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Posted 11/9/09

JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


JJT2 wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:



Now for your question... I have to judge each based on the factors.
If Me or my friend are to be tortured I have to take on the torture over him, why because I have a higher threshold for pain.
If one must kill the other. Than sorry it is only human nature to put one self above another, unless it is part of your blood line. For It is the built in responsibility of the parents to protect and allow ones own offspring to survive in-order to keep the blood line going. Protecting ones child is instinct. same As protecting one self. So if death is the factor, One will choose someone else to die in your place unless it is your child. Because the is nature and instinct in the end trumps everything else. (unless the person is mentally deficient in the brain)


then i suppose many hereos would be chracterized as mentally deficient which American Phychology Association has been known to do...not that the morjority of humans are rational ne way. peace over war


If the hero as you call them was aware that his action would lead to his death, he not save the person most likely. (self preservation would kick in.) If the hero feels he can save the person and have a good chance of surviving than yes they will try to save the person.
A cop will not jump in the middle of a hail of gun fire where there no chance of him making it out alive. Instead he stay back and wait for backup. even if there are victims in the place.

there is a thin line between a hero and a dead guy. (and that is the ability to properly estimate the situation, And come up with the best action for the problem.) (over estimating ones own skills will get you killed not make you a hero.)
(nothing logical or heroic about dieing, Because you did not have the common sense to know better.)


yea, but intense emotions like love and hate can make people kill themselves. emotions that rage out of control will make people lose all rational though, logic, and reason. So self pervation instinct cant kick in if its over powered by the instinct of sexuality and aggression.

Thats why people give up thier lives for no apparent reason in suicides, and mass suicides, or they may die for a loved one.
I mean, why else would people jump in front of a train? its emotional stress that overpowers the need to survive. This same stress can be used by heroes. I heard of a soldier who jumped on a granade to save the life of his comrads. He knew he would die...peace over war

You just admitted at the time there mind was not right, there stress level had them unable to rationally understand there own situation, leaving them to make rash decisions sometimes saving others but sometimes just killing them selves as well as the others.
Posted 11/9/09

sjp30 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


To put it quite simply, an utilitarian is someone who will maximize his own happiness, joyfulness, and pleasures through avoiding and eliminating his own pains, sufferings, and dreads through any means necessary. Kinda like what you were proposing when you denied any responsibility for the consequences of your choices and actions.

Therefore a leader or a hero is not an utilitarian. For no joy-seeker shall be a leader nor a hero of my time, when I need those who can overcome their own pains and sufferings to stand beside me. In that sense I don't need a competitor, a winner, or a conqueror, just as I also don't need a coward, a looser, or a bully. When all I need are true masters of their own domains.


I cant agree that what i said first was untilitarianistic.
A choice a person makes is not always for the maximum joy or happiness of one self, but if I have a perpous for life and I want to accomplish it; I would do what ever it takes, even if i am to torture a person for it.
It is self centered, but If I have a cause for my actions, than there is no reason for me to not persue it.
and to deside to torture a man would not be the choice one would make for the maximum joy or happiness. It has to be painfull to have to torchure a person you barly know (I think), I would not forgive myself, but If I had a cause for what I did there is no turning back.
I I have chosen to be the suffurer than I could have tried takeing the torture and risk of losing my life or limbs I may need to live for my cause. Yes the person I have to torture may also have a good cause to try to not go though the torture, but what differents is there betwee me and him? could he have been living for a better cause than me? if thats true than I wish he would never giveup. what I'm saying is when there is ether me or him I would chose me to do what I believe in.

This discussion remindes me of an anime called Code Geass where Luluch (the protagonist) will do anything to make a better world for his sister (Nanaly) to live in. In the end he becomes the most hated vilen to everyone in the world by causing mass mwerder and the use of WMD.

He did not have to be a Hero to live for his cause. I think he is a very sad character who has to carry the berden of a mass merdurer. You can say if he had any heart, but though his actions it caused the death of his sister (Euohemia) who was also his beast friends lover, and even cause the death if his lover's (Shirley) father and herself. He clearly knows the pain and suffering of the people he is creating, yet his beleife gives him strength to keep going and finishes his act as a vilin till the end, and opens a chance for the world to become a better place for his sister and everyone to live in.

Ya this is just an anime where all sorts of stupid things can happen, and it may be stupid of me to use an anime as an example for a reallife discussion, but this anime really questioned me what is good and evil. and if there is god wether god would send him to hell or not..... Some people may think Luluch as an idiot makeing the choices he made, but then can you blame a retarded person for doing his actions. It may be imposible for a person like Luluch to egsist but if there was..... He did not have to be a Hero to feight for what he believed was the right thing to do.

Ovcosre it would have been impossible to judge wether he was a person who had a dream for a better peacful world or just a greedy despot who just wanted to conqure the world. If we wern't watching him in a third person view where would have been no way anyone could have seen him as a good person.
Then that made me think. to see in a third person view is something only god can do (as far as I know) and if god is the only one who can truly judge my actions than there is no reason for me to stop my actions for what I believe in when in the end I will be judged by an absolute force who knows me better then anyone.
That does not mean I will ignore peoples feelings, but It will affect me when I make important desitions in my life.
I think to live life in its fullest is to live for what you truly believ in, for what is important for you.
It is a very self centered consept, but I must stress that this consept does not ignore peoples feelings and I agree we should respect peoples feelings, and personaly it's impossible for me to ignore peoples feelings because I personaly think I have alot of empethy (i think) I shed tears when I see people get tortured or lose a loved one when I watch movies to, but if I had to chose wether to torture or be tortured, I would think of my best interests and follow my belife.

You should be proud of being a person without a single purpose, otherwise you would've still accomplished nothing with that self-centered attitude of yours. When you've got no heart to show it because you don't believe in anything, while you keep blaming God for you not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Otherwise, you wouldn't had let a poorly constructed fictional character from a stupid anime series to distort your sense of good and evil. Unlike the next guy who presented a real tough candidate by one Friedrich Nietzsche.


leviathan343 wrote:
Sounds like you need a Nietzschean.

I'm totally down with my man Nietzsche. For when he said "whatever does not kill me makes me stronger", I came right back and said "whatever does not make me strong will kill me, myself included". And while he said "pity makes suffering contagious", I came right back and said "self-inflected suffering eliminates self-pity".

To this day, my self-inflected suffering in the form of my fitness training, had really eliminated my self-pity in the form of my laziness.
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Posted 11/10/09

DomFortress wrote:


sjp30 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


To put it quite simply, an utilitarian is someone who will maximize his own happiness, joyfulness, and pleasures through avoiding and eliminating his own pains, sufferings, and dreads through any means necessary. Kinda like what you were proposing when you denied any responsibility for the consequences of your choices and actions.

Therefore a leader or a hero is not an utilitarian. For no joy-seeker shall be a leader nor a hero of my time, when I need those who can overcome their own pains and sufferings to stand beside me. In that sense I don't need a competitor, a winner, or a conqueror, just as I also don't need a coward, a looser, or a bully. When all I need are true masters of their own domains.


I cant agree that what i said first was untilitarianistic.
A choice a person makes is not always for the maximum joy or happiness of one self, but if I have a perpous for life and I want to accomplish it; I would do what ever it takes, even if i am to torture a person for it.
It is self centered, but If I have a cause for my actions, than there is no reason for me to not persue it.
and to deside to torture a man would not be the choice one would make for the maximum joy or happiness. It has to be painfull to have to torchure a person you barly know (I think), I would not forgive myself, but If I had a cause for what I did there is no turning back.
I I have chosen to be the suffurer than I could have tried takeing the torture and risk of losing my life or limbs I may need to live for my cause. Yes the person I have to torture may also have a good cause to try to not go though the torture, but what differents is there betwee me and him? could he have been living for a better cause than me? if thats true than I wish he would never giveup. what I'm saying is when there is ether me or him I would chose me to do what I believe in.

This discussion remindes me of an anime called Code Geass where Luluch (the protagonist) will do anything to make a better world for his sister (Nanaly) to live in. In the end he becomes the most hated vilen to everyone in the world by causing mass mwerder and the use of WMD.

He did not have to be a Hero to live for his cause. I think he is a very sad character who has to carry the berden of a mass merdurer. You can say if he had any heart, but though his actions it caused the death of his sister (Euohemia) who was also his beast friends lover, and even cause the death if his lover's (Shirley) father and herself. He clearly knows the pain and suffering of the people he is creating, yet his beleife gives him strength to keep going and finishes his act as a vilin till the end, and opens a chance for the world to become a better place for his sister and everyone to live in.

Ya this is just an anime where all sorts of stupid things can happen, and it may be stupid of me to use an anime as an example for a reallife discussion, but this anime really questioned me what is good and evil. and if there is god wether god would send him to hell or not..... Some people may think Luluch as an idiot makeing the choices he made, but then can you blame a retarded person for doing his actions. It may be imposible for a person like Luluch to egsist but if there was..... He did not have to be a Hero to feight for what he believed was the right thing to do.

Ovcosre it would have been impossible to judge wether he was a person who had a dream for a better peacful world or just a greedy despot who just wanted to conqure the world. If we wern't watching him in a third person view where would have been no way anyone could have seen him as a good person.
Then that made me think. to see in a third person view is something only god can do (as far as I know) and if god is the only one who can truly judge my actions than there is no reason for me to stop my actions for what I believe in when in the end I will be judged by an absolute force who knows me better then anyone.
That does not mean I will ignore peoples feelings, but It will affect me when I make important desitions in my life.
I think to live life in its fullest is to live for what you truly believ in, for what is important for you.
It is a very self centered consept, but I must stress that this consept does not ignore peoples feelings and I agree we should respect peoples feelings, and personaly it's impossible for me to ignore peoples feelings because I personaly think I have alot of empethy (i think) I shed tears when I see people get tortured or lose a loved one when I watch movies to, but if I had to chose wether to torture or be tortured, I would think of my best interests and follow my belife.

You should be proud of being a person without a single purpose, otherwise you would've still accomplished nothing with that self-centered attitude of yours. When you've got no heart to show it because you don't believe in anything, while you keep blaming God for you not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Otherwise, you wouldn't had let a poorly constructed fictional character from a stupid anime series to distort your sense of good and evil. Unlike the next guy who presented a real tough candidate by one Friedrich Nietzsche.


leviathan343 wrote:
Sounds like you need a Nietzschean.

I'm totally down with my man Nietzsche. For when he said "whatever does not kill me makes me stronger", I came right back and said "whatever does not make me strong will kill me, myself included". And while he said "pity makes suffering contagious", I came right back and said "self-inflected suffering eliminates self-pity".

To this day, my self-inflected suffering in the form of my fitness training, had really eliminated my self-pity in the form of my laziness.


(Dang I should get better at writing.......)
It seems like my lack of knowledg is what keeps me getting wrong it a discussion like this. I knew using an anime character as an example would make a total foole out of myself. these are the times I wish I knew better of real life people... Maybe I should just stay out of these things untill I have better writing meathods and know actual reallife examples that I could use to support my argument... So I have to agree that I am not suited to be in sutch arguments yet. I guess I should self inflict suffering by studying more to not pity myself ^^ I agree with you on that. (I apologize if my immature choice of example bothered you in any sort of way during a serious discution.)

But I will say one last thing that I think is true. People will act based on their belife. what ever their moral, ethics, or pricipels they have, what makes people act is based on what they believe. Moral, ethics, or principal are all based on what people believe in to begin with.

You reply to me probably because you believe you just wanted to write a reply or any other reason that I would have no idea of, but that desition was made becasue you believed that I am a utilitarian, not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Me using god was not ment to be used as an escape goat for me to blame on. I actually dont even know if god egsists nor am I part of a religion. I used god because I know that the word god meens an absolute being who is capable of anything or what ever the definition was. And I thought that if it was true, god would be the only one who can judge a person from all minds and perspective. Even if god did not egsist I'm sure people will act based on their belife, wether that person is religious or not.

We make so many desitions in our life based on our belife I think its almost not noticed. Our ethics, moral, pricipels are all part of our belife so I think we can agree on that.
Posted 11/10/09

sjp30 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


You should be proud of being a person without a single purpose, otherwise you would've still accomplished nothing with that self-centered attitude of yours. When you've got no heart to show it because you don't believe in anything, while you keep blaming God for you not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Otherwise, you wouldn't had let a poorly constructed fictional character from a stupid anime series to distort your sense of good and evil. Unlike the next guy who presented a real tough candidate by one Friedrich Nietzsche.


leviathan343 wrote:
Sounds like you need a Nietzschean.

I'm totally down with my man Nietzsche. For when he said "whatever does not kill me makes me stronger", I came right back and said "whatever does not make me strong will kill me, myself included". And while he said "pity makes suffering contagious", I came right back and said "self-inflected suffering eliminates self-pity".

To this day, my self-inflected suffering in the form of my fitness training, had really eliminated my self-pity in the form of my laziness.


(Dang I should get better at writing.......)
It seems like my lack of knowledg is what keeps me getting wrong it a discussion like this. I knew using an anime character as an example would make a total foole out of myself. these are the times I wish I knew better of real life people... Maybe I should just stay out of these things untill I have better writing meathods and know actual reallife examples that I could use to support my argument... So I have to agree that I am not suited to be in sutch arguments yet. I guess I should self inflict suffering by studying more to not pity myself ^^ I agree with you on that. (I apologize if my immature choice of example bothered you in any sort of way during a serious discution.)

But I will say one last thing that I think is true. People will act based on their belife. what ever their moral, ethics, or pricipels they have, what makes people act is based on what they believe. Moral, ethics, or principal are all based on what people believe in to begin with.

You reply to me probably because you believe you just wanted to write a reply or any other reason that I would have no idea of, but that desition was made becasue you believed that I am a utilitarian, not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Me using god was not ment to be used as an escape goat for me to blame on. I actually dont even know if god egsists nor am I part of a religion. I used god because I know that the word god meens an absolute being who is capable of anything or what ever the definition was. And I thought that if it was true, god would be the only one who can judge a person from all minds and perspective. Even if god did not egsist I'm sure people will act based on their belife, wether that person is religious or not.

We make so many desitions in our life based on our belife I think its almost not noticed. Our ethics, moral, pricipels are all part of our belife so I think we can agree on that.

FYI, Friedrich Nietzsche wrote Antichrist because he argued that individuals without a sense of moral, ethic, or principle, will use religious beliefs of God and what's good or evil, to justify their irresponsible ways of not being true masters of their own domains.

My sole reason to reply to you is to challenge you, your thoughts and feelings. So that I can make you realize just exactly what sort of effort and guts one requires, if one ever need to be the master of ones' own domain.
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21 / M / Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 11/11/09

DomFortress wrote:


sjp30 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


You should be proud of being a person without a single purpose, otherwise you would've still accomplished nothing with that self-centered attitude of yours. When you've got no heart to show it because you don't believe in anything, while you keep blaming God for you not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Otherwise, you wouldn't had let a poorly constructed fictional character from a stupid anime series to distort your sense of good and evil. Unlike the next guy who presented a real tough candidate by one Friedrich Nietzsche.


leviathan343 wrote:
Sounds like you need a Nietzschean.

I'm totally down with my man Nietzsche. For when he said "whatever does not kill me makes me stronger", I came right back and said "whatever does not make me strong will kill me, myself included". And while he said "pity makes suffering contagious", I came right back and said "self-inflected suffering eliminates self-pity".

To this day, my self-inflected suffering in the form of my fitness training, had really eliminated my self-pity in the form of my laziness.


(Dang I should get better at writing.......)
It seems like my lack of knowledg is what keeps me getting wrong it a discussion like this. I knew using an anime character as an example would make a total foole out of myself. these are the times I wish I knew better of real life people... Maybe I should just stay out of these things untill I have better writing meathods and know actual reallife examples that I could use to support my argument... So I have to agree that I am not suited to be in sutch arguments yet. I guess I should self inflict suffering by studying more to not pity myself ^^ I agree with you on that. (I apologize if my immature choice of example bothered you in any sort of way during a serious discution.)

But I will say one last thing that I think is true. People will act based on their belife. what ever their moral, ethics, or pricipels they have, what makes people act is based on what they believe. Moral, ethics, or principal are all based on what people believe in to begin with.

You reply to me probably because you believe you just wanted to write a reply or any other reason that I would have no idea of, but that desition was made becasue you believed that I am a utilitarian, not having a set of morals, ethics, or principles.

Me using god was not ment to be used as an escape goat for me to blame on. I actually dont even know if god egsists nor am I part of a religion. I used god because I know that the word god meens an absolute being who is capable of anything or what ever the definition was. And I thought that if it was true, god would be the only one who can judge a person from all minds and perspective. Even if god did not egsist I'm sure people will act based on their belife, wether that person is religious or not.

We make so many desitions in our life based on our belife I think its almost not noticed. Our ethics, moral, pricipels are all part of our belife so I think we can agree on that.

FYI, Friedrich Nietzsche wrote Antichrist because he argued that individuals without a sense of moral, ethic, or principle, will use religious beliefs of God and what's good or evil, to justify their irresponsible ways of not being true masters of their own domains.

My sole reason to reply to you is to challenge you, your thoughts and feelings. So that I can make you realize just exactly what sort of effort and guts one requires, if one ever need to be the master of ones' own domain.


Yup I totally agree it takes guts to stand up for one self, but I shall take that challenge after I master my domain in schoolwork
I used too much time on the forums lately and I am actually falling behind on my homework......
it may be an escape goat, but I wont be running for too long. Its more like a tactical retreat where I would rather fight another day instead of when I'm not in the best condition I can be in.
Nice talking to you
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