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Why do you think Communism is good or bad?
Yei
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Posted 4/27/10

tarakelly wrote:

In 15 your so year you will find out how full it your teacher are unless you become one. People that have not do not to compete in the privet sector. have that attitude. If you me your prince charming that makes loads of money you will really hate living in a socialist state. By the way I am pretty sure we do not have a department to undermine other counties. Your own country is self destroying quiet nicely thank you.


Wow, that's some pretty bad grammar and English in general, but I'll try to go through it.

I don't know what you're talking about in the first sentence. I don't understand the second sentence at all. The rest is also difficult to follow....

But I do get the idea you don't know what you're talking about. Tell me what a socialist state is, let's see.
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

digs wrote:


Yei wrote:


tarakelly wrote:

Communism if you like mass murder it fine. The wealthy are the heads of party and military. Stallion has been said murder30 to 40 million after WW11 was over. China Mao Zedong estimate 50 to 70 million. Cambodia and Vietnam millions but finding numbers is difficult with all the different wars. If people could act like ants it would work well. Please show me a working communist country. I am assuming this post was a joke


None of those were communist or any form of socialist states. Socialism is probably the fairest, most logical form of society humans have come up with so far.

I'd recommend studying what socialism is first before talking about it, US indoctrination on this topic has been going on for a century so I can understand how people already have set views and yet don't know what they're talking about.


Actually they were communist and socialist states. Mao Zedong was part of the Communist Party of China. Stalin was part of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union's official name was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The official name of Vietnam is the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. These countries were all communist/socialist nations and the wicked leaders who murdered millions were part of communist socialist political parties.

My personal opinion on communism is that it is one of the worst forms of government. It's a terrible political philosophy that makes everyone slaves to the state. I also think socialism is a terrible form of government as well. People should have freedom and small government, not big government regulating what is "fair" and having the whole nation dependent on the government.


You can call your party whatever you want, it doesn't change the reality. I can call Canada a fascism, but it won't change reality.

There was nothing socialist about the Soviet Union, since the revolution in 1917 until it's collapse. It soon turned into an insane totalitarian state. Same with China, nothing socialist about it, totalitarian right from the beginning. There's been no real socialist state so far, only a few have had some socialist aspects.

Again, I can understand the century of US indoctrination has massive effects on people's view on socialism and communism. The main effect being people don't know what they are.
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digs 
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Posted 4/27/10

Yei wrote:


digs wrote:


Yei wrote:


tarakelly wrote:

Communism if you like mass murder it fine. The wealthy are the heads of party and military. Stallion has been said murder30 to 40 million after WW11 was over. China Mao Zedong estimate 50 to 70 million. Cambodia and Vietnam millions but finding numbers is difficult with all the different wars. If people could act like ants it would work well. Please show me a working communist country. I am assuming this post was a joke


None of those were communist or any form of socialist states. Socialism is probably the fairest, most logical form of society humans have come up with so far.

I'd recommend studying what socialism is first before talking about it, US indoctrination on this topic has been going on for a century so I can understand how people already have set views and yet don't know what they're talking about.


Actually they were communist and socialist states. Mao Zedong was part of the Communist Party of China. Stalin was part of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union's official name was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The official name of Vietnam is the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. These countries were all communist/socialist nations and the wicked leaders who murdered millions were part of communist socialist political parties.

My personal opinion on communism is that it is one of the worst forms of government. It's a terrible political philosophy that makes everyone slaves to the state. I also think socialism is a terrible form of government as well. People should have freedom and small government, not big government regulating what is "fair" and having the whole nation dependent on the government.


You can call your party whatever you want, it doesn't change the reality. I can call Canada a fascism, but it won't change reality.

There was nothing socialist about the Soviet Union, since the revolution in 1917 until it's collapse. It soon turned into an insane totalitarian state. Same with China, nothing socialist about it, totalitarian right from the beginning. There's been no real socialist state so far, only a few have had some socialist aspects.

Again, I can understand the century of US indoctrination has massive effects on people's view on socialism and communism. The main effect being people don't know what they are.


Everything the Soviet Union did was socialist. The Chinese government followed communist principals. You can say I have listen to "US indoctrination," but the facts in history show that socialism and communism are bad news. What each nation did aligned with their philosophy and most even openly named their country after it. Socialism correlates with big government, and big government always grows corrupt and hungry for more power. The idea of having the state essentially "own" all wealth and distribute it "fairly" is a terrible idea in my opinion. I agree with helping the poor, but I'm against owning everyone's wealth and spreading it around. You should be able to work hard, get an education, and reap financial benefit for making wise decisions.

The US indoctrination for many years has been towards socialism and communism. History shows that both philosophies are responsible for millions of murders. People like personal freedom, we don't need a massive government gaining all the power and dictating how we should live and who deserves to have wealth.
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It might have to being hearing in pared for the frist five years of my life. the some gueniss thought teaching spell by sound was the way to go. I site read and left alone my spelling might be far better. I worked as EE until PTSD set in.
Yei
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Posted 4/27/10

digs wrote:

Everything the Soviet Union did was socialist. The Chinese government followed communist principals. You can say I have listen to "US indoctrination," but the facts in history show that socialism and communism are bad news. What each nation did aligned with their philosophy and most even openly named their country after it. Socialism correlates with big government, and big government always grows corrupt and hungry for more power. The idea of having the state essentially "own" all wealth and distribute it "fairly" is a terrible idea in my opinion. I agree with helping the poor, but I'm against owning everyone's wealth and spreading it around. You should be able to work hard, get an education, and reap financial benefit for making wise decisions.

The US indoctrination for many years has been towards socialism and communism. History shows that both philosophies are responsible for millions of murders. People like personal freedom, we don't need a massive government gaining all the power and dictating how we should live and who deserves to have wealth.


Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?
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Posted 4/27/10

Yei wrote:

Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


USSR

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

I really dunno too much about socialism, but as I understand it.

- The government is generally larger, regulates everything, more controlling, tends to be a nanny state.
- Taxes are higher, so you have less money, you usually get more entitlments tho.
- It tends to be anti-business, anti self-reliance.
- Anti guns, weapons, military.
- Lots of govt spending;
- Taxpayer funded health care, qualities usually lower tho. cause its all about cost-efficiency instead of quality.


You know basic leftist ideals.
Yei
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:

Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


USSR

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

I really dunno too much about socialism, but as I understand it.

- The government is generally larger, regulates everything, more controlling, tends to be a nanny state.
- Taxes are higher, so you have less money, you usually get more entitlments tho.
- It tends to be anti-business, anti self-reliance.
- Anti guns, weapons, military.
- Lots of govt spending;
- Taxpayer funded health care, qualities usually lower tho. cause its all about cost-efficiency instead of quality.


You know basic leftist ideals.


This proves my point exactly. And what digs and everyone else says also does. No one has any idea what socialism is. All your information on it comes from propaganda or what the indoctrinated American culture sees it as. And I can understand that, again, one century of intense indoctrination against it has strong effects on how people think.

The most basic principles of socialism simply say working people should be in charge of production and communities have to be in charge of their own lives (the land they live on, the local economy). A good summary of it is simply the extension of democracy to the economy/industries and individual communities. The people collectively decide what should happen, to best suit their own lives. The Soviet Union was the exact opposite. People had no control over anything, they had no control over production, the economy, they owned no land, couldn't even pick where to live. It was a totalitarian state, the exact opposite of a socialist state. The same goes for China.

That's what the most basic principles of socialism are; extended democracy to the work place/production and communities, so people can decide their own fates. I think most people intuitively agree with socialism (real socialism, not the warped ideas they have in their heads), if the workers and communities were in charge of corporations, there wouldn't be any corporate tyranny anymore; and corporations would then just be institutions that do what best suits society and the people who work for them. I see it as simply real and total democracy and it eliminates big government, because the people will have almost complete control of their own communities.
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

Everything the Soviet Union did was socialist. The Chinese government followed communist principals. You can say I have listen to "US indoctrination," but the facts in history show that socialism and communism are bad news. What each nation did aligned with their philosophy and most even openly named their country after it. Socialism correlates with big government, and big government always grows corrupt and hungry for more power. The idea of having the state essentially "own" all wealth and distribute it "fairly" is a terrible idea in my opinion. I agree with helping the poor, but I'm against owning everyone's wealth and spreading it around. You should be able to work hard, get an education, and reap financial benefit for making wise decisions.

The US indoctrination for many years has been towards socialism and communism. History shows that both philosophies are responsible for millions of murders. People like personal freedom, we don't need a massive government gaining all the power and dictating how we should live and who deserves to have wealth.


Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Communist government of China governed according to socialist and communist ideals.

Economically, socialism is almost the opposite of capitalism. Socialism advocates for state ownership of business and higher taxes on citizens. It's all about making people dependent on the government for everything. Socialist countries take over the healthcare system and lie to the populace by telling them that it's "free." Nothing is free, what the government does is force you to go through the medium of government for healthcare. They "pay" the bill, but in reality you are paying higher taxes for the service, so it isn't free or universal. Socialist countries run on the philosophy that private business should be small (if allowed at all), the state should have massive power and impose high taxes on its citizens. The rich pay vast amounts of their incomes, and the populace is dependent on the government for job security and healthcare. The poor are dependent on the government for aid and financial support.

Basically, Socialism is for
Larger Government
Higher Taxes
More Control Over the Citizens
Against Capitalism and for State Ownership of the Economy
Taking the Wealth from the Rich and Spreading it "Around"

Socialism is bad news and a very bad political philosophy in my opinion.
Yei
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Posted 4/27/10

digs wrote:


Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

Everything the Soviet Union did was socialist. The Chinese government followed communist principals. You can say I have listen to "US indoctrination," but the facts in history show that socialism and communism are bad news. What each nation did aligned with their philosophy and most even openly named their country after it. Socialism correlates with big government, and big government always grows corrupt and hungry for more power. The idea of having the state essentially "own" all wealth and distribute it "fairly" is a terrible idea in my opinion. I agree with helping the poor, but I'm against owning everyone's wealth and spreading it around. You should be able to work hard, get an education, and reap financial benefit for making wise decisions.

The US indoctrination for many years has been towards socialism and communism. History shows that both philosophies are responsible for millions of murders. People like personal freedom, we don't need a massive government gaining all the power and dictating how we should live and who deserves to have wealth.


Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Communist government of China governed according to socialist and communist ideals.

Economically, socialism is almost the opposite of capitalism. Socialism advocates for state ownership of business and higher taxes on citizens. It's all about making people dependent on the government for everything. Socialist countries take over the healthcare system and lie to the populace by telling them that it's "free." Nothing is free, what the government does is force you to go through the medium of government for healthcare. They "pay" the bill, but in reality you are paying higher taxes for the service, so it isn't free or universal. Socialist countries run on the philosophy that private business should be small (if allowed at all), the state should have massive power and impose high taxes on its citizens. The rich pay vast amounts of their incomes, and the populace is dependent on the government for job security and healthcare. The poor are dependent on the government for aid and financial support.

Basically, Socialism is for
Larger Government
Higher Taxes
More Control Over the Citizens
Against Capitalism and for State Ownership of the Economy
Taking the Wealth from the Rich and Spreading it "Around"

Socialism is bad news and a very bad political philosophy in my opinion.


What you describe is a terrible type of government. Now let's review the basic principles of socialism:


The most basic principles of socialism simply say working people should be in charge of production and communities have to be in charge of their own lives (ex. they own the land they live on, they decide what type of economy to have). A good summary of it is simply the extension of democracy to the economy/industries and individual communities. The people collectively decide what should happen, to best suit their own lives. The Soviet Union was the exact opposite. People had no control over anything, they had no control over production, the economy, they owned no land, couldn't even pick where to live. It was a totalitarian state, the exact opposite of a socialist state. The same goes for China.

That's what the most basic principles of socialism are; extended democracy to the work place/production and communities, so people can decide their own fates. I think most people intuitively agree with socialism (real socialism, not the warped ideas they have in their heads), if the workers and communities were in charge of corporations, there wouldn't be any corporate tyranny anymore; and corporations would then just be institutions that do what best suits society and the people who work for them. I see it as simply real and total democracy and it eliminates big government, because the people will have almost complete control of their own communities.
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digs 
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Posted 4/27/10

Yei wrote:


digs wrote:


Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

Everything the Soviet Union did was socialist. The Chinese government followed communist principals. You can say I have listen to "US indoctrination," but the facts in history show that socialism and communism are bad news. What each nation did aligned with their philosophy and most even openly named their country after it. Socialism correlates with big government, and big government always grows corrupt and hungry for more power. The idea of having the state essentially "own" all wealth and distribute it "fairly" is a terrible idea in my opinion. I agree with helping the poor, but I'm against owning everyone's wealth and spreading it around. You should be able to work hard, get an education, and reap financial benefit for making wise decisions.

The US indoctrination for many years has been towards socialism and communism. History shows that both philosophies are responsible for millions of murders. People like personal freedom, we don't need a massive government gaining all the power and dictating how we should live and who deserves to have wealth.


Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Communist government of China governed according to socialist and communist ideals.

Economically, socialism is almost the opposite of capitalism. Socialism advocates for state ownership of business and higher taxes on citizens. It's all about making people dependent on the government for everything. Socialist countries take over the healthcare system and lie to the populace by telling them that it's "free." Nothing is free, what the government does is force you to go through the medium of government for healthcare. They "pay" the bill, but in reality you are paying higher taxes for the service, so it isn't free or universal. Socialist countries run on the philosophy that private business should be small (if allowed at all), the state should have massive power and impose high taxes on its citizens. The rich pay vast amounts of their incomes, and the populace is dependent on the government for job security and healthcare. The poor are dependent on the government for aid and financial support.

Basically, Socialism is for
Larger Government
Higher Taxes
More Control Over the Citizens
Against Capitalism and for State Ownership of the Economy
Taking the Wealth from the Rich and Spreading it "Around"

Socialism is bad news and a very bad political philosophy in my opinion.


What you describe is a terrible type of government. Now let's review the basic principles of socialism:


The most basic principles of socialism simply say working people should be in charge of production and communities have to be in charge of their own lives (ex. they own the land they live on, they decide what type of economy to have). A good summary of it is simply the extension of democracy to the economy/industries and individual communities. The people collectively decide what should happen, to best suit their own lives. The Soviet Union was the exact opposite. People had no control over anything, they had no control over production, the economy, they owned no land, couldn't even pick where to live. It was a totalitarian state, the exact opposite of a socialist state. The same goes for China.

That's what the most basic principles of socialism are; extended democracy to the work place/production and communities, so people can decide their own fates. I think most people intuitively agree with socialism (real socialism, not the warped ideas they have in their heads), if the workers and communities were in charge of corporations, there wouldn't be any corporate tyranny anymore; and corporations would then just be institutions that do what best suits society and the people who work for them. I see it as simply real and total democracy and it eliminates big government, because the people will have almost complete control of their own communities.


Where do you get these basic principals of socialism from? I can't think of any socialist country or any kind of socialist party that actually advocates that. I can almost guarantee that all socialist countries have a larger government and an enslaved populace. Your ideals sound good and all, but that isn't socialism. All socialist parties I know advocate for higher taxes, bigger government, and less democracy in the form of governments expanding their control over the citizens. History and current events show that socialist parties advocate for higher taxes and more government, which is almost the opposite of what you described. The power doesn't go to individuals or communities, it goes to the government and individuals are robbed of economic freedom. Business are robbed of economic freedom, and many are robbed of financial freedom through higher taxes.
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10
Look this is can't spell for what-ever. Democracy's are can be even more life treating to the people of a country. That why the founding father of land set it up as a Republic. I sure do not want give me crowed to take over and make big decisions. If they live off of welfare they should not vote, if they get food stamps, or no home address By the way is your native tough french.
Yei
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

digs wrote:

Where do you get these basic principals of socialism from? I can't think of any socialist country or any kind of socialist party that actually advocates that. I can almost guarantee that all socialist countries have a larger government and an enslaved populace. Your ideals sound good and all, but that isn't socialism. All socialist parties I know advocate for higher taxes, bigger government, and less democracy in the form of governments expanding their control over the citizens. History and current events show that socialist parties advocate for higher taxes and more government, which is almost the opposite of what you described. The power doesn't go to individuals or communities, it goes to the government and individuals are robbed of economic freedom. Business are robbed of economic freedom, and many are robbed of financial freedom through higher taxes.


We shouldn't care what people/governments say. We should look up the facts.

If the Canadian government today claimed it was a fascism, would it make Canada a fascism? No, it doesn't matter what the state says, the reality is the reality. Socialism has already been defined for a long time now and people can't change the definition. If China and Russia and Cuba all claimed to be democracies and had official "Democratic Parties" in charge, does that change the definition of democracy? Would someone then be able to say to you, "no, democracy doesn't give power to the people, just look at China/Russia/Cuba." No, democracy is already defined, no matter what totalitarian states claim. So I can understand why people have bad ideas surrounding socialism when they look at all the states in the past that called themselves socialist, but the reasons for their quick failures and the fact that they tend to turn into totalitarian states is another story.

Socialism has already been defined as what I said it is, you should actually study what socialism is (there are various types, but the basic principles are what I said and they branch off from there), and that's how you should form your opinion on it. You can read Karl Marx's work, read basic socialist theory that's been around for centuries, simply look it up, it's well defined. If socialism had one absolutely basic principle, it's that working people be in charge of production. Socialism is how the first worker's unions started. People in Russia and China had absolutely no control over production, so they're not socialist on the most basic level.
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

Yei wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


Yei wrote:

Everything in the Soviet Union was socialist? China followed communist principles?

Can you tell me what socialism is? What are the basic principles?


USSR

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

I really dunno too much about socialism, but as I understand it.

- The government is generally larger, regulates everything, more controlling, tends to be a nanny state.
- Taxes are higher, so you have less money, you usually get more entitlments tho.
- It tends to be anti-business, anti self-reliance.
- Anti guns, weapons, military.
- Lots of govt spending;
- Taxpayer funded health care, qualities usually lower tho. cause its all about cost-efficiency instead of quality.


You know basic leftist ideals.


This proves my point exactly. And what digs and everyone else says also does. No one has any idea what socialism is. All your information on it comes from propaganda or what the indoctrinated American culture sees it as. And I can understand that, again, one century of intense indoctrination against it has strong effects on how people think.

The most basic principles of socialism simply say working people should be in charge of production and communities have to be in charge of their own lives (the land they live on, the local economy). A good summary of it is simply the extension of democracy to the economy/industries and individual communities. The people collectively decide what should happen, to best suit their own lives. The Soviet Union was the exact opposite. People had no control over anything, they had no control over production, the economy, they owned no land, couldn't even pick where to live. It was a totalitarian state, the exact opposite of a socialist state. The same goes for China.

That's what the most basic principles of socialism are; extended democracy to the work place/production and communities, so people can decide their own fates. I think most people intuitively agree with socialism (real socialism, not the warped ideas they have in their heads), if the workers and communities were in charge of corporations, there wouldn't be any corporate tyranny anymore; and corporations would then just be institutions that do what best suits society and the people who work for them. I see it as simply real and total democracy and it eliminates big government, because the people will have almost complete control of their own communities.


Not all socialist countries are democratic, china is socialist, russia is socialist. And there not democratic. Socialism covers a large area, not all socialism is democracy.

And corporate tyranny ? You don't have to buy their products, and you forget, without corporations, you wouldn't have that computer your typing on, or a house or apt, or power in your walls, there would be no tv, no internet, no cell phones, there would be no products at all.

Small business can't afford to open a 10+ million dollar factory (thats just the land and building), another 10 million dollars to buy the robots and equipment and still have money left over to buy components for the goods they want to manufacture wholesale. Only medium sized or large businesses can afford to do that, so without any corporations there is no products. might be a few products, but they would cost 20 times as much as they do now. and would be in short supply.

No wood for house, you have no home, no power, and that kills just about everything else. the government may or may not supply utilities, but who built the generators that actually produce the power, who manufactures the cable, who dug up the copper to make the cables, who manufactures the steel to build to poles to hold the cables. who manufactures the equipment to manufacture the steel. Who designed, tested and sold the electronics in the computers that regulate the power.

So all those things you take for granted on a daily basis, like electricity, running water, cell phones, tv, internet, cars, bikes, any just about everything else was manufactured by a corporation.

I mean of course there is corruption in busniess, but that's to be expected, corruption is human nature. there's corruption in everything including government, just look at china.

Businesses are the core foundation of a strong economy, small and large alike.

Although I have no real problems with what you just described, I just wanna be in change of my own life.
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Posted 4/27/10 , edited 4/27/10

Allhailodin wrote:

Not all socialist countries are democratic, china is socialist, russia is socialist. And there not democratic. Socialism covers a large area, not all socialism is democracy.

And corporate tyranny ? You don't have to buy their products, and you forget, without corporations, you wouldn't have that computer your typing on, or a house or apt, or power in your walls, there would be no tv, no internet, no cell phones, there would be no products at all.

Small business can't afford to open a 10+ million dollar factory (thats just the land and building), another 10 million dollars to buy the robots and equipment and still have money left over to buy components for the goods they want to manufacture wholesale. Only medium sized or large businesses can afford to do that, so without any corporations there is no products. might be a few products, but they would cost 20 times as much as they do now. and would be in short supply.

No wood for house, you have no home, no power, and that kills just about everything else. the government may or may not supply utilities, but who built the generators that actually produce the power, who manufactures the cable, who dug up the copper to make the cables, who manufactures the steel to build to poles to hold the cables. who manufactures the equipment to manufacture the steel. Who designed, tested and sold the electronics in the computers that regulate the power.

So all those things you take for granted on a daily basis, like electricity, running water, cell phones, tv, internet, cars, bikes, any just about everything else was manufactured by a corporation.

I mean of course there is corruption in busniess, but that's to be expected, corruption is human nature. there's corruption in everything including government, just look at china.

Businesses are the core foundation of a strong economy, small and large alike.



China and Russia were not really socialist. The most basic principle of socialism is that workers be in charge of production. That was not part of China or Russia, they were both totalitarian states, not socialist states.

Corporations (aka, private tyrannies) are another issue, I don't think we should discuss them now.
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Yei wrote:

China and Russia were not really socialist. The most basic principle of socialism is that workers be in charge of production. That was not part of China or Russia, they were both totalitarian states, not socialist states.

Corporations (aka, private tyrannies) are another issue, I don't think we should discuss them now.


Your description of socialism is fine with me, i just wanna be in charge of my own life and run my business my own way without having unnecessary, stupid, and heavily burdening regulations slammed down my throat.

But if the SU wasn't socialist why is it called USSR, instead of USCR ( Union of Soviet Communist Republics ) or USTR (Union of Soviet Totalitarian Republics), its specifically called USSR, the word socialist in in the name. Why then ?
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