First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
Opinion: Should Apes be on the Same Moral and legal Footing as Humans?
53941 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
56 / F / Midwest, rural Am...
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


the question is :

Why they can't be as advance as human?
When they'll evolve? Million years...?
The world haven't see any Apes in South Africa's forest evolving into something else from million years ago. To let you know, the jungle in south africa, Amazon, most likely unchanged from thousands of years ago. Although, I can't sure of it, like we can't sure of Apes evolution from million years ago


You mistake the apes from millions of years ago, are not the the modern apes. 'The look different, because they have changed over time.
'there just as evolved as everything else on earth including us. We just took a different road then they did.




Say, wouldn't that link to the article on the new archeological find which pre-dates Lucy be useful here? I thought I remember the article stating the find may be the ancestor to both apes and man. I think we got to that article from the "Discussion of theories on Evolution" & there was this site for info-- http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091001/ap_on_sc/us_sci_before_lucy
10652 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F / Indonesia Raya
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

DO you think we are the only human like race on earth? No there other human like critters on earth, but having a bigger brain does not always mean you will out live the other critters. As an example neanderthals had bigger brains that Humans, yet Neanderthals died out Humans did not. Ever think apes that clime trees better had a better chance to survive than apes that sucked at climbing. SO where they are the apes that climb the trees like apes, got to pass on the DNA and keep there kind going, as others who did not climb so well died off.


that is how it works. at one time Homo apes and other apes split off from each other one moved to flatter lands where walking up right and eating meat was more beneficial than being able to climb a tree at great speed. (eating meat allowed for are brains to grow larger.)
the other apes lived where climbing trees and eating plants most of the time work out better for them in there environment as survival goes.

Survival is the key, if there traits do not aid them to survive they die off, and others will take there place.

do you know what happens wen you keep breeding with a certain type?
You bread cat with longer tails and keep doing that. Later you have cats with very LONG Tails.

Human ladies find that they like men who are hairless, they start mating with hairless men, later there be no hairy men, Hairless will be a norm for men.



It's not the matter 'the bigger the better'. It's about how the quality in their and our brain. How is the function, how the thinking process that make big differences in both species and why only humanity have that 'survival' ? Does the other species in land, air and water, can't have that 'survival' that makes we are the king of the world that able to control the world..... Well, don't mention about alien, ok?

The evolution in animal is something I can agree on. But the difference between animal and human are brains and capability to improving their thinking process at different level, something animal can't do it. They just cando simple tasks as you said, but not as complicated as human beings.
17888 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
34 / M / Small Wooded town...
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

DO you think we are the only human like race on earth? No there other human like critters on earth, but having a bigger brain does not always mean you will out live the other critters. As an example neanderthals had bigger brains that Humans, yet Neanderthals died out Humans did not. Ever think apes that clime trees better had a better chance to survive than apes that sucked at climbing. SO where they are the apes that climb the trees like apes, got to pass on the DNA and keep there kind going, as others who did not climb so well died off.


that is how it works. at one time Homo apes and other apes split off from each other one moved to flatter lands where walking up right and eating meat was more beneficial than being able to climb a tree at great speed. (eating meat allowed for are brains to grow larger.)
the other apes lived where climbing trees and eating plants most of the time work out better for them in there environment as survival goes.

Survival is the key, if there traits do not aid them to survive they die off, and others will take there place.

do you know what happens wen you keep breeding with a certain type?
You bread cat with longer tails and keep doing that. Later you have cats with very LONG Tails.

Human ladies find that they like men who are hairless, they start mating with hairless men, later there be no hairy men, Hairless will be a norm for men.



It's not the matter 'the bigger the better'. It's about how the quality in their and our brain. How is the function, how the thinking process that make big differences in both species and why only humanity have that 'survival' ? Does the other species in land, air and water, can't have that 'survival' that makes we are the king of the world that able to control the world..... Well, don't mention about alien, ok?

The evolution in animal is something I can agree on. But the difference between animal and human are brains and capability to improving their thinking process at different level, something animal can't do it. They just cando simple tasks as you said, but not as complicated as human beings.


No your creating a divider that does not really exist. for one are brain matter is made of the same stuff as all the other animals brains, we just developed certain parts of are brain more than other parts, do to the way are neck is connected to are head.
Go to my evolution thread if you wanna debate this. I be happy to give you a very long explanation for it. But this thread is not about evolution.



10652 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F / Indonesia Raya
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

No your creating a divider that does not really exist. for one are brain matter is made of the same stuff as all the other animals brains, we just developed certain parts of are brain more than other parts, do to the way are neck is connected to are head.
Go to my evolution thread if you wanna debate this. I be happy to give you a very long explanation for it. But this thread is not about evolution.


I've gone to your 2 evolution thread and we had long argument. But you can't give me evidence about brain.

According to you, Apes(we) were developed certain parts. Therefore, why only Apes... not other animal as well, so we can have multiple species at same level of intelligent to managing the world so not contaminated like now.
Does this even related to chance of survival? Brains are in the inner part of one beings, not the outside part, i.e appearance.

Btw, mind to post me the link to your evolution thread if you don't want to continue it here?
Well, I've been gone there, though.
17888 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
34 / M / Small Wooded town...
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

No your creating a divider that does not really exist. for one are brain matter is made of the same stuff as all the other animals brains, we just developed certain parts of are brain more than other parts, do to the way are neck is connected to are head.
Go to my evolution thread if you wanna debate this. I be happy to give you a very long explanation for it. But this thread is not about evolution.


I've gone to your 2 evolution thread and we had long argument. But you can't give me evidence about brain.

According to you, Apes(we) were developed certain parts. Therefore, why only Apes... not other animal as well, so we can have multiple species at same level of intelligent to managing the world so not contaminated like now.
Does this even related to chance of survival? Brains are in the inner part of one beings, not the outside part, i.e appearance.

Btw, mind to post me the link to your evolution thread if you don't want to continue it here?
Well, I've been gone there, though.


My evolution thread is still on the front page, not hard for you to go click on, as for the brain I can explain the inner workings of the brain to you as well. I just happen to have my old college books with me. But not here go down to the evolution thread, Its on the front page for crying out loud.
10652 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F / Indonesia Raya
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

My evolution thread is still on the front page, not hard for you to go click on, as for the brain I can explain the inner workings of the brain to you as well. I just happen to have my old college books with me. But not here go down to the evolution thread, Its on the front page for crying out loud.


Because you have many thread just to make others believe to this baldie's theory called Darwin.
Do you think all Atheist believe in evolution? I have many Atheist friends and they said it's just a theory that monkeys would believe and accept so they can have equal rights, lol. They said not me...
5231 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / Mammago Garage, Y...
Offline
Posted 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

I have many Atheist friends and they said it's just a theory that monkeys would believe and accept so they can have equal rights, lol.


So if they don't believe in naturalism, and they don't believe a divine being created us, then how do they think we got here?
10652 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F / Indonesia Raya
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:

I have many Atheist friends and they said it's just a theory that monkeys would believe and accept so they can have equal rights, lol.


So if they don't believe in naturalism, and they don't believe a divine being created us, then how do they think we got here?


they do believe in Naturalism, Natural selection and stuff. They said we were just created by nature. As they also believe this earth and whole universe just happened like that. No creator involved.
5231 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / Mammago Garage, Y...
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

they do believe in Naturalism, Natural selection and stuff. They said we were just created by nature. As they also believe this earth and whole universe just happened like that. No creator involved.


So they believe the universe, the Earth, and everything on it just appeared out of nowhere one day, and things have stayed the same since then? Or do they believe that it was a gradual process?
10652 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
18 / F / Indonesia Raya
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:

So they believe the universe, the Earth, and everything on it just appeared out of nowhere one day, and things have stayed the same since then? Or do they believe that it was a gradual process?


Maybe they believe in gradual process and also they believe the universe created its own universe and things going on as nature desired. At least that's what I got from them.
5231 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / Mammago Garage, Y...
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


Even if they are able to function in our society, they clearly have no desire to do so. It is unethical to force a chimp to work at McDonalds for a living when you could just release it into the wild and it can get everything it wants from there. There's no point in making them a part of our society if they don't want to be. There's also the huge issue of whether or not people would be comfortable with a chimp preparing and serving them burgers, because most people do not know anything about them or what they're capable of, so they would most likely be disgusted by it, and they would just end up being another group that would be discriminated against, possibly more so than any other group in history. Like I said, until they start demanding citizenship, property, and representation in our government, then there's no reason to make them a part of our society.
17888 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
34 / M / Small Wooded town...
Offline
Posted 10/7/09 , edited 10/7/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


Even if they are able to function in our society, they clearly have no desire to do so. It is unethical to force a chimp to work at McDonalds for a living when you could just release it into the wild and it can get everything it wants from there. There's no point in making them a part of our society if they don't want to be. There's also the huge issue of whether or not people would be comfortable with a chimp preparing and serving them burgers, because most people do not know anything about them or what they're capable of, so they would most likely be disgusted by it, and they would just end up being another group that would be discriminated against, possibly more so than any other group in history. Like I said, until they start demanding citizenship, property, and representation in our government, then there's no reason to make them a part of our society.


I turn that right back at you.. If a kid lived in the woods all his life, and did not know of towns, or any form of technology, nor ever had learn to speak. Would he not be given the chance to see the other side and choose for him self. the Ape might just like the idea, but your giving him a one way ticket back to the jungle without knowing what he really wants. Your not letting them have a choice. Your not thinking of them and what they want , your thinking of what you want for them. I am saying let them know of the world, teach them to so we can communicate then ask them what they want.

4302 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
forgot where
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


farmbird wrote:


Cuddlebuns wrote:


farmbird wrote:

First, I want to know how human morels can be compared to animal instinct. Humans may often act like animals, but is there any indication the ape behavior, or any animals' actions are anything more than instinctual?


I would say that there is a distinct line between instinct and morality. For example, human males have the instinctual desire to have as many mates as possible, but many acknowledge that having sex with tons of different people is not morally sound. The ones who think that way do so because of religious morals, health reasons, or both. Humans also have the instinctive desire to be greedy and take as much for themselves as possible, but many realize that this is also immoral and do what they can to help those who are less fortunate.

However, many of our behaviors are driven by instinct. We pursue wealth because we are materialistic and greedy (by "we" I mean in general, not necessarily every single human), we pursue the opposite (or same) sex because we are horny. We depend on other humans because we are social animals. So yes many of our actions are driven by instinct, but certain actions are considered immoral by certain people, depending on where you are in the world. But not all of our actions are determined solely by instinct, personality plays a role as well. Going back to male "urges," an outgoing/aggressive guy is more prone to give in to those urges and try to have as much sex as possible, while a more timid guy would be reluctant to act on those instincts even though he wants to have sex just as much as the outgoing guy.

Sorry if my focus on sexuality is inappropriate, but it's the first example that came to mind, most likely because I'm a guy.




Also, how could morals and instinct be compared?


Instinct is the main force that drives most of our actions, morality addresses how ethically sound those actions are
.

By this helpful definition, I can't imagine how it would be fair to hold apes to our morals with accompanying laws & penalties. I can't imagine one in a courtroom, or a classroom, or at the local Starbucks. All kidding aside, there have been too many incidents of the dangers of mixing a wild animal & human co-habitation. The chimp attack in back in March, I think, on the women who kept him as a treasured member of the family is one case in point. So, aside from humane treatment to them & their habitat, the rights would we supposedly be giving apes, raises the problem of how they would be monitored or enforced. It's not like there is an ape colony setting up house in the woods back of my house.
This may not be a question of living (humans & apes) among each other, but under what sort of scenario would it even be necessary for apes to have equal treatment or considerations as humankind?




It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


apes would make great slaves...and sparring partners...but only a human would even discuss this insane possibility. I wander what the apes themselves think about this...or do they get a say? peace over war


Well you can always ask them...! Do not forget they understand us, and they can communicate with us as well. Who knows they might wanna go to school and stuff you never no.


but what do they have to offer the human race? i say slaves and experiments are the only useful things that will become of them...ever disected a monkey b4? we could learn a lot...or we could stick them in extreme environments and see how last they long b4 they die...no need to worry about ethics if thier not human
we can also use them for stem cell research...skin replacements...organ doners...blood doners? the possibilities are endless!!!
they can even teach us how to fight!!
this thread is ingenious! i never thought of it this way...wow...this is exciting peace over war
4302 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
forgot where
Offline
Posted 10/7/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

It has been shown that apes are at the level where they can learn and communicate with human/ There able to read, there even able to do simple jobs, like stocking a store, or taking orders at your local burger king. At that A 5 year old bonobo chimp has a huge advantage over humans in short term memory, allowing them to do some task better than Humans. In all seriousness your more likely to be attacked by your pet dog then a Ape that you treat as part of the family.
As I do not like blowing hot air without backing up my statements I know will post some evidence for what I had to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXHB60tweBQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK1-KL6sq_Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh8gfIcjQNY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Dhc2zePJFE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjLRgosNf_Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgOW9LnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIAoJsS9Ix8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRM7vTrIIis&feature=related

There no way they would not have the brain power needed to work a fast food place, or as a MIG welder.


Even if they are able to function in our society, they clearly have no desire to do so. It is unethical to force a chimp to work at McDonalds for a living when you could just release it into the wild and it can get everything it wants from there. There's no point in making them a part of our society if they don't want to be. There's also the huge issue of whether or not people would be comfortable with a chimp preparing and serving them burgers, because most people do not know anything about them or what they're capable of, so they would most likely be disgusted by it, and they would just end up being another group that would be discriminated against, possibly more so than any other group in history. Like I said, until they start demanding citizenship, property, and representation in our government, then there's no reason to make them a part of our society.


who said he had to treat them like humans though? why not make them slaves? use them for scientific experiements- disreguarding ethics.

use them for stem cell research, blood and organ doners, give them simply jobs with NO pay. we can teach them how to fight, and they can teach us in return.

dont u see the genious of it all? We dont have to put them under our laws...we can just make new laws...Every human is created equal...but it says nothing about animals. We can also use them to deterrent crime. Have robbers beat, kill, rape, ect. monkeys instead of humans.

use apes as bait to catch hard core criminals. Have an ape walking down the street with gold and money hanging every where.

do u see where im going with this? We could destroy racism. We will just displace racism on the monkeys-specisms. Let them be beat/discriminated against in place of humans. Use them as shields in a gun fight...or punching bags in a martial arts dojo....can u feel the possibilities?

who ever came up with this thread is a genious.. they can replace technology- such as robots...if they get out of hand we can just shoot them- they are terrible at gun fights- no hand eye cordination...the possibilities r endless peace over war
5231 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
22 / M / Mammago Garage, Y...
Offline
Posted 10/7/09 , edited 10/7/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


I turn that right back at you.. If a kid lived in the woods all his life, and did not know of towns, or any form of technology, nor ever had learn to speak. Would he not be given the chance to see the other side and choose for him self. the Ape might just like the idea, but your giving him a one way ticket back to the jungle without knowing what he really wants. Your not letting them have a choice. Your not thinking of them and what they want , your thinking of what you want for them. I am saying let them know of the world, teach them to so we can communicate then ask them what they want.



As for the kid, he might not want to be a part of our society either, but since he is human and humans are materialistic, then chances are that once he knows what it's like to have things then he will want more. And he won't have to worry about intense discrimination because he's human. Apes, as far as we know, are nowhere near as materialistic as we are, so they would have no interest in being a part of a society that advocates obtaining as many material possessions as you can.


Plenty of apes have lived in captivity among humans for at least a hundred years, right? And during that time many of them have been taught to communicate and learned the ways of our society, right? So if any of them had ever had the desire to be a part of our society, to own property, or to be represented in our government, don't you think one would have told their trainer/handler and it would have been all over the news? It's not very wise to assume that just because they are biologically similar to us that they want the same things out of life as us. Have you ever heard of an ape that wasn't just satisfied with having food, shelter, and social interaction? Have you ever thought about how horribly they would be treated if they were integrated into our society? Have you ever thought about nearly impossible it would be to convince the masses that they should be a part of our society? If they're really that smart then they should realize how horrible their lives would become if they were a part of our society. Just look at JJT2's post that I quoted below this, I'm sure that humans would treat apes that way if they were a part of our society. Do you think they really want to live like this?:



JJT2 wrote:

who said he had to treat them like humans though? why not make them slaves? use them for scientific experiements- disreguarding ethics.

use them for stem cell research, blood and organ doners, give them simply jobs with NO pay. we can teach them how to fight, and they can teach us in return.

dont u see the genious of it all? We dont have to put them under our laws...we can just make new laws...Every human is created equal...but it says nothing about animals. We can also use them to deterrent crime. Have robbers beat, kill, rape, ect. monkeys instead of humans.

use apes as bait to catch hard core criminals. Have an ape walking down the street with gold and money hanging every where.

do u see where im going with this? We could destroy racism. We will just displace racism on the monkeys-specisms. Let them be beat/discriminated against in place of humans. Use them as shields in a gun fight...or punching bags in a martial arts dojo....can u feel the possibilities?

who ever came up with this thread is a genious.. they can replace technology- such as robots...if they get out of hand we can just shoot them- they are terrible at gun fights- no hand eye cordination...the possibilities r endless peace over war


There's a few problems: in most industrialized nations there's these little things called animal rights laws that make it illegal to treat them in the ways you mentioned. And, in America at least, slavery is illegal, and the 13th Amendment doesn't specifically mention humans. Also, not all of us are as heartless and inconsiderate of the well-being of other animals as you are. If you really want you can capture a bunch of monkeys and enslave them and put them to work on your plantation and beat them all day. Just be aware that it won't take long for animal rights activists to find you and slowly torture you to death.

It would not destroy racism, people would just start hating other races AND apes. By that logic, sexism should have ended once slaves were brought over to America, but people are definitely capable of hating and discriminating against more than one group.

I hope you were just joking about this. If not then humanity has become even more gruesome and savage to me, since I'm sure there are plenty others who think the same way.
First  Prev  1  2  3  4  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.