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The April 5th Video
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Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DerfelCadarn wrote:


Ryutai-Desk wrote:
We've talked about it before here. You can see why the suicide bombers are wrong and not related to Islamic faith.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-550534/inside-the-mind-of-a-martyr/


That is a no true Scotsman right there. Suicide bombers done whatever it is that they do with the approval of Islam, whether mainstream Islam likes it or not. They are associated with Islam from a secular perspective and we are using a secular definition of Islam here. Your definition is anomalous.

For no true Scotsman see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


It's stated in the holy book and the teaching as well. Normally, those who did such thing are either in oppressed situation which forced them to do or following the wrong teaching by using religion as its cover. So if an Catholic priest committed sexual abuse on children, it's being approved as Catholic acts? Not to mention the Pope were suspected to cover such crime, so the approval is clear from Pope itself. Of course not.


Honestly now, who cares about the holy book and teachings? I am not a Muslim, or a Christian for that matter, hell, I'm probably further away from religion than most militant atheists. Are you expecting me to use the definitions provided by ridiculous and laughable religions grounded in, well, bugger all? If Catholic priests are committing crime left and right, that's exactly what I will consider it to be, you can be sure that I won't be babbling about holy books and teachings and the like. If a substantial number of Catholic priests go on to molest kids then that is a fact, even if their faith does not, officially, approve of it. You have most probably not read what no true Scotsman is. Either that or you didn't understand it.

To reinforce it, let me restate in a different wording: in a discussion secular in nature, such as this, holy books and teachings don't count for shat.
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Posted 4/17/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

Honestly now, who cares about the holy book and teachings? I am not a Muslim, or a Christian for that matter, hell, I'm probably further away from religion than most militant atheists. Are you expecting me to use the definitions provided by ridiculous and laughable religions grounded in, well, bugger all? If Catholic priests are committing crime left and right, that's exactly what I will consider it to be, you can be sure that I won't be babbling about holy books and teachings and the like. If a substantial number of Catholic priests go on to molest kids then that is a fact, even if their faith does not, officially, approve of it. You have most probably not read what no true Scotsman is. Either that or you didn't understand it.

To reinforce it, let me restate in a different wording: in a discussion secular in nature, such as this, holy books and teachings don't count for shat.


That's when you cannot claim those were the teaching of religion when you don't understand it clearly what the teaching about. That's called prejudice and biased. If American's soldier committing war crime in various places of the world, would we judge all Americans as cruelest nation on the world? No we won't. If certain people that belongs to different groups of races, religion, or nation did terrible things to you, would you blame all the faults to their group? No, you won't. And this is different topic.
Posted 4/17/10 , edited 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

It's not scientific, and even then scientists won't become suicidal for obvious reason.

And just who's mainstream culture that teaches honor killing within family members? Regardless of them being invaded or not.

And Iranian police officers running people over at high speed with police vehicles, and them dragging individuals who were fleeting out of hiding, are not the same as shooting unarmed citizens, thereby not constitute as "killing and suffering of people at the hands of the government". How?


The authenticity doesn't matter when it comes to forbid people to do it. So those suicide bombers did not read their guidance and acting on their own.

This is not about war anymore, it's different topic.

It's not their original intention to do it. It was started because the protesters were not under control, starting riot in the city. To control them, it's government's duty. If they were peaceful protesters, sure it won't be like that.
At this point I refuse to debate with someone who lacks compassion and judgment due to her religious faith.
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Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DerfelCadarn wrote:

Honestly now, who cares about the holy book and teachings? I am not a Muslim, or a Christian for that matter, hell, I'm probably further away from religion than most militant atheists. Are you expecting me to use the definitions provided by ridiculous and laughable religions grounded in, well, bugger all? If Catholic priests are committing crime left and right, that's exactly what I will consider it to be, you can be sure that I won't be babbling about holy books and teachings and the like. If a substantial number of Catholic priests go on to molest kids then that is a fact, even if their faith does not, officially, approve of it. You have most probably not read what no true Scotsman is. Either that or you didn't understand it.

To reinforce it, let me restate in a different wording: in a discussion secular in nature, such as this, holy books and teachings don't count for shat.


That's when you cannot claim those were the teaching of religion when you don't understand it clearly what the teaching about. That's called prejudice and biased. If American's soldier committing war crime in various places of the world, would we judge all Americans as cruelest nation on the world? No we won't. If certain people that belongs to different groups of races, religion, or nation did terrible things to you, would you blame all the faults to their group? No, you won't. And this is different topic.


I am not concerned with what any specific religion is teaching. I am concerned with what happens in reality, not on the pages of holy books. Like DomFortress before me, I need to point out that you are lacking knowledge of argumentative techniques and rules. You have failed, again, to read what no true Scotsman is and mend or withdraw your argument in light of it.
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Posted 4/17/10 , edited 4/17/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

I am not concerned with what any specific religion is teaching. I am concerned with what happens in reality, not on the pages of holy books. Like DomFortress before me, I need to point out that you are lacking knowledge of argumentative techniques and rules. You have failed, again, to read what no true Scotsman is and mend or withdraw your argument in light of it.


We were talking about were the US soldiers actions can be justified regarding their situation in Iraq and their attacks. I don't know if you really intend to talk on the topic. I apologize in case you feel offended by my posts, but I really want to talk about the topic.
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Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DerfelCadarn wrote:

I am not concerned with what any specific religion is teaching. I am concerned with what happens in reality, not on the pages of holy books. Like DomFortress before me, I need to point out that you are lacking knowledge of argumentative techniques and rules. You have failed, again, to read what no true Scotsman is and mend or withdraw your argument in light of it.


We were talking about were the US soldiers actions can be justified regarding their situation in Iraq and their attacks. I don't know if you really intend to talk on the topic. So far, you haven't.


While you are right that I have not been on topic, you are nevertheless trying to sidestep my argument.
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Posted 4/17/10

DomFortress wrote:

At this point I refuse to debate with someone who lacks compassion and judgment due to her religious faith.


At this point, I'd like to discuss various things to those who are really eager and passionate to seek the knowledge upon the matters due their curiosity and willingness.
Posted 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

At this point I refuse to debate with someone who lacks compassion and judgment due to her religious faith.


At this point, I'd like to discuss various things to those who are really eager and passionate to seek the knowledge upon the matters due their curiosity and willingness.
By completely abolish compassion and judgment in the name of God as your Islamic value and standard? When the fact is you're just institutionalizing a methodology that purges the will of any and all individuals.
Posted 4/17/10 , edited 4/17/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

By completely abolish compassion and judgment in the name of God as your Islamic value and standard? When the fact is you're just institutionalizing a methodology that purges the will of any and all individuals.


That has nothing to do with discussion. Don't bring your hate to me at this forum. let's talk about the topic.
I beg to differ, when that's exactly how both your radical Islamic, and ironically extreme Christian faiths purge individual will and called it "spiritual purification".

Therefore due to your own religious practice, you have no individual will nor expression other than what your holy book says. So unless there's a relevant information regarding this specific incident from your book, you have nothing more to say for yourself. Unless you're willing to risk yourself to do something that's not commanded by your God.
Posted 4/17/10
No, not again, this will not become another religious argument! Either stay on topic or the thread will be closed.
Yei
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Apparently everyone that was killed was a civilian. Four civilians were showing 2 Reuters journalists around the area, the camera one of them was holding was thought to be a rocket launcher and they attacked them. One guy comes to help, and has two kids in the van. They attack the van and guy trying to help (which is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions), and miraculously don't kill the children. The children are then refused US medical help and instead are handed over to Iraqi police, guaranteeing worse and delayed medical care.

Pretty disgusting, especially with the comments and attitudes of the murderers here. But again, it's not surprising or anything new in US war policy.
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Posted 5/31/10 , edited 5/31/10

Trunks19 wrote:


digs wrote:


Trunks19 wrote:

I am still waiting on DIgs the so called Christian who is quick to teach everyone the wonders about Christianity but yet supports every eltist, imperialist thing the USA does. If he can just justify this in the bible that it is no problem to kill innocent civilians, occupy countries and install dictators who are cruel to their civilians but serve the interests of the USA is something God would teach in the bible. Many Christian support this and you can hear them preach it on your right wing radio and TV stations. Makes them look like blood thirsty hypocrites and no different from the muslims they hate.


Elitist imperialist thing? Has any Middle Eastern territory been annexed into the US? No. Has any regimes and dictators who threaten US and international security been removed? Yes. This was a war situation, I never said killing innocents is right, and if that's true these men should be tried with murder. However, everyone fails to see the big picture within the context. This video is clearly cut and paste propaganda against the US. Why not listen to what those in charge have to say about this? http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/11/gates-defends-soldiers-iraq-shooting-video-says-footage-lacks-context/ Many Christians support the war because we support defense and national security. Murderers and terrorists should die, they threaten and take innocent lives all day long. It's the right thing to do if you want to save lives. And Christians don't hate Muslims, Jesus never said to hate those who don't believe Him as God's Son.


Digs you talk about propaganda and cut and paste but you link me to Fox News. Are you being serious here? This is a laugh out loud moment are you saying Fox News isnt any kind of propaganda who doesnt do any cut and paste and sound bites? Please man what world are you living in dont be so damn daft. You say Christians support war because of defense what a big ass liar you are.

Your Christian country invaded Iraqwho has done nothing to you, and secondly you never even declared war against Iraq instructed in your constitution so dont sit here and lie to me saying you are for defense sir. Defense is when SOMEONE ATTACKS YOU thus you respond Iraq never attacked you. Your just a blood thirsty lieing ass Christian who takes orders from Christians who lie to you about how non white people, third world countries, non christians thinks about you. Thats all you been doing is invading countries and lieing about it. Your religious teachers teach hate this is why you justify killing civilians. If you was such a peaceful Christian you would not justify it at all. Is it only bad when an Arab does it? Completely justifiable when a Christian does it? Please I am sick of you religious people especially Christians who act like they stand for peace but are the main ones dropping bombs on childrens heads. Did Jesus teach you this in your bible? So this is the way Jesus would act? Then shame on him and shame on you.


I know i'm kinda late I just wanted to say something Yes true that we weren't attacked by Iraq BUT what were attacking is not Iraq them selves but the terriost. This is the reason why our troops are stationed in Afghan too. Christanity has nothing to do with this. America is a mixed culture and it wouldn't be a free country if our beliefs were chosen to be christanity. Thus making that not only are christans are attacking in Iraq etc and also other different religous beliefs. Everything has a meaning, Alot of troops in the military are all for education and service but not for religional beliefs. No country is innocent. As long you pay the tax, you support you're government and thus helping it. As long as you fight back or put a lil resistance, you're not innocent.
Yeah we're attacking but what US civilians have to do is pay tax just to rebuild broken terrortory in Iraq etc. We also pay for medicines, new roads, candies for the kids, and many more. Who does that work repairing the broken roads, giving candies, giving medical treament and much more? Us Soldiers do. War always involve Civilian cassulties, it's nothing new.
Shoot first, ask questions later If we never shot first, we would have lost many of our troops. It's not like Talibans/terriost have
specific clothes/battledress indicating what side they are from so we tend to mistakenly kill civilians.
I think that this incident was an accident because they mistakenly thought that was a weapon but with the audio, I don't know.
All I can think of right now :\
Yei
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Posted 5/31/10

DabSiabPeb wrote:

I know i'm kinda late I just wanted to say something Yes true that we weren't attacked by Iraq BUT what were attacking is not Iraq them selves but the terriost. This is the reason why our troops are stationed in Afghan too. Christanity has nothing to do with this. America is a mixed culture and it wouldn't be a free country if our beliefs were chosen to be christanity. Thus making that not only are christans are attacking in Iraq etc and also other different religous beliefs. Everything has a meaning, Alot of troops in the military are all for education and service but not for religional beliefs. No country is innocent. As long you pay the tax, you support you're government and thus helping it. As long as you fight back or put a lil resistance, you're not innocent.
Yeah we're attacking but what US civilians have to do is pay tax just to rebuild broken terrortory in Iraq etc. We also pay for medicines, new roads, candies for the kids, and many more. Who does that work repairing the broken roads, giving candies, giving medical treament and much more? Us Soldiers do. War always involve Civilian cassulties, it's nothing new.
Shoot first, ask questions later If we never shot first, we would have lost many of our troops. It's not like Talibans/terriost have
specific clothes/battledress indicating what side they are from so we tend to mistakenly kill civilians.
I think that this incident was an accident because they mistakenly thought that was a weapon but with the audio, I don't know.
All I can think of right now :\


Yes you are attacking Iraq. You deliberately murdered thousands for no reason in the initial bombing of Baghdad and occupation. And you still are deliberately murdered countless Iraqis. Christianity disapproves of the mass murder of thousands of people, I assume. But you don't need Christianity to have basic morals. America has committed huge amounts of war crimes and various crimes against humanity in Iraq; it is an outlaw state that doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions, The Charter of Human Rights, or any form of international law. It's an illegal occupation, it's an illegal war. And the Americans are the aggressors, and the terrorists massacring, torturing and terrorizing innocent Iraqis. Iraqis don't want you there, they want you to leave immediately, but do you care what they think? Does their opinion matter?

There's absolutely no excuse for the US's crimes against Iraq. You should actually be aware of what you're country is doing in Iraq before making any ignorant judgments. There's a wonderful organization known as Iraqi Veterans Against the War, where disgusted Iraqi soldiers explain how they are regularly ordered and encouraged to kill innocent people, and how there's no human rights policy whatsoever; it's like in Vietnam, eventually the Iraqis aren't even considered human beings.
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Posted 5/31/10

Yei wrote:


DabSiabPeb wrote:

I know i'm kinda late I just wanted to say something Yes true that we weren't attacked by Iraq BUT what were attacking is not Iraq them selves but the terriost. This is the reason why our troops are stationed in Afghan too. Christanity has nothing to do with this. America is a mixed culture and it wouldn't be a free country if our beliefs were chosen to be christanity. Thus making that not only are christans are attacking in Iraq etc and also other different religous beliefs. Everything has a meaning, Alot of troops in the military are all for education and service but not for religional beliefs. No country is innocent. As long you pay the tax, you support you're government and thus helping it. As long as you fight back or put a lil resistance, you're not innocent.
Yeah we're attacking but what US civilians have to do is pay tax just to rebuild broken terrortory in Iraq etc. We also pay for medicines, new roads, candies for the kids, and many more. Who does that work repairing the broken roads, giving candies, giving medical treament and much more? Us Soldiers do. War always involve Civilian cassulties, it's nothing new.
Shoot first, ask questions later If we never shot first, we would have lost many of our troops. It's not like Talibans/terriost have
specific clothes/battledress indicating what side they are from so we tend to mistakenly kill civilians.
I think that this incident was an accident because they mistakenly thought that was a weapon but with the audio, I don't know.
All I can think of right now :\


Yes you are attacking Iraq. You deliberately murdered thousands for no reason in the initial bombing of Baghdad and occupation. And you still are deliberately murdered countless Iraqis. Christianity disapproves of the mass murder of thousands of people, I assume. But you don't need Christianity to have basic morals. America has committed huge amounts of war crimes and various crimes against humanity in Iraq; it is an outlaw state that doesn't follow the Geneva Conventions, The Charter of Human Rights, or any form of international law. It's an illegal occupation, it's an illegal war. And the Americans are the aggressors, and the terrorists massacring, torturing and terrorizing innocent Iraqis. Iraqis don't want you there, they want you to leave immediately, but do you care what they think? Does their opinion matter?

There's absolutely no excuse for the US's crimes against Iraq. You should actually be aware of what you're country is doing in Iraq before making any ignorant judgments. There's a wonderful organization known as Iraqi Veterans Against the War, where disgusted Iraqi soldiers explain how they are regularly ordered and encouraged to kill innocent people, and how there's no human rights policy whatsoever; it's like in Vietnam, eventually the Iraqis aren't even considered human beings.


In the world, there are friendly fire, this is no video game so there is accident were we mistakenly shoot our allies. We aren't attacking the Iraqi government (involving soldiers of Iraq) on purpose, so thus making us not attacking Iraq but what we're trying to do is eradicate Talibans. Yes i'm aware that many civilians are dying in Iraq and many other parts in the world but how are we suppose to know in the world, exactly which civilians are Taliban. If no one reacts to this then who will?
From reading what you're typing, i'm translating that you would like us to wait and be obliterated.
Those veterans are against the war. anyone who is against of or in favor of the war can say anything just like media.
From your statement, you claim that all Iraqi's want us out but who let's us in? Iraqi's. They tell us thier problems and we try to cooperate. We can't always guarantee protection when we have alot of people to protect and objectives to achieve.
Yei
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Posted 5/31/10

DabSiabPeb wrote:
In the world, there are friendly fire, this is no video game so there is accident were we mistakenly shoot our allies. We aren't attacking the Iraqi government (involving soldiers of Iraq) on purpose, so thus making us not attacking Iraq but what we're trying to do is eradicate Talibans. Yes i'm aware that many civilians are dying in Iraq and many other parts in the world but how are we suppose to know in the world, exactly which civilians are Taliban. If no one reacts to this then who will?
From reading what you're typing, i'm translating that you would like us to wait and be obliterated.
Those veterans are against the war. anyone who is against of or in favor of the war can say anything just like media.
From your statement, you claim that all Iraqi's want us out but who let's us in? Iraqi's. They tell us thier problems and we try to cooperate. We can't always guarantee protection when we have alot of people to protect and objectives to achieve.


Where are you getting this information on the war from? The initial bombing of Iraq was an outright war crime, the US carpet bombed the entire city and massacred thousands of people. That was deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure, and therefore the deliberate mass murder of innocent people. This is assuming the US has targeting technology that actually works. From then on, the US invaded and the war crimes continued. The people you ask when you want to know about war policy, is the soldiers in the war and civilians. What they're ordered to do, what they have seen what they have done themselves, and the experiences of the civilians. And the soldiers and civilians illustrate policies similar to that in Vietnam; they murder innocent people, constant terrorism, no concern for any human rights or international law. These are the facts of the war, it's a crime against humanity, at least one hundred thousands Iraqis have been murdered so far. If you have any respect for international law, such as the Geneva Conventions, or Charter of Human Rights, you'd be disgusted with the war. Or if you're just a moral human being. But again, that's if you actually know what's happening in the war.

btw, the Taliban are in Afghanistan, not Iraq....

Wait and be obliterated? What are you talking about?

No, the Iraqis didn't let you in, you bombed, invaded and occupied their country. Then you began to massacre, torture and terrorize them, and they wanted you to leave immediately. The huge majority of Iraqis now all want you out. Does their opinion matter? No, terrorists states don't try to help or liberate people, so they couldn't care less.
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