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Violence on the Temple Mount
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Posted 10/25/09 , edited 10/25/09
A long history of violence continues.



On Sunday evening in Jerusalem, October 4, riots broke out in the alleyways of the city’s Muslim districts, on the Temple Mount, and throughout the Israeli occupied territory of East Jerusalem. After five hours of stand-off nine police officers and an Australian reporter were lightly wounded by Muslim protestors hurtling stones and Molotov cocktails. 21 ethnic Arabs were arrested.

Israeli sources report that it began when a Jerusalem based organization called Temple Institute called for orthodox Jews to gather on the temple mount for prayer in an attempt to keep Jews affiliated with the holiest site in the Judeo, Christian, and Muslim theological lines. The Temple Institute is known to be dedicated to the research and eventual rebuilding of Solomon’s temple.

The Temple Mount, or as Muslims call it, al-Haram al-Sharif, was the original location of the Jewish temple that was destroyed by the Romans. Today it is the location of the Mosque al-Aqsa and the Dome on the Rock. The Mosque Al-Aqsa was built on the ruins of Solomon’s temple, so the problem is quite clear. You cannot rebuild Solomon’s Temple at another location; it must be reconstructed where it was originally placed. That means destroying Islam’s third holiest site.

When word of a Jewish prayer-gathering organized by an institution dedicated to the destruction of the Mosque al-Aqsa reached Muslim leaders in the area they called for the Arabs in the area to rise ‘in its defence.’ They began harassing worshippers and throwing stones to which police responded with tear gas and stun grenades.

Arab media, however, has a different take. According to Al Jazeera the Muslims came together not because of the Jewish gathering but for prayers of their own. Israeli police officers assaulted the peaceful Muslims by launching tear gas and stun grenades at them. The Arabs in the area were only protecting themselves when they began throwing stones and their peaceful gathering became a violent riot of self defence.

The area has a history of inter religious violence. In 1920 the Grand Mufti Al Husayni incited race riots that culminated in the massacre of Jews praying at the Wailing Wall with claims that they were amassing in an attempt to take the Mosque Al-Aqsa. The gathering was actually a traditional celebration of the Jewish holiday of Passover. In 1996 dozens were killed in riots related to the Mosque al-Aqsa. On September 27, 2000 tensions exploded when tourists were pelted with stones by Palestinian Arabs who mistook them for orthodox Jews. Kamal Khatib, a spokesman for the Israeli Arab Islamic Movement claims that “The police always excuse their attacks by saying that the worshippers threw stones,” and elaborates, “It is clear they just want to justify their crimes." The quote was not released by Israeli news sources.

Israeli sources also focus on the anger of Israeli right-wingers with their own government for “siding,” with the Arabs. Actually, the police closed the entire region down to all visitors including the Muslims until the violence had calmed down.(Al Jazeera reported that “dozens…were locked inside the Mosque,”) Still, the right-wingers point out that “the only other place…where Jews are forbidden from praying, on a state level, is Mecca. But we’re talking about…the holiest site in Judaism.”

Rabbi Yaakov defended the Israeli police saying to the right-wing Israelis that, “I can tell you that the police are neither leftists nor are they anti-Jewish” and further asserting that they simply seemed to take the side of the Arabs because it as the quickest way to create peace. Whatever the case eighteen Palestinians were wounded and more than 200 more agreed to leave the mosque peacefully after negotiations. After the area was closed down about 150 Palestinians clashed with Israel police in another riot.

I’m going to link the Al Jazeera and the Jerusalem post articles as well as CNN article for the sake of impartiality.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1256150049648&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/10/20091025154543922901.html#
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/10/25/israel.holy.site.arrests/index.html

What are your thoughts?
Yei
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Posted 10/25/09 , edited 10/25/09
Well, it's unfortunate that things like this happen in the world.
Posted 10/25/09
oh well. violence is everywhere man~
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Posted 10/25/09
violence is the second greatest intangible commodity that humans produce..... stupidity will always number 1

its a shame this happened...
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Posted 10/25/09

Yei wrote:

Well, it's unfortunate that things like this happen in the world.


Yeah, we all know that much. What do you think about the motives, the reactions, the media, the history, ext?

Personally I think the Muslim forces should’ve been more prudent in the placement of their holy buildings all those years ago. On the flip side I don’t think any Jewish organization should have any right to tear down the Mosque al-Aqsa. The Romans destroyed their temple, not the Muslims. And while the decision was imprudent and disrespectful, it was also made a very long time ago and the modern worshippers cannot be held accountable. Plus, it’d ruin any chance for peace in the region.

I also think Israel should like…collect every single stone in Jerusalem and move them some place really far away. Like the ocean. They have way too much trouble with people throwing rocks.
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Posted 10/25/09

mystic17 wrote:

oh well. violence is everywhere man~


That's true, but in this case do you think it could've been avoided? If so how, who should've done something different? Do you feel it was handled properly after it did outbreak? Do you think the bias of Israeli and Arab media may contributed to this sense of racial and religious animosity? Do you think if orthodox Jews weren’t being restricted in their right to worship on a mutually revered site this would’ve been avoided? Or if Muslims didn’t have control of the site? Or if Israel wasn’t occupying territory to which they have absolutely no legal right to?

There's a lot to talk about if you're willing.
Posted 10/25/09 , edited 10/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


That's true, but in this case do you think it could've been avoided? If so how, who should've done something different? Do you feel it was handled properly after it did outbreak? Do you think the bias of Israeli and Arab media may contributed to this sense of racial and religious animosity? Do you think if orthodox Jews weren’t being restricted in their right to worship on a mutually revered site this would’ve been avoided? Or if Muslims didn’t have control of the site? Or if Israel wasn’t occupying territory to which they have absolutely no legal right to?

There's a lot to talk about if you're willing.


eh my opinion won't matter in that situation. even if the problem was avoided by giving them what they want, those whose object to it will retaliate in the future. that's how some people are~
Posted 10/26/09
First of all, thanks for providing the extensive source materials. They really help establishing the situation...

... NOT!

This is a typical case of he-said-she-said, and not a very funny one either. Just the fact that while the Israeli sources said it was a "Jerusalem based organization called Temple Institute called for orthodox Jews", while the Al Jazeera sources claimed that "a fringe Israeli group, the Organisation for the Defence of Human Rights on the Temple Mount, called on Jews to gather". Got me really fed up with those Muslim news editors.

Screw it! Those lying Arab Muslims can kiss my ass while eat my dust. Beside the obvious spelling errors, there's no such thing as the "Organisation for the Defence of Human Rights on the Temple Mount". And just for that, I'm gonna disregard the Al Jazeera sources all together.

Furthermore, I think the Arab Muslims overreacted to the whole situation according to CNN, when they stoned the on-site security forces and not Jews. While they had a history of stoning people at random. Or do they think that throwing stones and Molotov cocktails can be constituted as "peaceful protest"? When people can get killed by either one of those.

If those Arab Muslims don't know how to play nice, they should get some timeouts by the Israeli government until they learn their lessons.
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Posted 10/26/09
Atheist must seen this as ridiculous fight amongst religion. Just to let them know, this is not because of religion but because of Land, Politic and Rights in the most controversial place on earth.

And this is not the first time, the violence acts surround Dome of Rock if we bother to learn the history.
It's just similar incidents in this site. In this case, is fortunately not worse than the previous one. The Palestinians reacted to this because they think this is an occupation act by Israel to Al-Aqsa mosque, not to mention excavation from Israel of the area in Al-Aqsa Mosque

In the 1980's, the Israelis started an archaeological project in the area of the Dome of the Rock (Masjid Al-Aqsa). They began excavation claiming that they were searching for the Temple Of King Solomon. They were unable to locate the Temple Of King Solomon, but in the process discover ed the tunnel of King Je-hoia-chin. The Israelis claimed that the search was a success only because they discovered the collapsed tunnel of King Je-hoia-chin, which is in no way related to the Temple of King Solomon.

This tunnel has no religious significance, it only has historical significance. The entrance was then sealed and today has been reopened without justification. The significance to the Muslims is well understood, they fear for Masjid Al-Aqsa and its foundation, and that in some way this excavation can damage the Holy Mosque. The significance of this dig to the Jews is not yet understood, clearly there is no religious significance. Prime Minister Netanyahu has said this openly is his news conference at the White House.

Several excavations of the al-Aqsa Mosque took place throughout the 1970s: In 1970, Israeli authorities commenced intensive excavations directly beneath the mosque on the southern and western sides. In 1977, digging continued and a large tunnel was opened below the women's prayer area and a new tunnel was dug under the mosque, going east to west in 1979. In addition, the Archaeological Department of the Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs dug a tunnel near the western portion of the mosque in 1984.

In February 2007, the Department started to excavate a site for archaeological remains in a location where the government wanted to rebuild a collapsed pedestrian bridge. This site was 60 meters away from the mosque. The excavations provoked anger throughout the Islamic world, and Israel was accused of trying to destroy the foundation of the mosque.


This violence acts mostly based could be because of :
1. To defense Al-Aqsa Mosque to prevent further influence from Israeli.
2. Fear of Palestinian people regarding to tragedy called 'Al-Aqsa Massacre (1990)'
3. Resistance to Jews that attempt to build the Third Temple.
4. and so on ~

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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

Atheist must seen this as ridiculous fight amongst religion. Just to let them know, this is not because of religion but because of Land, Politic and Rights in the most controversial place on earth.


As much as I wish that were true I think you and I both know it is not. Clearly it’s a religious conflict. It’s been going on since long before the land dispute even began. Hell, it’s been going on since before the Second World War even began. It’s not about politics it’s about religion. That’s why it’s orthodox Jews not secular Israelis who’re being harassed and humiliated, made to wait for hours, to see the holy site. I mean, John Hagee wasn’t harassed when he wanted access. He’s a famously extroversive Zionist extremist with tens of thousands of followers. He’s actually preached about the destruction of the Mosque and the Dome and the replacement of the Temple of Solomon. Yet, he’s not an orthodox Jew. He’s a Christian. Those tourists who were lynched in 1996 were mistaken for orthodox Jews. Not for Israelis, Israelis and Israeli Arabs see the sites all the time.

The irony about this is that the orthodox Jews are the ones who oppose Zionism because it replaces the laws of divine guidance with secular nationalism. In fact, Zionism was originally seen as a rebellion against the recalcitrant orthodox, rabbinical traditions of the Jews. The Zionists are the ones who pushed the charge to take Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. But since many Zionists are secular and only agree with Zionism for political and cultural reasons, they’re being given more access to the holy sites than orthodox Jews who often oppose the occupation.

The fight for East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount is completely inspired by religion. The battle for Westbank, Gaza, and occupied Arab territory-yeah, that’s political. But Jerusalem is all about religious fervor.
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Posted 10/26/09


Amen brotha you said it!!!
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Posted 10/26/09

DomFortress wrote:

First of all, thanks for providing the extensive source materials. They really help establishing the situation...

... NOT!

This is a typical case of he-said-she-said, and not a very funny one either. Just the fact that while the Israeli sources said it was a "Jerusalem based organization called Temple Institute called for orthodox Jews", while the Al Jazeera sources claimed that "a fringe Israeli group, the Organisation for the Defence of Human Rights on the Temple Mount, called on Jews to gather". Got me really fed up with those Muslim news editors.

Screw it! Those lying Arab Muslims can kiss my ass while eat my dust. Beside the obvious spelling errors, there's no such thing as the "Organisation for the Defence of Human Rights on the Temple Mount". And just for that, I'm gonna disregard the Al Jazeera sources all together.

Furthermore, I think the Arab Muslims overreacted to the whole situation according to CNN, when they stoned the on-site security forces and not Jews. While they had a history of stoning people at random. Or do they think that throwing stones and Molotov cocktails can be constituted as "peaceful protest"? When people can get killed by either one of those.

If those Arab Muslims don't know how to play nice, they should get some timeouts by the Israeli government until they learn their lessons.


Well, the Al Jazeera article did seem to be borderline propaganda. You should note that it was Al Jazeera English. I don’t know what that branches relation to the mother company is. Still, it was hilarious to me that they reported that the Israeli police forces ‘locked,’ dozens of worshippers inside the mosque when in all actuality they just cut of transportation to EVERYBODY until the situation was stabilized and then returned control to the Muslims.

I think a couple things needs to happen.

First, Israel needs to send a clear message that the Mosque al Aqsa is an untouchable. No one gets to tear it down, no temple of Solomon, no Jewish dominance on the Temple Mount.

Second, they need to make it clear that the Jews will be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount rather or not the Muslims like it.

Third, they need to destroy the state level discrimination against orthodox Jews that they're allowing. The Muslims won't be happy about it but then Israel could walk around giving out free blow jobs and pizza to the Palestinians and Israel would still be torturing innocent protestors.

The fact of the matter is, the Jews were the ones who weren't allowed to pray. The Arabs got what they want. That feels like giving in to terrorism.
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Posted 10/26/09
With the news companies today, who knows what happened. As to the question who has the right to that area, my answer is: who knows. Jews were there first. Then muslims. And that is histrorical fact. Ah, christians also, periodically.
I just hope they all kill each other down there so the rest of the world can live in peace, and start thinking about real problems like overpopulation, hunger, poor and homeless etc. All these people just know how to create problems, and no one is offering any real, permanent solution. And the rest of us are spending our precious resources on their little petty squabbles.
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09

DomFortress wrote:
***

Screw it! Those lying Arab Muslims can kiss my ass while eat my dust. Beside the obvious spelling errors, there's no such thing as the "Organisation for the Defence of Human Rights on the Temple Mount". And just for that, I'm gonna disregard the Al Jazeera sources all together.

***
If those Arab Muslims don't know how to play nice, they should get some timeouts by the Israeli government until they learn their lessons.


Not to go Ad Homonym on you, but you really show your ignorance and racist bias here... there is really no difference at all between the "Big Three Monotheistic Religions" when it comes down to fanaticism and willful ignorance.

You don't see any real RELIGIOUS conflicts that do not involve one or all of them.

The Palestinians have every right to be pissed off as they were living peacefully side-by-side with Jews until American/European jews and their "we wish we were God's chosen people" Christian allies.

The idea you can base the right of a modern nation (Israel) to exist on dusty religious texts, which of course give the practitioners of that religion divine rights to everything, is ludicrous... and even in those religious texts when they got to the "promised land" there were already people living there!!!

They were called Canaanites, and if you read your old testament "god" (via the high priests) commands the Hebrews to commit genocide on them, to the man, woman, and child!

Out side of an asteroid/comet strike, the greatest threat to the continued existence of humanity is religious fanaticism and the ignorance and violence it engenders... All of these people have an Armageddon scenario, and some are not patient enough to let "god" choose the time and hour, but actively work to bring it about.

The next step of evolution of humanity is a social/philosophical one, and until/unless we "grow beyond" this kind of caveman thinking we are all doomed...

Whats my answer? Well unless we, as a race, just learn that my religion is my religion, and if you don't want to be part of it I can respect your choice, the only other alternative is to take the dirtiest, fallout spraying form a atomic bomb, and blast Jerusalem, Mecca, and maybe Rome for good measure, and make these places hostile to human life for about a million years till people wake the Hel up and get over it!
Yei
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

Well, it's unfortunate that things like this happen in the world.


Yeah, we all know that much. What do you think about the motives, the reactions, the media, the history, ext?

Personally I think the Muslim forces should’ve been more prudent in the placement of their holy buildings all those years ago. On the flip side I don’t think any Jewish organization should have any right to tear down the Mosque al-Aqsa. The Romans destroyed their temple, not the Muslims. And while the decision was imprudent and disrespectful, it was also made a very long time ago and the modern worshippers cannot be held accountable. Plus, it’d ruin any chance for peace in the region.

I also think Israel should like…collect every single stone in Jerusalem and move them some place really far away. Like the ocean. They have way too much trouble with people throwing rocks.


I think it says alot about the stupidity of human nature, especially when it comes to religion. So much conflict and political controversy over a little strip of land. As long as both the Muslims and Jews hold on to their fundamental beliefs that they are righteous and have God on their side and that the other side is inferior because of that, there can never be peace. The only solution here that I can see is to somehow hope that next generations on both sides will be more and more secular and eventually be able to identify with the other side.

Alot of them are already at that point, in one of my favourite documentaries "Promises" (a guy goes to Israel and talks to 7 Palestinian and Israeli kids and gets their opinions on everything, and in the end lets them meet each other and it made me cry), we see that the more secular kids on both sides think and want the same thing. But the more religious ones are absolutely insane and say they want the other side to just "disappear" and use religion to back everything they say.

As long as there's a majority of conservative extremists on both sides there won't be any hope, so the key I think is properly educating people there. Most Palestinian kids obviously aren't getting educated properly, and the conservative Jewish kids aren't any better.
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