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Violence on the Temple Mount
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M / Yo Mommas House
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Posted 10/26/09
And it is funny because the same people who toss the word anti-semtism around is incredibly racist themselves towards other groups of people. They just defeat their point each and every time they type and dont even realize it. It is sad that many can show how ignorant and outright dumb they are and not even know it.
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36 / M / Ohigho
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09
Well just to go back real quick and address this:


Personally I think the Muslim forces should’ve been more prudent in the placement of their holy buildings all those years ago.
Yeah, they were really pissing on some Jewish holy ground when they did that!


On the flip side I don’t think any Jewish organization should have any right to tear down the Mosque al-Aqsa.
Why not?

The Romans destroyed their temple, not the Muslims. And while the decision was imprudent and disrespectful, it was also made a very long time ago and the modern worshippers cannot be held accountable.
So? All this goes in cycles...


Plus, it’d ruin any chance for peace in the region.
As long as monotheism works on the mutual-exclusion tenet of "my truth is the only truth, all other truths are lies" there will never be that chance...

drizza wrote:

And it is funny because the same people who toss the word anti-semtism around is incredibly racist themselves towards other groups of people. They just defeat their point each and every time they type and dont even realize it. It is sad that many can show how ignorant and outright dumb they are and not even know it.
I hope you didn't mean me... I said "racist" on purpose, as Arabs are Semitic... I always get a laugh when idiots call Arabs anti-Semitic... :p
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Posted 10/26/09
^Allow me to introduce myself my name is Drizza. No I wasnt talking about you I was speaking in general towards a comment made in this thead. You see someone here on this thread is quick to call someone a racist but just outright bashes a group of people and their religion at the same time trying to teach peace.
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36 / M / Ohigho
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09

drizza wrote:

^Allow me to introduce myself my name is Drizza. No I wasnt talking about you I was speaking in general towards a comment made in this thead. You see someone here on this thread is quick to call someone a racist but just outright bashes a group of people and their religion at the same time trying to teach peace.


I didn't really think you were, it was just the timing of you posting after me, and plus I wanted to share in my humor/chagrin and the misuse of the term

I'm Sturm, I don't teach peace at all, but violence in defense of the peaceful...
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Posted 10/26/09

Yei wrote:


I think it says alot about the stupidity of human nature, especially when it comes to religion. So much conflict and political controversy over a little strip of land. As long as both the Muslims and Jews hold on to their fundamental beliefs that they are righteous and have God on their side and that the other side is inferior because of that, there can never be peace. The only solution here that I can see is to somehow hope that next generations on both sides will be more and more secular and eventually be able to identify with the other side.

Alot of them are already at that point, in one of my favourite documentaries "Promises" (a guy goes to Israel and talks to 7 Palestinian and Israeli kids and gets their opinions on everything, and in the end lets them meet each other and it made me cry), we see that the more secular kids on both sides think and want the same thing. But the more religious ones are absolutely insane and say they want the other side to just "disappear" and use religion to back everything they say.

As long as there's a majority of conservative extremists on both sides there won't be any hope, so the key I think is properly educating people there. Most Palestinian kids obviously aren't getting educated properly, and the conservative Jewish kids aren't any better.


I don’t think making them secular would solve the problem. The Zionist forces into Palestine were actually pretty secular and you believe that they still wanted to eradicate the Palestinians in order to create their Jewish state. I don’t agree but it makes my point quite clearly. It’s not just religion, though religion contributes in specific conflicts.

Secularism growing in the communities would have a positive influence, I think, on the region. But, I don’t think it’d make a real difference in the overall disagreement. Like I said in my other post, the secular Arabs and Israelis aren’t bickering about the Temple Mount. They are, however, bickering about Westbank. So, in this specific conflict your right. But in the greater conflict we need political action and a decrease in nationalism.

Fatah and many other forces contributing to this conflict are secular institutes encouraging secular views among their followers. The problem is that they replace it with nationalism. But, I think if we took away nationalism, which I think is worse than racism and more evil than any religion or lack thereof, and secularized the groups in question, and took certain steps…yeah, that would be our best hope for peace.

It is insane. Boggles my mind, really.
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Posted 10/26/09

Sturmrabe wrote: Why not?


Why do you think?

Posted 10/26/09

drizza wrote:


Amen brotha you said it!!!

And you know it! Vindication is good when you're the one who speaks the truth.


SeraphAlford wrote:
Well, the Al Jazeera article did seem to be borderline propaganda. You should note that it was Al Jazeera English. I don’t know what that branches relation to the mother company is. Still, it was hilarious to me that they reported that the Israeli police forces ‘locked,’ dozens of worshippers inside the mosque when in all actuality they just cut of transportation to EVERYBODY until the situation was stabilized and then returned control to the Muslims.

I think a couple things needs to happen.

First, Israel needs to send a clear message that the Mosque al Aqsa is an untouchable. No one gets to tear it down, no temple of Solomon, no Jewish dominance on the Temple Mount.

Second, they need to make it clear that the Jews will be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount rather or not the Muslims like it.

Third, they need to destroy the state level discrimination against orthodox Jews that they're allowing. The Muslims won't be happy about it but then Israel could walk around giving out free blow jobs and pizza to the Palestinians and Israel would still be torturing innocent protesters.


The fact of the matter is, the Jews were the ones who weren't allowed to pray. The Arabs got what they want. That feels like giving in to terrorism.

The Temple Institute's agenda for that day was only : 1)calling on the Jewish public to visit the Temple Mount "in purity", and 2)protest the "invasive and humiliating" police checks. Nothing about bringing the house down on anyone. Not to mention is the fact that "due to recent research showing conclusively that much of the Mount was not part of the original Temple and can therefore, under certain circumstances, be visited." While "Ritual immersion in a mikveh is one of the prerequisites." So the orthodox Jews weren't aiming for total dominance, when it's more like a "share and share alike" policy.

And hold the blow job, 'cause the pizza's occupied.


Sturmrabe wrote:
Not to go Ad Homonym on you, but you really show your ignorance and racist bias here... there is really no difference at all between the "Big Three Monotheistic Religions" when it comes down to fanaticism and willful ignorance.

You don't see any real RELIGIOUS conflicts that do not involve one or all of them.


The Palestinians have every right to be pissed off as they were living peacefully side-by-side with Jews until American/European jews and their "we wish we were God's chosen people" Christian allies.

The idea you can base the right of a modern nation (Israel) to exist on dusty religious texts, which of course give the practitioners of that religion divine rights to everything, is ludicrous... and even in those religious texts when they got to the "promised land" there were already people living there!!!

They were called Canaanites, and if you read your old testament "god" (via the high priests) commands the Hebrews to commit genocide on them, to the man, woman, and child!

Out side of an asteroid/comet strike, the greatest threat to the continued existence of humanity is religious fanaticism and the ignorance and violence it engenders... All of these people have an Armageddon scenario, and some are not patient enough to let "god" choose the time and hour, but actively work to bring it about.

The next step of evolution of humanity is a social/philosophical one, and until/unless we "grow beyond" this kind of caveman thinking we are all doomed...

Whats my answer? Well unless we, as a race, just learn that my religion is my religion, and if you don't want to be part of it I can respect your choice, the only other alternative is to take the dirtiest, fallout spraying form a atomic bomb, and blast Jerusalem, Mecca, and maybe Rome for good measure, and make these places hostile to human life for about a million years till people wake the Hel up and get over it!

I went on the offense because while the Arab Muslims lied about their business being at the Temple Mount on that day, the orthodox Jews OTOH were there when "The event is being held on the backdrop of the closure of the holy site to all Jews throughout the week long Sukkot holiday, when many had planned on visiting."

So while somebodies had to resort to lying and religion in order to justify their act of violence, you OTOH are willing to subject others to genocide if they disrespect reasoning and fairness.

Why?
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27 / M
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09


I know that the Jews on that particular day had absolutely no intention of tearing down the temple, hints the second step. At the same I have absolutely no doubt that the Muslim rioters were completely convinced that the Jews were going to make some such attempt. That’s why Israel needs to provide them with assurance. Whenever people feel the local government isn’t going to protect them they try to do so themselves. Israel needs to let them know that it will defend the Mosque from any destructive forces just as they would any other holy site under their jurisdiction.
Posted 10/26/09

SeraphAlford wrote:



I know that the Jews on that particular day had absolutely no intention of tearing down the temple, hints the second step. At the same I have absolutely no doubt that the Muslim rioters were completely convinced that the Jews were going to make some such attempt. That’s why Israel needs to provide them with assurance. Whenever people feel the local government isn’t going to protect them they try to do so themselves. Israel needs to let them know that it will defend the Mosque from any destructive forces just as they would any other holy site under their jurisdiction.

And judging from their agenda, I don't think the orthodox Jews will have a problem with any of your proposals. They've already shown their willingness to get along with other religious groups with this event, so now the table is turned on the Arab Muslims.
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M / Yo Mommas House
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Posted 10/26/09 , edited 10/26/09


You right man I dont know why these Moose-lims be lieing man. Preach it homeboy Preach. Once everyone around the world despises arab Moose-lims let me guess we just nuke them right?
Posted 10/27/09

drizza wrote:


DomFortress wrote:



You right man I dont know why these Moose-lims be lieing man. Preach it homeboy Preach. Once everyone around the world despises arab Moose-lims let me guess we just nuke them right?

Hell NO! I even despise using conventional weapons like guns, so why would I vindicate my justice using genocidal weapon like nuke? When I would much prefer to let my fists do the taking for me.
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36 / M / Ohigho
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Posted 10/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Sturmrabe wrote: Why not?


Why do you think?



2 words:
Hagia Sofia...

Also: which came first, the temple or the mount? The place is build on the fallen structure of the temple... While I don't agree with the methods of the old PLO, I also don't agree with how the conception of that country came to be, but at the same time that one particular spot was Jewish if not "first" certainly well before the advent of Islam.

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Posted 10/27/09

DomFortress wrote:

And judging from their agenda, I don't think the orthodox Jews will have a problem with any of your proposals. They've already shown their willingness to get along with other religious groups with this event, so now the table is turned on the Arab Muslims.


Of course, if the proposals are fair and not being discriminating one side, they'd mostly accept it. After all, it's about religious activity. Everyone has rights to do so, however that's not the case in actual place. Where there is always suspicion between 2 sides and secret attempt regarding to mosque by certain side, would not make any peace at all. The solution is talk, not fist, that also solved the dispute in the last incident.
Posted 10/27/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And judging from their agenda, I don't think the orthodox Jews will have a problem with any of your proposals. They've already shown their willingness to get along with other religious groups with this event, so now the table is turned on the Arab Muslims.


Of course, if the proposals are fair and not being discriminating one side, they'd mostly accept it. After all, it's about religious activity. Everyone has rights to do so, however that's not the case in actual place. Where there is always suspicion between 2 sides and secret attempt regarding to mosque by certain side, would not make any peace at all. The solution is talk, not fist, that also solved the dispute in the last incident.

You would be surprised just how much you can tell about a man's true feeling from his fist. When a fist struck with anger means that he felt wronged, a fist struck with rage means that he felt hatred, a fist struck with sorrow means he felt sadness, a fist struck with courage means he felt righteousness, and when a fist struck with nothingness means he felt enlightenment. But only when you've been on the receiving end of those fists as much as I did for myself, then you'll know what emotions that each of them speak.

Almost any man can hide his true intention behind his words. But when they intend to do so with their fists, then I will know by me knocking them out cold with mine. After all, action speaks louder than word.
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Posted 10/27/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

As much as I wish that were true I think you and I both know it is not. Clearly it’s a religious conflict. It’s been going on since long before the land dispute even began. Hell, it’s been going on since before the Second World War even began. It’s not about politics it’s about religion. That’s why it’s orthodox Jews not secular Israelis who’re being harassed and humiliated, made to wait for hours, to see the holy site. I mean, John Hagee wasn’t harassed when he wanted access. He’s a famously extroversive Zionist extremist with tens of thousands of followers. He’s actually preached about the destruction of the Mosque and the Dome and the replacement of the Temple of Solomon. Yet, he’s not an orthodox Jew. He’s a Christian. Those tourists who were lynched in 1996 were mistaken for orthodox Jews. Not for Israelis, Israelis and Israeli Arabs see the sites all the time.

The irony about this is that the orthodox Jews are the ones who oppose Zionism because it replaces the laws of divine guidance with secular nationalism. In fact, Zionism was originally seen as a rebellion against the recalcitrant orthodox, rabbinical traditions of the Jews. The Zionists are the ones who pushed the charge to take Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. But since many Zionists are secular and only agree with Zionism for political and cultural reasons, they’re being given more access to the holy sites than orthodox Jews who often oppose the occupation.

The fight for East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount is completely inspired by religion. The battle for Westbank, Gaza, and occupied Arab territory-yeah, that’s political. But Jerusalem is all about religious fervor.


Most are being motivated by extremist/orthodox from both sides to made such a fuss. Under suspicion of Al-Aqsa destruction and to build the Third Temple, also paranoia from Palestinians. Jerusalem's conflict are indeed religious, but that's not the the only reasons why violence acts keep happening from even before 1990. The Palestinians treat Jerusalem's conflicts as part of occupation by Israeli in Gaza, not religion.

At the same time, Palestinian and other Muslim leaders yesterday condemned Israeli excavation work near the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The Israel Antiquities Authority has authorized plans for a bridge to connect the Dung Gate in Jerusalem's Old City to the Mugrabi Gate, located next to the Western Wall and leading to the Temple Mount.

If the idea of 2 states were being implemented, or the nation of Israel and Palestine are present, and made Jerusalem became a Capital for both nations, there won't be more violence acts between them like this. Mostly, it's being motivated by hatred of Israel occupation, thus politics. It's kinda related actually. Especially, when both are anti-semitics or islamophobia.

In history, there was a time when Jerusalem in occupation of Egyptian army led by Saladin and Ottoman empire that permitted all religions to express it freely. Because both Muslims army recognized the three religions, including Armenian to live equally in Jerusalem. When their period ended, British came and made the situations worse as the unrest keeps growing among the 3 religions. I think, what matters is the person who has control over Jerusalem. If the ruler not restrict certain religion and treat all citizens from all religions equally with strict rule that has been agreed among them, then it won't make such dispute surround Jerusalem.

However, that's not the case in current Jerusalem. The one who has bigger control in Jerusalem are being seen as enemy to support one side only. Not to mention, their belief of 'Promised Land' to claim all the lands.


SeraphAlford wrote:

Well, the Al Jazeera article did seem to be borderline propaganda. You should note that it was Al Jazeera English. I don’t know what that branches relation to the mother company is. Still, it was hilarious to me that they reported that the Israeli police forces ‘locked,’ dozens of worshipers inside the mosque when in all actuality they just cut of transportation to EVERYBODY until the situation was stabilized and then returned control to the Muslims.

I think a couple things needs to happen.

First, Israel needs to send a clear message that the Mosque al Aqsa is an untouchable. No one gets to tear it down, no temple of Solomon, no Jewish dominance on the Temple Mount.

Second, they need to make it clear that the Jews will be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount rather or not the Muslims like it.

Third, they need to destroy the state level discrimination against orthodox Jews that they're allowing. The Muslims won't be happy about it but then Israel could walk around giving out free blow jobs and pizza to the Palestinians and Israel would still be torturing innocent protestors.

The fact of the matter is, the Jews were the ones who weren't allowed to pray. The Arabs got what they want. That feels like giving in to terrorism.


If we see the actual footage, there are Muslims 'locked' in the mosque. Look at the video released. I know some of you do not trust Al-Jazeera, I also think some its news were exaggerated. But they have actual footage inside the mosque taken from amateur video. Although, we can't sure about the actual incident, which is are they came inside the mosque to protect themselves from the dispute or because of Israel forces did it. I think, the first one sounds logical to me. Palestinian came inside the mosque by themselves but they can't go out because of the dispute outside. If some of you can't trust Al-Jazeera, just ignore the voice and watch the video only.

First, I agree. But it should be an agreement from both side, in this case, Palestinian government and Israel government. So it could convince both sides to not disturb another religion to pray there. However, the attempts from Israel gov were so suspicious trying to destruct the mosque, by made tunnel, repairing bridge and 'Al-Aqsa conspiracy'. Well, after all, what Palestinians want is Al-Aqsa mosque there. They might could care less about Temple Mount. I'm still not clear about how big is Temple Mount, though. Does it include Al-Aqsa mosque as well?

Second, of course. That's why Jews were being allowed to visit Mount Temple from years ago. No problem with Muslims, in contrast. Israeli Aggression Against Al-Aqsa Mosque from January 2009 that prevented Muslims to pray inside the mosque and make them pray outside. I hope all of you accept VOA reports.

Third, All religions should be allowed in Holy Sites. Moreover Jews, knowing Temple of Mount is the holiest site for them. They still praying there since years ago. There's no problem with Muslims, but when the orthodox Jews were going to build the Third Temple and make a 'foundation stone' without permission and announcement, that's when Palestinian disagreed about it. Not to mention, a victim died because of Israel forces. If you look clearly at the middle of video, Muslims praying while Israel soldiers watching over them with huge guns.

Jews were always allowed to pray, if they don't have hideous intention from orthodox. And Arabs got one victim. this year there. Before 2000, there was many victims came from Palestinian people and the tragedy of Al-Aqsa Massacre in 1990


blancer wrote:

With the news companies today, who knows what happened. As to the question who has the right to that area, my answer is: who knows. Jews were there first. Then muslims. And that is histrorical fact. Ah, christians also, periodically.
I just hope they all kill each other down there so the rest of the world can live in peace, and start thinking about real problems like overpopulation, hunger, poor and homeless etc. All these people just know how to create problems, and no one is offering any real, permanent solution. And the rest of us are spending our precious resources on their little petty squabbles.


With the current situation, it's wise to share the lands and being tolerant to each other. Especially in holy sites, if not the holiest place on earth would always being tainted by blood. This is a problem that needs participation, cooperation and attention from the both sides and the rest of the world when innocent people from both sides suffered enough. This problem came from people itself, thus it's a problem that needs to be solved first to gives solution from everyone's problem like you said.

Thus, this is a problem that needs understanding from people, later on from that understanding, together we could solve the world's problem. We should be united, despite we are different, Unity in Diversity. Well, it might difficult to understand to people who could care less about this petty and bloody conflict so-called 'endless'.


Yei wrote:

I think it says alot about the stupidity of human nature, especially when it comes to religion. So much conflict and political controversy over a little strip of land. As long as both the Muslims and Jews hold on to their fundamental beliefs that they are righteous and have God on their side and that the other side is inferior because of that, there can never be peace. The only solution here that I can see is to somehow hope that next generations on both sides will be more and more secular and eventually be able to identify with the other side.

Alot of them are already at that point, in one of my favourite documentaries "Promises" (a guy goes to Israel and talks to 7 Palestinian and Israeli kids and gets their opinions on everything, and in the end lets them meet each other and it made me cry), we see that the more secular kids on both sides think and want the same thing. But the more religious ones are absolutely insane and say they want the other side to just "disappear" and use religion to back everything they say.

As long as there's a majority of conservative extremists on both sides there won't be any hope, so the key I think is properly educating people there. Most Palestinian kids obviously aren't getting educated properly, and the conservative Jewish kids aren't any better.


I agree, this is mostly based on their own interest and not being considerate to others consequences. Not religion, mostly it's motivated because of political reasons, thus occupation. The next generations, should be taught to understand each other and not being discriminate to other religion or races.

Unfortunately, that seems out of option when the ideology of Promised Land still being implemented and taught by orthodox Jews. And the hatred from Palestinians also cause the conflict much worse. Although I can understand them, seeing their life is in miserable condition, shortage of water, oppression from soldiers and conflict in their neighborhood. It should have third parties that neutral and willing to solve the problems based on laws and giving all of them equal rights to live and express their religion freely, happily and peacefully.
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