Lobbyists and "Freedom of Speech"
Yei
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Posted 3/16/10 , edited 3/16/10
I don't know why I didn't hear about this until now: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22donate.html

To get a little background information, or just to be more informed, I recommend watching the greatest Canadian documentary of all time: The Corporation.

A long time ago, lawyers working for corporations made the case that corporations should be treated as 'persons' and therefore get all the rights everyone gets in the country. To me, this obviously makes no sense at all, but it worked, and then corporations got ridiculous amounts of freedom to do whatever they wanted.

Everyone in the US recognizes that lobbying is a serious problem, it basically destroys democracy and the whole foundation of the political system. Everyone agrees it should be limited as much as possible, and yet the supreme court just did the opposite. And the rational goes back to the idea of corporations being persons; they have freedom of speech. It's strange that this hasn't caused more of an uproar, I almost didn't even hear about it.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/the-judiciary/77489-supreme-court-legalizes-everything-america-hates-about-lobbyists-buying-washington

I knew the supreme court was corrupt, but this is ridiculous.
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digs 
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Posted 3/16/10
Many in America are angry with this ruling, however both Republicans and Democrats benefit from it, so it is going ignored. What I think should happen is that all congressman give up their freedom of privacy. Meaning the American people get to know all of their finances and where it comes from and who they have been talking too. The way things work now is that lobbyists buy votes from congressman. They promise them stock or money if they vote for certain legislation, and the congressman gets paid in office or when his term is over. These deals destroy Democracy and essentially put lobbyists ahead of the people. What the Supreme Court did was wrong, but we instead need to overhall the lobbying system. Obama promised to remove the lobbyists, yet it seems he listens to them and is affected by them more than any other administration.
Posted 3/16/10 , edited 3/16/10
Regardless of the political consequences, the fact that even the lawyers themselves had the concept of freedom wrong, suggests that none of you can argue individual rights and freedom rationally. When you yourselves can't rationalize how freedom is actually the moral vehicle that delivers us to humanity, by dignifying humanity itself via moral reasoning.

For example, how is it morally fair and just for anyone to only demand all congressmen to give up their freedom of privacy? When there are citizens entitling their rights for their freedom of privacy.

Therefore the fact that how there are individuals who don't obey natural laws, due to their desires being their motives. So is why corporations and governments are just institutions empowered by individuals, who don't obey natural laws due to their desires being their motives.

For what its worth, it's the thought that counts. When the end doesn't justify the means.
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Posted 3/16/10
To my knowledge it's the 14th Amendment (The Red Amendment) is what made corperations reguarded to be entitled the same as human beings.

In a SCOTUS case Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company,
"The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does."
In other words, corporations enjoyed the same rights under the Fourteenth Amendment as did natural persons.

So if you want to fix the problem, repeal the 14th amendment.

As for corperation lobbying congress; they do have that right presently under the 1st Amendment.
...to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And finally; to add my cherry on top... As for corperations destroying democracy... good.
One less bad form of governmnet to worry about. Two more to go...
Posted 3/16/10

Weapon-01 wrote:



And finally; to add my cherry on top... As for corperations destroying democracy... good.
One less bad form of governmnet to worry about. Two more to go...
What is democracy as totalitarian tyranny to individuality.
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Posted 3/16/10

Yei wrote:

Everyone in the US recognizes that lobbying is a serious problem, it basically destroys democracy and the whole foundation of the political system. Everyone agrees it should be limited as much as possible, and yet the supreme court just did the opposite. And the rational goes back to the idea of corporations being persons; they have freedom of speech. It's strange that this hasn't caused more of an uproar, I almost didn't even hear about it.

I knew the supreme court was corrupt, but this is ridiculous.


I don’t recognize that lobbyists are a problem. They’re just professional political activists paid to make a case for their cause to our government officials. I learned in my government class the important role they play in our system. Without lobbyists, most of our senators and house representatives wouldn’t even know what was going on.

I think this is insane. That would be like getting all of your information from Michael Moore or Bill O’Reilly. (Bill O’Reilly is the Faux news guy with the scary ass blue-eyes, right? The Mormon?)

Still, they serve a purpose, and have made contributions to causes I consider good in the past. For example, the civil rights movement was largely pushed by lobbyists hired by African American religious institutions. Today, abortion is largely pushed by lobbyists hired by Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers.

These individuals are just doing the same thing the rest of us are. They’re pushing a personal political agenda, trying to get changes they want. The difference is that they are better at it. They have put themselves in a position where they have more voice, more resources, and they get paid for being activists so that they can dedicate more time and energy to the cause. Other activists have jobs and such responsibilities to distract them. Lobbyists are provided for by whoever the hell is paying them.
Yei
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Posted 3/16/10 , edited 3/16/10

SeraphAlford wrote:

I don’t recognize that lobbyists are a problem. They’re just professional political activists paid to make a case for their cause to our government officials. I learned in my government class the important role they play in our system. Without lobbyists, most of our senators and house representatives wouldn’t even know what was going on.

I think this is insane. That would be like getting all of your information from Michael Moore or Bill O’Reilly. (Bill O’Reilly is the Faux news guy with the scary ass blue-eyes, right? The Mormon?)

Still, they serve a purpose, and have made contributions to causes I consider good in the past. For example, the civil rights movement was largely pushed by lobbyists hired by African American religious institutions. Today, abortion is largely pushed by lobbyists hired by Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers.

These individuals are just doing the same thing the rest of us are. They’re pushing a personal political agenda, trying to get changes they want. The difference is that they are better at it. They have put themselves in a position where they have more voice, more resources, and they get paid for being activists so that they can dedicate more time and energy to the cause. Other activists have jobs and such responsibilities to distract them. Lobbyists are provided for by whoever the hell is paying them.


Why wouldn't the senators and house representatives know what's going without lobbyists? Are they that useless?

Lobbyists are a problem because the US is a democracy. Not a state where the few people with the most money and loudest voices get their way. That would make it a polycarchy. I guess technically, the actual lobbying is not the problem, the accepting of it by politicians is. But isn't blackmail or bribery a crime in some cases? And I don't think it can be compared to political activism, the corporations are not putting out commercials for what they want to happen in the government, they don't walk around trying to convince people to think like them, they just bribe or blackmail politicians with large sums of money. They're good at it because they have money, not because they have good, convincing reasons to do all the horrible things corporations do.

I agree with dig's idea. In a representative democracy, the politicians should be representing the people who elected them (shocking). Politicians should merely be figures that do what the people want them to do, so they should have to sacrifice some privacy to let the people know if they ever take any bribes. If it's discovered they've been working for any lobbyists they should lose their positions for threatening democracy. Lobbying essentially threatens democracy, because not all politicians have perfect principles.
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Posted 3/16/10
The U.S.A is a republic do to criminal action in the State off Illinois the (Chicago) corrupted the states rights. That why we elect are senators i think 17 or 18nth amendment. Which undermines the whole process. local election are not as important basic Senator having to pander for votes was not the intentions of the founding fathers. Corporation just like democracies are easy to corrupt. Most the problem of today's world is the give me mentality. Please show me where a majority rule has ever lasted. Normally they fall into cause and turn into a repressive government Third Reich Communism. were million upon million where murder. Hitler was small potato's compared to Stallion the first Chinese leader can't remember name. this gets back to elected official 500 something to over 38 thousand lobbyist. Free health care only because of wage freeze during WW2. President Franklin D Roosevelt prolong the depression with his policy and and just as big of a bigot as Teddy Roosevelt. I had to through that one just for fun. putting bad CEO and company for life would correct this problem. Housing market that mess should be laid at Fanny May and Freddie Mac door privet yet government controlled housing clearing market. To me no one bank should control more the 5% of the wealth in this country. But you will find a politician or government worker allowing or not doing there job behind allot of this. House and Senate are not to fired up about prosecuting of the CEO do to their own deals.
Posted 3/16/10 , edited 3/16/10
Upon further contemplation, this legislation just means that even lobbyists and special interest groups can now spend negative propaganda campaign advertisements. And since it was the politicians themselves who started applying this technique among themselves during elections, why can't other individuals be entitled to start throwing mud at each other? It's just legalized flaming and trolling each other in open public, with or without the internet. People like to see more mud throwing? Then let's give the people what they want. Or is it now?

You thought things looked ugly while nothing got done before? Well now you've got a reason to think again, and HOW!

There. Are. Four. Lights. Now talk about a great display of an individual's freedom of speech.
Posted 3/17/10
sigh yeah i was really pissed off by this ruling, but that is usually how things work out in the end. Now we will have corporations to tell us how much to live our lives as much as government now because they will put people in power and In government. Why can't I live in country with little or no government control?? I pay my bills and my taxes why do I have to be forced to think and feel a certain way as well. Sorry for ranting but I had to get that off my chest.
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Posted 3/19/10
Is it not funny (left or right) freedom of speech is only good if it support there political views. Otherwise it is called hate speech or anti-religious. People this country almost need to be slaughtered off, they do not want to make decision for thier selfs espicailly the hard ones Then they demand the government to intervene on there behalf. Really simple thing run up your credit cards the file for bankruptcy, one of my favor it is a drug user blaming the man for their problem. I love to ask them wheres the gun pointed at them to do such things.I have found when playing this game it best to have some space between you and the Whack Job. I believe oneself responsibility's and decision you make good or bad you have to live with. That what made this country great it up to you to do it. DAM I got off subject bad Corporations and bad Government not a hole lot of deference. Crooked book keeping lying the one thing a Cooperation cannot do is put a gun to your head, and make you give up money. Government will use force and dose it way to often. By the way corporation really do not pay taxes they factor that in when making the item/sale's. You might like to look at the Fair Tax lobbing group. At first I thought about the Canadian then realized what the point just look at there health care. Lobbyist can be good but most our in DC asking for special favors and kick backs in money jobs votes and it not just corporation. AARP has way to much power, that drug bill Bush Passed is one ugly stepchild. Peta, GE has it head so fer up everyone butt because the green energy movement there Trillions of dollars. There a different between lobbying and back room deals.
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