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Che Guevara
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Posted 2/5/10

DomFortress wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:
You should read the history of Cuba first. Cuba is not imperial nations which only depends on bloodline like past china or current Japan. They (Fidel Castro and Che Guevara) were being chosen by their people for able to oppose the corrupt government and make everything stable until now. If Che still alive, surely he will be the leader now. It would be easier if you read Mao Zedong story or read the history of how People Republic of China was founded.
What do the historical cause and effect about the founding of nations have anything to do with the fact that they still got humanity wrong? When social economists have a better solution at how to solve social problems(citation).


That's how Cuban works today as socialist country. They believe in their government, unlike capitalist country. They often condemn their leader.
Posted 2/5/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:
You should read the history of Cuba first. Cuba is not imperial nations which only depends on bloodline like past china or current Japan. They (Fidel Castro and Che Guevara) were being chosen by their people for able to oppose the corrupt government and make everything stable until now. If Che still alive, surely he will be the leader now. It would be easier if you read Mao Zedong story or read the history of how People Republic of China was founded.
What do the historical cause and effect about the founding of nations have anything to do with the fact that they still got humanity wrong? When social economists have a better solution at how to solve social problems(citation).


That's how Cuban works today as socialist country. They believe in their government, unlike capitalist country. They often condemn their leader.
And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).
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Posted 2/5/10

DomFortress wrote:

And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).


Every country has its own problem. Every system has its own flaws. That's when the people shouldn't ignore one side and only merely to be left or right wing. We should consider the best of left and the best of right wing to make the best system that benefit the whole country. After all, if the people can't agree on the system they believe, on what direction those people live on?
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Posted 2/5/10



azera wrote:




azera wrote:

Of course people call him a "Communist" or a "Socialist", or whatever the US describe(and we stupidly listen and agreed to). But one thing that you forgot that he have inspired millions of workers in Latin America and abroad. Just think of the highest grossing film ever 'Avatar', and try to figure out the similarity between US atrocious foreign policy after WWII and the Earth-settlers in the movie.
That's completely bogus and you know it, otherwise you've obviously misunderstood the movie itself because the natives don't have the concept of economy.


I'm not talking about natives not having a concept of economy, im actually pointing out the way the Earth-settlers treat the Natives is quite similar to what the US have done to the democratic third-world countries after WWII.

Love the movie.
And that's still bogus, when the natives aren't democratic third-world nations. But rather tribal first-nation of their planet. The humans are the aliens, considering the fact that they can't even survive the climate without them relying on their technology.


You don't get it what im trying to point out didn't you?

The movie is a direct criticism to Iraq War and US imperalist policies after WWII

Still don't get it?
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Posted 2/5/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).


Every country has its own problem. Every system has its own flaws. That's when the people shouldn't ignore one side and only merely to be left or right wing. We should consider the best of left and the best of right wing to make the best system that benefit the whole country. After all, if the people can't agree on the system they believe, on what direction those people live on?


Their would be a lot less flaws if people try to fix them, instead of saying "all countries have flaws, its as bad as people say you have your opinion and I have mine." that is just avoiding the problem.
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Posted 2/5/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).


Every country has its own problem. Every system has its own flaws. That's when the people shouldn't ignore one side and only merely to be left or right wing. We should consider the best of left and the best of right wing to make the best system that benefit the whole country. After all, if the people can't agree on the system they believe, on what direction those people live on?


Their would be a lot less flaws if people try to fix them, instead of saying "all countries have flaws, its as bad as people say you have your opinion and I have mine." that is just avoiding the problem.


That will depends on the person who's trying to fix the problem. Obama trying to fix the problem, but instead it's getting more and much problematic than how it used to be. About foreign affair, war not to mention the problem within the country itself that caused pro and contra between socialist and capitalist in health reform.

Is ti because Obama wasn't good enough to solve the problems, or rather because of the stubborn congress that always block Obama's way? All of it contributes the whole countries into different sides, whether the good or bad side. Despite all of the problem, Cuba seems have more harmony government than US that always shouting to each party, democrat and republic, although they are supposed to be one soul. Interesting, ain't it? People.
Posted 2/6/10 , edited 2/6/10

azera wrote:You don't get it what im trying to point out didn't you?

The movie is a direct criticism to Iraq War and US imperalist policies after WWII

Still don't get it?
What you didn't get is the fact that it is those who criticize that the US war on Iraq was wrong, are seeing the movie Avatar as some sort of political campaign against this so-called US "imperialism". And the proof is that the movie itself is a work of fiction, not a documentary.


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).


Every country has its own problem. Every system has its own flaws. That's when the people shouldn't ignore one side and only merely to be left or right wing. We should consider the best of left and the best of right wing to make the best system that benefit the whole country. After all, if the people can't agree on the system they believe, on what direction those people live on?


Their would be a lot less flaws if people try to fix them, instead of saying "all countries have flaws, its as bad as people say you have your opinion and I have mine." that is just avoiding the problem.
And the Cuban government for all its worth has its problem in spades. For its head position of the executive government body is a family hierarchy, while its representative of the legislative government body is also the head of its military. Therefore unless the entire nation of Cuba is a military state, with the Cuban citizens are all in mandatory military service. Its government is not regulated by its people's laws.

Therefore:

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And they still have the same social problems as Canada is facing, which BTW is also a socialist country(citation).


Every country has its own problem. Every system has its own flaws. That's when the people shouldn't ignore one side and only merely to be left or right wing. We should consider the best of left and the best of right wing to make the best system that benefit the whole country. After all, if the people can't agree on the system they believe, on what direction those people live on?


Their would be a lot less flaws if people try to fix them, instead of saying "all countries have flaws, its as bad as people say you have your opinion and I have mine." that is just avoiding the problem.


That will depends on the person who's trying to fix the problem. Obama trying to fix the problem, but instead it's getting more and much problematic than how it used to be. About foreign affair, war not to mention the problem within the country itself that caused pro and contra between socialist and capitalist in health reform.

Is ti because Obama wasn't good enough to solve the problems, or rather because of the stubborn congress that always block Obama's way? All of it contributes the whole countries into different sides, whether the good or bad side. Despite all of the problem, Cuba seems have more harmony government than US that always shouting to each party, democrat and republic, although they are supposed to be one soul. Interesting, ain't it? People.
Myth busted!

You call this harmonizing the Cubans?
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Posted 2/6/10

DomFortress wrote:


And the Cuban government for all its worth has its problem in spades. For its head position of the executive government body is a family hierarchy, while its representative of the legislative government body is also the head of its military. Therefore unless the entire nation of Cuba is a military state, with the Cuban citizens are all in mandatory military service. Its government is not regulated by its people's laws.

Myth busted!

You call this harmonizing the Cubans?


That's what we called stability. I was regarding to Che Guevara's movement not to Castro's brother who's fought alongside with Che. If Che still alive, he will be implementing the Equality and Freedom correctly. What Fidel did and Raul might not represent Che's ideology.
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digs 
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Posted 2/6/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


And the Cuban government for all its worth has its problem in spades. For its head position of the executive government body is a family hierarchy, while its representative of the legislative government body is also the head of its military. Therefore unless the entire nation of Cuba is a military state, with the Cuban citizens are all in mandatory military service. Its government is not regulated by its people's laws.

Myth busted!

You call this harmonizing the Cubans?


That's what we called stability. I was regarding to Che Guevara's movement not to Castro's brother who's fought alongside with Che. If Che still alive, he will be implementing the Equality and Freedom correctly. What Fidel did and Raul might not represent Che's ideology.


Che was a racist and executed people without trial. He was a wicked man running under the premise that all business is evil and we need a militant "revolution" in order to keep everything in check. Che Guavera was a wicked fool and the world is better without him. I say this with all respect for you and hope none of it is offensive. Che Guavera was a very evil man though who ran on a manipulative ideology that resulted in an oppressive communist state.
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Posted 2/7/10

digs wrote:

Che was a racist and executed people without trial. He was a wicked man running under the premise that all business is evil and we need a militant "revolution" in order to keep everything in check. Che Guavera was a wicked fool and the world is better without him. I say this with all respect for you and hope none of it is offensive. Che Guavera was a very evil man though who ran on a manipulative ideology that resulted in an oppressive communist state.


I would believe that if you have valid references. What I know about him is his successful attempt to kick foreign influence to manipulate business in Cuba, especially in Bay of Pigs Invasion against US. No wonder Americans hate him and put Cuba into Evil country whenever they showing their courage against Imperialism, like Iran.

World will be better if people willing to understand each other, without merely cursing one and other.
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Posted 2/7/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

He was a 'hero' for poor people and a 'terrorist' for rich people. He was a worldwide symbol for revolution and a leader of insurgency groups against corrupt governments. I don't know much about the situation in South America countries at that time, but I heard the people were really poor and always being treated like minorities, even they are much larger in terms of number but were really weak to oppose armed government. He was a soul that could raise the life hope of weak people to stand and rise against side what they believe is wrong and evil within their enemy. He was a light that guided weak people to be strong and proud to achieve the dream.

He dreamt about equality of the people and justice for all. Trying to crush the iron wall of rich and poor that has widen, thicker than any rich people can't imagine. Starting from Argentina, across the south continent, he struggled to achieved his utopia, spreading his belief about how corrupt the governments was and how evil the colonialism and capitalism. However to achieve such big dreams, he shed blood of his comrades than he had imagined. To break down the tyranny of money and oppression, there is nothing that he can do beside shed more tears and blood for years, that might much better rather than being poor and oppressed eternally.

At last, he succeed to achieve his dream. The dream of freedom and equal environment without fear being discriminated as Cubans, the ex-oppressed humans who are now able to stand on their own feet.


I might be wrong in some parts due to lack of information, but the country which once being called Evil Nation are no longer desperate about health problems as Americans have today. They have doctors and nurses visiting neighborhood everyday to check people's condition and they have the latest technology in most Cuba's hospitals. The rate of deaths are low. I watched in national geographic about this and there were group of Americans who unable to pay hospital's fee in US and they flew to Cuba to get the free treatment using latest technology and top doctors as well, and that's the standard of hospitality and given to everyone. Despite the US government was the one of many whom contributed wars in Cuba. Freedom and Equality, This is what Che Guevara's dreams about. And he was a man who were able achieved such utopia for his people.


I'm from South America, and through my parents have heard about the state of things a little after this time period, and I don't agree with El Che's methodology even though some of his ideas were spot on. During much of this time, there were a lot of dictatorial/military regimes which mistreated and oppressed the people; however I believe El Che stood at the far extreme of the spectrum. In my opinion, there are ways to achieve equality and freedom which are more effective than his.

Also, with respect to the health care status in South America, it is still far behind that of the US in terms of equality for all. A lot of times people have to sue the government providers to get free treatment promised in the constitution. For example, a lady who used to work for my family had cancer and had to have a biopsy to confirm the diagnosis, but the government board in charge of reduced rate health care did not approve of the biopsy until she sued them because they said that it would be a wasted procedure if she turned out to not have cancer. One of the bug exceptions to this is Cuba, which does have a remarkably efficient and effective free health care service; however, this is partly fueled by Castro's personal fear of disease (He is said to have built a hospital next to his place of residence in case he fell ill).

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Posted 2/7/10

MCMXCI wrote:

I'm from South America, and through my parents have heard about the state of things a little after this time period, and I don't agree with El Che's methodology even though some of his ideas were spot on. During much of this time, there were a lot of dictatorial/military regimes which mistreated and oppressed the people; however I believe El Che stood at the far extreme of the spectrum. In my opinion, there are ways to achieve equality and freedom which are more effective than his.

Also, with respect to the health care status in South America, it is still far behind that of the US in terms of equality for all. A lot of times people have to sue the government providers to get free treatment promised in the constitution. For example, a lady who used to work for my family had cancer and had to have a biopsy to confirm the diagnosis, but the government board in charge of reduced rate health care did not approve of the biopsy until she sued them because they said that it would be a wasted procedure if she turned out to not have cancer. One of the bug exceptions to this is Cuba, which does have a remarkably efficient and effective free health care service; however, this is partly fueled by Castro's personal fear of disease (He is said to have built a hospital next to his place of residence in case he fell ill).



Yes, of course there are always people who agree or disagree on certain matters. Even in family we could always see dispute between them, moreover in large movement that bring major change in a continent. However, Sir Che was able to give courage to oppressed and weak people to stand and fight against military regimes that stronger in terms of weapon. The struggle that will change their way of live. If they didn't put on weapon to fight, the Cubans and major South America are probably poorer than Africa which Imperialism from big nations control the business that only bring benefit to their home country and bribe the dictator.
But because of Sir Che, they can govern themselves by their own people from people who freed them, Castro brothers (Hope they do not forget own people and become a new regime, though.). If there was better ways to achieve it, I'd like to hear it for knowledge purpose in the future to counter regime on this world.

Yes, I was referring to Cuba, not other South America countries. That's maybe because of personal desires from Che who's always look his people died because of health. The main reason is vague, but if it brings the benefit to whole country,it doesn't matter.

Posted 2/7/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


And the Cuban government for all its worth has its problem in spades. For its head position of the executive government body is a family hierarchy, while its representative of the legislative government body is also the head of its military. Therefore unless the entire nation of Cuba is a military state, with the Cuban citizens are all in mandatory military service. Its government is not regulated by its people's laws.

Myth busted!

You call this harmonizing the Cubans?


That's what we called stability. I was regarding to Che Guevara's movement not to Castro's brother who's fought alongside with Che. If Che still alive, he will be implementing the Equality and Freedom correctly. What Fidel did and Raul might not represent Che's ideology.
That's human rights violation under military regime, with military oppression and political assassination to silence the oppositions. And Che's methods at obtaining "freedom" and "equality" are no different than violating the very same standards that he fought for, by him killing his political oppositions.

Just what gives Che the rights to kill his oppositions, simply for them not agreeing with his ideals? Is it the combination of tyranny, prejudice, hatred, ambition, stupidity, and ignorance? When your idea of stability is only suitable for those with the rights to bare firearms.
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Posted 2/8/10

DomFortress wrote:

That's human rights violation under military regime, with military oppression and political assassination to silence the oppositions. And Che's methods at obtaining "freedom" and "equality" are no different than violating the very same standards that he fought for, by him killing his political oppositions.

Just what gives Che the rights to kill his oppositions, simply for them not agreeing with his ideals? Is it the combination of tyranny, prejudice, hatred, ambition, stupidity, and ignorance? When your idea of stability is only suitable for those with the rights to bare firearms.


Who was the original Che's opposition? They were the ones who oppress weak people and gain full control by force with imperialism by big nation. Che was in people's side to promote equality and trying to cut social discrepancy between rich and poor. The opposition were at fault while its people are starving to death.
Which opposition do you meant? At the past or the present, Che's or Castro brother's? I believe in Che, but I can't fully agree on Castro's brother who have the authority. What Castros do now might not on same track as what Che's ideology.
Posted 2/8/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

That's human rights violation under military regime, with military oppression and political assassination to silence the oppositions. And Che's methods at obtaining "freedom" and "equality" are no different than violating the very same standards that he fought for, by him killing his political oppositions.

Just what gives Che the rights to kill his oppositions, simply for them not agreeing with his ideals? Is it the combination of tyranny, prejudice, hatred, ambition, stupidity, and ignorance? When your idea of stability is only suitable for those with the rights to bare firearms.


Who was the original Che's opposition? They were the ones who oppress weak people and gain full control by force with imperialism by big nation. Che was in people's side to promote equality and trying to cut social discrepancy between rich and poor. The opposition were at fault while its people are starving to death.
Which opposition do you meant? At the past or the present, Che's or Castro brother's? I believe in Che, but I can't fully agree on Castro's brother who have the authority. What Castros do now might not on same track as what Che's ideology.
Che's never on anybody's side but his owns, when he dismissed the "freedom" and "equality" of his oppositions by him killing them. Who are also people by default. In fact, by this very method of his, Che is more like his oppositions. The only difference is the fact that he isn't rich.

And they both applied the same method of obtaining their own "freedoms" and "equality", by them relying on their guns and not their wits. The only difference is the fact that Che isn't an authoritative figure.
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