Where International Law Comes up Short
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Posted 2/19/10 , edited 2/19/10
In terms of international law, warring forces are required to differentiate between military and civilian targets. So what happens when you fight an enemy that dresses as and hides itself amongst civilians thus making it often impossible to distinguish between combatants and civilians?

During an interview with Haaretz the UN special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, Richard Falk stated that in these circumstances:


…launching the attacks is inherently unlawful and would seem to constitute a war crime of the greatest magnitude under international law


In other-words, you should never fight an enemy that doesn’t distinguish itself from the civilian population. In other words, it is illegal to fight urban guerilla forces under any circumstances. Let’s say that Israel attacked Iran and then disguised its operatives as Iranian civilians. Iran would be legally forbidden from resisting the occupation of its land because Israel has made it impossible to distinguish Iranian civilians from IDF soldiers. Similarly, any actions Israel takes against Hamas are automatically illegal.

Now, starting on page 136 of the Goldstone Report begins to address the extent to which Palestinian armed forces employed civilian areas and the vicinity of protected sites (such as any of the more than 2,000 UN facilities within Gaza) in their fight against the Israeli armed forces during the counter-offensive campaign code-named “Operation Cast Lead.”

I will not go over the full content of what follows, but here are the cliff notes:

Section 447 acknowledges that Hamas often used civilian structures to fire its rockets. It provides several examples: a farmer who was shot for refusing to allow Hamas forces to use his home as a rocket launching site, Palestinian witnesses who saw Hamas operatives using an elementary school to fire rockets, and repeated instances of using narrow alleys in residential areas to launch rockets.

Sections 448 and 451 argue that some instances of this were the result of over-crowding. There is finite open area in the small and overcrowded Gaza Strip and as the IDF invaded Hamas forces were unable to maintain their position in open areas. (Less anyone should call a bias card, section 451 also acknowledges that in some instances Hamas intentionally chose crowded areas “in the hope that nearby civilians would deter Israel from retaliating.”)

In several points the report condemns Hamas for failing to properly distinguish itself from the civilian population. In other words, urban guerilla warfare is illegal. You must fight an open battle in rural areas and you must clearly mark your soldiers.




-your forces should look like this on the battlefield.


This is like asking a ninja to march into battle with fog-lights in his back pocket, or a sniper to wear a giant red target.

Hamas must allow itself to be openly obliterated if it wants to resist Israel, by international law; moreover, Hamas was legally required to surrender to Israel after the open areas were captured by Israeli forces because it’s illegal to fight in closed, urban areas.


According to page 32, section 108, of the Goldstone Report:


Rockets and, to a lesser extent, mortars, fired by the Palestinian armed groups are incapable of being directed towards specific military targets…The Mission further determined that these attacks…amount to crimes against humanity


In other words, since Hamas cannot afford sophisticated weapons it is illegal for Hamas to fight a war. Only rich nations are allowed to fight wars, I guess?

This can go on and on for both sides. For example, the report also criticizes Israel for death of Palestinian children Yet, as Norman Finkelstein acknowledges on pages 111-112 of his book “Beyond Chutzpah,” and as Amnesty has repeatedly attested, Hamas employs child-soldiers. You cannot kill children, so if your enemy uses child soldiers you have to let them murder you, by international law.

None of this is to advocate killing babies with white phosphorous or firing mortar at kids loading up on a school bus in Sderot. It’s simply to point out the absurdity of international law and the absurdity of judging a military operation’s moral standing based on legality.

The first thing that came to mind when I read the article at the end of this post was a date: February 13, 1991. On that day, UN coalition forces dropped a highly sophisticated smart bomb upon a fortified bunker in Iraq. The smart-bomb entered the bunker through a shaft on the roof, made its way through the ventilation system, navigated to the core of the building, and detonated in such a way as to maximize the damage. It killed nearly 500 women and children. The militants had filled their bunker with civilians. Saddam Hussein used pictures of burnt children and dead women to win his greatest propaganda victory during the war.

It just seems strange to me that the UN launched this attack on a target they were unable to distinguish as a military target when such an action:


would seem to constitute a war crime of the greatest magnitude under international law.


The United Nations has failed to live up to its own standard, but expects everyone else to do so?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072481.html
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Is it even possible to fight a modern war with morals and rules?
Hamas can only use this strategy of guerrilla warfare because if they applied any other strategy they would be obliterated.
And because Israel is unable to see who is a enemy militant and who isn't making it so hard to try not to harm civilians (assuming they try ofcourse...).
But this isn't just only in the Hamas vs Israel case, it also counts for the Taliban, Al Qaida, even the Vietcong (I forgot the official name sorry) used this strategy, because it is the only slightly effective way versus a superior force.

And do you not think that making rules and laws for war is ridiculous?
War is a situation of chaos and conflict, not a situation of order and peace, making it impossible to maintain rules into the situation itself.
You cannot punish a man who shot a child soldier because if he did not he himself would have died, but that doesn't mean it is horrible that that child had too die because he was brainwashed.
The problem is everyone tries to find a sophisticated solution for all these wars, but to be frankly, I do not believe there isn't any solution except for one side completely giving up and laying down their arms.

It is frustrating I know, but applying rules in warfare is pointless because the first rule should be: Do not kill or harm a other human being!
Yei
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The problem is that Israel is breaking international law to begin with, for being in Gaza. They're occupying this land, they're oppressing the people, they're breaking international law on a regular basis with their ongoing atrocities, but the discussion seems to look at the Hamas vs Israel like they're two independent countries. Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself, it can do so by ending the atrocities and occupation.

Nazi occupied France had a resistance terrorist force as well, they hid among civilians and used guerrilla warfare because they had no choice. Would anyone ever consider discussing if Germany was right to defend itself against the French Resistance by killing hundreds of civilians along with the French Resistance terrorists? Of course they had no right to respond by killing hundreds, or anyone at all, they didn't even have a right to be there. They could of defended themselves by leaving the French alone.

And these examples are not war, they're resistance groups against occupying forces, war can be a completely different situation. War rules can be silly, but I think it is necessary to make it clear what an obvious war crime is in international law. For example, if a country purposefully bombs a completely civilian population, that's a war crime, torture and other human rights violation on innocent people as well. But I think that article is about another issue.

About that UN bombing, are you talking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_massacre?

It says the US committed this horrifying war crime during the Gulf war. It's well known that the US has no regard for international law or Geneva Conventions. In a war situation, I guess these sorts of atrocities may be unavoidable sometimes because of the chaos, but even if it is unavoidable, it should still be labeled as a war crime. Of course it really doesn't matter legally if it is or isn't for some states.
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International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.
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digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


There's no oppression? Where do you get all your information on this issue?

Like I said, the problem is ignorance, people seem to have absolutely no idea when it comes to this issue.
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Yei wrote:


digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


There's no oppression? Where do you get all your information on this issue?

Like I said, the problem is ignorance, people seem to have absolutely no idea when it comes to this issue.


I get my information from the facts. The fact is that Israel forced all the Jews out of Gaza, they removed them from their homes in a militant way. This is oppression.

I do agree that ignorance is an issue, but I say this with all respect. People are ignorant of the evils of Hamas, the fact that the "Palestinian" nationality was fabricated by the Arabs, and the fact that the Arab world does not want a 2 state solution but a complete destruction of Israel. People are ignorant of Palestinian rhetoric and the two-faced actions that they do. People don't know about the bias against Israel by the UN and the blind eye that is turned to Arab nations or to injustice against Israel.
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digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


How can you be so one-sided!
Are you really that blind, do you not see what is happening to the Gaza people!
They are being oppressed by Israel, they are being cut off from supplies, from work and some of the children can't even go to their schools because of Israel blocking it thanks to the wall they are building.

Ofcourse I understand they do this out of selfprotection, thats why I do not judge them for doing so, but to completly support Israel in their oppresion and attack civilian targets is simply insane.

And what do you mean with a right to attack? Is there a right to kill others, militants and civilians?
If so then what are the requirments for get this so called right to attack? Or call it the right to kill civilians (goes for both sides).
Yei
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digs wrote:

I get my information from the facts. The fact is that Israel forced all the Jews out of Gaza, they removed them from their homes in a militant way. This is oppression.

I do agree that ignorance is an issue, but I say this with all respect. People are ignorant of the evils of Hamas, the fact that the "Palestinian" nationality was fabricated by the Arabs, and the fact that the Arab world does not want a 2 state solution but a complete destruction of Israel. People are ignorant of Palestinian rhetoric and the two-faced actions that they do. People don't know about the bias against Israel by the UN and the blind eye that is turned to Arab nations or to injustice against Israel.


I'm sensing a Fox News/Pat Robertson/ultra-republican-Christian source for facts here. And that means being willfully ignorant to many, many facts that I cannot even begin to go over now.

International law is clear, Israel's actions since 1948 have been clear, the entire world's opinion has been clear and every human rights organization in the world has been clear. You have to be very willfully ignorant to be oblivious to all that, or maybe the level of indoctrination in the US is worse than I thought.
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Posted 2/21/10 , edited 2/21/10

amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


How can you be so one-sided!
Are you really that blind, do you not see what is happening to the Gaza people!
They are being oppressed by Israel, they are being cut off from supplies, from work and some of the children can't even go to their schools because of Israel blocking it thanks to the wall they are building.

Ofcourse I understand they do this out of selfprotection, thats why I do not judge them for doing so, but to completly support Israel in their oppresion and attack civilian targets is simply insane.

And what do you mean with a right to attack? Is there a right to kill others, militants and civilians?
If so then what are the requirments for get this so called right to attack? Or call it the right to kill civilians (goes for both sides).


Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong.
I do see what is happening to the people in Gaza and it's truly an atrocity. They are enslaved by the terrorist organization named Hamas. They are murdered based on political beliefs and are used by Hamas as a shield to protect against Israeli military action. The people of Gaza are not oppressed by Israel. Israel gives them aid and went so far as to oppress Israeli citizens to ensure that the racism of the Gazan people may be appeased (not Jews allowed). What about Israeli citizens living under constant threats of missiles being launched into homes and schools by Hamas? Israel is not completely innocent, but the truth is pretty black and white. Israel had to build the wall for national security reasons, and since the wall was built there have been less suicide bombings and acts of terrorism, although Hamas has adapted by firing missiles instead.

The way I see things Israel is not being oppressive and is generally extremely moral in regards to their military and their treatment of people. In Israel there is freedom of religion. In Israel Arabs may elect anti-Israeli people to parliament that actually hurt Israeli national security. In Gaza you are killed for not supporting Hamas and all non Muslims are under extreme oppression by Hamas. I don't mean to sound disrespectful towards you and I mean no disrespect, but I think that the world is bias against Israel and largely ignores the Arab racism and the facts behind the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

And by right to attack I mean a right to defend oneself. There is a right to kill those who are trying to kill you, to defend yourself from an enemy that believes your very existence needs to be destroyed. Israel doesn't blatantly kill civilians, civilian deaths occur because Hamas is disguised as civilian, they attack from civilian and densely populated areas, and they use civilians as shields. On the flip side, Hamas specifically targets Israeli civilians and fires thousands of rockets into Israeli cities and towns. One has a right to defend themselves from an enemy, this is where killing is justified. However I would prefer them being imprisoned for life or hard labor over death, but in a war situation it is kill or be killed.


I'm sensing a Fox News/Pat Robertson/ultra-republican-Christian source for facts here. And that means being willfully ignorant to many, many facts that I cannot even begin to go over now.

International law is clear, Israel's actions since 1948 have been clear, the entire world's opinion has been clear and every human rights organization in the world has been clear. You have to be very willfully ignorant and oblivious to be this blind, or maybe the level of indoctrination in the US is worse than I thought.


No, the facts are based on what has happened. Israel did remove all the Jews from Gaza and stripped them form their homes. And so what, I believe that the conservative Christian worldview is correct, there can only be one truth. Truth is not relative. I acknowledge all facts, but you can't select the ones you want to form an opinion. The truth is that Israel is at fault, but the greatest injustice is done by the Arabs and the Palestinians. If it is illegal for Israel to have settlements then I support them removing them and tearing them down, but I do know what the Palestinians do is wrong and their rhetoric is nothing but hate, racism, and discrimination towards the Jews and Israel. The entire world's opinions have been skewed by Arabs, and they do the weak and wrong thing by siding with them because it's easier to not tick them off (especially when they have the oil). Many nations have lost their spine in order to sell out to lies and allow Israeli oppression because it's easy to just side with the Arabs (who are clearly wrong). Btw by Arabs I mean the Arab nations, not ethnic group.

The level of indoctrination in the US is terrible, that's why we have Obama as our president
Yei
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Posted 2/21/10 , edited 2/21/10

digs wrote:

No, the facts are based on what has happened. Israel did remove all the Jews from Gaza and stripped them form their homes. And so what, I believe that the conservative Christian worldview is correct, there can only be one truth. Truth is not relative. I acknowledge all facts, but you can't select the ones you want to form an opinion. The truth is that Israel is at fault, but the greatest injustice is done by the Arabs and the Palestinians. If it is illegal for Israel to have settlements then I support them removing them and tearing them down, but I do know what the Palestinians do is wrong and their rhetoric is nothing but hate, racism, and discrimination towards the Jews and Israel. The entire world's opinions have been skewed by Arabs, and they do the weak and wrong thing by siding with them because it's easier to not tick them off (especially when they have the oil). Many nations have lost their spine in order to sell out to lies and allow Israeli oppression because it's easy to just side with the Arabs (who are clearly wrong). Btw by Arabs I mean the Arab nations, not ethnic group.

The level of indoctrination in the US is terrible, that's why we have Obama as our president


I really don't see a point in discussing this then, I don't got that kind of time right now....

Yeah the entire Obama campaign and his election proved how powerful the propaganda system in the US is.
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Posted 2/21/10

digs wrote:


amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


How can you be so one-sided!
Are you really that blind, do you not see what is happening to the Gaza people!
They are being oppressed by Israel, they are being cut off from supplies, from work and some of the children can't even go to their schools because of Israel blocking it thanks to the wall they are building.

Ofcourse I understand they do this out of selfprotection, thats why I do not judge them for doing so, but to completly support Israel in their oppresion and attack civilian targets is simply insane.

And what do you mean with a right to attack? Is there a right to kill others, militants and civilians?
If so then what are the requirments for get this so called right to attack? Or call it the right to kill civilians (goes for both sides).


Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong.
I do see what is happening to the people in Gaza and it's truly an atrocity. They are enslaved by the terrorist organization named Hamas. They are murdered based on political beliefs and are used by Hamas as a shield to protect against Israeli military action. The people of Gaza are not oppressed by Israel. Israel gives them aid and went so far as to oppress Israeli citizens to ensure that the racism of the Gazan people may be appeased (not Jews allowed). What about Israeli citizens living under constant threats of missiles being launched into homes and schools by Hamas? Israel is not completely innocent, but the truth is pretty black and white. Israel had to build the wall for national security reasons, and since the wall was built there have been less suicide bombings and acts of terrorism, although Hamas has adapted by firing missiles instead.

The way I see things Israel is not being oppressive and is generally extremely moral in regards to their military and their treatment of people. In Israel there is freedom of religion. In Israel Arabs may elect anti-Israeli people to parliament that actually hurt Israeli national security. In Gaza you are killed for not supporting Hamas and all non Muslims are under extreme oppression by Hamas. I don't mean to sound disrespectful towards you and I mean no disrespect, but I think that the world is bias against Israel and largely ignores the Arab racism and the facts behind the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

And by right to attack I mean a right to defend oneself. There is a right to kill those who are trying to kill you, to defend yourself from an enemy that believes your very existence needs to be destroyed. Israel doesn't blatantly kill civilians, civilian deaths occur because Hamas is disguised as civilian, they attack from civilian and densely populated areas, and they use civilians as shields. On the flip side, Hamas specifically targets Israeli civilians and fires thousands of rockets into Israeli cities and towns. One has a right to defend themselves from an enemy, this is where killing is justified. However I would prefer them being imprisoned for life or hard labor over death, but in a war situation it is kill or be killed.


First I also do not mean to be disrespectful towards you, I was just very suprised by your post and reacted as such, I should not have reacted like that.

You are completly right about most of the Arab countrys wanting to destroy Israel, and that is a dispicable thing, and yes the world almost ignores that point.
But the truth is not black and white, you cannot fight a war on your own, 2 party's are needed for a war, and that makes them both to guilty.

If the right to attack comes from the need to defend then both party's have the right to attack!
For example: Can you blame a Gaza father that goes to war against Israel because he lost both of his daughters, or can you blame a Israelieen citizen who saw the same thing happening to him?
No, the only end to this war is for one side to just lay down their arms, and frankly because I do not see the Muslim extremist do this any time soon, then it should be Israel, setting a example to the entire world, offense is not the best defense.
People should choose for peace instead of going to war, life is something too precious to lose in conflict.


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Posted 2/21/10 , edited 2/21/10

amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:


amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


How can you be so one-sided!
Are you really that blind, do you not see what is happening to the Gaza people!
They are being oppressed by Israel, they are being cut off from supplies, from work and some of the children can't even go to their schools because of Israel blocking it thanks to the wall they are building.

Ofcourse I understand they do this out of selfprotection, thats why I do not judge them for doing so, but to completly support Israel in their oppresion and attack civilian targets is simply insane.

And what do you mean with a right to attack? Is there a right to kill others, militants and civilians?
If so then what are the requirments for get this so called right to attack? Or call it the right to kill civilians (goes for both sides).


Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong.
I do see what is happening to the people in Gaza and it's truly an atrocity. They are enslaved by the terrorist organization named Hamas. They are murdered based on political beliefs and are used by Hamas as a shield to protect against Israeli military action. The people of Gaza are not oppressed by Israel. Israel gives them aid and went so far as to oppress Israeli citizens to ensure that the racism of the Gazan people may be appeased (not Jews allowed). What about Israeli citizens living under constant threats of missiles being launched into homes and schools by Hamas? Israel is not completely innocent, but the truth is pretty black and white. Israel had to build the wall for national security reasons, and since the wall was built there have been less suicide bombings and acts of terrorism, although Hamas has adapted by firing missiles instead.

The way I see things Israel is not being oppressive and is generally extremely moral in regards to their military and their treatment of people. In Israel there is freedom of religion. In Israel Arabs may elect anti-Israeli people to parliament that actually hurt Israeli national security. In Gaza you are killed for not supporting Hamas and all non Muslims are under extreme oppression by Hamas. I don't mean to sound disrespectful towards you and I mean no disrespect, but I think that the world is bias against Israel and largely ignores the Arab racism and the facts behind the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

And by right to attack I mean a right to defend oneself. There is a right to kill those who are trying to kill you, to defend yourself from an enemy that believes your very existence needs to be destroyed. Israel doesn't blatantly kill civilians, civilian deaths occur because Hamas is disguised as civilian, they attack from civilian and densely populated areas, and they use civilians as shields. On the flip side, Hamas specifically targets Israeli civilians and fires thousands of rockets into Israeli cities and towns. One has a right to defend themselves from an enemy, this is where killing is justified. However I would prefer them being imprisoned for life or hard labor over death, but in a war situation it is kill or be killed.


First I also do not mean to be disrespectful towards you, I was just very suprised by your post and reacted as such, I should not have reacted like that.

You are completly right about most of the Arab countrys wanting to destroy Israel, and that is a dispicable thing, and yes the world almost ignores that point.
But the truth is not black and white, you cannot fight a war on your own, 2 party's are needed for a war, and that makes them both to guilty.

If the right to attack comes from the need to defend then both party's have the right to attack!
For example: Can you blame a Gaza father that goes to war against Israel because he lost both of his daughters, or can you blame a Israelieen citizen who saw the same thing happening to him?
No, the only end to this war is for one side to just lay down their arms, and frankly because I do not see the Muslim extremist do this any time soon, then it should be Israel, setting a example to the entire world, offense is not the best defense.
People should choose for peace instead of going to war, life is something too precious to lose in conflict.




It's all ok. when I read your post I knew that you had an admirable heart. It is good to look out for the poor and oppressed. I know we may disagree on some things, but I know your stances are based on compassion and not on wickedness (as I know mine are as well).

War is a necessary evil, I think judgement should be taken based on the reason for killing. The way I see things, Israel is not killing Gazans because they want to take over the Gaza strip or to have a Muslim genocide. Hamas is abusing and oppressing the people in Gaza in order to fulfill their ideology and goal that all the Jews must be killed and that Israel should become a Muslim state governed by Sharia law. I do think that the truth is black and white though, there are lies and there are facts. The truth may be black and white, but the blame is not. Israel has done wrong as well, but I do think the majority of the blame goes to Hamas and the Arab nations. The blame is not equal, however both sides should be judged justly. The way I see it, Israel killed members of Hamas to try and protect the Israeli citizens. Hamas has killed Israeli citizens because they believe the Jews must die and the nation of Israel be destroyed. In the instance of war there are two sides, one side is the aggressor (Hamas) and the other side is defending against the aggressor (Israel). You are right in that it takes 2 sides to have a war, but war is started when one side becomes violent and the other side must retaliate as an act of defense. In some instances both sides can be aggressors, but in the Israel-Palestine conflict I think Israel is trying to defend itself from the Arab nations and from Hamas. And I strongly agree with your statement "life is something too precious to lose in conflict." That comment is spot on and 100% true.
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Posted 2/21/10

digs wrote:


amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:


amersfoort wrote:


digs wrote:

International war laws should be abolished. Most of them are just stupid anyway. The only crime Israel committed was not fully eradicating Hamas and jailing all of the extremists. Gaza needs another clean sweep. For the sake of the Gazans and Israelis, Hamas must be destroyed. Gaza has no right to attack Israel anyway, there is no "oppression." The only oppression that went on is when Israel invaded the Gaza territory to force all the Jews out of their homes and handed it over to a monstrous political party. That's true oppression.


How can you be so one-sided!
Are you really that blind, do you not see what is happening to the Gaza people!
They are being oppressed by Israel, they are being cut off from supplies, from work and some of the children can't even go to their schools because of Israel blocking it thanks to the wall they are building.

Ofcourse I understand they do this out of selfprotection, thats why I do not judge them for doing so, but to completly support Israel in their oppresion and attack civilian targets is simply insane.

And what do you mean with a right to attack? Is there a right to kill others, militants and civilians?
If so then what are the requirments for get this so called right to attack? Or call it the right to kill civilians (goes for both sides).


Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong.
I do see what is happening to the people in Gaza and it's truly an atrocity. They are enslaved by the terrorist organization named Hamas. They are murdered based on political beliefs and are used by Hamas as a shield to protect against Israeli military action. The people of Gaza are not oppressed by Israel. Israel gives them aid and went so far as to oppress Israeli citizens to ensure that the racism of the Gazan people may be appeased (not Jews allowed). What about Israeli citizens living under constant threats of missiles being launched into homes and schools by Hamas? Israel is not completely innocent, but the truth is pretty black and white. Israel had to build the wall for national security reasons, and since the wall was built there have been less suicide bombings and acts of terrorism, although Hamas has adapted by firing missiles instead.

The way I see things Israel is not being oppressive and is generally extremely moral in regards to their military and their treatment of people. In Israel there is freedom of religion. In Israel Arabs may elect anti-Israeli people to parliament that actually hurt Israeli national security. In Gaza you are killed for not supporting Hamas and all non Muslims are under extreme oppression by Hamas. I don't mean to sound disrespectful towards you and I mean no disrespect, but I think that the world is bias against Israel and largely ignores the Arab racism and the facts behind the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

And by right to attack I mean a right to defend oneself. There is a right to kill those who are trying to kill you, to defend yourself from an enemy that believes your very existence needs to be destroyed. Israel doesn't blatantly kill civilians, civilian deaths occur because Hamas is disguised as civilian, they attack from civilian and densely populated areas, and they use civilians as shields. On the flip side, Hamas specifically targets Israeli civilians and fires thousands of rockets into Israeli cities and towns. One has a right to defend themselves from an enemy, this is where killing is justified. However I would prefer them being imprisoned for life or hard labor over death, but in a war situation it is kill or be killed.


First I also do not mean to be disrespectful towards you, I was just very suprised by your post and reacted as such, I should not have reacted like that.

You are completly right about most of the Arab countrys wanting to destroy Israel, and that is a dispicable thing, and yes the world almost ignores that point.
But the truth is not black and white, you cannot fight a war on your own, 2 party's are needed for a war, and that makes them both to guilty.

If the right to attack comes from the need to defend then both party's have the right to attack!
For example: Can you blame a Gaza father that goes to war against Israel because he lost both of his daughters, or can you blame a Israelieen citizen who saw the same thing happening to him?
No, the only end to this war is for one side to just lay down their arms, and frankly because I do not see the Muslim extremist do this any time soon, then it should be Israel, setting a example to the entire world, offense is not the best defense.
People should choose for peace instead of going to war, life is something too precious to lose in conflict.




It's all ok. when I read your post I knew that you had an admirable heart. It is good to look out for the poor and oppressed. I know we may disagree on some things, but I know your stances are based on compassion and not on wickedness (as I know mine are as well).

War is a necessary evil, I think judgement should be taken based on the reason for killing. The way I see things, Israel is not killing Gazans because they want to take over the Gaza strip or to have a Muslim genocide. Hamas is abusing and oppressing the people in Gaza in order to fulfill their ideology and goal that all the Jews must be killed and that Israel should become a Muslim state governed by Sharia law. I do think that the truth is black and white though, there are lies and there are facts. The truth may be black and white, but the blame is not. Israel has done wrong as well, but I do think the majority of the blame goes to Hamas and the Arab nations. The blame is not equal, however both sides should be judged justly. The way I see it, Israel killed members of Hamas to try and protect the Israeli citizens. Hamas has killed Israeli citizens because they believe the Jews must die and the nation of Israel be destroyed. In the instance of war there are two sides, one side is the aggressor (Hamas) and the other side is defending against the aggressor (Israel). You are right in that it takes 2 sides to have a war, but war is started when one side becomes violent and the other side must retaliate as an act of defense. In some instances both sides can be aggressors, but in the Israel-Palestine conflict I think Israel is trying to defend itself from the Arab nations and from Hamas. And I strongly agree with your statement "life is something too precious to lose in conflict." That comment is spot on and 100% true.


It is indeed that Israel is not killing Gazans because of hatred for them, but killing is killing, the dead are dead and wont come back because of reasons, the people left behind do not care if Gaza (I used Israel too much for my examples) had a good reason to defend themselfes with a rocket attack, and neither do the people of Gaza care when Israel defends itmself with an attack.
With this going on there will be no true peace between Hamas and Israel, because even if treaty's are signed hatred will not dissappear because of them.
Ofcourse it seems like it is impossible to have peace when the Arab countrys are out to destroy Israel, but that can change over time (not speaking in months here), And as long as Israel acts violently this will not happen.
Right now Gaza and Israel are in a cyclus of hatred, by attacking Israeli city's Hamas only creates hatred, but on the other side Israel bombing schools (happens, heard it on the news here) they will only create a new generation full of anger towards Israel.

Truth is, there is no sollution in this matter, I just realized this while typing this post, the hatred towards Israel is enormous, and yes Israel has every right to protect itself, but with doing so only increases the anger towards itself.

Wiping out Hamas is not the sollution, another organisation will then rise against Israel (being probably more aggressive and radical).
The only thing that can stop this situation of meaningless bloodshedding is a complete determined treaty coming from one of the party's involved.

But now I shall stop typing and go to sleep, I shall continue on this interesting thread tomorrow.
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