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Double Standards. Can it be eliminated?
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Posted 11/7/09

SeraphAlford wrote:


drizza wrote:

Well we kind of dwelled off topic but oh well this is interesting as well. I still dont want to dwell too much into nazi germany here. What hitler did and what I am talking about are two different things. As to hitler was killing people and forcing labor on them, not really protecting their citizens or stop violence, I am saying something else. Although you may believe it is racial profiling and you have a point it still doesnt mean we dont increase security in areas where violence is high? Why decrease it or maintain the currrent? Speaking realistically in white neighborhoods where I use to live with my father there is really no violence there. I can literally leave my door open when I leave my house and come back everything still in tact. Not to say all white people are good of course many of them commit crimes and some are notorious for kidnapping children. But can you point out an example of neighborhoods that are largely white that commit crimes? If you can then that means that the media is reporting inaccurate information.

Like you I want to see this number of blacks going to jail decrease. One of the main and silly reasons I believe is possesion of marjiuana (I cant spell that so bear with me.) This is another reason why I wanted Ron Paul to win because he would legalize it therefore we wont be building even bigger prisons for such a small crime. Now a debate on how bad that drug is a different issue as well but if you want to discuss it we can.

It sucks that blacks are being singled out your right but the question is if the behavior doesnt change wil they continue to be singled out? Blacks are being hit the worse by unemployment and many of them drop out of high school and have kids at early ages. When you have no money and your desperate high chances are your gonig to rob someone. You have to eat and you aint got no education to land yourself a decent career. How can we combat this? We just cant keep staying quiet about this it has to be debated and spoken about. I want to see a day where blacks are ignorantly stereotyped. I been to other countries man many people think all blacks do is play sports or rap which is further from the truth. Thats just what they see on TV. Many arabs wanted me to allow them to call me a nigga. All this comes from bad behavior glorified and nothing being done to put a cap on it.


I’m not talking about the holocaust. I’m talking about the Nazi political party prior to that point. Historically we know that it did culminate in genocide and servility, but we also know that this is not where it began. It began with more subtle steps to progress racial alienation. It began with police specifically targeting Jews. What I’m pointing out is that targeting the Japanese in WWII, targeting people who “Look Middle Eastern,” and the continued targeting of blacks is something that can very easily progress into more serious forms of discrimination.

There’s nothing wrong with increasing security in neighborhoods with high crime rates, but that’s not what we’re doing. Even in largely white towns and cities the African American minority makes up the majority of the prison population. We’re talking about blacks from the same or similar backgrounds to the whites who’re being arrested at a much slower rate. It’s not just the arrests either. It’s the police brutality, the disproportionate severity of sentencing.

As far as white areas where crimes rates are high: look no further than where I am. Oklahoma has terrible crime rates despite a relatively small and significantly Caucasian populace. Most of our crimes are family related, child abuse, spousal abuse, ext. Most of those are related to kids. We’ve got the 2nd highest infant mortality rate in the nation and are number one for teenage pregnancies with a disproportionately large percentage of those teenage mothers being impregnated by adults. We’ve also got a serious problem with drunk driving and the abuse methamphetamines and prescription drugs.

Also, did it ever strike you as odd that most of these studies claiming that blacks are more likely to commit crimes were conducted by white people? I’m not saying that they’re lying or that their results are wrong, but that does seem like a conflict of interest to me. Like asking a right wing fundamentalist Christian to do a study concerning the comparative IQs of Evangelicals and Sunni Muslims.

You mentioned Ron Paul and while that would drag us even further off topic, he’s a wing nut. I’m sorry, but the guy wants to withdraw from the United Nations and disband the CIA. I agree that marijuana should be legal but for me that’s not a matter of looking at how it impacts society. It’s a matter of looking at individual rights and liberties. What do I have to do to have rights to my own body, get pregnant? Well, you and I already know that we disagree as to what role the government should play in society.

I think it’s funny that African Americans got hit harder by the unemployment as far as ethnicity goes. Consider who got hit the hardest as far as industries go. The oil industry, coal industry, and other industries dominated by Caucasians. CNN recently reported men were hit significantly harder by the unemployment than women were. They accredited this to the fact that the industries shutting down were largely male industries, like coal and oil. Why doesn’t this apply to race? Since white industries are getting hit the hardest you’d imagine that white employees would get hit the hardest… The only explanation I can come up with is that the companies are favoring white employees over black employees.

That leads me back to my original point. Discrimination starts with a dividing line. I would have no problem with showing our police a chart of crime rates that make no mention of a city’s ethnic background and letting them plot where their efforts need to be concentrated based on that. The problem is that they say, “well this city is largely black and blacks are criminals so let’s focus our effort there.”

But one way or the other, something does need to be done and what we’re doing just isn’t working. Affirmative Action, for example, is designed to level the playing field and provide a counter balance for prevalent racism against African Americans. Yet, African Americans are still living in poverty, getting paid less, having harder times finding jobs despite being better qualified, and being hit harder than the whites by an economic lash against white industries.

I think the solution isn’t to start targeting them with the hope of forcing them into better behavior. I think the solution isn’t to start fighting racism with racism. I think we need to start injecting money into the systems of African American and other poor communities. By doing this we’ll allow the communities to repair themselves. When people have more money they spend more money. Existing businesses prosper and new businesses form and this creates new jobs which generate more money!

The problem is that we’re only putting money into white cities and white neighborhoods. People look at black neighborhoods and balk. Largely because a bunch of white guys in lab coats claim that black people are evil.


I think the solution isn’t to start targeting them with the hope of forcing them into better behavior. I think the solution isn’t to start fighting racism with racism. I think we need to start injecting money into the systems of African American and other poor communities. By doing this we’ll allow the communities to repair themselves. When people have more money they spend more money. Existing businesses prosper and new businesses form and this creates new jobs which generate more money!

The problem is that we’re only putting money into white cities and white neighborhoods. People look at black neighborhoods and balk. Largely because a bunch of white guys in lab coats claim that black people are evil.



When you increase security in poor/crime ridden nieghtborhoods, you aren't targeting anyone by law. the "targeting" is done by the police with thier bigatry, but that cant be helped- both white and black police are guilty of this depending on where they live.

High crime areas tend to be filled with black people. and people in those areas mainly complain about not having enough police protection. So we should give them more police protection.

Throwing money their way will not solve the high crime. 1st of all crime is normal, so no need to treat it as an abnormality.
2nd of all, all of these studies that claim black people are more likly to do crime are biased, misinterpreted, and fault finding.

People who live in high crime areas (reguardless of race), generally are in the poor class of society and crime is displaced their.

Remmeber when Drizza or what ever his name is, said that in his hood its dishonrable to snitch (call the police)? Well this is true in all high crime areas. (They have a distrust for the police with good reason- but thats a whole other debate). Well, that's how crime displacement becomes possible.

Crime displacement is when people in the higher income areas take all of thier crime and dump it in the low income areas. They do this buy making it harder for criminals to do crimes in high income areas. such as calling police when they see a crime.Police generally treat them better because of this (reguardless of race).So what criminals do is simply go to a place where people dont call the police, such as Drizza's hood and do thier crime thier. This is true reguardless of race.Studies show that bigatry is not limited to white cops againsts blacks.Its also prevelent to Black cops agaisnt a white minority.

All im saying is that it isnt race that causes the racially high crime rates, it's displaced crime.

And throwing money in those areas will do nothing to the crime rates in a capitalists society with unequal oppertunity and unequal education.

Now to stay on topic =

double, even triple standards are a part of human nature, every race has to deal with them, and living in a heterogenious society, some of them are not all that bad...such as the difference in a man and woman/ adult and child. The government takes this into account because woman are trained to be weaker and less aggressive then men (its also genetic).Adults have more developed brains then children (also genetic).peace over war

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Posted 11/7/09

JJT2 wrote:
I think the solution isn’t to start targeting them with the hope of forcing them into better behavior. I think the solution isn’t to start fighting racism with racism. I think we need to start injecting money into the systems of African American and other poor communities. By doing this we’ll allow the communities to repair themselves. When people have more money they spend more money. Existing businesses prosper and new businesses form and this creates new jobs which generate more money!

The problem is that we’re only putting money into white cities and white neighborhoods. People look at black neighborhoods and balk. Largely because a bunch of white guys in lab coats claim that black people are evil.



When you increase security in poor/crime ridden nieghtborhoods, you aren't targeting anyone by law. the "targeting" is done by the police with thier bigatry, but that cant be helped- both white and black police are guilty of this depending on where they live.

High crime areas tend to be filled with black people. and people in those areas mainly complain about not having enough police protection. So we should give them more police protection.

Throwing money their way will not solve the high crime. 1st of all crime is normal, so no need to treat it as an abnormality.
2nd of all, all of these studies that claim black people are more likly to do crime are biased, misinterpreted, and fault finding.

People who live in high crime areas (reguardless of race), generally are in the poor class of society and crime is displaced their.

Remmeber when Drizza or what ever his name is, said that in his hood its dishonrable to snitch (call the police)? Well this is true in all high crime areas. (They have a distrust for the police with good reason- but thats a whole other debate). Well, that's how crime displacement becomes possible.

Crime displacement is when people in the higher income areas take all of thier crime and dump it in the low income areas. They do this buy making it harder for criminals to do crimes in high income areas. such as calling police when they see a crime.Police generally treat them better because of this (reguardless of race).So what criminals do is simply go to a place where people dont call the police, such as Drizza's hood and do thier crime thier. This is true reguardless of race.Studies show that bigatry is not limited to white cops againsts blacks.Its also prevelent to Black cops agaisnt a white minority.

All im saying is that it isnt race that causes the racially high crime rates, it's displaced crime.

And throwing money in those areas will do nothing to the crime rates in a capitalists society with unequal oppertunity and unequal education.

Now to stay on topic =

double, even triple standards are a part of human nature, every race has to deal with them, and living in a heterogenious society, some of them are not all that bad...such as the difference in a man and woman/ adult and child. The government takes this into account because woman are trained to be weaker and less aggressive then men (its also genetic).Adults have more developed brains then children (also genetic).peace over war



Like I said, I have no problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because crime rates are high. I do have a problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because African Americans compose a significant measure of the population.

The discrimination is not only on the hands of individual police. It’s a state level, de jure issue. It’s weeded into the entire system. Not only do the police target blacks, they’re encouraged to do so. They’re rewarded for doing so. Then, in addition, the legal system steps in and African Americans wind up facing harder sentences for smaller crimes. Again, 90% of serial killers are Caucasian, but roughly the same margin of death row inmates is African American. How is it that about 1 out of every 10 Americans is black and about 9 out o every 10 Americans facing capital punishment is black?

Because our legal system is flawed, dominated by whites even in black areas, and generally in need of adjustment.

When I said inject money into the system I didn’t mean to randomly throw it off rooftops and let whoever finds it have it. I wasn’t saying just to toss money their way. I was talking about emulating the success of programs like those of FDR’s Worker’s Progress Administration. The WPA as well as the CCC employed more than ten million Americans across the nation during the Great Depression on useful projects like repairing roads, building schools, repairing sewage systems, constructing playgrounds, firefighting, and police work.

By doing this we’ll not only provide employment for the unemployed, we’ll give them the opportunities that they need to make an honest living while also improving the conditions in which they live, making their neighborhoods nicer places. The employment also provides motivation for getting off drugs and an alternative to stealing. Yes, the solution would be socialistic, but so what? It’s a temporary condition to provide permanent relief, recovery, and reform. Then you let the natural order take its place.
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Posted 11/7/09

drizza wrote:

I bought this up because I notice that double standards can really kill any kind of healthy debate and criticism. Lets take the race relation double standards in America. Now me I personally believe all people should be treated equally regardless of race, religion, and gender. But these silent double standards hamper this. You see I want to get down to the black and white double standards that exist. Everyone know it is common knowledge that if you criticize a black man you are a racist but an african american can readily call anyone racist and not take to much backlash. I believe by us sustaining this relationship we can never get down to the problem. Slavery has ended 100 years ago yet it is still "the white man this" or the "black man that". I mean none of us lived in that time period so why are we so hatefull? Does anyone agree that we should have an open discussion on race relations? Should the media always jump to on every racial case and blow it up? I believe the media does that for ratings honestly it just pisses me off especially more when someone says a racist thing to an african american, he is punished but it is still like we demand more, now we want him to lose his job. Perfect example was Don Imus. Let me first state yes it was wrong for him to call those girls, "Nappy headed lil hoes". At the same time he apologized, met up with the girls and talked to them. They forgave him, after that that should have been the end of that whole story but instead you have Al phony ass Sharpton still going on and on about this. This is why old wounds never tend to close because people always tend to bring up some sad thing that happened in the past to justify their stance. Some of them even do it maliciously. If we cant open mindly discuss this issue this will stay the same for the years to come which is ridicoulus.

Next thing religion (oh man here comes the bomb ). You know really this is the new double standard in my opinion. Right now as it stands due to some events that taken place certain people of some religious groups are being stereotyped because of the actions that others take. This includes largest muslims and jews mainly. On the one hand you have the Jew, due to Israel's actions some hidden anti-semities who never really liked jews to begin with are all jumping on the, "lets criticize Israel boat" and rather criticizing the content on what Israel is doing they try to relate it to some type of jewish dominance behavior. The same thing happens with muslims although there isn't any deragatory name for critizing them many are being stereoype for being racist, all of them are terrorist, treat women badly. We dont really criticize the content of their behavior without being hatefull towards the religion. Now with these two the question is how can anyone talk about the important issues that do matter without the smear words? One day can a muslim effectively criticize an Israeli or any jew without being called a racist? Can a jew do the same without being called a zionist? How can this cycle break?

In conclusion we should all be pissed how the media is blowing up these issues leaving old wounds open and issues never to be resolved. But us allowing them to do that people will continue to suffer and be seperated into their little groups. What do you guys think?


well the media is biased, fault finding, and profit motivated, so there are just doing their job. I believe double standards are natural, they aren't racists. they are simply a product of how our brains discriminate between things.Are they rediculas sometimes? sure. Do they trample over our freedoms garanteed by the constitution? sure. Are they an overall pain in the ass? sure.

But the problem is how we percieve these double standards. If we dont take them seriously, they will just become a joke with no legal action taken behind them. Do this in front of your friends, family, or peers. but if u want to go on air and get cocky (Don Imus), its better to remain politicaly correct, reguardless of your intentions.

We let the profit movtivated media define what racisms is, as well as any other contriversal term. Because of this we let the media define our customs and behaviors. In stead of letting the media mediate our culture, we should take control and ignore the media and define racism ourselves. When we see that double standards are nothing to be taken seriously, we will start to ignore them and treat them as a joke, which is what they are.

Because REAL racist dont abide by double standards, they have ONE standard; and we should to.peace over war
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Posted 11/7/09


SeraphAlford wrote:


JJT2 wrote:
I think the solution isn’t to start targeting them with the hope of forcing them into better behavior. I think the solution isn’t to start fighting racism with racism. I think we need to start injecting money into the systems of African American and other poor communities. By doing this we’ll allow the communities to repair themselves. When people have more money they spend more money. Existing businesses prosper and new businesses form and this creates new jobs which generate more money!

The problem is that we’re only putting money into white cities and white neighborhoods. People look at black neighborhoods and balk. Largely because a bunch of white guys in lab coats claim that black people are evil.



When you increase security in poor/crime ridden nieghtborhoods, you aren't targeting anyone by law. the "targeting" is done by the police with thier bigatry, but that cant be helped- both white and black police are guilty of this depending on where they live.

High crime areas tend to be filled with black people. and people in those areas mainly complain about not having enough police protection. So we should give them more police protection.

Throwing money their way will not solve the high crime. 1st of all crime is normal, so no need to treat it as an abnormality.
2nd of all, all of these studies that claim black people are more likly to do crime are biased, misinterpreted, and fault finding.

People who live in high crime areas (reguardless of race), generally are in the poor class of society and crime is displaced their.

Remmeber when Drizza or what ever his name is, said that in his hood its dishonrable to snitch (call the police)? Well this is true in all high crime areas. (They have a distrust for the police with good reason- but thats a whole other debate). Well, that's how crime displacement becomes possible.

Crime displacement is when people in the higher income areas take all of thier crime and dump it in the low income areas. They do this buy making it harder for criminals to do crimes in high income areas. such as calling police when they see a crime.Police generally treat them better because of this (reguardless of race).So what criminals do is simply go to a place where people dont call the police, such as Drizza's hood and do thier crime thier. This is true reguardless of race.Studies show that bigatry is not limited to white cops againsts blacks.Its also prevelent to Black cops agaisnt a white minority.

All im saying is that it isnt race that causes the racially high crime rates, it's displaced crime.

And throwing money in those areas will do nothing to the crime rates in a capitalists society with unequal oppertunity and unequal education.

Now to stay on topic =

double, even triple standards are a part of human nature, every race has to deal with them, and living in a heterogenious society, some of them are not all that bad...such as the difference in a man and woman/ adult and child. The government takes this into account because woman are trained to be weaker and less aggressive then men (its also genetic).Adults have more developed brains then children (also genetic).peace over war



Like I said, I have no problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because crime rates are high. I do have a problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because African Americans compose a significant measure of the population.

The discrimination is not only on the hands of individual police. It’s a state level, de jure issue. It’s weeded into the entire system. Not only do the police target blacks, they’re encouraged to do so. They’re rewarded for doing so. Then, in addition, the legal system steps in and African Americans wind up facing harder sentences for smaller crimes. Again, 90% of serial killers are Caucasian, but roughly the same margin of death row inmates is African American. How is it that about 1 out of every 10 Americans is black and about 9 out o every 10 Americans facing capital punishment is black?

Because our legal system is flawed, dominated by whites even in black areas, and generally in need of adjustment.

When I said inject money into the system I didn’t mean to randomly throw it off rooftops and let whoever finds it have it. I wasn’t saying just to toss money their way. I was talking about emulating the success of programs like those of FDR’s Worker’s Progress Administration. The WPA as well as the CCC employed more than ten million Americans across the nation during the Great Depression on useful projects like repairing roads, building schools, repairing sewage systems, constructing playgrounds, firefighting, and police work.

By doing this we’ll not only provide employment for the unemployed, we’ll give them the opportunities that they need to make an honest living while also improving the conditions in which they live, making their neighborhoods nicer places. The employment also provides motivation for getting off drugs and an alternative to stealing. Yes, the solution would be socialistic, but so what? It’s a temporary condition to provide permanent relief, recovery, and reform. Then you let the natural order take its place.


Like I said, I have no problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because crime rates are high. I do have a problem with increasing security in neighborhoods because African Americans compose a significant measure of the population.

and what does thier race have to do with it?

The discrimination is not only on the hands of individual police. It’s a state level, de jure issue. It’s weeded into the entire system. Not only do the police target blacks, they’re encouraged to do so. They’re rewarded for doing so. Then, in addition, the legal system steps in and African Americans wind up facing harder sentences for smaller crimes. Again, 90% of serial killers are Caucasian, but roughly the same margin of death row inmates is African American. How is it that about 1 out of every 10 Americans is black and about 9 out o every 10 Americans facing capital punishment is black?

if this is really an issue, just get rid of the death penalty, and besides i have already explained why this is- People displace crime to lower income areas, which are composed of black people mostly.And of course if u add the media, stereotypes, police bigatry, and politics into this- you will get some justification for the system being racists.
But this issue has nothing to do with race, rather it's the disproportionate amount of crime being pushed on low income areas.This is where the entire issue starts. This is what leads to all of the racial claims. It just so happens that black people live in these low crime areas, where 12% are doing the crimes under a regular basis, this leads people to believe all black people are doing the crimes.And it just snowballs from there.This is why they target black people. Because they r the one's doing the crime, while other crimes done by other people of different races in different socio economic classes are overlooked.

the legal system isnt racists, it is just based on discretion. Discretion guided by the displacement of crime.

By doing this we’ll not only provide employment for the unemployed, we’ll give them the opportunities that they need to make an honest living while also improving the conditions in which they live, making their neighborhoods nicer places.

The problem isnt that they lack opportunities, they lack equal opportunities. Without equal opportunities, they have no reason to give up thier drug trafficing (that they get away with) for an "honest living" making 90% less then they were selling the drugs.

As long as they dont recieve equal opportunities and equal education, all a better looking hood will do is give the drug sellers a better,cleaner place to sell drugs.

I mean why do people do crime in the 1st place? because they want something out of it. Whether its immediate gratification, or money, it has its benefits. When they dont get punished for thier crimes, they reak the benefits without the threat of legal cost. More jobs/better looking hood isnt going to solve this.If the crime doesnt get evenly distributed, then no one is going to be interested in an "honest living".
They want the "American Dream", and since they cant get it by legal means (because of unequal education/oppotunities), they will get it by illegal means (selling drugs). peace over war

Posted 11/8/09 , edited 11/8/09

JJT2 wrote:
I mean why do people do crime in the 1st place? because they want something out of it. Whether its immediate gratification, or money, it has its benefits. When they dont get punished for thier crimes, they reak the benefits without the threat of legal cost. More jobs/better looking hood isnt going to solve this.If the crime doesnt get evenly distributed, then no one is going to be interested in an "honest living".
They want the "American Dream", and since they cant get it by legal means (because of unequal education/oppotunities), they will get it by illegal means (selling drugs). peace over war

I think there's a possibility that crimes in the upper-class weren't being properly reported. When corruption can exist in all level of social classes.

I also think that the only people who are less likely to be corrupted are those who can resist their urge for instant gratification. When they have above average self-awareness, and thus can better self-regulate themselves toward a higher purpose.
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Posted 11/8/09 , edited 11/8/09

SeraphAlford wrote:

You hear that guys? Now that slavery has ended there’s no more racism! With all due respect, Drizza, I have to profoundly disagree. African American’s have a reason to be outraged. I’ve gone over this in another thread. I’ll try to find the post and just copy it over, but consider that African Americans make up less than 13% of the US population and YET more than 70% of the prison population. Even though 90% of serial killers in America (the only people we should be putting to death if any at all,) are Caucasian African Americans are also significantly more likely (many times more likely,) to be sentenced to capital punishment. Those who’re sentenced are less likely to have the ruling overturned than a white person in comparable circumstances.


While this is all true, do you think that all black people who cry "racism!" at every statement a white person makes is aware of all of these facts? Do you think most people in general are even aware of these facts? It's pretty clear that they aren't, so even if they have just reason to be racially sensitive, most aren't aware of that and cry "racism!" for other, more unjust reasons.

I live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I've seen white people get harassed and even beat up just for "acting black." Non-black people and black people who don't "act black" (including myself) can't even approach most black people in this area without getting dirty looks, or being insulted, or getting pushed around or even attacked. The only reason why this happens is because we either don't look like them or we don't act like them. I don't live in a high crime area either, although it would be technically considered one if all of the instances of harassment were reported. What statistics justify this behavior?

In every school I've been to, every time a black kid gets tossed out of class by a non-black teacher for being blatantly disruptive, they call the teacher racist. Every time a non-black teacher even mentions slavery in class as an example for whatever we're discussing, a black kid always calls them racist. Every time a bunch of black kids get suspended when they all did something stupid and against the rules, they say the school is racist. Every time a black kid uses a derogatory racial slur (which includes much more than just the N word) and a non-black teacher reprimands them for it, they call the teacher racist. On top of all this, every school I've been to has been racially diverse and overall more tolerant of different races, so events like these occur much less frequently in my schools than they do in every other school in my district. What justifies this behavior?


I have a teacher in my school who is white, and she used to teach at an all-black school, and she occasionally tells stories about how many of the parents of those kids told her she had no business teaching there, that she was not good enough to teach black kids simply because she's white, that she should go back to the suburbs and be with her own people. She was often stalked and received many death threats from the students, had her property vandalized by the students, and was even on the news once when some of the students came to her house to carry out their death threat, all just because she was white. Now what statistics justify this behavior? It's evident that she's not racist and that she doesn't think of all black people negatively, since the class that I have her has all black people in it, and we get along great with her.


What I think is funny is that anytime you call a white person racist everyone accuses you of pulling the race card, even if that person is legitimately racist.

In every example I listed, no one ever accused those students of pulling the race card, and the teachers weren't even racist, they were just doing their job by handling insubordinate students.


Meanwhile, if you call a black person racist everyone sits around and nods along like you’ve just presented an intriguing new perspective.

The few times I've called a black person racist when they were clearly being racist, I got a million threats tossed at me by every other black person in the area.


Blacks are less like to get a job even if they’re more qualified.

Where did you get this from? It may be true for certain jobs, but overall, as far as I know, affirmative action is still helping black people get an advantage over white people when it comes to getting a job.


The quantum disadvantages of being African American in America still exist even if slavery has magically disappeared.


As a black guy, I really don't see any of these disadvantages, at least not due to other races. I've got tons of people shoving money in my face for college just because I'm black. Most hardships and bad experiences in my life have been due to people of my own race harassing me because I "act white," or because they accuse me of acting like I'm better than them because I get better grades than some of them and don't socialize with them, even though the reason why I don't socialize with them is because they won't let me.


Anytime a black person acknowledges that there is some racial animosity in our society we accuse them of calling the race card or being racist themselves.


Is that why people like Al Sharpton are able to turn any small racially-charged incident into a national emergency and make the entire nation hate the white people involved and make the black people look like martyrs?


That’s bull shit. I’m sorry, I think you and I are the opposite ends of this issue. I think the double standard is against blacks.


I think there are double standards against both sides in different areas of society. It's unwise to say that only one side has it bad.
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Posted 11/8/09 , edited 11/8/09
'If White America is as racist as a few of you think it is... Do you really think more than 80% of sports stars would be black as they are now?"

I think a pointed this out once before. 'As a kid I been many places.. Fathers military. Well as a kid I got to go to school in Germany, and Japan. Later we move to Louisiana wile there I went to a practically all black school. At the time I was just back from a practically all Japanese school and new nothing of racism been around all different types of people my hole life. 'You think how DomFortress talks about the Japanese I would have learn as a kid about racism from them, but there always kind and respectful never shown any sign of being racist at any time. But wen living down Louisiana It became common for me to get death threats every day, just because I was white. But it was not just me, I made friends with a chines family living down there as well. His son also was getting the same treatment. So its not that there racist to white people in Louisiana but racist to all other races but the black.
So from my experience is that the black race has been showing me there more racist than any other group of people. I lived around the world. And the only time I even got a death threat was in America down in Louisiana by the majority of the people there, FOR NOT BEING BLACK! So i am sorry if I do not agree with some of your stance on racism, I have seen first hand racism and it comes mostly from the black community from my experience. (In the end the black communities have only them selves to blame for the majority of there problems the have today. That includes Profiling, they step into there own stereotype than bitch that the rest of the world is being racist for profiling them.
"So I am sorry if from my experience the American Black persons is the most racist group of people I have met." (ps.. 2 of my best friends are black, so I am not talking about everyone, just the majority of them.)
Posted 11/8/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:
I live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I've seen white people get harassed and even beat up just for "acting black." Non-black people and black people who don't "act black" (including myself) can't even approach most black people in this area without getting dirty looks, or being insulted, or getting pushed around or even attacked. The only reason why this happens is because we either don't look like them or we don't act like them. I don't live in a high crime area either, although it would be technically considered one if all of the instances of harassment were reported. What statistics justify this behavior?

In every school I've been to, every time a black kid gets tossed out of class by a non-black teacher for being blatantly disruptive, they call the teacher racist. Every time a non-black teacher even mentions slavery in class as an example for whatever we're discussing, a black kid always calls them racist. Every time a bunch of black kids get suspended when they all did something stupid and against the rules, they say the school is racist. Every time a black kid uses a derogatory racial slur (which includes much more than just the N word) and a non-black teacher reprimands them for it, they call the teacher racist. On top of all this, every school I've been to has been racially diverse and overall more tolerant of different races, so events like these occur much less frequently in my schools than they do in every other school in my district. What justifies this behavior?


I have a teacher in my school who is white, and she used to teach at an all-black school, and she occasionally tells stories about how many of the parents of those kids told her she had no business teaching there, that she was not good enough to teach black kids simply because she's white, that she should go back to the suburbs and be with her own people. She was often stalked and received many death threats from the students, had her property vandalized by the students, and was even on the news once when some of the students came to her house to carry out their death threat, all just because she was white. Now what statistics justify this behavior? It's evident that she's not racist and that she doesn't think of all black people negatively, since the class that I have her has all black people in it, and we get along great with her.


What I think is funny is that anytime you call a white person racist everyone accuses you of pulling the race card, even if that person is legitimately racist.

In every example I listed, no one ever accused those students of pulling the race card, and the teachers weren't even racist, they were just doing their job by handling insubordinate students.


Meanwhile, if you call a black person racist everyone sits around and nods along like you’ve just presented an intriguing new perspective.

The few times I've called a black person racist when they were clearly being racist, I got a million threats tossed at me by every other black person in the area.


Blacks are less like to get a job even if they’re more qualified.

Where did you get this from? It may be true for certain jobs, but overall, as far as I know, affirmative action is still helping black people get an advantage over white people when it comes to getting a job.


The quantum disadvantages of being African American in America still exist even if slavery has magically disappeared.


As a black guy, I really don't see any of these disadvantages, at least not due to other races. I've got tons of people shoving money in my face for college just because I'm black. Most hardships and bad experiences in my life have been due to people of my own race harassing me because I "act white," or because they accuse me of acting like I'm better than them because I get better grades than some of them and don't socialize with them, even though the reason why I don't socialize with them is because they won't let me.


Anytime a black person acknowledges that there is some racial animosity in our society we accuse them of calling the race card or being racist themselves.


Is that why people like Al Sharpton are able to turn any small racially-charged incident into a national emergency and make the entire nation hate the white people involved and make the black people look like martyrs?


That’s bull shit. I’m sorry, I think you and I are the opposite ends of this issue. I think the double standard is against blacks.


I think there are double standards against both sides in different areas of society. It's unwise to say that only one side has it bad.

I think the view you're presenting to us is a situation when a majority of African Americans automatically distorted their experiences with the idea of racism. This is true even to yourself, when you only conducted yourself properly among your peers. If I didn't know any better, I would say you got bullied by your own kind. While they used racism as an excuse to exercise their revenge, on a society that they unwisely warped by none other than themselves.


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'If White America is as racist as a few of you think it is... Do you really think more than 80% of sports stars would be black as they are now?"

I think a pointed this out once before. 'As a kid I been many places.. Fathers military. Well as a kid I got to go to school in Germany, and Japan. Later we move to Louisiana wile there I went to a practically all black school. At the time I was just back from a practically all Japanese school and new nothing of racism been around all different types of people my hole life. 'You think how DomFortress talks about the Japanese I would have learn as a kid about racism from them, but there always kind and respectful never shown any sign of being racist at any time. But wen living down Louisiana It became common for me to get death threats every day, just because I was white. But it was not just me, I made friends with a chines family living down there as well. His son also was getting the same treatment. So its not that there racist to white people in Louisiana but racist to all other races but the black.
So from my experience is that the black race has been showing me there more racist than any other group of people. I lived around the world. And the only time I even got a death threat was in America down in Louisiana by the majority of the people there, FOR NOT BEING BLACK! So i am sorry if I do not agree with some of your stance on racism, I have seen first hand racism and it comes mostly from the black community from my experience. (In the end the black communities have only them selves to blame for the majority of there problems the have today. That includes Profiling, they step into there own stereotype than bitch that the rest of the world is being racist for profiling them.
"So I am sorry if from my experience the American Black persons is the most racist group of people I have met." (ps.. 2 of my best friends are black, so I am not talking about everyone, just the majority of them.)

Even when the African Americans in Louisiana do appear to act more aggressive to you, that's not to say that the Japanese didn't know about their own form of covert abuse. When Japanese psychology prefer to normalize mental and psychological illnesses. Perhaps that's how they don't see marketing virtual child pornography as a problem, when it's actually normalizing pedophilia.
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While this is all true, do you think that all black people who cry "racism!" at every statement a white person makes is aware of all of these facts? Do you think most people in general are even aware of these facts? It's pretty clear that they aren't, so even if they have just reason to be racially sensitive, most aren't aware of that and cry "racism!" for other, more unjust reasons.


I don’t think that the typical African American can cite statistics at you like I can, but the statistics are only cited to affirm experience. African Americans experience the discrimination in their daily lives; it’s a truth self evident. Go back to Martin Luther King Jr.’s “I Had a Dream,” speech. At no point does he bring up numbers or polls or surveys or statistics and yet the content is still accepted as accurate to this day: because it was an understood truth evidenced by experience. The statistics are just to expand that understanding to people who haven’t experienced it himself.


I live in a predominantly black neighborhood, and I've seen white people get harassed and even beat up just for "acting black." Non-black people and black people who don't "act black" (including myself) can't even approach most black people in this area without getting dirty looks, or being insulted, or getting pushed around or even attacked.


Well of course, because black people--like white people--are subjects of society, and our dominantly white society teaches people to be prejudice against African Americans just like our dominantly heterosexual society teaches us to be prejudice against homosexuals. A study involving virtual simulations and gut reactions showed that police officers of any ethnicity are all more likely to open fire an unarmed African American suspect than a comparable suspect of any other ethnicity. There was another study where two dolls that looked exactly the same except that one was white and one as black were brought into kindergarten classrooms. The children were asked “which doll is ugly,” and even the black children pointed at the black doll.

People make this assumption that just because you belong to a group you cannot be prejudice against that group. Yet, I’m a Christian and I tend to stereotype Christians as narrow minded right-wingers. I know this is logically wrong, but I’m still guilty of making the presumption when I meet somebody who is open with their religious classification. There’s a book called, “Female Chauvinist Pigs,” addressing this same issue amongst women and feminists.

So this prejudice your experiencing, (which you know is real without citing statistics,) which you’re exposing, which you’re pointing out, is very real and also something that needs to be addressed. We’re brainwashing our own children, black or white, to buy into this idea of what a black person ‘is.’ I’m reminded once more of Harlem’s “The New Negro,” from the early 1920s. (Actually I think it was released in 1919, but it was around that time period anyway. You know, the Harlem Renaissance and everything.)


The only reason why this happens is because we either don't look like them or we don't act like them. I don't live in a high crime area either, although it would be technically considered one if all of the instances of harassment were reported. What statistics justify this behavior?


No statistic justifies any form of prejudice. There’s no such thing as rational racism as, say, Norman Finkelstein suggests in his “Beyond Chutzpah.” African Americans who’re prejudice against African Americans, African Americans who’re prejudice against white people, they’re no better or worse than Caucasians that are prejudiced against black people. Yet, this does not mean that we don’t need to address our system’s malfunction, our society’s indoctrination into racism.


In every school I've been to, every time a black kid gets tossed out of class by a non-black teacher for being blatantly disruptive, they call the teacher racist. Every time a non-black teacher even mentions slavery in class as an example for whatever we're discussing, a black kid always calls them racist. Every time a bunch of black kids get suspended when they all did something stupid and against the rules, they say the school is racist. Every time a black kid uses a derogatory racial slur (which includes much more than just the N word) and a non-black teacher reprimands them for it, they call the teacher racist. On top of all this, every school I've been to has been racially diverse and overall more tolerant of different races, so events like these occur much less frequently in my schools than they do in every other school in my district. What justifies this behavior?


Nothing, they’re wrong. People who cry racism whenever they’re just being jackasses are like girls who consent to sex and then claim rape. It’s a disgusting and morally abhorrent. Yet, we don’t say “the rape card,” because we don’t want to discourage rape victims from coming out and exposing their assailants. Let me provide an example from my personal life.

I used to live in a small town and there was this little fat girl with bad acne and terrible hygiene. Everybody made fun of her, and she was consequently an attention whore. She was so desperate to gain the approval, or at least pity, of her peers that she constantly made a fool of herself. One day she finally got a boyfriend from another town. One day this girl came and announced to us that she planned to have sex with him for the first time that night. The next day she came to school crying that he raped her. Well, she later admitted that she was full of shit and made it up. That’s unjustifiable. What an accusation to make!

A few weeks later a friend of hers got raped. This girl was in much the same boat. She was cleanly, intelligent, but plump and homely. All and all she was a really good kid, an honest person, and a –real- Christian, albeit imperfect like the rest of us. She was an eighth grader when it happened. She made a mistake: a man offered to let her have a sip of beer if she came up to his hotel room. She was a stupid, imperfect kid. She was a naïve small town girl in a conservative family. She’d never had a beer, never even tasted it. She went up and the rest is predictable and disgusting to reflect upon.

Point is, she came to school a few days later but was too afraid to tell anybody what’d happened. Her parents noticed some bruises, noticed she was acting weird, and assumed she’d gotten into an argument with one of her friends or something along that nature. That, in a small town, a girl could be legitimately raped was unheard of. She didn’t tell anybody. A while later the perpetrator, the bastard, got drunk and was bragging about it to none other than the town sheriff’s daughter. He was promptly arrested, and under questioning this girl admitted that it’d happened. When they asked her why she stayed quiet, she did not think anyone would believe her.

The liar, the one who pretended to get raped, got chased out of the school. People treated her like shit about it, and rightfully so. But, the real victim saw this and feared the same treatment.

And that’s what the race card is. It’s a tool that serves a purpose: to call people out when they’re bullshitting about race. Unfortunately, it’s also a device widely employed to silence people who’ve really been the victim of racial hatred. Just like hazing a teenage girl who claims she’d been raped even if you have no real method of knowing rather or not she’s told the truth.

People always assume that whenever a black person cries racism it’s ‘calling the race card.’ Now with teenagers and children this is more expectable, but we do this to adults! We do this to completely rational African Americans. Obama, a completely rational man, a highly intelligent man, a politicians but one who the left wing at least considers honest. Yet, even amongst the left wing white people accused him of calling the race card and his comment about his unique struggles turned out to be bad decision.

BUT HE WAS RIGHT! Blacks do have unique struggles in political and professional careers that aren’t present for whites. Blacks have their unique obstacles to overcome just as women, fat people, gays, Jews, Muslims, secular individuals, Hispanics, ext, ext, and ext.


I have a teacher in my school who is white, and she used to teach at an all-black school, and she occasionally tells stories about how many of the parents of those kids told her she had no business teaching there, that she was not good enough to teach black kids simply because she's white, that she should go back to the suburbs and be with her own people. She was often stalked and received many death threats from the students, had her property vandalized by the students, and was even on the news once when some of the students came to her house to carry out their death threat, all just because she was white. Now what statistics justify this behavior? It's evident that she's not racist and that she doesn't think of all black people negatively, since the class that I have her has all black people in it, and we get along great with her.


This behavior is wrong, but we don’t accept it from either side so it’s not a double standard against white people. If it was a black person at an all white school we’d be just as upset and we’d put it on the news either way. On the flip side, since it’s a white woman at an all black school we assume that she wasn’t doing anything racist and the students were just making shit up. Maybe she really did something racist that just never made it to the media? Maybe the white dominated media did that thing it does, you know, neglects to mention datums and bits of evidence relevant to the topic if they don’t want you to hear it? That way they can quietly push their agenda?


In every example I listed, no one ever accused those students of pulling the race card, and the teachers weren't even racist, they were just doing their job by handling insubordinate students.


You’re accusing them of calling the race card in this very post, even if not directly. Just like how nobody told the liar that she was pulling the rape card, but they were accusing her of doing so in other words.


The few times I've called a black person racist when they were clearly being racist, I got a million threats tossed at me by every other black person in the area.


I’ve called a black person racist before and everybody agreed with me so that’s just a variation in experience. There are always exceptions when talking about groups of people. You cannot completely generalize. Whatever the case, next time you accuse a black person of being racist do it in front of a group of white people and I bet they’ll all agree with you.


Where did you get this from? It may be true for certain jobs, but overall, as far as I know, affirmative action is still helping black people get an advantage over white people when it comes to getting a job.


Actually it was on the Dr. Phil show. This conservative redneck guy was saying that industrialized racism no longer exists and this black man brought up these studies that proved him wrong. Like, in one study they sent applications to local businesses across the nation and in different fields of work or something along those lines. The applications were false but the businesses did not know this. On some applications they’d put a traditionally African American names and under the address they chose an area known to have a largely African American population. Then on others they would choose a traditionally Caucasian name and white neighborhood with comparable conditions. They found that even if the African American application had the better credentials the white person was more likely to get called back for the interview.


As a black guy, I really don't see any of these disadvantages, at least not due to other races. I've got tons of people shoving money in my face for college just because I'm black. Most hardships and bad experiences in my life have been due to people of my own race harassing me because I "act white," or because they accuse me of acting like I'm better than them because I get better grades than some of them and don't socialize with them, even though the reason why I don't socialize with them is because they won't let me.

The racism against blacks programmed by white society into blacks (the BBA for example is owned by Viacom, a Caucasian dominated company owned by a white guy,) is in fact one obstacle of being black.

I don’t know. I’ve seen a lot of blatantly racist things against blacks but not whites. For example, I went to work at a grocery store and even though I was just starting I made more money than all the black people there except the African American manager, who was fired for ‘stealing.’ I made more than the women too, and it wasn’t just me. The girls and the blacks were getting paid less than all the white people. The boss acted like they had to prove themselves, but I never proved myself once. I hated that job; I was bored out of my mind. All we did was sweep and straighten packages all day while that stupid ass music played in the background. I spent all my time praying nobody would ask me where to find something because I couldn’t for the life of me remember. I was a terrible employee there, at best.

When I worked at Braum’s I was a great employee and as far as management went, I don’t think any of the managers were racist at all. Shelly was sexist, admitted that her bad relationship with her father made her hate men, but other than that they were all pretty equal opportunity. But we hired a lot of black people and never once did any call me a racial slur. Yet, on three occasions on employee used the N word to attack another, black, employee.

At school the teachers always treated the African Americans like they were going to be extra trouble.

I’ve never one seen a black woman clench her purse when a white guy walks by. When white women do this they always defend themselves, “Well look how he’s dressed, that’s his fault…” but a white guy could walk up to her with a pedophile beard, rapist glasses, and a public masturbated trench coat and she’d probably just give him a judgmental glower.

I don’t know. I never noticed this very bad in Washington. Now I live in Oklahoma so maybe that explains the different experiences. Maybe this isn’t as bad across the nation as it is here in America’s pubic strip, but I do notice inequalities quite frequently.


Is that why people like Al Sharpton are able to turn any small racially-charged incident into a national emergency and make the entire nation hate the white people involved and make the black people look like martyrs?


Al Sharpton is accused of calling the race card and making a small incident into something big all the time. He’s actually famous for this. They made a joke about it on the second episode of the first season of Boston Legal. The funny thing is that he also does a lot of non-race related things and we over look that. He’s known for ‘calling the race card,’ but he’s brought up other issues and made a small thing big in other areas before too. He does more than talk about race. He spoke at Michael Jackson’s funeral, for example.

Besides, the reason he’s successful is because he talks so damn well that nobody knows how to retaliate. He takes your words away. That makes his arguments incredibly hard to defeat. It’s the same reason Obama was so unstoppable. Because he knew how to spin an issue and he was a good public speaker.

A public speaker on Sharpton’s level could do the exact same thing for white people, he could make white people into martyrs over nothing.


I think there are double standards against both sides in different areas of society. It's unwise to say that only one side has it bad.


I was talking about this particular double standard. There is racism against whites, and a whole hell of a lot.
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Posted 11/8/09

SeraphAlford wrote:
I was talking about this particular double standard. There is racism against whites, and a whole hell of a lot.


Well this clears things up. I thought you were trying to demonstrate that black people were the main ones who experience racism and that white people rarely do.
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Posted 11/9/09

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'If White America is as racist as a few of you think it is... Do you really think more than 80% of sports stars would be black as they are now?"

I think a pointed this out once before. 'As a kid I been many places.. Fathers military. Well as a kid I got to go to school in Germany, and Japan. Later we move to Louisiana wile there I went to a practically all black school. At the time I was just back from a practically all Japanese school and new nothing of racism been around all different types of people my hole life. 'You think how DomFortress talks about the Japanese I would have learn as a kid about racism from them, but there always kind and respectful never shown any sign of being racist at any time. But wen living down Louisiana It became common for me to get death threats every day, just because I was white. But it was not just me, I made friends with a chines family living down there as well. His son also was getting the same treatment. So its not that there racist to white people in Louisiana but racist to all other races but the black.
So from my experience is that the black race has been showing me there more racist than any other group of people. I lived around the world. And the only time I even got a death threat was in America down in Louisiana by the majority of the people there, FOR NOT BEING BLACK! So i am sorry if I do not agree with some of your stance on racism, I have seen first hand racism and it comes mostly from the black community from my experience. (In the end the black communities have only them selves to blame for the majority of there problems the have today. That includes Profiling, they step into there own stereotype than bitch that the rest of the world is being racist for profiling them.
"So I am sorry if from my experience the American Black persons is the most racist group of people I have met." (ps.. 2 of my best friends are black, so I am not talking about everyone, just the majority of them.)


'If White America is as racist as a few of you think it is... Do you really think more than 80% of sports stars would be black as they are now?"
that doesnt mean anything. Even self proclaimed racist claim that black people can play sports pretty well. And even this fact in itself can be interpreted as evidence for industrilized racism.

"So I am sorry if from my experience the American Black persons is the most racist group of people I have met." (ps.. 2 of my best friends are black, so I am not talking about everyone, just the majority of them.)

generally, any group of people isolated from other groups of people will undoubltivly be racist. Especially with how the media is. No one is saying one group of people is more racist then the other, for even Chinese people are racists to white people in all Chinese nieghborhoods.

in reality racisms is a natural reaction to different cultures/people that humans fear and cant understand. It's all based on ignorance and peer/parent pressure.
This is evident in all cultures- some more then others (Japan is mainly homogenious, so racism couldnt exists there simply because of a lack of immigrants).
So racisms is apparent in all races, but particularly in groups of people that never venture out of thier own hood and talk to kids who look and act differently than they do. And i have been to 3 different highschools where i have seen this phenominom 1st hand. The more diverse the school is, the less racism appears. Same thing with nieghtborhoods. peace over war
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Posted 11/9/09

Cuddlebuns wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:
I was talking about this particular double standard. There is racism against whites, and a whole hell of a lot.


Well this clears things up. I thought you were trying to demonstrate that black people were the main ones who experience racism and that white people rarely do.


Oh, no, no. That’s not what I was trying to say at all. Actually, I think the quantity of racism against whites is greater than the quantity of racism against blacks. I just think that the type of racism against whites is inconsequential while the racism against blacks is legitimately crippling and should be taken more seriously than the prejudice against whites.

I mean, most white people have been called a name or stereotyped for their race at some point in their life, I’m sure. Who’s never heard ‘white boy can’t jump,’ or ‘white boy can’t dance,’ or ‘once you go black you never go back,’ a phrase implying that white people have small penises as compared to black people.

Well, I can’t jump, I can’t dance, and my penis is tiny in general. The point is that these stereotypes are harmless. I’m not being associated with a thief or gangster. At worst they’ll call me white-trash, red-neck, or hillbilly and then I’ll go on with my life. On the flip side African Americans are stereotyped as being lazy, stupid, thieves and this actually affects their professional careers. The particular stereotypes are simply more hurtful, pragmatically and socially. They’re brutalized by cops because of this generalization, they lose jobs or can’t get jobs because of this generalization, they go through a lot of obstacles because of this generalization.

I’ve never heard of somebody not getting a job because the manager thought they were a red neck. Actually, people often consider red necks hard workers-and rightfully so. Trailer trash may not be nice to look at but those scrawny fuckers can work circles around me. On the flip side, I’ve heard of managers not hiring somebody because they think they’re lazy or a thief. In fact I hear about it all the time.

Well, there are some serious discriminative acts against white people that go on out there. Occasionally you’ll hear about black panthers mobbing a white guy, or a group of African American teenagers beating up on a Caucasian kid in the bus while screaming “white boy” this “white boy,” that.

My problem is that we always hear about these, at least locally. Black people, gays, transgender individuals, and others are being profiled and abused because of their ethnicity, sexual preference, or gender identity all the time and it never makes the news. But when a couple teenagers beat up on a white kid because he’s white, that makes the news? The boy wasn’t even very badly hurt, the bus driver (who was black, by the way,) chased his attackers off. They showed his face on the television and were acting like a busted nose and scraped up lip was something so extreme. A busted nose and split lip are like…the most common injuries sustained in any fight anyway.
Posted 11/9/09
Posted 11/9/09 , edited 11/9/09

I personally think that you should kept your original statement along with your source link. It'll at least make your claim that much more interesting.

And as for your original claim itself, you argued that racial profiling can be used as a tool to demonstrate how and why racism works in our society in what ways via statistics. My only concern is that how the racists can further justify their claims based on those statistics, when they already aren't keeping an objective mindset due to who they are.
Posted 11/9/09 , edited 11/9/09

DomFortress wrote:

I personally think that you should kept your original statement along with your source link. It'll at least make your claim that much more interesting.

And as for your original claim itself, you argued that racial profiling can be used as a tool to demonstrate how and why racism works in our society in what ways via statistics. My only concern is that how the racists can further justify their claims based on those statistics, when they already aren't keeping an objective mindset due to who they are.

Well, I came to the conclusion that I'm too lazy to talk about my opinion, but I can repost it. It's not like I've put much thought into it anyway reason why I removed it.
The article isn't the source of what I said, yet I put it there for everyone to read because it states something important which would help to prevent your mentioned concerns.
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