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The Cold War Begins
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Posted 11/3/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


azera wrote:

I hate to say this but why cant the Americans mind their own business during that time? Well like you said here that the Americans came in and train local Afghans to fight against the Soviets. The Americans certainly knew very well about the incoming collapse of the USSR. So why cant they just mind their own business, deal with domestic problems first rather than creating the mess that leads to 9/11. Everything in the middle east is a mess now. Ron Paul was right all along.....


That’s what you call isolationism, and it’s a real political movement. In fact, we’re traditional an isolationist nation against things like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, League of Nations, United Nations, or involvement in foreign wars. Unfortunately that didn’t work out very well for us or the rest of the world. People were always trying to drag us into alliances, trying to make us fight their wars. That’s what spoiled our relations with the French. After they helped us in our revolution they expected us to reciprocate but we said that their problems were none of our business and royally shafted them. It was actually a little more complicated than that, but you get the basic idea.

Whenever World War I rolled around we were extremely isolationist. We were still bitter about that brief period of American imperialism, about the Philippines, and about our treatment of the Native Americans. Our involvement in WWI caused an economic depression in a time that had been prosperous. So, by WWII we were even more isolationist than ever.

It was FDR’s isolationism that allowed (and indeed helped,) Stalin, Mussolini, AND Hitler get into power. It could’ve been avoided and we could’ve saved millions of lives. We could’ve ended the war before it happened, prevented all three of these men from taking power.

But actually, our involvement in foreign affairs has been very beneficial. Imagine that we’d been isolationist when Saddam captured Kuwait and prepared to attack Saudi Arabia in 1990. At that time Saddam’s dictatorship sported the fourth largest army in the world, chemical weapons of mass destruction, and scud missiles capable of carrying warheads and reaching Israel. Had we not prevented his advanced he would’ve taken Saudi Arabia and Kuwait giving him control of the world’s capital of oil. He would’ve had fifty percent of the world’s oil supply under his tyranny, and control of the centre of the Islamic world.

He would’ve gained more military, economic, and religious authority than anyone else in the entire world including the United States.


Hmmm US send billions of dollars in economic aid and supply weapons to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. That is what i call supporting. Now they trying to get rid of the brutal dictator by force(Fortunately he have been executed). Pay attention it's a cycle, US create this mad beast called Saddam, in the end they caught and excecute him .But what about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis lying dead on the ground ? There is some absurd cases that the US soldiers raping children, throw grenades at sheeps, throwing puppies off a cliff, making a fool out of themselves. What kind of Operation Iraqi Freedom is this?
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Posted 11/4/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


azera wrote:

I hate to say this but why cant the Americans mind their own business during that time? Well like you said here that the Americans came in and train local Afghans to fight against the Soviets. The Americans certainly knew very well about the incoming collapse of the USSR. So why cant they just mind their own business, deal with domestic problems first rather than creating the mess that leads to 9/11. Everything in the middle east is a mess now. Ron Paul was right all along.....


That’s what you call isolationism, and it’s a real political movement. In fact, we’re traditional an isolationist nation against things like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, League of Nations, United Nations, or involvement in foreign wars. Unfortunately that didn’t work out very well for us or the rest of the world. People were always trying to drag us into alliances, trying to make us fight their wars. That’s what spoiled our relations with the French. After they helped us in our revolution they expected us to reciprocate but we said that their problems were none of our business and royally shafted them. It was actually a little more complicated than that, but you get the basic idea.

Whenever World War I rolled around we were extremely isolationist. We were still bitter about that brief period of American imperialism, about the Philippines, and about our treatment of the Native Americans. Our involvement in WWI caused an economic depression in a time that had been prosperous. So, by WWII we were even more isolationist than ever.

It was FDR’s isolationism that allowed (and indeed helped,) Stalin, Mussolini, AND Hitler get into power. It could’ve been avoided and we could’ve saved millions of lives. We could’ve ended the war before it happened, prevented all three of these men from taking power.

But actually, our involvement in foreign affairs has been very beneficial. Imagine that we’d been isolationist when Saddam captured Kuwait and prepared to attack Saudi Arabia in 1990. At that time Saddam’s dictatorship sported the fourth largest army in the world, chemical weapons of mass destruction, and scud missiles capable of carrying warheads and reaching Israel. Had we not prevented his advanced he would’ve taken Saudi Arabia and Kuwait giving him control of the world’s capital of oil. He would’ve had fifty percent of the world’s oil supply under his tyranny, and control of the centre of the Islamic world.

He would’ve gained more military, economic, and religious authority than anyone else in the entire world including the United States.


After reading this, I see that you have completely different perspective on history then I have. Have you learned that in school/college, or came up with those conclusions yourself? (Considering first two paragraphs mostly).
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Andromeda
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Posted 11/4/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


Real_ZERO wrote:

SeraphAlford wrote:
Fast forward a few years and now we’re facing the very same Mujahedeen we trained to resist soviet invaders in Afghanistan….

America reap what it sown, no more no less.


What are you talking about? We provided the Afghanis with weapons and training to defend themselves from Soviet conquerors. Now they turn them against us? How is that reaping what we sow? We help them so they start attacking us?

And no, the United States did not fund or support al Qaeda or the Taliban. That’s a popular myth I’ll likely cover in another thread. Whenever the soviets attacked Afghanistan virtually everyone knew they were in the wrong. We came in and trained the local Afghanis while foreign groups (such as Al Qaeda,) came to join the fighting. We did not provide funding for the foreign groups, only the native groups. Al Qaeda wouldn’t have even taken funding from us and nor did they need it. They received all their funding from Saudi Arabia.

I’m sorry but I don’t think America did anything wrong training the Mujahedeen.

The common misconception is that the Arab/Muslim world hates America because they feel that America did something wrong to them particularly. That’s not true. At the end of the First Gulf War we were embraced by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Afghanistan, all over the Arab/Muslim world as heroes. The only reason they dislike is because we support Israel, and more recently because of our actions in Iraq.


America wanted to prevent USSR from having a warm-water port; the Soviet Invasion was seen as a [ threat to US influence in the Persian Gulf region. The US was also worried about the USSR gaining access to the Indian Ocean.. wikipedia], Jimmy Carter.

So, right America has helped the Mujahedeen (including Osama) but for its own interests; the CIA Operation Cyclone encouraged the volunteers from the Muslim and Arab states to join the Afghan resistance. The US was lucky to have fighters ready to die, to place them in the front lines, like pawns. Unfortunately, the pawns weren't on a chessboard, thus It seems there are many hands trying to move them, and perhaps sometimes those pawns may make a move by themselves.

Therefore, I see America support for Mujahedeen to resist the Soviet invaders, was backfired on the US forces when they began their invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.
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Posted 11/4/09

Real_ZERO wrote:

America wanted to prevent USSR from having a warm-water port; the Soviet Invasion was seen as a [ threat to US influence in the Persian Gulf region. The US was also worried about the USSR gaining access to the Indian Ocean.. wikipedia], Jimmy Carter.

So, right America has helped the Mujahedeen (including Osama) but for its own interests; the CIA Operation Cyclone encouraged the volunteers from the Muslim and Arab states to join the Afghan resistance. The US was lucky to have fighters ready to die, to place them in the front lines, like pawns. Unfortunately, the pawns weren't on a chessboard, thus It seems there are many hands trying to move them, and perhaps sometimes those pawns may make a move by themselves.

Therefore, I see America support for Mujahedeen to resist the Soviet invaders, was backfired on the US forces when they began their invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.


Whatever our self interest we were helping them defend their country. They were happy to take our assistance one moment and the next they were using it against us. I don’t think that this is reaping what you sow, because while on the one hand we did have mutual interests we were still trying to do something good for them. I think it’s strange that people think that there’s ever been a war fought for only one reason. I do not doubt that we had personal interest, and in fact I pointed out that we did. We were also eager to get some pay back on the soviets for Vietnam and Korea. Anyway, I g2g, I have to study for my test tonight. Pray for me or whatever, it's a big test.
Posted 11/6/09
Cold War is just what we need. No one fights even though a war is officially going on. Tensions build, nukes fly, we all die. Fail.
Posted 11/7/09
There are no cold wars when I take to the battlefield. I finish everything.
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