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Holocaust Denial
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Posted 10/27/09 , edited 10/27/09
Seraph my dear friend. I said the holocaust did happen just not in the way I was tought. Yes hitler murdered Jews, Gypsies and others. You have proved nothing to be bullshit. Those views was what I questioned but didnt have a solid answer to before meeting the guy. I just watch him debate and he doesnt lose therefore I side with the person who makes more since. Allow me to now quote Ansar about the holocaust because apparently you was not reading because he never said the holocaust didnt happen.

"Thanks for the admission SeraphAlford but I would make one slight correction. Instead of "holocaust denying" the proper label for myself, Iran's president Ahmadinejad, the Jewish group Neturei Karta and thousands of others is "holocaust fact finding". We don't deny that Jews, gypsies and others were murdered by the Nazis. What we question is the 6000 number, ridiculous stories about soap, lamp shades, etc being made from their bodies, gas chambers being used to kill people, etc. Rather than condemn and put us in jail for using reason to address these claims, prove them and do so publicly on TV, etc so that if you are right we could permanently be dismissed once and for all."

Now who is down right saying there was no holocaust? Of course to just sit there and say hitler was made up despite all the evidence yes makes me sound like a Gosh damn idiot. Everyone knows there was hitler, there are pictures of the event as well. I dont think anyone on this thread is ignorant or dilluting themselves from believing the official story of the holocaust. People have different opinions on the matter but I just hate that if you dont believe everything the official story says then people get down right pissed. My question is if there is solid 100% proof where nothing can be debunked then why cant anyone research any of the sites where the event took place? Why instead of shutting people up with your knowledge you want to lock them away for having a different opinion? This is where the problem lies. If it is easy to prove 9-11 was ochestrated then refute the so called "conspiracy theories" like many people are doing. But it would be unjust to just throw them in jail for having a freedom of speech.
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Posted 10/27/09
So you’re denying the historical account of the holocaust and minimizing it, not denying it? My bad, sorry about that.
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Posted 10/27/09
Ok jump to the most negative conclusions w/e. We are different people I like to seek out other information regarding certain topics. Hell one of these days I would like to investigate JFK assination and other interesting related topics deemed taboo to speak of. I am not minimizing anything but to me nothing is to big to where you cant speak on it either.
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Posted 10/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

So now only those who were killed in the camps count? What about the Gypsies, the Jews, the blacks, gays, deaf, and dumb who were just shot in the street? Why’re you neglecting their suffering?

The point is that the historical term holocaust IS the killing of the Jews by the Nazi. That’s what it means.


How about the Palestinians that still being killed in front of us? Why people supporting the invaders?

The point is that the suffering Palestinians crawling for their lives and being abandoned by the big nations. That's why it's absurd.
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Posted 10/28/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


OK, so I lived in Germany, Italy, US, and I am citizen of Croatia. So, when I wrote about holocaust knowledge, and how I was amazed that people dont know about it, I was talking about my time in US, not Europeans. There I spent my time with doctors mostly (funny how people congregate by occupation), and I was not amused when i found out that so highly educated people know holocaust only as "killing of Jews". It was not targeted to Jews only. In Balkan, Croats (yes, we fought on the nazi side, not proud of it) tried to exterminate Serbs, Bulgarians tried to eradicate Macedonians, Italians were killing off Croats (communist fighters), etc.


Nobody is saying that the Jews were the only people targeted by the Nazi forces. We all know that the Jews weren’t the only people who died in that time period. However, the term Holocaust was applied specifically to the Jews. That’s what the historical term references. The confusion comes in because why the historical term is specific to the Jews the popular term has been extended to include everybody. So when you ask an educated person about it and they say that it was “Killing of the Jews,” they’re right. That doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t know that other people suffered, millions of other people did suffer, but the term itself is referencing a specific genocide not all the death that happened at the hands of the Nazi party.

Let’s use a less controversial but similar historical example. The Spartans kept slaves from war, but only some of these slaves were helots. The helots were a social class of conquered people. You see, Sparta was originally four Laconian villages. These villages united and conquered all the other villages throughout southern Laconia. The villages that came willingly became citizens of the Spartan Demos, or peroikoi. (I’m not sure on the spelling but it translates to “Dwellers about.) Those Laconian villages that resisted were degraded to helots, which were slaves. So, if you ask me what a helot was I may say, “A slave in Sparta,” and that’s true. I may also say, “a Laconian prisoner of war forced to servile labor,” and that’s still correct because not all the people enslaved by the Spartans were helots, but all the helots were slaves in Sparta.

So, not all the people killed by the Nazi were victims of the holocaust, though they were victims of the Nazi regime, but all holocaust victims were victims of the Nazi. You see? It’s not saying that nobody else suffered. It’s simply debating the meaning of the word ‘holocaust.’

I, personally, feel we should extend the term to include many other groups we often ignore. However, for historical reasons many scholars think it’s more specific than that and is referencing the Jewish genocide in particular.

It’s not saying that nobody else died. It’s saying that the holocaust is the term applied to the Jewish suffering. We all know other people suffered, but if you look up the definition of the term it has historically been used to designate the particular genocide amongst a fit of genocides taking place at the time.


So, what is really angering people is that while all the people made peace with what happened, acknowledged crimes and punished the guilty, Jews still can not let go.

So people are angry because the Jews don’t want to forget that an entire third of their race was obliterated in a matter of years? That sounds like racial animosity to me. If it was our people we’d certainly remember it, and so we do. Women remember a history of being defined as inferior. Blacks remember slavery. Native Americans remember the Sandcreek Massacre.

I don’t think anybody else has moved on. I think we all remember the terrible things other people have done to us and we SHOULD. Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes, and if you ‘move on,’ if you start pretending like it didn’t happen, how’re you supposed to learn from it?

Think about the Japanese Relocation Camps in America. The Japanese Americans are still collecting money for that trespass to this very day. Every survivor is being granted tens of thousands of dollars.


I know what you mean, but here we are talking about holocaust and people who died in camps. And that is why I made the list, and why I talked about camps only.


So now only those who were killed in the camps count? What about the Gypsies, the Jews, the blacks, gays, deaf, and dumb who were just shot in the street? Why’re you neglecting their suffering?

The point is that the historical term holocaust IS the killing of the Jews by the Nazi. That’s what it means.


And, since you lived in Germany, I think you know that WWII was only continuation of WWI, for witch most of the Germans believe was plot of GB to destroy German industry (success) and deny them colonies (success), and French to take Alzaise and Loraine (success). - sorry, unrelated.


Most Germans don’t seem to have any idea what went on. They seem to know that there was a war. They know they lost. They know they were in the wrong and did terrible things to various people, and that’s about it. I went to German public schools and we never covered World War II. It was like a big missing chunk in the text books from the year 1930-1948.


Haha, now you reminded me of my college days, where I had to compare Spartan and Athena constitution... I thought it was easy subject, but then I had to read tons of stuff...

OK, I see what is happening here.Well, in Croatian schools it is implied that holocaust is related to all people killed in camps. Others were collateral victims, civilian victims, etc. So, when I read "holocaust", I read: "people interred in camps and jails for not military reasons" (list of those people is in my first post).
Where were you in Germany and when? I have family there, and they are all normally educated about everything, so it really sounds strange that you have not learned anything about WWII.
And about neglecting other peoples suffering... well, that was why I posted here in the first place... read again my first post.
The last answer, about forgetting, I have good example: Croatia was fighting with Venice for 300 years, we even lost our king to them, and our first crown lies somewhere at the bottom of the adriatic sea. We were fighting Turks for 400 - 500 years - Austro - Hungarian monarchy used us as as buffer. To Turks we were filthy christians, to us, they were conquering infidels. Today (after forced islamisation, unjustified taxes, killings, pillaging etc) we have normal relations with both Italy and Turkey. The same goes for the last war 20 years ago: if you read little into war in ex Yugoslavia, then you will find ethnic cleansing and massacres galore, but now we all live normally. During WWII, we also had camps, etc etc,... but after the war finished we continued to live normally. No one was crying about money, revenge, and no one was saying that "whole nation is evil".
Evil must be remembered in order not to happen again, but not in order to be used as excuse for taking money and accusing everybody who does not agree with you and does not approve of you for being Nazi, and I don't know what. That is just pathetic.
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Posted 10/28/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

How about the Palestinians that still being killed in front of us? Why people supporting the invaders?

The point is that the suffering Palestinians crawling for their lives and being abandoned by the big nations. That's why it's absurd.


What are you talking about being abandoned by the large nations? Palestine is the largest recipient of foreign aid per capita in the world. America and Japan, the two wealthiest nations in the world, are two of the major contributors. The weapons being used by the terrorist in Gaza are coming from Egypt and Saudi Arabia is providing the funding.

The real tragedy isn’t that the big nations have turned their back on the Palestinians. Actually, as compare to many other, larger, humanitarian crises going on in the world today they receive a disproportional measure of attention and support.

Of the some 680 United Nations General Assembly resolutions dealing with various aspects of the Middle Eastern and Arab-Israeli conflicts more than 100 have referred directly to the plight of the Palestinian refugees. The United Nations never passed a single resolution making a specific reference to, or expressing sympathy for, the 856,000 Jewish refugees displaced by the same conflict.

Numerous United Nations organizations have been created for the specific purpose of providing protection, relief, and assistance to the Palestinian refugees. An even larger number were directly involved in the same activities, but no organization provided any attention or assistance whatsoever to the even larger number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Billions of dollars have been spent by the international community-by the United Nations and its affiliated entities and various member states-to provide relief and assistance for the Palestinian refugees. There was never a single act of international financial support for the Jewish refugees.

The only people who’ve turned their backs on the Palestinians are the Palestinians. They’ve been so concerned with the destruction of Israel that they’ve neglected the sustaining of Palestine. Palestine would be a sovereign, prospering nation today if they had just accepted the partition plan in 1947 instead of ignoring international law to wage a genocidal, not to mention utterly and undeniably illegal, war to eradicate the Jews. The wall would’ve never been built on Gaza if it weren’t for suicide bombers and truck bombers from Gaza, need I refresh you on the history of what drove the Israelis to command the wall from the government despite the reluctance of politicians to spend the money necessary for such a project?

It's terrible that it's happening but we're triyng to help them. We're trying to get Hamas out, but some people just seem masturbate to images of maimed Israelis and are willing to sacrifice hundreds of Palestinians to kill 12 Israelis.
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Posted 10/28/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

What are you talking about being abandoned by the large nations? Palestine is the largest recipient of foreign aid per capita in the world. America and Japan, the two wealthiest nations in the world, are two of the major contributors. The weapons being used by the terrorist in Gaza are coming from Egypt and Saudi Arabia is providing the funding.

The real tragedy isn’t that the big nations have turned their back on the Palestinians. Actually, as compare to many other, larger, humanitarian crises going on in the world today they receive a disproportional measure of attention and support.

Of the some 680 United Nations General Assembly resolutions dealing with various aspects of the Middle Eastern and Arab-Israeli conflicts more than 100 have referred directly to the plight of the Palestinian refugees. The United Nations never passed a single resolution making a specific reference to, or expressing sympathy for, the 856,000 Jewish refugees displaced by the same conflict.

Numerous United Nations organizations have been created for the specific purpose of providing protection, relief, and assistance to the Palestinian refugees. An even larger number were directly involved in the same activities, but no organization provided any attention or assistance whatsoever to the even larger number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries.

Billions of dollars have been spent by the international community-by the United Nations and its affiliated entities and various member states-to provide relief and assistance for the Palestinian refugees. There was never a single act of international financial support for the Jewish refugees.

The only people who’ve turned their backs on the Palestinians are the Palestinians. They’ve been so concerned with the destruction of Israel that they’ve neglected the sustaining of Palestine. Palestine would be a sovereign, prospering nation today if they had just accepted the partition plan in 1947 instead of ignoring international law to wage a genocidal, not to mention utterly and undeniably illegal, war to eradicate the Jews. The wall would’ve never been built on Gaza if it weren’t for suicide bombers and truck bombers from Gaza, need I refresh you on the history of what drove the Israelis to command the wall from the government despite the reluctance of politicians to spend the money necessary for such a project?

It's terrible that it's happening but we're triyng to help them. We're trying to get Hamas out, but some people just seem masturbate to images of maimed Israelis and are willing to sacrifice hundreds of Palestinians to kill 12 Israelis.


I'm talking about their lives with shortage of water, oppression from soldiers and endless conflict that affect both physical and physiology of its citizens. If it so great, then why they still living with no clean water and unable to improve themselves with independence funding through trading and business to other nations (the legal one, not through tunnel)? It because of blockade, right.

Israel nation can be created because of UN GA resolution 181 to allowed Jewish refugees to return to their homeland and share the lands with Palestinian. There was already fixed map about the lands. Why Israel rejected the Map offered by UN when they've already build their settlements? They took the resolution for granted at first to be able to came to the lands, but the rejected the resolution when they already settle their army there.

Now, which one is the invader backed by US to conquer all the lands? Do they have rights to live their by killing the people? Of course, looking at current situations, they have to share each other. But is there any willingness from Israel to share? By rejecting any peace proposals, from UN, US, Arab league and the rest of the world? That's why Hamas hate them, as well as current Fatah, because they are too stubborn to not share their Promised Land to others, as well as using Holocaust to pity themselves. As Netanyahu used that in the previous meetings in UN.


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Posted 10/31/09 , edited 10/31/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


drizza wrote:

Does anyone here remember me saying the holocaust didnt happen? I am quite sure I mentioned that if someone asked me if there was a holocaust I would say Yes There Was One. Seraph and I already said I am not debating any holocaust issues because my mind is not made up of yet with the facts. Simply is what I am stating is what I heard. So far I havent heard any anti-semtism coming from truth seekers accept those people who just hate jews all together. I could care less about your views I just hate it when people try to force something on me. I examine both sides and will come up with a conclusion but thanks for your information you posted that I already knew waay back in high school. And please dont mention my friend if you want to talk to him he is still waiting on you on the other thread.


You’re the one who brought him up, Drizza. You didn’t say you didn’t think the holocaust happened. You did say you agree with Ansar, and Ansar is of the opinion that it didn’t happen and everyone who believes it did is part of some vast international conspiracy to silence you ‘truth seekers.’

That term doesn’t even describe you. Drizza, you just look for what you want to believe is true and if it turns out to be so you’re happy. And if it turns out to be obviously false then you declare yourself agnostic.

I mean, come on. How’re you legitimately going to buy into anything Ansar said? The entire thread about the Zeitgeist discussion was total bullshit. I feel like we’re looking at two completely different things. I don’t see how you can stare down at human excrement and claim to see aesthetic mountains unless you’re intentionally diluting yourself to make the bullshit that’s really there look like the evidence you want to see.

I don’t think you’re being truthful, I think you’re being dishonest and disguising it as being truthful under a banner of agnosticism. You're not being intellectually honest with me or yourself or anyone else.


everybody has a different perspective of the world...all the dude is saying is that he doesnt believe the holocaust happened the way the media or history portrays it. And thats a legitiment arguement. Media/ history books are biased and profit motivated.

I mean, come on. How’re you legitimately going to buy into anything Ansar said?

there are effective methods of persuasion to achieve such goals...whats bullshit to one man is gold to another...

the OP even asked how do people benefit from denying facts?
well, for one is can affirm thier own personal beliefs (religious, political, racist, ect.)

2- the evidence may be presented in a way that leads to multiple interpretations.

3-they might just be ignorant of the entire thing.

but i dont believe this Drizza guy is ne of those. I think his argument is sound and solid. after all, how many of us in this thread was actually in a concentration camp? I mean its possible to warp your mind around the evidence and propose an effective argument about how the holocausts didnt exists. I was hoping to meet some of those people in this thread for a good debate, but there r none .

And this wouldnt be the 1st historical event where "facts" or "evidences" are warped as it gets older.And besides, no school system in the world has equal education or equal oppertunities. And this can lead to holocausts deniers as well.

I don’t think you’re being truthful, I think you’re being dishonest and disguising it as being truthful under a banner of agnosticism. You're not being intellectually honest with me or yourself or anyone else.

and what if he is? what if that is how he perceives the events and evidences in all honesty? is it that hard to imagine how someone could quesion what some athority figure says about some event that he/she didnt attend?

Edit:So you’re denying the historical account of the holocaust and minimizing it, not denying it? My bad, sorry about that

minimizing it? i dont believe that's his intentions either. He is simply curious about it. and to minimize anything the history books/ media portrays is to actually put it in its rightful size. peace over war

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Posted 11/1/09 , edited 11/1/09
^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.
Posted 11/1/09

drizza wrote:

^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.

And you think the internet has no real consequence over the real world, when it's in fact quite the opposite, why?
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Posted 11/1/09

DomFortress wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.

And you think the internet has no real consequence over the real world, when it's in fact quite the opposite, why?


He didn't say he thought the internet has no real consequences over the real world. He's saying we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true
Posted 11/1/09

Yei wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.

And you think the internet has no real consequence over the real world, when it's in fact quite the opposite, why?


He didn't say he thought the internet has no real consequences over the real world. He's saying we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true

However, in today's society where discussions are taking place all over the world via internet technology. His exact want is a need of a medium where he can express himself without any real consequence; the internet. But at the same time however, the internet is not such a medium.

The internet sensation while still virtual, its effect and influence on people's thoughts and feelings are nonetheless real, when the internet is full of people's thoughts and feelings. Therefore the only people who aren't being influenced by the effect of the internet are those who don't use it, while there are those with a double standard for themselves when it comes to virtual reality.
Yei
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Posted 11/1/09 , edited 11/1/09

DomFortress wrote:


Yei wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.

And you think the internet has no real consequence over the real world, when it's in fact quite the opposite, why?


He didn't say he thought the internet has no real consequences over the real world. He's saying we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true

However, in today's society where discussions are taking place all over the world via internet technology. His exact want is a need of a medium where he can express himself without any real consequence; the internet. But at the same time however, the internet is not such a medium.

The internet sensation while still virtual, its effect and influence on people's thoughts and feelings are nonetheless real, when the internet is full of people's thoughts and feelings. Therefore the only people who aren't being influenced by the effect of the internet are those who don't use it, while there are those with a double standard for themselves when it comes to virtual reality.


He said we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true. I don't know how anything you're talking about is relevant but it sounds like it's all meaningless and you're just trying to come up with something to say.
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Posted 11/1/09 , edited 11/1/09
Lol Dom what Yei is saying is what I am saying I think you are going a bit too deep. Lets just rewind as you can see on these forums we are able to discuss Israel Palestine issues, Holocaust, Gays/Lesbiain, Religion, 9-11 inside job, any thing considered a conspiracy, and look here I can do it without having any consequences in the real world. I am not on the news being attacked. I am able to keep my job and my college isnt throwing me out. Hey and also I have no warrents for my arrests for my opinions. Thats what I mean buddy. Now these issues cant easily be debated due to a lot of double standards and large amount of ad hominem attacks, character assisination, silencing, all types of other crap to make you just look like your retarded without actually hearing any of the research you present..
Posted 11/1/09

Yei wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Yei wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


drizza wrote:

^Oh man I have someone who will effectively stand firm and debate this holocaust issue. The problem is lol if anyone will stand firm and debate him back I mean I hate calling him here to CR all the time and nobody debates him back. He isn't one of those guys who attacks you and makes you look dumb at the process. I will ask him to come here and explain the reasons why he doesn't believe some parts the official story. It may take awhile before he responds.

This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.

And you think the internet has no real consequence over the real world, when it's in fact quite the opposite, why?


He didn't say he thought the internet has no real consequences over the real world. He's saying we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true

However, in today's society where discussions are taking place all over the world via internet technology. His exact want is a need of a medium where he can express himself without any real consequence; the internet. But at the same time however, the internet is not such a medium.

The internet sensation while still virtual, its effect and influence on people's thoughts and feelings are nonetheless real, when the internet is full of people's thoughts and feelings. Therefore the only people who aren't being influenced by the effect of the internet are those who don't use it, while there are those with a double standard for themselves when it comes to virtual reality.


He said we can discuss certain issues here alot more easily than we can in real life, which is very true. I don't know how anything you're talking about is relevant but it sounds like it's all meaningless and you're just trying to come up with something to say.

Did he not said that:

drizza wrote:
This is what I want to see and glad I am alive in the age of the internet. Because here on the internet we can discuss anything without any consequences. This issue could never be debated in the real world though.
However, this is an internet public forum, whereas he could be having a virtual discussion in his private room using the internet. Therefore while he thinks that his thoughts and feelings have no real consequences on the real world because he's expressing them privately, he's nonetheless openly sharing them on an internet public forum. Just like you and I are openly discussing his thoughts and feelings about the internet.

Now you tell me, how's that not he having a double-standard about the virtual reality that's the internet. When he wouldn't share his thoughts and feelings openly in real public because of the consequences of such action may result, but he would do so openly in a virtual reality such as this internet public forum. When the internet can indeed have real consequences on the real world and the people inhabiting both realities.

Unless, of course, he's afraid of the real consequences of expressing himself openly in real public; other people's real thoughts and feelings from the real world. So in the end he's only using the internet as a medium for ranting, not for him seriously discussing his thoughts and feelings with other people.
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