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Holocaust Denial
Yei
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09
This goes for both the Nazi and Japanese Holocausts, what do people hope to achieve by denying they happened?

I had a big argument with a Holocaust-denier in school today, and I still can't understand what the point of doing it is. So they don't have to feel sorry for the people that died?
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Posted 10/6/09
well personally i think that we shouldnt simply deny it but keep that in mind and learn from it..................(woohh...i sound intiligent)
Posted 10/6/09
There's many way to answer this topic.

Let explain the holocaust of Nazi > Jews. I can say:
#1: It is a holocaust because Jews were the main target. Jews are to be captured and put in hard labor, and later face punishment and execution.
#2: Anti-Religious/Anti-Jewish/Anti-Holocaust might say that the Jews were lieing about the holocaust. It just to make them feel sad. Iran's president said that the holocaust didn't happen and its just a fact to make Israel in the Middle East. People said there are records of the holocaust and that Jews were killed.
#3: We could say that 6 million Jews weren't actually "killed." What about starvation? Does that count as a massacre and a holocaust? There's so much to talk about, I might as well say this...

People who deny the holocaust either denies: 1) That the holocaust does not exist. 2) That the holocaust is just a fake history to make us feel sympathy for Jews 3) That it wasn't a holocaust, it was diseases and starvation that kill 4) That 6 million Jews weren't killed; less than 6 millions Jews were killed, and there are also non-Jewish people who get killed. There more...but I don't want to post more.

Remember - I believed people at most, deny holocaust because of "6 million Jewish are killed." If you think they are wrong that 6 million Jewish are killed, then it brought up accusation. Deniers at most, don't deny the whole holocaust that it didn't exist. We should already have some evidences.

So you had an argument with a holocaust denier? Its best to tell him why does he deny that the holocaust happen, or does he deny certain parts of the holocaust history? (camp, death, location, torture, etc. etc. + Interesting for me to hear what you two were actually talking about). We teenagers and young adults do not have the brain to know whether the holocaust exist or not. Of course! We born somewhere in the 1970+, not before World War 2. He will either believe the holocaust exist, or he will not believe that it exist (unless he disagree with certain part). If he disagree with the holocaust and no one told him to disagree, then he is making his own fact, and that's like saying you won't believe that 2 + 2 = 4....although this is a poor example.

They don't believe achieve anything for denying a holocaust. We don't achieve much for understanding the holocaust, except we get in to an idea that many people know the holocaust really exist than those who deny it exist. Time to go shopping grocery.
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Posted 10/6/09
What people hope to achieve by spreading their beliefs of holocaust denial, or as they like to call it, holocaust revisionism is to 'inform' people that the event is just a hoax created by the Jews, and use it to advance in all sorts of areas at the expense of other people. Such as them getting free land from the United Nations because of them not having a country of their own and what not.

A popular argument for the holocaust denial is that the allied countries against Nazi Germany told myths to demonize the Nazis and make them look way more evil then they actually were. Others even say that literary documents written in that period of time such as the Diary of Anne Frank were fabricated. There are more, but they're all long-shots. The proof that the Holocaust did in fact happen is just way too overwhelming, although I would like to see more thoughts on someone who believes it didn't happen. Could make for a good debate or more like a slaughter, possibly getting jumped by every other forum dweller here.
Yei
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Posted 10/6/09

GDXTom wrote:

There's many way to answer this topic.

Let explain the holocaust of Nazi > Jews. I can say:
#1: It is a holocaust because Jews were the main target. Jews are to be captured and put in hard labor, and later face punishment and execution.
#2: Anti-Religious/Anti-Jewish/Anti-Holocaust might say that the Jews were lieing about the holocaust. It just to make them feel sad. Iran's president said that the holocaust didn't happen and its just a fact to make Israel in the Middle East. People said there are records of the holocaust and that Jews were killed.
#3: We could say that 6 million Jews weren't actually "killed." What about starvation? Does that count as a massacre and a holocaust? There's so much to talk about, I might as well say this...

People who deny the holocaust either denies: 1) That the holocaust does not exist. 2) That the holocaust is just a fake history to make us feel sympathy for Jews 3) That it wasn't a holocaust, it was diseases and starvation that kill 4) That 6 million Jews weren't killed; less than 6 millions Jews were killed, and there are also non-Jewish people who get killed. There more...but I don't want to post more.

Remember - I believed people at most, deny holocaust because of "6 million Jewish are killed." If you think they are wrong that 6 million Jewish are killed, then it brought up accusation. Deniers at most, don't deny the whole holocaust that it didn't exist. We should already have some evidences.

So you had an argument with a holocaust denier? Its best to tell him why does he deny that the holocaust happen, or does he deny certain parts of the holocaust history? (camp, death, location, torture, etc. etc. + Interesting for me to hear what you two were actually talking about). We teenagers and young adults do not have the brain to know whether the holocaust exist or not. Of course! We born somewhere in the 1970+, not before World War 2. He will either believe the holocaust exist, or he will not believe that it exist (unless he disagree with certain part). If he disagree with the holocaust and no one told him to disagree, then he is making his own fact, and that's like saying you won't believe that 2 + 2 = 4....although this is a poor example.

They don't believe achieve anything for denying a holocaust. We don't achieve much for understanding the holocaust, except we get in to an idea that many people know the holocaust really exist than those who deny it exist. Time to go shopping grocery.


In my world issues class we were talking about Ahmedinajad and one Arab kid was saying he was right about the Holocaust never happening. Then he starts talking about Israel and Palestine and the usual illogical Holocaust-denier crap.

What do you mean us teenagers don't have the brain to know whether the Holocaust happened? Look, the Holocaust happened, there's no doubt about that. And 11 million people were killed, including 6 million Jews. This is basic, well-recorded history.

People who deny the Nazi Holocaust are usually anti-Semites, and the only reason they have a problem with it is because 6 million Jews died. And they hate Jews so much, they don't want people to have sympathy for them, which is just a stupid reason to deny absolute fact. Another one of the stupider reasons is Israel/Palestine, which is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it happened or not. People have used the Holocaust as an excuse for some things, and the Holocaust did lead to the creation of Israel, but those ideas are irrelevant and don't disprove anything. I don't understand the logic there, it's like saying 9/11 never happened because the US used it as an excuse to go into Iraq.

I don't believe some people just honestly don't believe it happened and decided to deny all the facts on their own. There's always something else behind it, like antisemitism or hate for Israel.
Posted 10/6/09
that kind of dogmatism is unacceptable but people pushing others into saying that its happened (which it did) r just as bad as those who say it didnt happen
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09
GDXTOM very good answer Yei I am sorry thats an opinion you stated based off of nothing how do you know everyone denies the holocaust is an anti-semite? It even shocks me that you would even throw that in people dont deny it because they hate jews some of them deny it due to research and they expose something that didnt add up. They spoke up about it and got locked away. Scientists of the like sitting in jail just for having a different opinion. Now why would they waste their time doing that if they knew they were just going to get jailed.

If your not going to have a debate about the holocaust without tossing anti-semitism in the mix and jailing people then how can you say what you say is absolute truth and there will be no further research? I believe the holocaust did happen of course but I am not going to attack anyone for denying it thats their opinion leave them be. People deny Jesus and many other things but it seems like this one event if you have a difference of opinion people tend to act irrational.
Yei
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09

drizza wrote:

GDXTOM very good answer Yei I am sorry thats an opinion you stated based off of nothing how do you know everyone denies the holocaust is an anti-semite? It even shocks me that you would even throw that in people dont deny it because they hate jews some of them deny it due to research and they expose something that didnt add up. They spoke up about it and got locked away. Scientists of the like sitting in jail just for having a different opinion. Now why would they waste their time doing that if they knew they were just going to get jailed.

If your not going to have a debate about the holocaust without tossing anti-semitism in the mix and jailing people then how can you say what you say is absolute truth and there will be no further research? I believe the holocaust did happen of course but I am not going to attack anyone for denying it thats their opinion leave them be. People deny Jesus and many other things but it seems like this one event if you have a difference of opinion people tend to act irrational.


I didn't say everyone who denies the Holocaust is an anti-Semite. But antisemitism and Holocaust denial go hand-in-hand.

Denying a religious figure that existed over 2000 years ago is alot different than denying recent well-documented history. If someone denies that WW2 happened, that's an interesting opinion, but we already know for a fact that it happened. You can make ridiculous claims like that, but recent history is clear.

And out of all the the events in recent history, the Holocaust is the one people seem to have the biggest problem accepting. What I want to know is where did the first "legitimate" arguments against what the Nazis did come from? I think it's pretty obvious the main reason is antisemitism and Israel.

What aspects of it do you think are questionable? The number of people killed is the only real thing I've seen people argue. Who was killed, how they were killed and why is obviously not debatable.
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Posted 10/6/09

Yei wrote:


GDXTom wrote:

There's many way to answer this topic.

Let explain the holocaust of Nazi > Jews. I can say:

#2: Anti-Religious/Anti-Jewish/Anti-Holocaust might say that the Jews were lieing about the holocaust. It just to make them feel sad. Iran's president said that the holocaust didn't happen and its just a fact to make Israel in the Middle East. People said there are records of the holocaust and that Jews were killed.

2) That the holocaust is just a fake history to make us feel sympathy for Jews 3)

Deniers at most, don't deny the whole holocaust that it didn't exist. We should already have some evidences.


Another one of the stupider reasons is Israel/Palestine, which is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it happened or not. People have used the Holocaust as an excuse for some things, and the Holocaust did lead to the creation of Israel, but those ideas are irrelevant and don't disprove anything.


It just like GDXTom said, which I highlighted it.
Unfortunately, some people really use that stupidest reasons to do whatever they want in Palestine. And the worse is when the higher politics used it too. When Netanyahu speaks in UN previous meeting, he said 'Is it a lie?', well it's not a lie. But hey, Palestinian people never did that to your people.

"We had felt the pain, so let's satisfy ourselves (By making pain to others, in this case Palestine)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6tyTSK6BjM
Yei
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Posted 10/6/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:


GDXTom wrote:

There's many way to answer this topic.

Let explain the holocaust of Nazi > Jews. I can say:

#2: Anti-Religious/Anti-Jewish/Anti-Holocaust might say that the Jews were lieing about the holocaust. It just to make them feel sad. Iran's president said that the holocaust didn't happen and its just a fact to make Israel in the Middle East. People said there are records of the holocaust and that Jews were killed.

2) That the holocaust is just a fake history to make us feel sympathy for Jews 3)

Deniers at most, don't deny the whole holocaust that it didn't exist. We should already have some evidences.


Another one of the stupider reasons is Israel/Palestine, which is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it happened or not. People have used the Holocaust as an excuse for some things, and the Holocaust did lead to the creation of Israel, but those ideas are irrelevant and don't disprove anything.


It just like GDXTom said, which I highlighted it.
Unfortunately, some people really use that stupidest reasons to do whatever they want in Palestine. And the worse is when the higher politics used it too. When Netanyahu speaks in UN previous meeting, he said 'Is it a lie?', well it's not a lie. But hey, Palestinian people never did that to your people.

"We had felt the pain, so let's satisfy ourselves (By making pain to others, in this case Palestine)"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6tyTSK6BjM


Ok but this is very irrelevant. We're talking about why people deny that the Holocaust happened, the Israel/Palestine conflict is a separate issue.
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Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09
I believe there was a holocaust but not in the context I was taught. I dont feel like I am ready to debate it right now because I am still not confident that everything I read is true. I am still researching and asking questions. When I have everything down I still wont post what I need to say because people tends to just get overly sensitive and angry if you have a different view even if you present it in a non anti-semtic way. I agree with Zane if I open my mouth many people will just jump on me rather then have a sensible debate. Back to to what GDX said the issue is the Israel creation, the amount of Jews killed, and some scientists who researched it said some of the jews werent even executed how we were told they were. I wont go into further detail because like I said I am still new to this information. It is important to understand the past to find out why things are the way they are today.
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Posted 10/6/09

Yei wrote:

Ok but this is very irrelevant. We're talking about why people deny that the Holocaust happened, the Israel/Palestine conflict is a separate issue.


Sadly, Israel making this irrelevant things to get approval from Europe nations and America. Especially, German.
I think Ahmadinejad also believe Holocaust happened, as we also don't deny this tragedy. However, this is political reasons to shake the ideology and actions of what Israel doing right now. Physiological Warfare always being played.

It's amusing whenever Ahmadinejad, a president from a single country in middle-east said it, every leader in Europe and America condemn him and Iran. It looks like they've being ordered to do it.
Posted 10/6/09

drizza wrote:

I believe there was a holocaust but not in the context I was taught. I dont feel like I am ready to debate it right now because I am still not confident that everything I read is true. I am still researching and asking questions. When I have everything down I still wont post what I need to say because people tends to just get overly sensitive and angry if you have a different view even if you present it in a non anti-semtic way. I agree with Zane if I open my mouth many people will just jump on me rather then have a sensible debate. Back to to what GDX said the issue is the Israel creation, the amount of Jews killed, and some scientists who researched it said some of the jews werent even executed how we were told they were. I wont go into further detail because like I said I am still new to this information. It is important to understand the past to find out why things are the way they are today.


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Yei wrote:

Ok but this is very irrelevant. We're talking about why people deny that the Holocaust happened, the Israel/Palestine conflict is a separate issue.


Sadly, Israel making this irrelevant things to get approval from Europe nations and America. Especially, German.
I think Ahmadinejad also believe Holocaust happened, as we also don't deny this tragedy. However, this is political reasons to shake the ideology and actions of what Israel doing right now. Physiological Warfare always being played.

It's amusing whenever Ahmadinejad, a president from a single country in middle-east said it, every leader in Europe and America condemn him and Iran. It looks like they've being ordered to do it.

When the two of you are done playing soundbite politicians with your comments based on comic strips, I have here a 575 pages long report based on first hand witnesses and victims regarding the incident in Gaza:http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf

It's based on a "United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict" conducted by the United Nations Human Rights Council: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15308

If you're done fooling around, then it's time for you to get seriously up to pace. Otherwise I'm not going to waste my time and effort doing your study for you, when I've got better things to do.
Posted 10/6/09 , edited 10/6/09

Yei wrote:


GDXTom wrote:



What do you mean us teenagers don't have the brain to know whether the Holocaust happened? Look, the Holocaust happened, there's no doubt about that. And 11 million people were killed, including 6 million Jews. This is basic, well-recorded history.


As in, we didn't born in the 1939 - 1946 to see the actual holocaust. I just wanted to state that everyone should not be serious about the holocaust; those who agree that holocaust exist vs. those who disagree on certain points. I seen arguments where people call holocaust denier stupid or have no brain, etc. etc.. People criticize about the holocaust seriously as if they warp to the 1939 and saw the "truth" (or something). I'm just tired of such arguments because we don't usually get a good debate about history, just trash-talked from some random guys.

Again, the holocaust did happen and I agree....and I want to say that, "teenagers don't have the brain," is an inaccurate sentence, sorry. I meant, we didn't see world war 2 with our own eye (or something like that I have poor vocab). Of course, if you criticized me that I deny the holocaust because it show sympathy to Jewish people or the creation of Israel, no. I post those because you ask "Why do people deny holocaust?," and the part about sympathy and Israel is one explanation of why they deny holocaust (I believed some Muslims, and the Iran President deny the holocaust because of Israel). If not, then ok just asking.

Ok for now, let remove Israel and Palestinian from this holocaust situation and say, "Why do people deny the holocaust, but not because of Israel?,' people deny the holocaust because it lack research and true facts. Another explanation is, of course, antisemitism. There are people who do deny the holocaust because of different propaganda and reasons. Remember that there are fake propaganda and lies in politics. We get in to these huge arguments, such as:

- Was 911 planned by the government? or was 911 really hit by terrorists?
- Was there a Weapon of Mass Destruction in the Middle East? or just a fake fact to make the Middle East (Iraq) more Democratic?
- Did Georgia started the war against Russia after assaulting the rebellion neighbors, or Russia attack Georgia to gain more land (or friendly neighbors)?
- did the Swine Flu (H1N1) exist? or was it the government fake facts to scare us all? (I do agree that the flu exist, my cousin's little sister's friend got swine flu).
- Did the USA really launch a spaceship to the moon? Or false because the USA used Hollywood?
- etc. etc.

There are multiple campaign and propaganda videos, and some do lie and are false. If there are tough message from propaganda to make people believed that Jewish are bad, they could be fooled. In the Middle East there are magazines of U.S. army killing and destroying the Middle East while the Al Quaeda and Citizens became hero and pray to god. Is it true that we are killing and destroying? Sort of...like 10-20% but not on purpose. Nevertheless, they just made some false facts about us and it boosted anti-USA. .

Short: I do know that the holocaust exist, and sorry if any of my sentences sound like if I have no brain ( I have poor grammar and vocabulary).

Reason why people deny the holocaust
#1: Jewish hoax "revisionism" - Zane9
#2: Lack research and true facts
#3: False propaganda and facts (Remember the part about Anti USA magazines)
#4: They are High super critical people who don't believe in facts. Why did a boy in Thailand stab a Taxi Driver? He played Grand Theft Auto and killed a Taxi driver in that game, he wanted to see how it feel like in real life. That is dumb, but that mean there are people who aren't smart, or mental and hypocritical. There are people who believes in anarchy, no religion, no science, no holocaust, etc. Don't face them, if they deny real facts, just leave them alone because it will be tough to deal with them through discussions.
#5: Some Anti-Semitism
#6: umm....more? That's all I got for now. I'll let the more intelligent person to post what they got to say

I like to thank Zane9 for a vocabulary (revisionism) that define hoax events, and drizza and Ryutai-Desk by agreeing with me on certain facts.

This is all I got. If only we can REALLY understand why Hitler want Jews as the main target, other than blaming them for making Germany lose World War 1, because if they elect someone else that doesn't make Jewish people the main target, the world would really change huh? Well, time to sleep for school tomorrow + Homecoming fair. They made this Haunted House (Haunted Auditorium) and I think my friend want me to go to the haunted auditorium again. Last year was interesting, except thepart when they were pushing me and I bang my head on the wall, and I was in a sad-almost unconscious mood (The auditorium is kind of dark and my head hit the wall really hard I almost trip. They push me to the exit ).

Users, please don't reply to my post and criticize certain sentences seriously. I don't want to post a lot because it waste my time from studying and sleep-time. I'm also doing my best to be on topic, because debating about the Iran president and Israel/Palestinian are kind of an off-topic. + I'm not that intelligent enough, because I change from learning history and politics to learning economic and international business.
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Posted 10/6/09
Wow, I thought holocaust denial was just an internet meme that trolls use to piss people off. I didn't know people actually believed it.


drizza wrote:

I believe there was a holocaust but not in the context I was taught. I dont feel like I am ready to debate it right now because I am still not confident that everything I read is true. I am still researching and asking questions. When I have everything down I still wont post what I need to say because people tends to just get overly sensitive and angry if you have a different view even if you present it in a non anti-semtic way. I agree with Zane if I open my mouth many people will just jump on me rather then have a sensible debate. Back to to what GDX said the issue is the Israel creation, the amount of Jews killed, and some scientists who researched it said some of the jews werent even executed how we were told they were. I wont go into further detail because like I said I am still new to this information. It is important to understand the past to find out why things are the way they are today.


I have absolutely no knowledge or opinion over the Israel/Palestine conflict, nor am I all that passionate about convincing someone that the holocaust did occur, mainly because all I know about it is what I learned from simple high school text books. I'm really interested in hearing arguments against the widely accepted account of the Holocaust, so if you are doing research about it and want to debate it then you can PM me, since I'm not biased either way.
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