark wen in any forum not just the ED.
I find it really hard to respect someone who would say the earth is flat, then wen you explain to them how that is not so, they use the you have your opinion I have my opinion comment as if that makes them just as right as you are. As if opinions are all equals.

Now what is your Opinion on Opinions.
And sorry about it coming out kinda like a rant.
This opinion thing just happens way to much in my opinion.


There are facts and there are opinions. That distinction is fairly clear ("the table is round" vs. "the table is pretty"). It does get a bit more complicated when you get into the subcategories of opinions, as different opinions can have more or less basis in fact. You can also have equally valid, yet different, opinions based on the same facts. Therefore, the statement "You have your opinion, I have my opinion" can be entirely valid, for example, if used to say "We have differing yet equally valid opinions, and clearly neither of us can convince the other to change opinions, so we may as well end this now". On the other hand, when it is used instead of admitting a clear defeat, that is another story entirely.

However, it is important to remember to keep an open mind. Opinions that differ from your own, even false ones, can still provide valuable insights and different perspetives. And if you ask for open-mindedness from others, you must be willing to see reason yourself, even if it doesn't appear to be reason from your perspective.


The table is not pretty. It simply does not have such an attribute. The category 'pretty' is simply nonexistent. It is a misrepresentation and a bastard form of a true statement 'the shape/colour/size/etc. of the table causes me to experience emotions I find desirable'. And again, this is a statement which is either true or it is not and both parties can ascertain it. I can, for example, ascertain whether you think of an object as has been described previously. I repeat, a misrepresentation of fact is exactly that: a misrepresentation, and thus it invites no protection.


The table is not objectively pretty. It is not possible for anything to be objectively pretty. Perhaps even in a subjective context, I should have chosen a better example. While "pretty" does express a valid subjective response, it may not be the best way to convey such a response. Perhaps this would be more agreeable: "I like that song" vs. "I do not like that song".
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Posted 1/20/10

madlibbs wrote:


DerfelCadarn wrote:


madlibbs wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

You have your opinion, I have my opinion!
This is a well used comment in this forum.

Let us look closer at this Ideal. First what this statement is insinuating that all opinions are equal.
Now if you think about it its far from the truth. Opinions are not equal so using this comment to end the debate is "bullshit. ( do to lack of a better word)"
Opinions are not equals!

That is like saying that the sky is blue because the sky is a Giant Ice dome like roof covering the earth. This opinion holds little to no Value because it is base on no evidence just plain uneducated ignorance.
What makes people think you have your opinion and I have my opinion is a good Point?
Opinions are not equals, if a opinion is base on evidence and well known facts, than that opinion should be respected more than an opinion base on "Blind Faith" Sorry the word fits..

It is those people in this forum non-the-less who use that statement to end any debate, allows them to save face.
But should people be allowed to use such a remark wen in any forum not just the ED.
I find it really hard to respect someone who would say the earth is flat, then wen you explain to them how that is not so, they use the you have your opinion I have my opinion comment as if that makes them just as right as you are. As if opinions are all equals.

Now what is your Opinion on Opinions.
And sorry about it coming out kinda like a rant.
This opinion thing just happens way to much in my opinion.


There are facts and there are opinions. That distinction is fairly clear ("the table is round" vs. "the table is pretty"). It does get a bit more complicated when you get into the subcategories of opinions, as different opinions can have more or less basis in fact. You can also have equally valid, yet different, opinions based on the same facts. Therefore, the statement "You have your opinion, I have my opinion" can be entirely valid, for example, if used to say "We have differing yet equally valid opinions, and clearly neither of us can convince the other to change opinions, so we may as well end this now". On the other hand, when it is used instead of admitting a clear defeat, that is another story entirely.

However, it is important to remember to keep an open mind. Opinions that differ from your own, even false ones, can still provide valuable insights and different perspetives. And if you ask for open-mindedness from others, you must be willing to see reason yourself, even if it doesn't appear to be reason from your perspective.


The table is not pretty. It simply does not have such an attribute. The category 'pretty' is simply nonexistent. It is a misrepresentation and a bastard form of a true statement 'the shape/colour/size/etc. of the table causes me to experience emotions I find desirable'. And again, this is a statement which is either true or it is not and both parties can ascertain it. I can, for example, ascertain whether you think of an object as has been described previously. I repeat, a misrepresentation of fact is exactly that: a misrepresentation, and thus it invites no protection.


The table is not objectively pretty. It is not possible for anything to be objectively pretty. Perhaps even in a subjective context, I should have chosen a better example. While "pretty" does express a valid subjective response, it may not be the best way to convey such a response. Perhaps this would be more agreeable: "I like that song" vs. "I do not like that song".


Ultimately if you create a nonexistent term referring to a nonexistent 'thing' such as 'pretty' you are not accurately describing a thing or a state of affairs. Just take justified true belief. You may believe an object to be pretty (whatever the hell that entails), but it is neither true nor have you any justification. Take your example, for example ("I like that song" vs. "I do not like that song"), there is a great difference when expressed as 'I like that song' and when expressed in the form 'that is a great song'. In the first case, it is possible to obtain justification, whereas in the second it is not possible.

I have attached an image to better demonstrate the matter.
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Posted 1/20/10



I will admit that "the table is pretty" was a poor choice of words on my part to illustrate my point. It does appear that that statement illustrates a great deficiency in the use of words to convey that idea in the English language, in that the structure of the sentence does appear to phrase this subjective opinion as an objective attribute.

As for your statement "You may believe an object to be pretty (whatever the hell that entails), but it is neither true nor have you any justification.", my point was never to prove that the table has objectively praiseworthy beauty. I am fully aware that that would not be possible, just as the opposite (being objectively unpraiseworthy) would be equally impossible. As the saying goes, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". It is subjective, in that it reflects on the beholder and his or her emotional reaction, and thereby does not pertain to the object, other than that it was the object that elicited that response - this, of course, also reflecting back to the beholder.

In your next statement, "there is a great difference when expressed as 'I like that song' and when expressed in the form 'that is a great song'.", you make an excellent point, which I addressed in the first paragraph. The two statements are often used interchangeably by modern English speakers. Both are used (and the second is used incorrectly here) to denote appreciation - in other words, expressing that the song has elicited a positive emotional reaction.

In the picture you attached, I understand the central point of your argument. The specifics have me a bit confused - if Participant 2 finds the table not to his liking, wouldn't his statement be "I do not like that"? Furthermore, the point you made at the end of the picture is the point that I was trying to make to begin with - differing opinions can be equally valid. Both opinions about the table have the same basis in fact (nothing about the table has changed, and we're assuming both emotional reactions are honest), yet neither one is any more true or false than the other.
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Posted 1/20/10
I understand what you are saying, and to a considerable degree we agree, what I am claiming is, however, that they cannot both be correct. The reason is that when expressing 'I like that' or 'I don't like that', they are simply not advancing observations as to the same subject. If participant 1 likes the table and participant 2 claims that participant 1 does not, in fact, like the table, one of them will invariably have to be wrong. When you say 'I like that table.', you are not making an observation (not expressily and not primarily) as to the qualities of the table, but rather, you are describing your attributes. Namely, you are expressing that you are person who likes that table, not that the table is an object liked by you. Again, even if you say that the table is an object liked by you, whether that statement is true can be ascertained and if one party claims it is true and the other the contrary, one of them will have to be wrong.

As for the confusing 'I like that' thing on part on participant 2, I apologise for that, it was meant to be 'I don't like that'.
Posted 1/20/10 , edited 1/20/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and to a considerable degree we agree, what I am claiming is, however, that they cannot both be correct. The reason is that when expressing 'I like that' or 'I don't like that', they are simply not advancing observations as to the same subject. If participant 1 likes the table and participant 2 claims that participant 1 does not, in fact, like the table, one of them will invariably have to be wrong. When you say 'I like that table.', you are not making an observation (not expressily and not primarily) as to the qualities of the table, but rather, you are describing your attributes. Namely, you are expressing that you are person who likes that table, not that the table is an object liked by you. Again, even if you say that the table is an object liked by you, whether that statement is true can be ascertained and if one party claims it is true and the other the contrary, one of them will have to be wrong.

As for the confusing 'I like that' thing on part on participant 2, I apologise for that, it was meant to be 'I don't like that'.
So basically "like or dislike" is an opinion due to the fact that it's different among individuals.

Furthermore, such opinion can be seen as a self-proclaimed statement of individual status. As it automatically devises individuals into different groups. Fascinating.

Therefore, I think it stands to reason that when I am an none-smoker, who gets into an debate with smokers about the reason why they smoke. I can argue that they like to smoke not because of the benefits from smoking(as if there is any ), but rather it's because individually they like to ruin their health. And they want to waste precious resources in the future, by them abusing the health care system with their lack of foresight.
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Posted 1/20/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

I understand what you are saying, and to a considerable degree we agree, what I am claiming is, however, that they cannot both be correct. The reason is that when expressing 'I like that' or 'I don't like that', they are simply not advancing observations as to the same subject. If participant 1 likes the table and participant 2 claims that participant 1 does not, in fact, like the table, one of them will invariably have to be wrong. When you say 'I like that table.', you are not making an observation (not expressily and not primarily) as to the qualities of the table, but rather, you are describing your attributes. Namely, you are expressing that you are person who likes that table, not that the table is an object liked by you. Again, even if you say that the table is an object liked by you, whether that statement is true can be ascertained and if one party claims it is true and the other the contrary, one of them will have to be wrong.

As for the confusing 'I like that' thing on part on participant 2, I apologise for that, it was meant to be 'I don't like that'.


It appears there has been some confusion. My apologies if my argument was unclear. What I am trying to say is that given the same information (the table has stayed the same, and we can assume that emotional reactions are sincere in this case), two different people can have two different - not necessarily opposite, but different - opinions, and can both be correct. When arguing about facts, someone is right and someone is wrong - almost always if not always. However, opinions can be different and still be true. I could say "I like that song" and you could say "I don't like that song", and we can both be right, even though our opinions are not the same. To quote my original argument, "the statement "You have your opinion, I have my opinion" can be entirely valid, for example, if used to say "We have differing yet equally valid opinions, and clearly neither of us can convince the other to change opinions, so we may as well end this now". ". It would appear as though the issue was in my poor choice of examples when distinguishing between fact and opinion. Perhaps I should have replaced "the table is pretty" with "I like the table", thus removing any confusion associated with the opinion "the table is pretty", whose format seems to mistakenly imply that I was stating a fact.
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