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Opinion: Should Apes be on the Same Moral and legal Footing as Humans?
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Posted 10/4/09 , edited 10/4/09
Of course they should as should any sentient being. Of course that will likely never happen until humans get over their addiction to exceptionalism; ie the premise that humans are somehow by divine fiat given a special and exclusive place in creation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_exceptionalism
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Posted 10/4/09 , edited 10/4/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Apes are just as self awarer as humans are. There also able to understand right from wrong. So logically yes they should be. Those that think its a stupid question have no understanding of anything around them so give them no mind. There just shallow insignificant children with little to no education. I am tired of pulling my punches with people who do not have the slightest understand of what the ED stands for.


Actually this is a pretty stupid question. Anyone who has a basic understanding of what human laws are and what they do would realize that other apes do not need or want them, and it would actually be unethical to put them under the same laws as us.

First of all they are not considered citizens by any government, so they do not have to abide by any government's laws and are not protected by anything except animal rights laws (if they are present), they can't own property (nor do they have the desire to) or pay taxes or do any kind of productive labor without PETA jumping all over us about animal cruelty. Second, while they are intelligent, they aren't smart enough to even understand what a legal right is, or if they are then they are unable to communicate that information to us so we can only assume that they don't know what a legal right is, or know that they have any. Third, the only places where humans live among other apes are in labs and zoos, in which they have all the rights that they need, or in remote areas where few humans live and most likely don't make extensive contact with the other apes, since they are wild and untamed. Finally, since they are more driven by their primal instincts than we are (arguably), it would not be fair to put them under the restrictions of human laws, because if one of them goes berserk at the zoo due to some dumbass kid throwing stuff at them or whatever, then, in America at least, they could be charged for assault and would have to be tried by a jury of their peers, which would be other apes, whom I doubt would even understand what a court trial is or comprehend all of the legal terms thrown at them. Then you'd have to put them in jail, which would allow animal rights activists to jump all over the government for animal cruelty. There's millions of other scenarios like this in which it would be unfair to punish an animal (besides us) for acting on their instincts.

So no, putting them under the same laws as humans is pointless. The only reason why we have so many laws is because humans are materialistic and greedy, and the laws are there to restrict/promote those behaviors. Other apes have no desire for materialistic objects or worldly pleasures, so they are not motivated to work, obtain property, steal, rape, etc. As long as they have food, shelter, and other apes to hang out with, and they aren't being physically tortured, then they are happy, and basic animal rights laws provides all of this to them.

As for their moral standing, their animal rights and the fact that we don't breed and kill them for consumption basically puts them on the same level as us in that regard, based on what they want out of life (food, water, shelter, company), which is a lot less than what most humans want. When a chimp sends a petition to the government demanding that he and other chimps are given legal citizenship status, then this will be worth taking into consideration.
Posted 10/5/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:
So no, putting them under the same laws as humans is pointless. The only reason why we have so many laws is because humans are materialistic and greedy, and the laws are there to restrict/promote those behaviors. Other apes have no desire for materialistic objects or worldly pleasures, so they are not motivated to work, obtain property, steal, rape, etc. As long as they have food, shelter, and other apes to hang out with, and they aren't being physically tortured, then they are happy, and basic animal rights laws provides all of this to them.

I would also extend on this train of thought that the apes also have their own social structure and standings. After all we humans are like them in a sense that we too are social animals, with our own societies and statuses based on our own social structures and standings. The apes are also territorial, that they will defend their habitat where they hunt and gather for foods and waters.

However, that's also where our similarity ends. When we don't share the same standards and values than apes do. Whereas our society have laws that constitute basic human rights and freedoms, the animals like apes have no such concept of the written laws. While the apes don't have a system of institution that will teach them how to read and write.
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Posted 10/5/09
the topic title:
Should apes be on the same Moral and legal Footing as human beings?

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual? Also, how could morals and instinct be compared? Whether or not I'd give an opinion later, I still would like some clarification on these two questions. Any takers?
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Posted 10/5/09
Wouldn't that be admitting that apes are intellectually level to us?

I do not find this question reasonable.
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Posted 10/5/09 , edited 10/5/09

farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are.


Maybin wrote:

Wouldn't that be admitting that apes are intellectually level to us?


In some ways they are, and in some ways they even surpass us. It depends on what kind of intelligence you are referring to. Intelligence is more than simply knowing a lot of facts, although that is one form of it.
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Posted 10/5/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are
.

By this helpful definition, I can't imagine how it would be fair to hold apes to our morals with accompanying laws & penalties. I can't imagine one in a courtroom, or a classroom, or at the local Starbucks. All kidding aside, there have been too many incidents of the dangers of mixing a wild animal & human co-habitation. The chimp attack in back in March, I think, on the women who kept him as a treasured member of the family is one case in point. So, aside from humane treatment to them & their habitat, the rights would we supposedly be giving apes, raises the problem of how they would be monitored or enforced. It's not like there is an ape colony setting up house in the woods back of my house.
This may not be a question of living (humans & apes) among each other, but under what sort of scenario would it even be necessary for apes to have equal treatment or considerations as humankind?

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Posted 10/5/09

farmbird wrote:


Cuddlebuns wrote:


farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are
.

By this helpful definition, I can't imagine how it would be fair to hold apes to our morals with accompanying laws & penalties. I can't imagine one in a courtroom, or a classroom, or at the local Starbucks. All kidding aside, there have been too many incidents of the dangers of mixing a wild animal & human co-habitation. The chimp attack in back in March, I think, on the women who kept him as a treasured member of the family is one case in point. So, aside from humane treatment to them & their habitat, the rights would we supposedly be giving apes, raises the problem of how they would be monitored or enforced. It's not like there is an ape colony setting up house in the woods back of my house.
This may not be a question of living (humans & apes) among each other, but under what sort of scenario would it even be necessary for apes to have equal treatment or considerations as humankind?




It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.
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It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


I promise to look those up, but still, as family members, or co-workers? Have you personally had experience with any of the great apes, or interacted with one ? I haven't & I honestly don't know what I'd expect or how I'd feel or deal with it. Even if the apes can achieve such accomplishments, is it something they chose to do w/o the constant reward system, or if they did do it with that as payment for the job they perform, is it truly ethical do have them do it-- as it would be contrary to their normal behavior and inclinations? What about the potential for exploiting this particular work force?
OOPS! Now, we're talking rights for apes! I seem to have painted myself into a corner.........
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Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


farmbird wrote:


Cuddlebuns wrote:


farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are
.

By this helpful definition, I can't imagine how it would be fair to hold apes to our morals with accompanying laws & penalties. I can't imagine one in a courtroom, or a classroom, or at the local Starbucks. All kidding aside, there have been too many incidents of the dangers of mixing a wild animal & human co-habitation. The chimp attack in back in March, I think, on the women who kept him as a treasured member of the family is one case in point. So, aside from humane treatment to them & their habitat, the rights would we supposedly be giving apes, raises the problem of how they would be monitored or enforced. It's not like there is an ape colony setting up house in the woods back of my house.
This may not be a question of living (humans & apes) among each other, but under what sort of scenario would it even be necessary for apes to have equal treatment or considerations as humankind?




It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


apes would make great slaves...and sparring partners...but only a human would even discuss this insane possibility. I wander what the apes themselves think about this...or do they get a say? peace over war
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Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


the question is :

Why they can't be as advance as human?
When they'll evolve? Million years...?
The world haven't see any Apes in South Africa's forest evolving into something else from million years ago. To let you know, the jungle in south africa, Amazon, most likely unchanged from thousands of years ago. Although, I can't sure of it, like we can't sure of Apes evolution from million years ago
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Posted 10/6/09

JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


farmbird wrote:


Cuddlebuns wrote:


farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are
.

By this helpful definition, I can't imagine how it would be fair to hold apes to our morals with accompanying laws & penalties. I can't imagine one in a courtroom, or a classroom, or at the local Starbucks. All kidding aside, there have been too many incidents of the dangers of mixing a wild animal & human co-habitation. The chimp attack in back in March, I think, on the women who kept him as a treasured member of the family is one case in point. So, aside from humane treatment to them & their habitat, the rights would we supposedly be giving apes, raises the problem of how they would be monitored or enforced. It's not like there is an ape colony setting up house in the woods back of my house.
This may not be a question of living (humans & apes) among each other, but under what sort of scenario would it even be necessary for apes to have equal treatment or considerations as humankind?




It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


apes would make great slaves...and sparring partners...but only a human would even discuss this insane possibility. I wander what the apes themselves think about this...or do they get a say? peace over war


Well you can always ask them...! Do not forget they understand us, and they can communicate with us as well. Who knows they might wanna go to school and stuff you never no.
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


the question is :

Why they can't be as advance as human?
When they'll evolve? Million years...?
The world haven't see any Apes in South Africa's forest evolving into something else from million years ago. To let you know, the jungle in south africa, Amazon, most likely unchanged from thousands of years ago. Although, I can't sure of it, like we can't sure of Apes evolution from million years ago


You mistake the apes from millions of years ago, are not the the modern apes. 'The look different, because they have changed over time.
'there just as evolved as everything else on earth including us. We just took a different road then they did.

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Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

the question is :

Why they can't be as advance as human?
When they'll evolve? Million years...?
The world haven't see any Apes in South Africa's forest evolving into something else from million years ago. To let you know, the jungle in south africa, Amazon, most likely unchanged from thousands of years ago. Although, I can't sure of it, like we can't sure of Apes evolution from million years ago


You mistake the apes from millions of years ago, are not the the modern apes. 'The look different, because they have changed over time.
'there just as evolved as everything else on earth including us. We just took a different road then they did.



And what kind of road that we took from evolution process? Why only Apes to Humans? Not other creatures........?
Where is Missing Links, btw. I've debated with 3 of you in evolution thread, but doesn't have any single answer.
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

the question is :

Why they can't be as advance as human?
When they'll evolve? Million years...?
The world haven't see any Apes in South Africa's forest evolving into something else from million years ago. To let you know, the jungle in south africa, Amazon, most likely unchanged from thousands of years ago. Although, I can't sure of it, like we can't sure of Apes evolution from million years ago


You mistake the apes from millions of years ago, are not the the modern apes. 'The look different, because they have changed over time.
'there just as evolved as everything else on earth including us. We just took a different road then they did.



And what kind of road that we took from evolution process? Why only Apes to Humans? Not other creatures........?
Where is Missing Links, btw. I've debated with 3 of you in evolution thread, but doesn't have any single answer.


DO you think we are the only human like race on earth? No there other human like critters on earth, but having a bigger brain does not always mean you will out live the other critters. As an example neanderthals had bigger brains that Humans, yet Neanderthals died out Humans did not. Ever think apes that clime trees better had a better chance to survive than apes that sucked at climbing. SO where they are the apes that climb the trees like apes, got to pass on the DNA and keep there kind going, as others who did not climb so well died off.


that is how it works. at one time Homo apes and other apes split off from each other one moved to flatter lands where walking up right and eating meat was more beneficial than being able to climb a tree at great speed. (eating meat allowed for are brains to grow larger.)
the other apes lived where climbing trees and eating plants most of the time work out better for them in there environment as survival goes.

Survival is the key, if there traits do not aid them to survive they die off, and others will take there place.

do you know what happens wen you keep breeding with a certain type?
You bread cat with longer tails and keep doing that. Later you have cats with very LONG Tails.

Human ladies find that they like men who are hairless, they start mating with hairless men, later there be no hairy men, Hairless will be a norm for men.


On another note, if you go down on the front page still just a little bit you see my evolution thread where I explain in detail all about evolution.
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