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Ending Islamophobia and Islamic Terrorism
Posted 12/2/09
Here's an idea; how the Al-Qaeda in the Asia Pacific operates. Through their faction loyalty becomes the majority, with their elitist mindset based on their religious collectivism. While they overrule individuality through their totalitarianism.
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Posted 12/2/09
Wow Ryu if I had time I would join you on this thread but I must say you handled yourself very well. Lol as usual the ad hominem, your just a muslim, you racist, are always thrown to try to avoid getting a point across but I see through it and lol you have as well (happens to me all the time). Sometimes I scratch my head at your age but to floor older people and get them so pissed at you for correcting their false statements deserves a round of applause. To be brief Digs Islamophobia only exists in countries that demonizes Islam by the media. The media is a powerful tool when they choose to demonize any type of group, race, or religion in order to achieve some political goal the people who watch the negative side of the culture 24/7 believe it to be reality. Although not actually meeting anyone who actually lives those stereotypes people still send to pass their judgment anyways. I believe to understand terrorism is to understand why it is carried out. Are we doing anything to make it worse? Why are they only being carried out on countries who occupies other countries? How would we Americans act if some foreign country occupies us forcing their values on us? Would we all be united and up and arms against them? Anyways Digs I like you your a smart guy. Even though I don't agree with most of what you say I believe the problem falls with putting Islam in front of everything a muslim does. If we put Christian in front of every American crime or Jew then eventually a phobia will be created for those two religions. Anyways have a nice day everyone!
Posted 12/3/09 , edited 12/3/09

drizza wrote:

Wow Ryu if I had time I would join you on this thread but I must say you handled yourself very well. Lol as usual the ad hominem, your just a muslim, you racist, are always thrown to try to avoid getting a point across but I see through it and lol you have as well (happens to me all the time). Sometimes I scratch my head at your age but to floor older people and get them so pissed at you for correcting their false statements deserves a round of applause. To be brief Digs Islamophobia only exists in countries that demonizes Islam by the media. The media is a powerful tool when they choose to demonize any type of group, race, or religion in order to achieve some political goal the people who watch the negative side of the culture 24/7 believe it to be reality. Although not actually meeting anyone who actually lives those stereotypes people still send to pass their judgment anyways. I believe to understand terrorism is to understand why it is carried out. Are we doing anything to make it worse? Why are they only being carried out on countries who occupies other countries? How would we Americans act if some foreign country occupies us forcing their values on us? Would we all be united and up and arms against them? Anyways Digs I like you your a smart guy. Even though I don't agree with most of what you say I believe the problem falls with putting Islam in front of everything a muslim does. If we put Christian in front of every American crime or Jew then eventually a phobia will be created for those two religions. Anyways have a nice day everyone!

Before you carry out your own brand of stereotypical comment based on ignorance, have a look at my proposal and then answer me this, from one individual to another; since when did humanity being humane means being Westernized?

Ryu never managed to answer me that in the end, because her lack of effort and courage to be an individual in a collectivist Indonesia prevents her from stepping outside of her Islamic protection towards her faction loyalty.
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Posted 12/3/09

ShroomInferno wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

That's assuming that the Muslim extremists are keeping in touch with the current time, which I think it isn't the case to be. When their demands all seem to be a return to what they referred as "old teachings".


Indeed. And it doesn't seem like Islamic fundamentalism is declining, sadly it's 'au contraire'.


Sadly, it seems just so.

This is why I don't practice religion.
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Posted 12/4/09

DomFortress wrote:

That's assuming that the Muslim extremists are keeping in touch with the current time, which I think it isn't the case to be. When their demands all seem to be a return to what they referred as "old teachings".

Precisely, and I can't respect their old teachings that violate international human rights law.

Here's what I can see insofar, whenever the Muslim extremists violate international human rights law in their community, they'll simply excuse themselves for exercising their religious freedom. Which is a part of the international human rights law that grands religious beliefs as freedom of expression, and in doing so they demand to be respected by the international community.

I got a better idea; since Muslim extremists exercise inhuman practices namely against the Western idealists. This means that humanitarian activists are the next best form of diplomacy, if only the Islamic terrorists didn't resist humanitarian efforts. Which can only means that the terrorists' actions aren't humane to begin with, while they keep claiming that their acts are some sort of divine interventions against the Western movements.

But since when did humanity being humane means being Westernized? :huh:

Ryu never managed to answer me that in the end, because her lack of effort and courage to be an individual in a collectivist Indonesia prevents her from stepping outside of her Islamic protection towards her faction loyalty.



Islam never had old teaching or new teaching like some religions like new testament nor old testament. Islam's law and its whole teachings is fixed, never changing. It's depend on how you look at some muslim's has their own teachings that divert whole religion to their ideology. For example, Afghanistan who doesn't allow woman to study in school. That's not Islam, that's their own ideology to suppress Afghanistan to spread their influence in region. Even Iran, the Islamic Republic, said Taliban as a medieval group that live in cave. Clearly, Taliban's teaching is not based on Islam.

Since when? Since UN had been existed, the only one who made international law based on western's ideology. Merely pointed laws in certain countries violating International's laws without even trying to understand the country's value and laws. Islam's laws is to persuade humanity to not violate the laws by implementing heavy punishment to make people fear commit crimes. Have you heard about coercive power? This is effective to cut crime's rates by manipulate their fear of punishment, of course being followed with proper applications.

I heard no countries in EU implement capital punishment while US apply it. Does EU, as UN's most influenced countries, ever forced US to disband Capital punishment? No. Then why western government very concern and feel disturbed to laws in certain countries? Laws can only be applied to those who believe it. If they can't, the purpose of laws had been defeated.

Answering what? Wasn't you are the one who started talking about your personal life and belief that even do not related to topic? I think nobody wanted to know about your life in this forum, while we talked about war in being declared by US. I've answered about how the war could be solved by my own thought, while you can't argue back how your way can solved the war.



ShroomInferno wrote:


I just hope that I never ever get to see the Shariah laws getting introduced in my country.


I don't think Shariah would never applied in Swiss or any northern europe countries, seeing how great their resistance just because a new mosque's minaret would be build. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/01/world/main5849722.shtml I don't know how much tolerance this democracy country have to religion that only wanted to express their religion freely. Even UN said the ban clearly form of discrimination.

Unbelievably, the Swiss fear that one day the country could be transformed into a Muslim state -- despite the fact that Muslims make up just over six per cent of the population. A truly multicultural country -- accepting of all -- would never have that fear or that problem.
Like drizza said, Islamophobia only exists in countries that demonizes Islam by the media. The media is a powerful tool when they choose to demonize any type of group, race, or religion in order to achieve some political goal the people who watch the negative side of the culture 24/7 believe it to be reality.

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Posted 12/4/09
Actually, you are wrong on the subject. Is anyone here European? I live sporadically in Croatia, Germany and Italy and I often visit Switzerland. Islam is not demonized in ANY of those countries accept by extremists. The truth is opposite: in fear for being labeled nazis, EU politicians are giving huge freedoms to THRONGS OF MUSLIM ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. So the story in Europe goes like this:

1. Muslim escapes from their country, which is islamic state in search of better future.

2. They come to Europe, mostly illegal.

3. They find jobs - also illegal. Not to mention they can not read, write, and they don't fit in any EU requirements for better work.

4. Small percentage wants education. Vast majority revert to crime.

5. They organize themselves in comunites, have tons of children. EU is obliged to help them (their children), so they live off the money EU gives them for kids. They dont work. They dont produce anything. They dont speak the language of their new home, and dont want to learn it. They dont respect the culture of their new home. THEY DO NOT ADAPT. But they demand rights.

6. PROBLEM: Their culture is NOT MUSLIM BUT ARAB CULTURE, AND THOSE ARE TO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! What they demand is usually IN CONFLICT with laws and basic human rights which exist in their new home. It is just the way they treat women and members of other religions, their way punishment, and the way they live. It is not Muslim. It is Arab.

7. So my question is: WHY THE HELL DID THEY LIVE THEIR COUNTRY? If they dont like their new home, if they dont respect its culture and laws, if they don't like the way things are done here?

8. Question 2: Wouldn't your new home become like the one you escaped from if everything you demand becomes true? They use EU freedom to annul that same freedom. When their new home becomes like the old one, where are they going to escape then?

In regard to Switzerland: SO, if one democratic nation decides something not democratic of they own free will, then they are not any longer democratic nation? As to WHY did they decide it? One must come to Europe and live for a month or two in one big city to see why. People are afraid of Muslims. They are afraid that they will lose their identity, and they are afraid of islamization, and they are afraid of theri values, because they are in conflict with their own values. Because MUSLIM IN EU DO NOT ADAPT - THEY FORCE THEIR OWN WAYS.

So, they can not build minarets in Switzerland and they are angry. I have another question: how many churches or sinagogues were built in ANY muslim country? How do they REALLY treat people of different religion? Can christians have huge cross around your neck in muslim country? Can nudist bath in there? Can you be openly anything else then muslim? Can you preach against muslims like some mulims do openly in Britain, for example?

Did you know that when they wanted to build mosque in Russia, Putin said: ok, but then let us build orthodoxy church in Saudi Arabia. They didnt allow it. And nother question: if Islam is so non - violent and great religion, what happend with millions of christians in north afrcia, and tons of churches there? What happened to all other religions in middle east?

Why are people in EU afraid of muslims? Come and live here, and you will know. Otherwise, shut up.
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Posted 12/4/09

blancer wrote:

Actually, you are wrong on the subject. Is anyone here European? I live sporadically in Croatia, Germany and Italy and I often visit Switzerland. Islam is not demonized in ANY of those countries accept by extremists. The truth is opposite: in fear for being labeled nazis, EU politicians are giving huge freedoms to THRONGS OF MUSLIM ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. So the story in Europe goes like this:

1. Muslim escapes from their country, which is islamic state in search of better future.
2. They come to Europe, mostly illegal.
3. They find jobs - also illegal. Not to mention they can not read, write, and they don't fit in any EU requirements for better work.
4. Small percentage wants education. Vast majority revert to crime.

5. They organize themselves in comunites, have tons of children. EU is obliged to help them (their children), so they live off the money EU gives them for kids. They dont work. They dont produce anything. They dont speak the language of their new home, and dont want to learn it. They dont respect the culture of their new home. THEY DO NOT ADAPT. But they demand rights.

6. PROBLEM: Their culture is NOT MUSLIM BUT ARAB CULTURE, AND THOSE ARE TO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! What they demand is usually IN CONFLICT with laws and basic human rights which exist in their new home. It is just the way they treat women and members of other religions, their way punishment, and the way they live. It is not Muslim. It is Arab.


This is Islamophobia thread, so I hope nobody was wrong in their posts so far.
Of course, nobody said all europe countries are like that. In fact, the council of Europe has been fighting against Islamophobia. http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3460. It all because there are signs Islamophobia increasing in Europe. The first post clearly explained much about the result of Islamophobia about pregnant lady being stabbed to death because she was muslim. And about ban wearing veil for women students in France.

The EUMC ( European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia) lately published a report entitled Muslims in the European Union: Discrimination and Islamophobia that proved that a large number of European Muslims are victims of discrimination when it comes to employment, education, and housing. It is a discrimination that makes no distinction between their ethnicity or their degree of religiosity. European Muslims are victims of Islamophobic incidents ranging from verbal threats to physical attacks. Here is their draft: http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/muslim/Manifestations_EN.pdf

1. Those who came mostly from middle-east, asia or africa. It is common in immigration, not just from Islamic state.
2. Yes, many. Many don't have valid documents after their homeland being bombed.
3. Not all. Many native european also have illegal jobs. It depends on the individual not because where they came from.
4. All of them wants to living as human beings. The true muslims would never do crimes as their profession, same as other religions.
5. Opposite, they are growing as intelligent humans, thanks for advanced education in europe. If they don't want to learn and only wasting tax money from government, they must be already been sent back to their country as burden to whole native europeans.
6. Have they actually demanding their Arab culture? They just demand their rights to worship god, same as any religious people seek. If they demand it, has the EU government actually agreed? If I were EU government, I would never agreed to foreigner.


blancer wrote:

7. So my question is: WHY THE HELL DID THEY LIVE THEIR COUNTRY? If they dont like their new home, if they dont respect its culture and laws, if they don't like the way things are done here?

8. Question 2: Wouldn't your new home become like the one you escaped from if everything you demand becomes true? They use EU freedom to annul that same freedom. When their new home becomes like the old one, where are they going to escape then?

In regard to Switzerland: SO, if one democratic nation decides something not democratic of they own free will, then they are not any longer democratic nation? As to WHY did they decide it? One must come to Europe and live for a month or two in one big city to see why. People are afraid of Muslims. They are afraid that they will lose their identity, and they are afraid of islamization, and they are afraid of theri values, because they are in conflict with their own values. Because MUSLIM IN EU DO NOT ADAPT - THEY FORCE THEIR OWN WAYS.

So, they can not build minarets in Switzerland and they are angry. I have another question: how many churches or sinagogues were built in ANY muslim country? How do they REALLY treat people of different religion? Can christians have huge cross around your neck in muslim country? Can nudist bath in there? Can you be openly anything else then muslim? Can you preach against muslims like some mulims do openly in Britain, for example?

Did you know that when they wanted to build mosque in Russia, Putin said: ok, but then let us build orthodoxy church in Saudi Arabia. They didnt allow it. And nother question: if Islam is so non - violent and great religion, what happend with millions of christians in north afrcia, and tons of churches there? What happened to all other religions in middle east?

Why are people in EU afraid of muslims? Come and live here, and you will know. Otherwise, shut up.


7. They trying to adapt. When they can't respect the culture when what they wanted is an opportunities to pray? What they've done(crimes) are not because they are muslims or had different races than Eurasian. It because they are human beings, all did crimes as it is human's nature.
8. What's their demand that even make EU possible to be their homeland? I don't think developed nation can be developing nation.

Does democratic nations oppress free will of some group? How some muslims people can make a whole nation becomes Islamic country? The Muslim community, which makes up ONLY 400,000 out of 7.5 million people in Switzerland, was dismayed.
“The most painful for us is not the minaret ban, but the symbol sent by this vote. Muslims do not feel accepted as a religious community,” said Farhad Afshar, who heads the Coordination of Islamic Organizations in Switzerland.

When they forced their ways? They only wanted to express their religion freely. Even Christian community also expressed dismay, saying it was “inadmissible that the religious minority now have to subject to unequal treatment.”
For Amnesty International, the minaret ban is a “violation of religious freedom, incompatible with the conventions signed by Switzerland.”
“The initiators (of the referendum) have unfortunately managed to exploit fears towards Islam and stirred up xenophobic sentiments, it's regrettable,” said Daniel Bolomey, who heads the Swiss chapter of the rights group.

Obviously, it's not religion vs religion. It's about freedom vs discrimination.
I've been in EU, it's clear they are tolerance to any religions and races from different continents. It just exaggerating news about muslims terrorist in middle-east by media. Not to mention, act of some that really absurd like stabbing pregnant lady just because she was muslims.
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Posted 12/4/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


blancer wrote:

Actually, you are wrong on the subject. Is anyone here European? I live sporadically in Croatia, Germany and Italy and I often visit Switzerland. Islam is not demonized in ANY of those countries accept by extremists. The truth is opposite: in fear for being labeled nazis, EU politicians are giving huge freedoms to THRONGS OF MUSLIM ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. So the story in Europe goes like this:

1. Muslim escapes from their country, which is islamic state in search of better future.
2. They come to Europe, mostly illegal.
3. They find jobs - also illegal. Not to mention they can not read, write, and they don't fit in any EU requirements for better work.
4. Small percentage wants education. Vast majority revert to crime.

5. They organize themselves in comunites, have tons of children. EU is obliged to help them (their children), so they live off the money EU gives them for kids. They dont work. They dont produce anything. They dont speak the language of their new home, and dont want to learn it. They dont respect the culture of their new home. THEY DO NOT ADAPT. But they demand rights.

6. PROBLEM: Their culture is NOT MUSLIM BUT ARAB CULTURE, AND THOSE ARE TO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS! What they demand is usually IN CONFLICT with laws and basic human rights which exist in their new home. It is just the way they treat women and members of other religions, their way punishment, and the way they live. It is not Muslim. It is Arab.


This is Islamophobia thread, so I hope nobody was wrong in their posts so far.
Of course, nobody said all europe countries are like that. In fact, the council of Europe has been fighting against Islamophobia. http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3460. It all because there are signs Islamophobia increasing in Europe. The first post clearly explained much about the result of Islamophobia about pregnant lady being stabbed to death because she was muslim. And about ban wearing veil for women students in France.

The EUMC ( European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia) lately published a report entitled Muslims in the European Union: Discrimination and Islamophobia that proved that a large number of European Muslims are victims of discrimination when it comes to employment, education, and housing. It is a discrimination that makes no distinction between their ethnicity or their degree of religiosity. European Muslims are victims of Islamophobic incidents ranging from verbal threats to physical attacks. Here is their draft: http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/muslim/Manifestations_EN.pdf

1. Those who came mostly from middle-east, asia or africa. It is common in immigration, not just from Islamic state.
2. Yes, many. Many don't have valid documents after their homeland being bombed.
3. Not all. Many native european also have illegal jobs. It depends on the individual not because where they came from.
4. All of them wants to living as human beings. The true muslims would never do crimes as their profession, same as other religions.
5. Opposite, they are growing as intelligent humans, thanks for advanced education in europe. If they don't want to learn and only wasting tax money from government, they must be already been sent back to their country as burden to whole native europeans.
6. Have they actually demanding their Arab culture? They just demand their rights to worship god, same as any religious people seek. If they demand it, has the EU government actually agreed? If I were EU government, I would never agreed to foreigner.


blancer wrote:

7. So my question is: WHY THE HELL DID THEY LIVE THEIR COUNTRY? If they dont like their new home, if they dont respect its culture and laws, if they don't like the way things are done here?

8. Question 2: Wouldn't your new home become like the one you escaped from if everything you demand becomes true? They use EU freedom to annul that same freedom. When their new home becomes like the old one, where are they going to escape then?

In regard to Switzerland: SO, if one democratic nation decides something not democratic of they own free will, then they are not any longer democratic nation? As to WHY did they decide it? One must come to Europe and live for a month or two in one big city to see why. People are afraid of Muslims. They are afraid that they will lose their identity, and they are afraid of islamization, and they are afraid of theri values, because they are in conflict with their own values. Because MUSLIM IN EU DO NOT ADAPT - THEY FORCE THEIR OWN WAYS.

So, they can not build minarets in Switzerland and they are angry. I have another question: how many churches or sinagogues were built in ANY muslim country? How do they REALLY treat people of different religion? Can christians have huge cross around your neck in muslim country? Can nudist bath in there? Can you be openly anything else then muslim? Can you preach against muslims like some mulims do openly in Britain, for example?

Did you know that when they wanted to build mosque in Russia, Putin said: ok, but then let us build orthodoxy church in Saudi Arabia. They didnt allow it. And nother question: if Islam is so non - violent and great religion, what happend with millions of christians in north afrcia, and tons of churches there? What happened to all other religions in middle east?

Why are people in EU afraid of muslims? Come and live here, and you will know. Otherwise, shut up.


7. They trying to adapt. When they can't respect the culture when what they wanted is an opportunities to pray? What they've done(crimes) are not because they are muslims or had different races than Eurasian. It because they are human beings, all did crimes as it is human's nature.
8. What's their demand that even make EU possible to be their homeland? I don't think developed nation can be developing nation.

Does democratic nations oppress free will of some group? How some muslims people can make a whole nation becomes Islamic country? The Muslim community, which makes up ONLY 400,000 out of 7.5 million people in Switzerland, was dismayed.
“The most painful for us is not the minaret ban, but the symbol sent by this vote. Muslims do not feel accepted as a religious community,” said Farhad Afshar, who heads the Coordination of Islamic Organizations in Switzerland.

When they forced their ways? They only wanted to express their religion freely. Even Christian community also expressed dismay, saying it was “inadmissible that the religious minority now have to subject to unequal treatment.”
For Amnesty International, the minaret ban is a “violation of religious freedom, incompatible with the conventions signed by Switzerland.”
“The initiators (of the referendum) have unfortunately managed to exploit fears towards Islam and stirred up xenophobic sentiments, it's regrettable,” said Daniel Bolomey, who heads the Swiss chapter of the rights group.

Obviously, it's not religion vs religion. It's about freedom vs discrimination.
I've been in EU, it's clear they are tolerance to any religions and races from different continents. It just exaggerating news about muslims terrorist in middle-east by media. Not to mention, act of some that really absurd like stabbing pregnant lady just because she was muslims.


Thing is, people see UK and they are frightened. in UK they also started with mosque and minarets, and now they have parallel laws. What people are afraid of is: what is next? What demands will muslims make? They are afraid that their non muslim children will be oppressed and they are afraid of arab culture witch is very intolerant towards women, foreigners and other religions. Lets be clear, I don't have anything against Islam, I actually support it wherever I can, and I think that my country is proof that muslims and christians can coexist without incidents. They are building second mosque in my hometown without any problems. It is nice to mention that Croatians are christians for 1300 years, and first christian roman emperor comes from Split. (although he was roman born in croatia).
Nice links, you had to know that stuff when applying for job in Eu institutions. (I passed. Then found out those are mostly clerk jobs. Disappointing.)
Also there was the case of cartoonist who was killed in Holland for drawing Muhammad a. s. So, burning and spitting and desecrating other peoples simbols like flags is OK? But one picture, drawn by non muslim is worth killing for? What about the freedom of speech one has in Holland? That is what I am talking about. What would happen if every time someone insults Christ, for example, is killed? That was happening 500 years ago, but isnt it pointless right now? Europe is aiming to be secular, they burned christianity out of constitution, and public buildings. So when one escapes from its own country, one should be careful in where he escapes to. You have to ask yourself. will I be able to live there?
You cannot go somewhere and say: hey, my religion approves of human sacrifice and get away with murder. Stupid example, but I just want to get my point. if I cannot run around naked with cross on my chest shouting: Islam sucks, become members of fifth pentacostal church or something in Muslim coutry, why do people expect they can get away with that in west? what do they expect to gain? And last one is: if they don't like it, why do they not return home? Or are Europeans considered stupid to allow freedom of speech and they are stupid for helping illegal immigrants? Am I, as taxpayer stupid because my money is feeding illegals, and is taking care of their children instead of investing in my countrymen and my country? Why are those people my responsibility? So they can escape being deported? and then you have cities like Paris and Berlin, where you cannot go out at nights? Where all those "grateful" people who escaped their country hate me because my money is helping them? - that is the problem with Muslims in EU and source of all islamophobia. want to end it? Be less extreme. Adapt. Muslim have to show that they are willing to coexist. Learn the language of country where you live. Go to school - it is free! Learn that women and men have the same rights. Learn to live with and to respect other religions.
Considering Switzerland, I have to add: no one forced their people to vote that way. You know how voting in Swiss works: if you dont go to elections, you go to jail for 3 days. So, if some 3 million people decide something, no matter how unpopular, it is the wish of the people. they voted on democratic free elections in democratic free country in Europe, where 99% of politicians are afraid of ANY kind of hate speech. It is the will of the people, so the rest of the world has to accept it. You can not say in democracy: "you have 2 choices, but it is not good for you to pick that one. Try again." It kills the whole concept of freedom of choice and democratic elections.
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Posted 12/4/09

blancer wrote:

Thing is, people see UK and they are frightened. in UK they also started with mosque and minarets, and now they have parallel laws. What people are afraid of is: what is next? What demands will muslims make? They are afraid that their non muslim children will be oppressed and they are afraid of arab culture witch is very intolerant towards women, foreigners and other religions. Lets be clear, I don't have anything against Islam, I actually support it wherever I can, and I think that my country is proof that muslims and christians can coexist without incidents. They are building second mosque in my hometown without any problems. It is nice to mention that Croatians are christians for 1300 years, and first christian roman emperor comes from Split. (although he was roman born in croatia).
Nice links, you had to know that stuff when applying for job in Eu institutions. (I passed. Then found out those are mostly clerk jobs. Disappointing.)


Actually what demands muslims in europe asking other than worshiper place? aren't mosques and its minarets have same functions to churches and temples in general? Why people in UK are frightened? Does many or any muslim in parliament has enough number to pass the laws about islamic laws ? Why people afraid about arab culture when no even chance nor intention to be implemented there?

Does muslims there actually wanted to forced islamic laws in other countries, especially in democratic countries when all are being approved by same laws? It's just their needs of prayer, and that's basic human rights to every people in the world. Even Heads the Swiss chapter of the rights group and International Amnesty expressed their disappointment towards the ban of minarets. What they want is just basic necessity not all Shariah laws because they aware this is not their country. Just see Iran and Malaysia, they implement Shariah Laws NOT to all people in their country, but ONLY to muslims. Because Islamic laws are not compulsion to non-muslims.



blancer wrote:

Also there was the case of cartoonist who was killed in Holland for drawing Muhammad a. s. So, burning and spitting and desecrating other peoples simbols like flags is OK? But one picture, drawn by non muslim is worth killing for? What about the freedom of speech one has in Holland? That is what I am talking about. What would happen if every time someone insults Christ, for example, is killed? That was happening 500 years ago, but isnt it pointless right now? Europe is aiming to be secular, they burned christianity out of constitution, and public buildings. So when one escapes from its own country, one should be careful in where he escapes to. You have to ask yourself. will I be able to live there?


Then punish the culprit who kill the cartoonist, if the laws in Netherlands said the killer must be judged by capital punishment then do it. After all, insulting others just make situation worse. Why drawing a sacred person when they know it could caused rage to muslims on the world from begin with? The true believer of Islam would never insults Jesus, because we acknowledge Jesus as one of the prophet in Islam that we should respect him. The ones who insult him clearly not muslims, please don't generalize all muslims because acts of some. It's what media always used nowadays.


blancer wrote:

You cannot go somewhere and say: hey, my religion approves of human sacrifice and get away with murder. Stupid example, but I just want to get my point. if I cannot run around naked with cross on my chest shouting: Islam sucks, become members of fifth pentacostal church or something in Muslim coutry, why do people expect they can get away with that in west? what do they expect to gain? And last one is: if they don't like it, why do they not return home? Or are Europeans considered stupid to allow freedom of speech and they are stupid for helping illegal immigrants? Am I, as taxpayer stupid because my money is feeding illegals, and is taking care of their children instead of investing in my countrymen and my country? Why are those people my responsibility? So they can escape being deported?


I don't have any idea when someone saying human sacrifices in discussion regarding to Islam. Where did you get that from? We're humans, we have value, norms, dignity to live in this world and being a leader of this world. If you run around naked without shame, especially wearing sacred symbol, anyone would feel disgusted seeing religion being associated with nudity and disrespect acts to humanity. If you want your freedom, do it properly without violating others freedom and don't forget to respect others.

Does any muslims don't like being in europe just because it's different than their home country? They don't like because they've been discriminated in many ways as I've said above. And they've been treated as 2nd class citizens in UK a while ago, not sure about now.

Muslims there are working, aren't they? Do capitalism in Europe very kind to immigrant? I don't think any government, especially in developed countries are willing to help them fully with tax money. All people have to work. Until what intend government help immigrant, I went to europe and we were checked by immigration office to clarify our intention to visit there, luckily we have air tickets to proven our visit was just for trips not work. I don't think that's the case when immigrants, from begin with, came to search jobs in europe.



blancer wrote:

and then you have cities like Paris and Berlin, where you cannot go out at nights? Where all those "grateful" people who escaped their country hate me because my money is helping them? - that is the problem with Muslims in EU and source of all islamophobia. want to end it? Be less extreme. Adapt. Muslim have to show that they are willing to coexist. Learn the language of country where you live. Go to school - it is free! Learn that women and men have the same rights. Learn to live with and to respect other religions.


Why they hate you? I don't see the reasons behind it. After all, not all immigrants are muslims and not all european are non-muslims. Many natives europeans are muslims as well. This is not because of religions issue, maybe because of act of some immigrant while they actually are not muslims. They've already understand the values of europe are different than islamic, therefore many muslims are coexist there from hundreds of years ago.

Many muslims are actually converted from other religion and they clearly understand this is not Islamic country with shariah laws. Muslims were there not because of people immigrated there. It because of Islam as religion's teaching preach native-european to learn about Islam. And they've been respecting to others, what I concern is the number of Islamophobia recently



blancer wrote:

Considering Switzerland, I have to add: no one forced their people to vote that way. You know how voting in Swiss works: if you dont go to elections, you go to jail for 3 days. So, if some 3 million people decide something, no matter how unpopular, it is the wish of the people. they voted on democratic free elections in democratic free country in Europe, where 99% of politicians are afraid of ANY kind of hate speech. It is the will of the people, so the rest of the world has to accept it. You can not say in democracy: "you have 2 choices, but it is not good for you to pick that one. Try again." It kills the whole concept of freedom of choice and democratic elections.


Maybe I missed something about the concept of democracy in Swiss. I think Democracy can't be used to oppress minority, correct? Whether they're the will of whole people or the will of majority of people. Democracy can't and shouldn't be used as tool to discriminate some people. Democracy is the will of people, either they are majority or minority. If the concept are false, then what happened in Swiss is not real democracy as people of the world, either from neighbor countris, Vatican Church, and International Human Rights are all disagree and disappointed about this ban.


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Later.
Posted 12/4/09

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

That's assuming that the Muslim extremists are keeping in touch with the current time, which I think it isn't the case to be. When their demands all seem to be a return to what they referred as "old teachings".

Precisely, and I can't respect their old teachings that violate international human rights law.

Here's what I can see insofar, whenever the Muslim extremists violate international human rights law in their community, they'll simply excuse themselves for exercising their religious freedom. Which is a part of the international human rights law that grands religious beliefs as freedom of expression, and in doing so they demand to be respected by the international community.

I got a better idea; since Muslim extremists exercise inhuman practices namely against the Western idealists. This means that humanitarian activists are the next best form of diplomacy, if only the Islamic terrorists didn't resist humanitarian efforts. Which can only means that the terrorists' actions aren't humane to begin with, while they keep claiming that their acts are some sort of divine interventions against the Western movements.

But since when did humanity being humane means being Westernized? :huh:

Ryu never managed to answer me that in the end, because her lack of effort and courage to be an individual in a collectivist Indonesia prevents her from stepping outside of her Islamic protection towards her faction loyalty.



Islam never had old teaching or new teaching like some religions like new testament nor old testament. Islam's law and its whole teachings is fixed, never changing. It's depend on how you look at some muslim's has their own teachings that divert whole religion to their ideology. For example, Afghanistan who doesn't allow woman to study in school. That's not Islam, that's their own ideology to suppress Afghanistan to spread their influence in region. Even Iran, the Islamic Republic, said Taliban as a medieval group that live in cave. Clearly, Taliban's teaching is not based on Islam.

Since when? Since UN had been existed, the only one who made international law based on western's ideology.
Merely pointed laws in certain countries violating International's laws without even trying to understand the country's value and laws. Islam's laws is to persuade humanity to not violate the laws by implementing heavy punishment to make people fear commit crimes. Have you heard about coercive power? This is effective to cut crime's rates by manipulate their fear of punishment, of course being followed with proper applications.

I heard no countries in EU implement capital punishment while US apply it. Does EU, as UN's most influenced countries, ever forced US to disband Capital punishment? No. Then why western government very concern and feel disturbed to laws in certain countries? Laws can only be applied to those who believe it. If they can't, the purpose of laws had been defeated.

Answering what? Wasn't you are the one who started talking about your personal life and belief that even do not related to topic? I think nobody wanted to know about your life in this forum, while we talked about war in being declared by US. I've answered about how the war could be solved by my own thought, while you can't argue back how your way can solved the war.



ShroomInferno wrote:


I just hope that I never ever get to see the Shariah laws getting introduced in my country.


I don't think Shariah would never applied in Swiss or any northern europe countries, seeing how great their resistance just because a new mosque's minaret would be build. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/01/world/main5849722.shtml I don't know how much tolerance this democracy country have to religion that only wanted to express their religion freely. Even UN said the ban clearly form of discrimination.

Unbelievably, the Swiss fear that one day the country could be transformed into a Muslim state -- despite the fact that Muslims make up just over six per cent of the population. A truly multicultural country -- accepting of all -- would never have that fear or that problem.
Like drizza said, Islamophobia only exists in countries that demonizes Islam by the media. The media is a powerful tool when they choose to demonize any type of group, race, or religion in order to achieve some political goal the people who watch the negative side of the culture 24/7 believe it to be reality.


You want me to send humanitarian workers to the Middle East unprotected, while the Muslim extremists like Al-Qaeda and Taliban are killing and kidnapping any and all Westerners as well as pro-western Muslims? Don't forget that your idea was letting the Muslim extremists to regain their political power overruling the Middle Eastern region, thus they could return the state of Middle East back to what was before the humanitarian movement, according to their "old teaching" of the Islamic faith.

Your limited understanding of the nurturing nature of humanity being humane(citation) had misled you to think that humanitarianism was based on UN law. When it was in fact based on the science of human evolution; a new teaching that the Muslim extremists are rejecting along with the rest of the Western culture.

Or are you saying that public display of torture in the Middle Eastern Muslim society are much more humane and natural behaviors? Because they sure didn't mind.

BTW, you don't have to look that far into Swiss in order to see how radical Islamic law is working its way into your Indonasian society.
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DomFortress wrote:

You want me to send humanitarian workers to the Middle East unprotected, while the Muslim extremists like Al-Qaeda and Taliban are killing and kidnapping any and all Westerners as well as pro-western Muslims? Don't forget that your idea was letting the Muslim extremists to regain their political power overruling the Middle Eastern region, thus they could return the state of Middle East back to what was before the humanitarian movement, according to their "old teaching" of the Islamic faith.

Your limited understanding of the nurturing nature of humanity being humane(citation) had misled you to think that humanitarianism was based on UN law. When it was in fact based on the science of human evolution; a new teaching that the Muslim extremists are rejecting along with the rest of the Western culture.

Or are you saying that public display of torture in the Middle Eastern Muslim society are much more humane and natural behaviors? Because they sure didn't mind.

BTW, you don't have to look that far into Swiss in order to see how radical Islamic law is working its way into your Indonasian society.


If there are army, it will make them being targeted more than no army. Did you know that humanitarian workers are supposed to work under government not merely intruding the country in questioned. For example, you can't enter Myanmar or North Korea without approval to the government. While in this case, does humanitarian workers really wanted to help villagers in southern area without permission to Taliban who govern them? Not to mention current 'illegitimate' government are corrupted. If they are not willing to talk with Taliban, then anything will be result to failure, either it's aid programs or peace.

That's why I've been aid about Light and Darkness about this Taliban.
Ordinary Afghans, weary of the prevailing lawlessness in many parts of the country, were often delighted by Taleban successes in stamping out corruption, restoring peace and allowing commerce to flourish again. Their refusal to deal with the existing warlords whose rivalries had caused so much killing and destruction also earned them respect.

Indeed, their rigid form of Islam has antagonised most of their neighbours and Islamic states who believe they are giving Islam a bad name. Shia Iran has described the Sunni Taleban as medieval while Russia and former Communist Central Asian states fear they may try to spread their form of militant Islam across the region. Not surprisingly, these states are said to be supporting the anti-Taleban opposition coalition.

Yeah, that science of human evolution are apparently being rejected by western people as well, not just muslims, but we as human beings that aware of different value and respect to another form of norms should understand their rights to implement their own laws. Those who still have sincere and kindness would not agree to put more soldiers in Afghanisthan just to forced Afghans that science of human evolution.

It's not the most upbeat way to warm up for President Obama's most important speech on the Afghan war to date, but nor should the numbers be ignored. Especially today. According to the latest CBS News poll:

* Just 38% of Americans approve of the way Obama is handling the war, down from 58% in April.

* Among independents, approval is 32%; Republicans: 23%; Democrats, 57%.
* Just 23% say the war is going well, down from 35% in September, while 69% say it's going badly. The swing factor: independents.

* Approval for the way Obama is handling foreign policy as a whole is 50%, unchanged from last month.

Approval for Obama's performance as president is down to 53%, according to CBS. Other polls have him lower. Gallup has him at 51% (after dipping below 50% for a couple of days this month). The conservative Rasmussen poll has him at 47%. I looked for more recent reports of Sunday's revelations that two of the 9/11 suspects were waterboarded 266 times between them
http://middleeast.about.com/?once=true&

If you don't fully understand about the laws, you shouldn't judge them by outside layer. That's been considered as prejudiced. Anyone could say, Democracy is wrong, Capitalism is evil. Thus, your statement calling them wrong are based on democracy, based on western culture, while you don't understand their culture. Then who can define whether a law is wrong or right, while humans are the one who decided and made them. This is the concept of Light and Darkness. No entire wrong, No entire right. By study both of them properly, we can make the best decision to humanity as whole.
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OK, instead of answering questions, and trying to explain or answer things that are mostly not my opinion, but observation (I am angry mostly by supporting illegal immigrants with tax money, and fact the people who ask for political asylum stay for life, without work permits, but they get social help - 2000 Euros, plus another 400 per child. If you understand german, I can link to some laws there to support my claim.)
So, here are some quotes from Switzerland, from people who voted against minarets. Hopefully, it will make you answer some questions better then me (like I said, I am croat, and we never had problems like those.)

"it is not prosecution of muslims, as some people want to show it. Nobody touches them, they are free we deny them nothing. They can pray, but for that, they dont need minarets. Minarets are not part of our culture or tradition or our architecture. And one has to think about people who escaped from countries with sheriat laws to Swiss: how would they feel if they saw bunch of minarets sticking out in Switzerland?"

"Why would we let them build minarets, when we can not build churches in Islamic countries?"

Well, ex - Yugoslavia is also to blame for situation: they accepted 70 000 refugees, mostly muslims from bosnia. Soon there was drug trafficing, mafia murders, slavery etc. Which was, unfortunately, normal for bosnian maifa. But in Switzerland, it really changed how people look on foreigners, especially muslims.
Gotte go to work, I'll update later.
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blancer wrote:

OK, instead of answering questions, and trying to explain or answer things that are mostly not my opinion, but observation (I am angry mostly by supporting illegal immigrants with tax money, and fact the people who ask for political asylum stay for life, without work permits, but they get social help - 2000 Euros, plus another 400 per child. If you understand german, I can link to some laws there to support my claim.)
So, here are some quotes from Switzerland, from people who voted against minarets. Hopefully, it will make you answer some questions better then me (like I said, I am croat, and we never had problems like those.)

"it is not prosecution of muslims, as some people want to show it. Nobody touches them, they are free we deny them nothing. They can pray, but for that, they dont need minarets. Minarets are not part of our culture or tradition or our architecture. And one has to think about people who escaped from countries with sheriat laws to Swiss: how would they feel if they saw bunch of minarets sticking out in Switzerland?"

"Why would we let them build minarets, when we can not build churches in Islamic countries?"


I've posted about this matter on previous page. So I re-posting this again if you don't mind. Although, this is quite off topic.

Remember this is an Islamic country.. You only come to this country if you are on invite.. So if you plan on coming, you do as you are requested in the home of the host. If you go to the vatican, you cannot practice another faith in Vatican city, its their laws. Same as in Saudi Arabia, If you choose to come there, that's your choice and you go by the rules of the hosts country. Foreigners who worked here find their ways praying and attending mass or worship on private homes, camps, villas, etc. At least Christians were not banned to practice their faith and private homes are enough to do so. Not only Christians but Hindus, Buddhist, etc.
The main point is freedom to practice religion, not the place to worship.

While Muslim Personal Law is not recognized in the West, the Personal Law of non-Muslim minorities has always been recognized in the Muslim world. Second, while throughout Europe and America, Muslims are not permitted to make the call to prayer (adhan) on loud speakers(with minarets), church bells ring freely in the Muslim world. Also, the wide spread anti-Islamic prejudice in the Western media is both a cause and a consequence of the underlying intolerance. Hate crimes are a fact of life in the West. As just one small indication, nearly two-dozen incidents of vandalism have taken place against Mosques in the peaceful USA during the last seven years, not to mention hundreds of attacks against individuals.

In addition, even in most conservative country and other Islamic countries like Iran, they have churches and even synagogues for Jews when we all know they are anti-Israel but doesn't mean they hate peaceful Jews. In countries who have majority muslims in asia, africa and other third world countries, they allowed other religions to build their worshiper place, no problem with it. Very contrary comparing to developed nation like Swiss.

The problem with Saudi Arabia is because this country had 1st and 2nd holiest site to whole muslims on the world. Building church might give bad sentiment and image to government and could cause more damage than merits. It's just like economy, how much demand to build church there? Was it necessary to build one when they don't meet the number demand to its worshipers? After all, we have to considerate to people in there. For example, we can't build any zoo or monument if the residents don't give permission to build it. That's considered as violation to human rights too.

In Swiss's case, it's not between immigrants or native residents, it's between Swiss's Muslims Swiss's non-Muslims. It's based on human rights to pray properly. If they have no problem with churches with their tall towers, big statues and huge cross on it, then why they banning minarets on mosques?


blancer wrote:

Well, ex - Yugoslavia is also to blame for situation: they accepted 70 000 refugees, mostly muslims from bosnia. Soon there was drug trafficing, mafia murders, slavery etc. Which was, unfortunately, normal for bosnian maifa. But in Switzerland, it really changed how people look on foreigners, especially muslims.
Gotte go to work, I'll update later.


I think we shouldn't blame any government who accepting refugees or immigrant just because they are foreigner or muslims. So if the refugees are all catholic, you don't have any problem with it? Don't generalize all crimes related to immigrant muslims, we know all religions teach good things to prohibit such bad acts or behavior. It's clear they are not muslims or far from Islam's value when they commit such crimes. If one christian steal my bag, will I hate all Christians on the world?

The question is, why people in Switzerland changed their view on muslims? Since when? Since US's invasion that killed thousands of muslims in middle-east? Or because that's what media told in their screen? I hope this prejudiced will comes to end soon with understanding and willingness to talk to each other and not by force.
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Ryutai-Desk wrote:


blancer wrote:

OK, instead of answering questions, and trying to explain or answer things that are mostly not my opinion, but observation (I am angry mostly by supporting illegal immigrants with tax money, and fact the people who ask for political asylum stay for life, without work permits, but they get social help - 2000 Euros, plus another 400 per child. If you understand german, I can link to some laws there to support my claim.)
So, here are some quotes from Switzerland, from people who voted against minarets. Hopefully, it will make you answer some questions better then me (like I said, I am croat, and we never had problems like those.)

"it is not prosecution of muslims, as some people want to show it. Nobody touches them, they are free we deny them nothing. They can pray, but for that, they dont need minarets. Minarets are not part of our culture or tradition or our architecture. And one has to think about people who escaped from countries with sheriat laws to Swiss: how would they feel if they saw bunch of minarets sticking out in Switzerland?"

"Why would we let them build minarets, when we can not build churches in Islamic countries?"


I've posted about this matter on previous page. So I re-posting this again if you don't mind. Although, this is quite off topic.

Remember this is an Islamic country.. You only come to this country if you are on invite.. So if you plan on coming, you do as you are requested in the home of the host. If you go to the vatican, you cannot practice another faith in Vatican city, its their laws. Same as in Saudi Arabia, If you choose to come there, that's your choice and you go by the rules of the hosts country. Foreigners who worked here find their ways praying and attending mass or worship on private homes, camps, villas, etc. At least Christians were not banned to practice their faith and private homes are enough to do so. Not only Christians but Hindus, Buddhist, etc.
The main point is freedom to practice religion, not the place to worship.

While Muslim Personal Law is not recognized in the West, the Personal Law of non-Muslim minorities has always been recognized in the Muslim world. Second, while throughout Europe and America, Muslims are not permitted to make the call to prayer (adhan) on loud speakers(with minarets), church bells ring freely in the Muslim world. Also, the wide spread anti-Islamic prejudice in the Western media is both a cause and a consequence of the underlying intolerance. Hate crimes are a fact of life in the West. As just one small indication, nearly two-dozen incidents of vandalism have taken place against Mosques in the peaceful USA during the last seven years, not to mention hundreds of attacks against individuals.

In addition, even in most conservative country and other Islamic countries like Iran, they have churches and even synagogues for Jews when we all know they are anti-Israel but doesn't mean they hate peaceful Jews. In countries who have majority muslims in asia, africa and other third world countries, they allowed other religions to build their worshiper place, no problem with it. Very contrary comparing to developed nation like Swiss.

The problem with Saudi Arabia is because this country had 1st and 2nd holiest site to whole muslims on the world. Building church might give bad sentiment and image to government and could cause more damage than merits. It's just like economy, how much demand to build church there? Was it necessary to build one when they don't meet the number demand to its worshipers? After all, we have to considerate to people in there. For example, we can't build any zoo or monument if the residents don't give permission to build it. That's considered as violation to human rights too.

In Swiss's case, it's not between immigrants or native residents, it's between Swiss's Muslims Swiss's non-Muslims. It's based on human rights to pray properly. If they have no problem with churches with their tall towers, big statues and huge cross on it, then why they banning minarets on mosques?


blancer wrote:

Well, ex - Yugoslavia is also to blame for situation: they accepted 70 000 refugees, mostly muslims from bosnia. Soon there was drug trafficing, mafia murders, slavery etc. Which was, unfortunately, normal for bosnian maifa. But in Switzerland, it really changed how people look on foreigners, especially muslims.
Gotte go to work, I'll update later.


I think we shouldn't blame any government who accepting refugees or immigrant just because they are foreigner or muslims. So if the refugees are all catholic, you don't have any problem with it? Don't generalize all crimes related to immigrant muslims, we know all religions teach good things to prohibit such bad acts or behavior. It's clear they are not muslims or far from Islam's value when they commit such crimes. If one christian steal my bag, will I hate all Christians on the world?

The question is, why people in Switzerland changed their view on muslims? Since when? Since US's invasion that killed thousands of muslims in middle-east? Or because that's what media told in their screen? I hope this prejudiced will comes to end soon with understanding and willingness to talk to each other and not by force.


Ah, I know what you mean. Yes, media is to blame, because they are one sided. World is black and white etc. I also blame career politicians who sometimes do more harm then good when supporting Muslims, especially where they are minority, because they think like: I will support Muslims, and show to the world that I am liberal, multicultural and I care, although I don't know anything about their religion or problems etc etc.
You misunderstood the part about refugees. I was not blaming anyone for accepting them, or them for being Muslim. I just stated a fact that Bosnia and Herzegovina is screwed up nation, where mafia rules supreme, it is not important if you are Muslim or Christian or Orthodox. It is just that Muslim part of that mafia came to Swiss with refugees, and started traffickig (trading in people... mostly girls who lost their families in war... religion was not in question here) and selling drugs. That is big part of their bad experiences with Muslims - since they came there 10 years ago it is fairly recent history. Then there are Muslims from Kosovo and Albania... don get me wrong, what they do doesn't have anything with the fact they are Muslims, but the fact that they are from parts of the world where bad people rule. It is just that the media now is saying they are Muslim. To be clear it is like this: I say for Russian mafia that they are all Orthodox, thus their crimes stop being crime related and become religion related. So you read headlines like this:

Russian mafia kills 10 in shootout. = Orthodox terrorist kills 10 and there you go. few more headlines like this and people become orthodoxophobic. (like his word exists)

It just as Catholic part of that mafia went to Germany, why they have prejudice about Croats sometimes (in Munich I hate saying that I am Croat. People sometimes look at me like: where is your gun?) Thankfully there are more scientists then mobsters now. in Germany, if you know what I mean .
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