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US healthcare bill
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Posted 3/23/10

Yei wrote:

I don't know a lot about this bill, it's supposed to bring universal health care, right? I know the majority of Americans want health care reform. Wait, it gives money to health care companies and raises prices for everyone? What about universal health care?

How do you know the majority of Americans oppose this bill? I can't find a poll on it.

I don't got time read over the whole bill, but the summaries of it I've read doesn't make it seem worse than the system the US has had for years. One problem I can see is that it seems like it's being rushed and very few Americans know what it would do.


My main complaint about the health care bill is that it makes health care a requirement. I do not like the idea of being forced to purchase something. I am also suspicious as to its implications on the abortion issue. The whole thing feels ambiguous and intentionally obscure.

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Posted 3/23/10

DomFortress wrote:


digs wrote:



My price? I think all life is precious, including that which has not been born yet. This bill doesn't offer universal healthcare, in fact it hurts others with insurance. You haven't addressed the fact that the majority of America does not want this bill, yet our representatives voted for it. That is wrong, and sure enough the American people are furious about this.
So safe sex via aborting contraception during sexual intercourse is a waste? When every time people having sex is a possibility of creating an unborn life.

Also, you're the one who keeps avoiding the fact that why people didn't want this bill to pass, simply because some constituents wanted a different bill. One that will further violate the individual legal rights of how private health insurance companies should do their business. For that would be considered as socialism or even worst, communism.

Yeah, I say you're right on the count that the Republicans are doing their job at preventing the US becoming a socialist or even a communist society. But even when their constituents are getting more money form this bill, just who are getting played by the Republicans?


Contraception isn't abortion, don't use a straw man argument like that. I am talking about a fertilized egg/zygote, not a sperm cell or preventing fertilization. People didn't want this bill because it's bad and unconstitutional. The undisputed fact is that the majority of people said no, our representatives said yes despite what we wanted. No one is getting played by Republicans, the truth is that Democrat areas got special deals and Democrat senators were bought out by special expensive deals. All of our tax dollars are going to Louisiana because the Democrat senator needed to be bought out before he voted for this. What is infuriating America is that we do not want this! The majority said no, and our representatives betrayed us to stay loyal to party ties. There was absolutely no bipartisan support for this, there was bipartisan opposition to it. Essentially communism has won, democracy got a slap in the face because political party ties and liberal ideology was chosen over the will of the people.
Posted 3/23/10

digs wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


digs wrote:



My price? I think all life is precious, including that which has not been born yet. This bill doesn't offer universal healthcare, in fact it hurts others with insurance. You haven't addressed the fact that the majority of America does not want this bill, yet our representatives voted for it. That is wrong, and sure enough the American people are furious about this.
So safe sex via aborting contraception during sexual intercourse is a waste? When every time people having sex is a possibility of creating an unborn life.

Also, you're the one who keeps avoiding the fact that why people didn't want this bill to pass, simply because some constituents wanted a different bill. One that will further violate the individual legal rights of how private health insurance companies should do their business. For that would be considered as socialism or even worst, communism.

Yeah, I say you're right on the count that the Republicans are doing their job at preventing the US becoming a socialist or even a communist society. But even when their constituents are getting more money form this bill, just who are getting played by the Republicans?


Contraception isn't abortion, don't use a straw man argument like that. I am talking about a fertilized egg/zygote, not a sperm cell or preventing fertilization. People didn't want this bill because it's bad and unconstitutional. The undisputed fact is that the majority of people said no, our representatives said yes despite what we wanted. No one is getting played by Republicans, the truth is that Democrat areas got special deals and Democrat senators were bought out by special expensive deals. All of our tax dollars are going to Louisiana because the Democrat senator needed to be bought out before he voted for this. What is infuriating America is that we do not want this! The majority said no, and our representatives betrayed us to stay loyal to party ties. There was absolutely no bipartisan support for this, there was bipartisan opposition to it. Essentially communism has won, democracy got a slap in the face because political party ties and liberal ideology was chosen over the will of the people.
Gee, you're sounding like the Republicans who only looking out for the individual special interests of the private sectors. So when even the private sector like the health insurance companies are benefiting from this bill via more federal funding and more head counts, what's your problem?

Furthermore, this bill means that the private health insurance companies can now open for business with abortion. Which ensures the protection of more American individuals' lifestyle choice of entitlement. So isn't that ultimately democracy being preserved? Or do you just want free lunches with a cake on top?
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digs 
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Posted 3/23/10

DomFortress wrote:


digs wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


digs wrote:



My price? I think all life is precious, including that which has not been born yet. This bill doesn't offer universal healthcare, in fact it hurts others with insurance. You haven't addressed the fact that the majority of America does not want this bill, yet our representatives voted for it. That is wrong, and sure enough the American people are furious about this.
So safe sex via aborting contraception during sexual intercourse is a waste? When every time people having sex is a possibility of creating an unborn life.

Also, you're the one who keeps avoiding the fact that why people didn't want this bill to pass, simply because some constituents wanted a different bill. One that will further violate the individual legal rights of how private health insurance companies should do their business. For that would be considered as socialism or even worst, communism.

Yeah, I say you're right on the count that the Republicans are doing their job at preventing the US becoming a socialist or even a communist society. But even when their constituents are getting more money form this bill, just who are getting played by the Republicans?


Contraception isn't abortion, don't use a straw man argument like that. I am talking about a fertilized egg/zygote, not a sperm cell or preventing fertilization. People didn't want this bill because it's bad and unconstitutional. The undisputed fact is that the majority of people said no, our representatives said yes despite what we wanted. No one is getting played by Republicans, the truth is that Democrat areas got special deals and Democrat senators were bought out by special expensive deals. All of our tax dollars are going to Louisiana because the Democrat senator needed to be bought out before he voted for this. What is infuriating America is that we do not want this! The majority said no, and our representatives betrayed us to stay loyal to party ties. There was absolutely no bipartisan support for this, there was bipartisan opposition to it. Essentially communism has won, democracy got a slap in the face because political party ties and liberal ideology was chosen over the will of the people.
Gee, you're sounding like the Republicans who only looking out for the individual special interests of the private sectors. So when even the private sector like the health insurance companies are benefiting from this bill via more federal funding and more head counts, what's your problem?

Furthermore, this bill means that the private health insurance companies can now open for business with abortion. Which ensures the protection of more American individuals' lifestyle choice of entitlement. So isn't that ultimately democracy being preserved? Or do you just want free lunches with a cake on top?


Rofl what? The Democrats just voted along party lines and ignored the American people!!! THEY were the ones who caved into special interests, just look at US insurance companies' stocks right now! Who is the one who looks out for individual interests? Democrat senators got special deals for themselves by voting for this, certain districts got extra in this bill to win the votes of Democrats. this vote was COMPLETELY PARTISAN!. The only bipartisan thing was that some Democrats and all Republicans voted against this bill. The insurance companies benefit because EVERYONE is forced to buy THEIR PRIVATE SERVICE! Federal funding does go up along with taxes, this bill will result in a deficit within a few years.

What about the fetus' rights? I am not going to get into the abortion debate now, but it's an atrocity what has happened in regards to human rights and the rights of the unborn. You haven't even addressed the fact that the majority of America said no to this bill, yet the completely partisan vote was forced down our throats by those who are elected to represent us. This is so so wrong, it's a disgraceful and sad day for America and the American people.

Yei
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Posted 3/23/10 , edited 3/23/10

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

I don't know a lot about this bill, it's supposed to bring universal health care, right? I know the majority of Americans want health care reform. Wait, it gives money to health care companies and raises prices for everyone? What about universal health care?

How do you know the majority of Americans oppose this bill? I can't find a poll on it.

I don't got time read over the whole bill, but the summaries of it I've read doesn't make it seem worse than the system the US has had for years. One problem I can see is that it seems like it's being rushed and very few Americans know what it would do.


My main complaint about the health care bill is that it makes health care a requirement. I do not like the idea of being forced to purchase something. I am also suspicious as to its implications on the abortion issue. The whole thing feels ambiguous and intentionally obscure.



I still don't understand it, so does it bring universal health care? I heard the US is going to spend almost one trillion dollars on it, so everyone buys health insurance and the government will pay for everyone?
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Posted 3/23/10 , edited 3/23/10
First off Dom Fortress no offense, but you are not a citizen of the affected country, you don't know jack squat about the bill itself, and you clearly know nothing about Barak Obama. As for your abortion nonsense you also missed the fact that Obama promised no federal funding would be given to support abortion clinics in the coming years to buy the last couple votes. What that means in layman's terms is Obama a democrat who is supposedly pro choice actually made a direct statement that he would prevent all future federal funding of abortion so he could get some votes for his bill. He only cares about one thing, furthering his personal political ambition which is blatantly the government taking total control of the private sector. If you don't believe me we can ask the automotive, banking, and insurance industries I bet they will back me on this one since every one of them has come under government control since Obama went into office.

Meanwhile american's do not want Universal Health Care. This is not Canada. You have according to google 33 million or so citizens in Canada the US has over 300 million. Do the math it isn't hard. It shouldn't take a genius or an economist to figure out the health care plan for 33 mil people probably wont work when you multiple the numbers by 10.

Why was I opposed to this health care bill? Well lets see. In one year Obama has already spent more money than Bush and Clinton did combined over 16 years, he is going to gut medicare which I am sure works great for my Grandad with alzheimers, a local school just had the gym roof collapse... too bad they are 5 mil under budget not that every other school in my state is any better, we also just laid off around 10% of the local police because we couldn't afford to pay their salaries, to add the icing the local jobless rate is now the highest it has ever been in over 20 years. So yeah jacking up my health costs, creating a waiting list so long I can't even begin to guess how bad it is when it already takes 5 hours to get basic treatment at a hospital, raising my taxes, fining me for trying to save money by not having insurance, and screwing over my elderly relatives all the while firing police, teachers, and business are closing left and right.... Gee something just doesn't add up for me.

Also bear in mind this "bill" which isn't even universal health care which you seem to think america wants is already going to cost a insignificant 950 BILLION DOLLARS, good thing we are willing to sell out the elderly to save some costs on this bill based around good will and moral treatment of all people.

PS: As an aside where I work I have around 50 coworkers. Over 30 of them voted for Obama. Of those 30 I have spoken so far to around... 20 of them. Of that 20 all but one was 100% totally opposed to this health care bill. Makes you wonder.
Posted 3/23/10 , edited 3/23/10

Karkarov wrote:

First off Dom Fortress no offense, but you are not a citizen of the affected country, you don't know jack squat about the bill itself, and you clearly know nothing about Barak Obama. As for your abortion nonsense you also missed the fact that Obama promised no federal funding would be given to support abortion clinics in the coming years to buy the last couple votes. What that means in layman's terms is Obama a democrat who is supposedly pro choice actually made a direct statement that he would prevent all future federal funding of abortion so he could get some votes for his bill. He only cares about one thing, furthering his personal political ambition which is blatantly the government taking total control of the private sector. If you don't believe me we can ask the automotive, banking, and insurance industries I bet they will back me on this one since every one of them has come under government control since Obama went into office.

Meanwhile american's do not want Universal Health Care. This is not Canada. You have according to google 33 million or so citizens in Canada the US has over 300 million. Do the math it isn't hard. It shouldn't take a genius or an economist to figure out the health care plan for 33 mil people probably wont work when you multiple the numbers by 10.

Why was I opposed to this health care bill? Well lets see. In one year Obama has already spent more money than Bush and Clinton did combined over 16 years, he is going to gut medicare which I am sure works great for my Grandad with alzheimers, a local school just had the gym roof collapse... too bad they are 5 mil under budget not that every other school in my state is any better, we also just laid off around 10% of the local police because we couldn't afford to pay their salaries, to add the icing the local jobless rate is now the highest it has ever been in over 20 years. So yeah jacking up my health costs, creating a waiting list so long I can't even begin to guess how bad it is when it already takes 5 hours to get basic treatment at a hospital, raising my taxes, fining me for trying to save money by not having insurance, and screwing over my elderly relatives all the while firing police, teachers, and business are closing left and right.... Gee something just doesn't add up for me.

Also bear in mind this "bill" which isn't even universal health care which you seem to think america wants is already going to cost a insignificant 950 BILLION DOLLARS, good thing we are willing to sell out the elderly to save some costs on this bill based around good will and moral treatment of all people.

PS: As an aside where I work I have around 50 coworkers. Over 30 of them voted for Obama. Of those 30 I have spoken so far to around... 20 of them. Of that 20 all but one was 100% totally opposed to this health care bill. Makes you wonder.
Really now? Because I beg to differ, when you know just as well as I do, that you know absolutely nothing about the real content of this health care bill.

When disinformation is an art of war, it makes you wonder the validity of any dispute regarding this bill. For all I can see are individuals panicking at the unknown, and that's somehow beautiful.

In the meantime, I'll do what I've always been doing proactively with my own health.
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Posted 3/23/10

DomFortressReally now? Because I beg to differ, when you know just as well as I do, that you know absolutely nothing about the real content of this health care bill.

When disinformation is an art of war, it makes you wonder the validity of any dispute regarding this bill. For all I can see are individuals panicking at the unknown, and that's somehow beautiful.

In the meantime, I'll do what I've always been doing proactively with my own health.


Very impressive post Dom. It takes alot of skill to exhale that much hot air yet never manage to say anything. You really should seek office you will fit right in.
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Posted 3/23/10

Yei wrote:

I still don't understand it, so does it bring universal health care? I heard the US is going to spend almost one trillion dollars on it, so everyone buys health insurance and the government will pay for everyone?


Well, in the long run it is going to cost significantly more than one trillion, but then the price of any ongoing expense adds up. Right now we do not have the money, so a major part of the bill is about raising the money. We are not expected to see any benefits until at least 2011 and possible longer. In the meantime we are going to start saving. We’ll raise funds through taxation and by shaving off loose ends in the budget. Nobody seems exactly certain how we are going to get the money in its entirety, but we know that taxation and redirecting funds from other areas will play roles.

Will it provide universal healthcare? Yes and no. Yes in that being uninsured will be illegal making health insurance universal among all law abiding citizens. No in that the bill does actually “provide,” that healthcare. Instead it expands already existing programs (like medicare,) and starts placing certain restrictions on the conditions the private healthcare providers can place on their deals. For example, the price of healthcare will be regulated to a certain “affordable,” rate. So the private sector still does the providing, they just don’t have the same power. Which is not really “bad,” per se.

The problem is that there was a lot of politicking and pork-bellied bribery going on. For example, certain democratic senators were ambivalent on the bill. They agreed to bandwagon up with the majority of their party in exchange for a tag on to the bill stating that their respective states be exempt from the taxes that apply to everyone else. The republicans are challenging this as unconstitutional (though I do not think it is unconstitutional. It is not fair and shows the corruption of our system, but I do not think they have much of a case here,) and intend to challenge the bill in the Supreme Court on this premise as well as others. (They are going to address each different approach separately instead of presenting them cumulatively. This way, even if they lose they can still delay the bill and stall it further.)

The fact is that none of the legislators have read the bill. They've more or less gotten some cliff notes and then vote in accordance with their party. Those who are a little more free minded are simply bribed. There are enough democrats that the republicans are not needed so they get left out of the bribery and are bitter because of it.

This whole issue demonstrates how jaded our system, president, senate, and house of reps all are.
Posted 3/23/10

SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

I still don't understand it, so does it bring universal health care? I heard the US is going to spend almost one trillion dollars on it, so everyone buys health insurance and the government will pay for everyone?


Well, in the long run it is going to cost significantly more than one trillion, but then the price of any ongoing expense adds up. Right now we do not have the money, so a major part of the bill is about raising the money. We are not expected to see any benefits until at least 2011 and possible longer. In the meantime we are going to start saving. We’ll raise funds through taxation and by shaving off loose ends in the budget. Nobody seems exactly certain how we are going to get the money in its entirety, but we know that taxation and redirecting funds from other areas will play roles.

Will it provide universal healthcare? Yes and no. Yes in that being uninsured will be illegal making health insurance universal among all law abiding citizens. No in that the bill does actually “provide,” that healthcare. Instead it expands already existing programs (like medicare,) and starts placing certain restrictions on the conditions the private healthcare providers can place on their deals. For example, the price of healthcare will be regulated to a certain “affordable,” rate. So the private sector still does the providing, they just don’t have the same power. Which is not really “bad,” per se.

The problem is that there was a lot of politicking and pork-bellied bribery going on. For example, certain democratic senators were ambivalent on the bill. They agreed to bandwagon up with the majority of their party in exchange for a tag on to the bill stating that their respective states be exempt from the taxes that apply to everyone else. The republicans are challenging this as unconstitutional (though I do not think it is unconstitutional. It is not fair and shows the corruption of our system, but I do not think they have much of a case here,) and intend to challenge the bill in the Supreme Court on this premise as well as others. (They are going to address each different approach separately instead of presenting them cumulatively. This way, even if they lose they can still delay the bill and stall it further.)

The fact is that none of the legislators have read the bill. They've more or less gotten some cliff notes and then vote in accordance with their party. Those who are a little more free minded are simply bribed. There are enough democrats that the republicans are not needed so they get left out of the bribery and are bitter because of it.

This whole issue demonstrates how jaded our system, president, senate, and house of reps all are.


This is why I am so upset, this not the bill I wanted, not the health-care reform that was needed for the country but is it really that much of surprise that it passed?? People don't see it but i do Obama is just a clone of George Bush, expect with a different political agenda that he wants to shove down peoples throats.
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Posted 3/23/10

CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

I still don't understand it, so does it bring universal health care? I heard the US is going to spend almost one trillion dollars on it, so everyone buys health insurance and the government will pay for everyone?


Well, in the long run it is going to cost significantly more than one trillion, but then the price of any ongoing expense adds up. Right now we do not have the money, so a major part of the bill is about raising the money. We are not expected to see any benefits until at least 2011 and possible longer. In the meantime we are going to start saving. We’ll raise funds through taxation and by shaving off loose ends in the budget. Nobody seems exactly certain how we are going to get the money in its entirety, but we know that taxation and redirecting funds from other areas will play roles.

Will it provide universal healthcare? Yes and no. Yes in that being uninsured will be illegal making health insurance universal among all law abiding citizens. No in that the bill does actually “provide,” that healthcare. Instead it expands already existing programs (like medicare,) and starts placing certain restrictions on the conditions the private healthcare providers can place on their deals. For example, the price of healthcare will be regulated to a certain “affordable,” rate. So the private sector still does the providing, they just don’t have the same power. Which is not really “bad,” per se.

The problem is that there was a lot of politicking and pork-bellied bribery going on. For example, certain democratic senators were ambivalent on the bill. They agreed to bandwagon up with the majority of their party in exchange for a tag on to the bill stating that their respective states be exempt from the taxes that apply to everyone else. The republicans are challenging this as unconstitutional (though I do not think it is unconstitutional. It is not fair and shows the corruption of our system, but I do not think they have much of a case here,) and intend to challenge the bill in the Supreme Court on this premise as well as others. (They are going to address each different approach separately instead of presenting them cumulatively. This way, even if they lose they can still delay the bill and stall it further.)

The fact is that none of the legislators have read the bill. They've more or less gotten some cliff notes and then vote in accordance with their party. Those who are a little more free minded are simply bribed. There are enough democrats that the republicans are not needed so they get left out of the bribery and are bitter because of it.

This whole issue demonstrates how jaded our system, president, senate, and house of reps all are.


This is why I am so upset, this not the bill I wanted, not the health-care reform that was needed for the country but is it really that much of surprise that it passed?? People don't see it but i do Obama is just a clone of George Bush, expect with a different political agenda that he wants to shove down peoples throats.


The thing though is that Bush didn't try anything to this scale, he also had a Democrat Majority congress for much of his presidency. We haven't seen deception at this level before with the blatant special deals and sell out votes. The Obama administration is far worse than the Bush administration. Obama has spent more already that Clinton and Bush combined.
Posted 3/23/10

digs wrote:


CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


SeraphAlford wrote:


Yei wrote:

I still don't understand it, so does it bring universal health care? I heard the US is going to spend almost one trillion dollars on it, so everyone buys health insurance and the government will pay for everyone?


Well, in the long run it is going to cost significantly more than one trillion, but then the price of any ongoing expense adds up. Right now we do not have the money, so a major part of the bill is about raising the money. We are not expected to see any benefits until at least 2011 and possible longer. In the meantime we are going to start saving. We’ll raise funds through taxation and by shaving off loose ends in the budget. Nobody seems exactly certain how we are going to get the money in its entirety, but we know that taxation and redirecting funds from other areas will play roles.

Will it provide universal healthcare? Yes and no. Yes in that being uninsured will be illegal making health insurance universal among all law abiding citizens. No in that the bill does actually “provide,” that healthcare. Instead it expands already existing programs (like medicare,) and starts placing certain restrictions on the conditions the private healthcare providers can place on their deals. For example, the price of healthcare will be regulated to a certain “affordable,” rate. So the private sector still does the providing, they just don’t have the same power. Which is not really “bad,” per se.

The problem is that there was a lot of politicking and pork-bellied bribery going on. For example, certain democratic senators were ambivalent on the bill. They agreed to bandwagon up with the majority of their party in exchange for a tag on to the bill stating that their respective states be exempt from the taxes that apply to everyone else. The republicans are challenging this as unconstitutional (though I do not think it is unconstitutional. It is not fair and shows the corruption of our system, but I do not think they have much of a case here,) and intend to challenge the bill in the Supreme Court on this premise as well as others. (They are going to address each different approach separately instead of presenting them cumulatively. This way, even if they lose they can still delay the bill and stall it further.)

The fact is that none of the legislators have read the bill. They've more or less gotten some cliff notes and then vote in accordance with their party. Those who are a little more free minded are simply bribed. There are enough democrats that the republicans are not needed so they get left out of the bribery and are bitter because of it.

This whole issue demonstrates how jaded our system, president, senate, and house of reps all are.


This is why I am so upset, this not the bill I wanted, not the health-care reform that was needed for the country but is it really that much of surprise that it passed?? People don't see it but i do Obama is just a clone of George Bush, expect with a different political agenda that he wants to shove down peoples throats.


The thing though is that Bush didn't try anything to this scale, he also had a Democrat Majority congress for much of his presidency. We haven't seen deception at this level before with the blatant special deals and sell out votes. The Obama administration is far worse than the Bush administration. Obama has spent more already that Clinton and Bush combined.


I know digs but I was just trying to make a point in saying that politicians will pass anything with out the care of the people. Sigh idn my anxiety is up right now and I got to lay down =-=.
Posted 3/23/10 , edited 3/23/10

Karkarov wrote:


DomFortressReally now? Because I beg to differ, when you know just as well as I do, that you know absolutely nothing about the real content of this health care bill.

When disinformation is an art of war, it makes you wonder the validity of any dispute regarding this bill. For all I can see are individuals panicking at the unknown, and that's somehow beautiful.

In the meantime, I'll do what I've always been doing proactively with my own health.


Very impressive post Dom. It takes alot of skill to exhale that much hot air yet never manage to say anything. You really should seek office you will fit right in.
It's all about keeping an open mind while paying attention to details. Or are you telling me that you have a preexisting condition like your sarcasm, which prevents you from being proactive with your own health? When this individual here doesn't let anything from stopping him with his attitude.

And when the majority of the US citizens have the preexisting condition of them being overweight or obese, but of course what they are all entitling is universal "sick" care, so that they can all continue to entitle their current lifestyle choice.

If you truly meant what you've said for me to be in office, then consider yourself just had a taste of my sledgehammer simple approach to problem solving. And I gotta say, it worked pretty well for myself so far.

Or your could just start listening to someone with relevant intel on the 50+ waves of senior care.
Posted 3/23/10 , edited 3/23/10
I knew Obama would take the US to hell.
Posted 3/23/10

Glock45 wrote:

I knew Obama would take the US to hell.


Actually, I believe it's too late for that.
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