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The April 5th Video
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Posted 4/14/10 , edited 4/14/10

CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


kakashi2 wrote:

wow its almost funny how much every ones comments are biased
Could the fact that US troops open-fired and murdered civilians be a bias opinion?


Well lets look at it logically. And judge this in an open non-biased manner.

First what facts do we have you two?
(help me out with this we are going to get to the bottom of it we need facts first. not sides.)

Example: did solders kill civilians. Yes...No? What happened at that moment...And what evidence do we have for it?
Was there any other factors involved from shooting in the back ground...or violence from ether sides? Other known evidence to bring to light that will aid in the case for ether side?

Based on the materials published by WikiLead here, with the Pentagon publicly admitted that the authenticity of all materials been released being true. Yes, the US military murdered Iraqi journalists and possibly civilians on 2007, and tried to cover up the incident.

Here's the overview as well as the biggest piece of the evidence: a full 38 minutes long video recording from the camera of one of the Apache Gunship that was authorized to fire at 11 Iraqi individuals on that day, without them in any real threat of being attacked by those said individuals.


it's war, we cover our asses to make ourselves look good, nothing new,nothing less. It has been that way for years and will never change. People are to stupid to know other wise and most do not care because we follow anything our government tells us and if we question we are evil and need to be punished or that the sense I am getting.

People have brains and they can make their own choices. I am a ex-solder so don't try playing that game with me. If a order is barbaric then you have all the right in the world to not do it. Those that willingly kill those that have nothing to do with the war get no respect from me as a former solder is concerned. Your orders are not absolute you do not agree with them you do not need to pull the trigger.
Even today after being out drinking all day I can judge that the solders must take responsibility for there actions order or no order. I chose to not fallowing my superiors orders 3 times in my career and do to that, I never had to kill people who had nothing to do with the war. I have had really stupid leaders in charge of my groups before who kill people because of their barbaric religious and racist stupidity.
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Posted 4/14/10
So after reading Digs thread he made about Obama's health care makes me think he is more of an extremist Christian I have ever seen. You can tell how deep he is in his faith in is profile. So the guy gets mad about Obama forcing health care on the American people which I also disagree with but it is helping some Americans afford health insurance. It is just that he completely ignores how Bush forced the Iraq war on the people and lied about it. Also to save face it is now a war to liberate Iraq. Well damn Digs if we are going to do that why dont we liberate communist China next then? You have to stick to your word right Digs? Digs your Christian behind who is not holy at all and your not showing any type of peace in your religion what so ever by the words that comes out of your mouth, would rather support a war in Iraq that has nothing to do with your national security, nothing to do with 9-11, was already in the works by your government but they needed a catalyst such as 9-11 to commence it, killed and maimed American soldiers, displaced thousands of innocent civilians and many dead. You justify this? Can you Christians be more evil? You also say you Christians dont hate other religious groups but in your damn Bible you say we will all go to hell if we dont believe in Jesus and God's son. To me that sounds extreme. Does your God not recognize the different cultures in the world or is it up to you Christians to force and if they dont listen kill them until the convert to your religion in order to be saved?

So choose and stop lieing did you Invade Iraq on a lie on WMD OR to liberate them? And why all of a suddenly now was the time to liberate Iraq? Put your hand on the bible and tell the truth.... Well never mind Christians love to lie and smile in your face and continue their evil crimes.

You nit pick on Obama's healthcare in which he tries to save lives? Now after Obama has become president now your rights are being taken away?
Well excuse me Mr. Holy Christian where were you and your tea partiers protesting about your rights being taken away when the government was allowed and still is today to put Americans in jail without any kind of trail? But I can bet anyone here 1 million dollars that the one thing many Christians agree with Obama is that he is still maintaining the wars. Ask Digs if he agree's with Obama's decision to maintain these wars and he would happily agree.
Hell what other religious group has hundreds of military bases around the world? Well I don't know but I can sure as hell tell you Christians do. The thing is Digs we want you Christians to mind your own business. Stay in your own damn country. Stop bombing other countries, stealing their resources based on lies then installing dictators. Stop making these military companies rich by maintaining this. Then to add insult to injury don't drop your damn bible on those people they don't want to read about that religion if it has them justifying war crimes like you do.
Posted 4/14/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


CecilTheDarkKnight_234 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


kakashi2 wrote:

wow its almost funny how much every ones comments are biased
Could the fact that US troops open-fired and murdered civilians be a bias opinion?


Well lets look at it logically. And judge this in an open non-biased manner.

First what facts do we have you two?
(help me out with this we are going to get to the bottom of it we need facts first. not sides.)

Example: did solders kill civilians. Yes...No? What happened at that moment...And what evidence do we have for it?
Was there any other factors involved from shooting in the back ground...or violence from ether sides? Other known evidence to bring to light that will aid in the case for ether side?

Based on the materials published by WikiLead here, with the Pentagon publicly admitted that the authenticity of all materials been released being true. Yes, the US military murdered Iraqi journalists and possibly civilians on 2007, and tried to cover up the incident.

Here's the overview as well as the biggest piece of the evidence: a full 38 minutes long video recording from the camera of one of the Apache Gunship that was authorized to fire at 11 Iraqi individuals on that day, without them in any real threat of being attacked by those said individuals.


it's war, we cover our asses to make ourselves look good, nothing new,nothing less. It has been that way for years and will never change. People are to stupid to know other wise and most do not care because we follow anything our government tells us and if we question we are evil and need to be punished or that the sense I am getting.

People have brains and they can make their own choices. I am a ex-solder so don't try playing that game with me. If a order is barbaric then you have all the right in the world to not do it. Those that willingly kill those that have nothing to do with the war get no respect from me as a former solder is concerned. Your orders are not absolute you do not agree with them you do not need to pull the trigger.
Even today after being out drinking all day I can judge that the solders must take responsibility for there actions order or no order. I chose to not fallowing my superiors orders 3 times in my career and do to that, I never had to kill people who had nothing to do with the war. I have had really stupid leaders in charge of my groups before who kill people because of their barbaric religious and racist stupidity.


i am talking about the majority of people, people will follow any idiot that tells them what to do and makes them feel safe. Most people can not make their own decision because they are to lazy and have to rely to on others to do so. This goes back to other threads that you have made about this, all it takes is fear mongering and stupidity to sway people to believe anything even when facts are thrown right int he goddamn face, they are just fucking stupid to see it, sigh. sorry for ranting but I am sick of my parents"well my mom", "tea party" prostesitng from fucking and getting good sources of news from idiots like RUSH LIMBAUGH and GLEEN BECK which have no bias what so ever <_<. I am speaking from personal experience when it comes to this but then again I do not watch and news source because ever cable news show is bias and full of shit. Back on topic there are war crimes we committed in ww2, Vietnam, Korea, gulf war and so on, we just cover them up so "we" look good, I do no in any way blame the soldiers at all the are given orders and have to carry them out or well you should know what would happen, hell my father is a veteran from the Vietnam war and he had to see/ do things that he did not want to do. I am done sigh... sorry agian i am just in a pissy mood right now.
Posted 4/14/10

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Posted 4/15/10

digs wrote:

This was a war situation, I never said killing innocents is right, and if that's true these men should be tried with murder. However, everyone fails to see the big picture within the context. This video is clearly cut and paste propaganda against the US. Why not listen to what those in charge have to say about this? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/11/gates-defends-soldiers-iraq-shooting-video-says-footage-lacks-context/ Many Christians support the war because we support defense and national security. Murderers and terrorists should die, they threaten and take innocent lives all day long. It's the right thing to do if you want to save lives. And Christians don't hate Muslims, Jesus never said to hate those who don't believe Him as God's Son.


It is the right thing to do to invade a country, kill it's people the bleeding feck off by mistake, claim national security and smile. Oh yeah, totally, yeah.

If the whole Jesus story wasn't utter bollocks he'd have to be nailed to a pair of twigs another 5-8 times for the sins his self-proclaimed followers committed.
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Posted 4/16/10

It's normal for almost everyone here to oppose the war and condemn the soldier. However, your opinion might changed when you know the situation those soldiers in. After years and years stuck in same place full of stranger who might running to you and explode themselves, it is normal to have abnormal behavior. Remind that US has been involved in various wars that resulting to serious damage on their soldiers, notably in Vietnam when soldiers experienced madness and craziness. The worst part is, when the soldiers came back from Vietnam war, the Americans people feels like forgetting the war and like abandoning the soldiers who have lost incredibly. Those might be the factors why today's US soldier are cautious to the extreme.

Although I could justify the first engagement which targeting people who carrying weapons , I can't say anything to the second engagement which targeting a van which intended to pick the wounded people. They say in nearby area, US infantry soldiers were engaging the militants, anyone can assume the people who's carrying the guns are the militant's reinforcement, so they decided to 'light 'em up' those Iraqis. As I said before, this might due to US soldiers experience from their previous wars to ensure they are safe and absolutely will not going to lose...


Trunks19 wrote:

Digs you talk about propaganda and cut and paste but you link me to Fox News. Are you being serious here? This is a laugh out loud moment are you saying Fox News isnt any kind of propaganda who doesnt do any cut and paste and sound bites? Please man what world are you living in dont be so damn daft. You say Christians support war because of defense what a big ass liar you are.

Your Christian country invaded Iraq who has done nothing to you, and secondly you never even declared war against Iraq instructed in your constitution so dont sit here and lie to me saying you are for defense sir. Defense is when SOMEONE ATTACKS YOU thus you respond Iraq never attacked you. Your just a blood thirsty lieing ass Christian who takes orders from Christians who lie to you about how non white people, third world countries, non christians thinks about you. Thats all you been doing is invading countries and lieing about it. Your religious teachers teach hate this is why you justify killing civilians. If you was such a peaceful Christian you would not justify it at all. Is it only bad when an Arab does it? Completely justifiable when a Christian does it? Please I am sick of you religious people especially Christians who act like they stand for peace but are the main ones dropping bombs on childrens heads. Did Jesus teach you this in your bible? So this is the way Jesus would act? Then shame on him and shame on you.


Religion has nothing to do with this. There are a great number of Christian who oppose the wars as well, so addressing those who support the war as Christian is not appropriate. From begin with, those who started the wars are coming from politicians who always telling people they are devoted religious people, has their own pastor, never miss to attend to the church, etc. The real Christian who are really devoted would follow the path of Jesus and its teaching. Clearly, this is not the case for Americans who supporting the war.

Just because Christian are majority religion in America, doesn't meant all Christian are willing to fight in war and killing people. They are just politicians hiding beneath the mask of true Christian and so other who forgetting the teaching of Jesus. So it's not Christian's fault, the objective clearly is not for religion but politically gain.

You might want to watch this video, coming from person who really oppose Americans leader.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrWguVsEih0




Posted 4/16/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


It's normal for almost everyone here to oppose the war and condemn the soldier. However, your opinion might changed when you know the situation those soldiers in. After years and years stuck in same place full of stranger who might running to you and explode themselves, it is normal to have abnormal behavior. Remind that US has been involved in various wars that resulting to serious damage on their soldiers, notably in Vietnam when soldiers experienced madness and craziness. The worst part is, when the soldiers came back from Vietnam war, the Americans people feels like forgetting the war and like abandoning the soldiers who have lost incredibly. Those might be the factors why today's US soldier are cautious to the extreme.

Although I could justify the first engagement which targeting people who carrying weapons , I can't say anything to the second engagement which targeting a van which intended to pick the wounded people. They say in nearby area, US infantry soldiers were engaging the militants, anyone can assume the people who's carrying the guns are the militant's reinforcement, so they decided to 'light 'em up' those Iraqis. As I said before, this might due to US soldiers experience from their previous wars to ensure they are safe and absolutely will not going to lose...



Religion has nothing to do with this. There are a great number of Christian who oppose the wars as well, so addressing those who support the war as Christian is not appropriate. From begin with, those who started the wars are coming from politicians who always telling people they are devoted religious people, has their own pastor, never miss to attend to the church, etc. The real Christian who are really devoted would follow the path of Jesus and its teaching. Clearly, this is not the case for Americans who supporting the war.

Just because Christian are majority religion in America, doesn't meant all Christian are willing to fight in war and killing people. They are just politicians hiding beneath the mask of true Christian and so other who forgetting the teaching of Jesus. So it's not Christian's fault, the objective clearly is not for religion but politically gain.

You might want to watch this video, coming from person who really oppose Americans leader.
And don't you find it strange that normal people will become suicide bombers? When the only thing that's supposedly keeping them sane is their collective moral values and ethic standards, which just happens to be their Islamic faith being the local legislation.

My own two hands can be more lethal than yours, while I'm disciplined in several hand-to-hand combat techniques known to men on how to stop someone dead on his track. Does that automatically justifies me as carrying deadly weapons? When I can engage other productive activities by me applying my hands on something else. Say martial arts trainings, perhaps?

Seriously, at least refer yourself to the US military's Rules of Engagement to deduct just what went wrong with the incident. When obviously no a single individuals in the video was in a hurry to do anything, right before the Apache Gunship opened fire on them.

And why should I listen to a bias politician's gloating? When he's got nothing good to say about other nations except his own, while his whole nation is one big homogenizing religious state. Thus nobody can tell who's real from those that are fake.
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Posted 4/16/10

DomFortress wrote:

And don't you find it strange that normal people will become suicide bombers? When the only thing that's supposedly keeping them sane is their collective moral values and ethic standards, which just happens to be their Islamic faith being the local legislation.

My own two hands can be more lethal than yours, while I'm disciplined in several hand-to-hand combat techniques known to men on how to stop someone dead on his track. Does that automatically justifies me as carrying deadly weapons? When I can engage other productive activities by me applying my hands on something else. Say martial arts trainings, perhaps?

Seriously, at least refer yourself to the US military's Rules of Engagement to deduct just what went wrong with the incident. When obviously no a single individuals in the video was in a hurry to do anything, right before the Apache Gunship opened fire on them.

And why should I listen to a bias politician's gloating? When he's got nothing good to say about other nations except his own, while his whole nation is one big homogenizing religious state. Thus nobody can tell who's real from those that are fake.


We've talked about it before here. You can see why the suicide bombers are wrong and not related to Islamic faith.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-550534/inside-the-mind-of-a-martyr/

The difference is you are not in situation when your life in danger, then you can use your arms to cook or to type. But would you do that when your life is being targeted in war situation? You would use your arms to protect yourself even it'll kill others.

Yes, there is no evidence that those Iraqis men who carrying their guns are involved in the combat against US soldiers on ground. That's when they're at fault when they know the Iraqis often carrying their guns around to protect their border, but there's no evidence that they're not going to attack the Us soldiers either, right? It just possibility, I'd like to put the blames on soldier's mentality in this aspect.

He's not really bias, he favoring Jews to live in Iran. In fact, Jews has lived hundred of years in Iran and it'll going like that even the state are opposing Israel. Iran is able to differentiate the people who are religious or those who are committing crimes behind religion. You might want to watch the video first before comment, without bias in your view.
Posted 4/16/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

And don't you find it strange that normal people will become suicide bombers? When the only thing that's supposedly keeping them sane is their collective moral values and ethic standards, which just happens to be their Islamic faith being the local legislation.

My own two hands can be more lethal than yours, while I'm disciplined in several hand-to-hand combat techniques known to men on how to stop someone dead on his track. Does that automatically justifies me as carrying deadly weapons? When I can engage other productive activities by me applying my hands on something else. Say martial arts trainings, perhaps?

Seriously, at least refer yourself to the US military's Rules of Engagement to deduct just what went wrong with the incident. When obviously no a single individuals in the video was in a hurry to do anything, right before the Apache Gunship opened fire on them.

And why should I listen to a bias politician's gloating? When he's got nothing good to say about other nations except his own, while his whole nation is one big homogenizing religious state. Thus nobody can tell who's real from those that are fake.


We've talked about it before here. You can see why the suicide bombers are wrong and not related to Islamic faith.

The difference is you are not in situation when your life in danger, then you can use your arms to cook or to type. But would you do that when your life is being targeted in war situation? You would use your arms to protect yourself even it'll kill others.

Yes, there is no evidence that those Iraqis men who carrying their guns are involved in the combat against US soldiers on ground. That's when they're at fault when they know the Iraqis often carrying their guns around to protect their border, but there's no evidence that they're not going to attack the Us soldiers either, right? It just possibility, I'd like to put the blames on soldier's mentality in this aspect.

He's not really bias, he favoring Jews to live in Iran. In fact, Jews has lived hundred of years in Iran and it'll going like that even the state are opposing Israel. Iran is able to differentiate the people who are religious or those who are committing crimes behind religion. You might want to watch the video first before comment, without bias in your view.
Could you be less vague as in what specific mentality that differentiate a martyr -somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religious- from a suicide bomber; somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religiously believing that life after death is better than suffering in purgatory while still alive.

Don't you know that in self-defense, it's either the use of nonlethal force, or run like your life depends on it(citation)? However that's obviously not what this child suicide bomber was thinking, when he was cornered by whoever that strapped the bomb vest onto him.

And what the heck does his policy with his citizens has anything to do with the fact that he's got nothing good to say about any nations other than his own? Doesn't that just goes to show he's bias towards his own people?
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Posted 4/17/10

DomFortress wrote:

Could you be less vague as in what specific mentality that differentiate a martyr -somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religious- from a suicide bomber; somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religiously believing that life after death is better than suffering in purgatory while still alive.

Don't you know that in self-defense, it's either the use of nonlethal force, or run like your life depends on it(citation)? However that's obviously not what this child suicide bomber was thinking, when he was cornered by whoever that strapped the bomb vest onto him.

And what the heck does his policy with his citizens has anything to do with the fact that he's got nothing good to say about any nations other than his own? Doesn't that just goes to show he's bias towards his own people?


The bad things about suicide bombers are the way they hurting themselves and killing innocent people surround them. Therefore no religious justification on it. Someone who done it would wish they'd never do it, because the hellfire waiting upon them for their sin.

I think we're talking about the soldier, not the kid. True, the US soldiers in Crazy-horse(in helicopter) were might not be in danger, but their comrades were. At least, they're very cautious about it.

He is valued people from other nations as well, such as American and Jews people, during his interview, but not the government that still killing people in poor countries.
Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Could you be less vague as in what specific mentality that differentiate a martyr -somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religious- from a suicide bomber; somebody who suffers persecution and death for refusing to renounce a belief, usually religiously believing that life after death is better than suffering in purgatory while still alive.

Don't you know that in self-defense, it's either the use of nonlethal force, or run like your life depends on it(citation)? However that's obviously not what this child suicide bomber was thinking, when he was cornered by whoever that strapped the bomb vest onto him.

And what the heck does his policy with his citizens has anything to do with the fact that he's got nothing good to say about any nations other than his own? Doesn't that just goes to show he's bias towards his own people?


The bad things about suicide bombers are the way they hurting themselves and killing innocent people surround them. Therefore no religious justification on it. Someone who done it would wish they'd never do it, because the hellfire waiting upon them for their sin.

I think we're talking about the soldier, not the kid. True, the US soldiers in Crazy-horse(in helicopter) were might not be in danger, but their comrades were. At least, they're very cautious about it.

He is valued people from other nations as well, such as American and Jews people, during his interview, but not the government that still killing people in poor countries.
We don't know that for sure, therefore it's invalid and thereby irrelevant.

However, both the soldiers as well as the child suicide bomber were indoctrinated by a culture of hatred.

"Hatred leads to bias opinions, or do you think that compassion and understanding can result from hate?" -by me.

And if he devalues killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government in general, then why does his administration legalized this?
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Posted 4/17/10

DomFortress wrote:

We don't know that for sure, therefore it's invalid and thereby irrelevant.

However, both the soldiers as well as the child suicide bomber were indoctrinated by a culture of hatred.

"Hatred leads to bias opinions, or do you think that compassion and understanding can result from hate?" -by me.

And if he devalues killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government in general, then why does his administration legalized this?


It's stated in Qur'an, so the people who committed suicide bombs were not following it. If they were, they won't do it.

Who's do you think the one who started this culture of hatred by invading them?

It was in pretty chaotic situation, it might be accident. It's not like Chinese or Myanmar government who merely shot the monks.
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Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:
We've talked about it before here. You can see why the suicide bombers are wrong and not related to Islamic faith.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-550534/inside-the-mind-of-a-martyr/


That is a no true Scotsman right there. Suicide bombers done whatever it is that they do with the approval of Islam, whether mainstream Islam likes it or not. They are associated with Islam from a secular perspective and we are using a secular definition of Islam here. Your definition is anomalous.

For no true Scotsman see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

We don't know that for sure, therefore it's invalid and thereby irrelevant.

However, both the soldiers as well as the child suicide bomber were indoctrinated by a culture of hatred.

"Hatred leads to bias opinions, or do you think that compassion and understanding can result from hate?" -by me.

And if he devalues killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government in general, then why does his administration legalized this?


It's stated in Qur'an, so the people who committed suicide bombs were not following it. If they were, they won't do it.

Who's do you think the one who started this culture of hatred by invading them?

It was in pretty chaotic situation, it might be accident. It's not like Chinese or Myanmar government who merely shot the monks.
It's not scientific, and even then scientists won't become suicidal for obvious reason.

And just who's mainstream culture that teaches honor killing within family members? Regardless of them being invaded or not.

And Iranian police officers running people over at high speed with police vehicles, and them dragging individuals who were fleeting out of hiding, are not the same as shooting unarmed citizens, thereby not constitute as "killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government". How?
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Posted 4/17/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:
We've talked about it before here. You can see why the suicide bombers are wrong and not related to Islamic faith.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-550534/inside-the-mind-of-a-martyr/


That is a no true Scotsman right there. Suicide bombers done whatever it is that they do with the approval of Islam, whether mainstream Islam likes it or not. They are associated with Islam from a secular perspective and we are using a secular definition of Islam here. Your definition is anomalous.

For no true Scotsman see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


It's stated in the holy book and the teaching as well. Normally, those who did such thing are either in oppressed situation which forced them to do or following the wrong teaching by using religion as its cover. So if an Catholic priest committed sexual abuse on children, it's being approved as Catholic acts? Not to mention the Pope were suspected to cover such crime, so the approval is clear from Pope itself. Of course not.



DomFortress wrote:

It's not scientific, and even then scientists won't become suicidal for obvious reason.

And just who's mainstream culture that teaches honor killing within family members? Regardless of them being invaded or not.

And Iranian police officers running people over at high speed with police vehicles, and them dragging individuals who were fleeting out of hiding, are not the same as shooting unarmed citizens, thereby not constitute as "killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government". How?


The authenticity doesn't matter when it comes to forbid people to do it. So those suicide bombers did not read their guidance and acting on their own.

This is not about war anymore, it's different topic.

It's not their original intention to do it. It was started because the protesters were not under control, starting riot in the city. To control them, it's government's duty. If they were peaceful protesters, sure it won't be like that.
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