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Should crunchyroll acquire Bleach?
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34 / M / Huntsville
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Posted 5/30/10
What I do not understand is why NO ONE is pointing out the ONLY reason they even know of...or watch Bleach is because of DB.

The only reason why I know of Bleach, and watch Bleach, and have purchased the seasons sets as they are being released is because of none other than DB.

I find it a little insulting to say DB doesn't support Anime. Because of DB...I purchase Bleach DVDs.
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32 / M / Portland
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Posted 5/30/10
mordaane, I for one started watching Bleach YEARS before DB even started subbing it. And I don't mind DB's subs (I think some of their policies are lazy, and some of their translations hackish though) but CR needs to bring Bleach. I'm a paying member, and I *HATE* subtitled anime, it's annoying. Having a place to watch Bleach legally with softsubs is great because with work, practica, university and volunteering I don't have time to stay up till 2am just to watch the show on keyholetv.

Let DB move on to something else, it's clear from how they treat Bleach they want to drop it.

P.S. Can we get some 名探偵コナン in here?
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Posted 5/31/10
I can tell you why crunchycrap wants to c*ck block DB!! Because they think they can steal DBs fans and force them to pay for an INFERIOR product. I post the link to prevent crunchycrap from stealing Bleach and turning it into an animated abortion. I seriously hope crunchycrap doesnt get Bleach!! I love the show and want to continue watching it and I will have to stop if they steal it!!
Posted 5/31/10 , edited 5/31/10

shujinkou wrote:

(1) I for one started watching Bleach YEARS before DB even started subbing it.

(2) I don't mind DB's subs

(3) I *HATE* subtitled anime, it's annoying.

(4) Having a place to watch Bleach legally with softsubs is great

(5) I don't have time to stay up till 2am just to watch the show on keyholetv.


This post made me chuckle, oxymoron heaven

QUESTIONS !!

(1) Are you japanese, or understand the japanese language then, because the order goes Japanese TV > Fansub > Legit Eng Dub DVD... i'm not japanese, and dont know the language, hence the need for subs, which is kinda the point. Why would you watch it with no subs and japanese audio ?

(2) + (3) + (4) Whut ??

(5) yeah, thats why you download it from DB the next day or whenever...



PS: the bit about DB moving onto something else.. WTF, after supporting it for over 200 eps ? A better question (which also supports the previous posts point) is why don't CR pick something else they can start with and carry through that others arent working on ? After all, look how angry ya'll got when horrible subs started working on and releasing free what subscribers to CR pay to watch. That's gotta burn ! .. well, CR taking Bleach, feels the same to DB supporters.

Food for thought there I think.
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Posted 5/31/10 , edited 5/31/10

MatsumotosBra wrote:
Food for thought here I think


MatumotosBra:

1) I am not Japanese, but I speak the language. I started watching Bleach using Lunar's subs nearly 6 years (5.5) ago now (Until it was dropped because it was licensed by Viz)

2) If I have to watch Bleach with subtitles (IE, I missed the live broadcast and am having a hard time getting a torrent of a raw) DB's are tolerable and generally where I'll go (because they are the only guys left for the most part)

3) As a speaker of Japanese, having English subtitles can be rather annoying, especially when the subber doesn't have an adequate translation, or when they translate it for the lowest common denominator to understand.

4) I turn off softsubs, I can't turn off hardsubs (That always grab my eye after years of watching subtitled anime prior to learning the language).

5) DB's files have subtitles (as well they should because they are subbing), so I don't like to use them because I don't need them.

DB has no claim to Bleach other than they've been subbing for a long time, and started when no one had the balls to continue it after Viz picked up the license. If I can *legally* watch Bleach, no subs, no dubs for a small monthly fee of 5 dollars, which I am already paying for other shows why *wouldn't* I not want to have it.

Look at it like this, DB is being a little bitch, they *STARTED* subbing Bleach *AFTER* it was being licensed in the US by a major company (one much larger than CR), they certainly can continue to do their own subs now. Instead they are going to complain because having another source is going to take from their fame and viewership. What they SHOULD do is do the best damn subs they can and compete with CR for viewers by supplying a better way, but instead they are just going to have a fit, put a message up on their board so a lot of people that don't understand the situation well but like Bleach come over here and post garbage on CRs forums, and give up if they have to share the right (which they don't even have) to sub.

As to why doesn't CR put their efforts in something other than Bleach? Bleach is probably the best way for CR to expand viewership and premium membership (which is so cheap I don't know why ANYONE would complain). I would love to see them bring over ドラえもん(Doraemon) 名探偵コナン(Detective Conan) 鋼の錬金術師(Fullmetal Alchemist), but let's face it, Bleach is probably their best choice at the moment.

So my question to you is, why would DB drop Bleach if CR picks it up? I read their press-release, and they didn't say.
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Posted 5/31/10
I can honestly say, as a fellow Japanese speaker, that DB does a terrific job subbing, and crunchycrap ruins anything it steals,eerr touches. Stealing Bleach and putting it under the guise of legalizing it, to expand their profits is detestable, and will hopefully HURT their viewership more than anything. I honestly don't know of any DB fans that will pay crunchycrap for an inferior product. It isn't illegal to record a current show. As I have said before, if that was the case a DVR would be illegal, and all the companies distributing them would be prosecuted. Now, mind you MOST DVR products are distributed by the cable/satellite companies themselves. Again, they wouldn't do it if it was illegal. The reason DB would drop Bleach after crunchycrap steals it, is because, like any other company who feels their profit isn't as large as they would like it to be, they will send cease and desist letters, or sue claiming they need to recoup their lost profits.
And it's not that people have the wrong idea, it's that people have the right idea and see crunchycrap for what it really is. However, since you are more than likely a troller hired by crunchycrap, you can't admit that, and we understand that and accept that. Their membership fee is thousands of times more than what their service is worth, even if the fee is $7, it's still WAY MORE than the sub-standard service they provide. I have been a paying member of several other anime sources, and have never had a problem paying. But I want a quality product. I do like subs. Some times I cant hear what they are saying, or sometimes (as with characters playing older men) don't understand the mumbles. Sometimes I interpret things differently. Just like you, I am not a native speaker, and the people who translate at DB more than likely are. Regardless of how fluent we would like to think we are, we will still never be as good as a native speaker. Just like a non-native English speaker will always miss the nuances of our language. Moving on to the length of inferiority of crunchycrap's products; EVEN with a 10MB connection, crunchycrap's streams ALWAYS skip, stutter, rebuffer, freeze, etc. They delete them after a while, so there is no catching up when you get caught up with work, practica, school, volunteering, and saving puppies. You pay for it, and you don't get to keep it, which I think is the biggest offense of all, tied with the inaccurate and watered down subs. Being a philanthropist, you more than likely have tons and tons of money to burn on stuff you will never keep. However, for the rest of us; We like to keep what we pay for. You wouldn't go to a restaurant where you could only taste the food (and in keeping with crunchycrap tradition, this has to be terrible food, mind you.) and then have to either spit it out, or regurgitate it, would you? Then again, you may, just for the sake of supporting crunchycrap on any level.
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32 / M / Portland
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Posted 5/31/10

daywrenn wrote:

I can honestly say, as a fellow Japanese speaker, that DB does a terrific job subbing, and crunchycrap ruins anything it steals,eerr touches. Stealing Bleach and putting it under the guise of legalizing it, to expand their profits is detestable, and will hopefully HURT their viewership more than anything. I honestly don't know of any DB fans that will pay crunchycrap for an inferior product. It isn't illegal to record a current show. As I have said before, if that was the case a DVR would be illegal, and all the companies distributing them would be prosecuted. Now, mind you MOST DVR products are distributed by the cable/satellite companies themselves. Again, they wouldn't do it if it was illegal. The reason DB would drop Bleach after crunchycrap steals it, is because, like any other company who feels their profit isn't as large as they would like it to be, they will send cease and desist letters, or sue claiming they need to recoup their lost profits.
And it's not that people have the wrong idea, it's that people have the right idea and see crunchycrap for what it really is. However, since you are more than likely a troller hired by crunchycrap, you can't admit that, and we understand that and accept that. Their membership fee is thousands of times more than what their service is worth, even if the fee is $7, it's still WAY MORE than the sub-standard service they provide. I have been a paying member of several other anime sources, and have never had a problem paying. But I want a quality product. I do like subs. Some times I cant hear what they are saying, or sometimes (as with characters playing older men) don't understand the mumbles. Sometimes I interpret things differently. Just like you, I am not a native speaker, and the people who translate at DB more than likely are. Regardless of how fluent we would like to think we are, we will still never be as good as a native speaker. Just like a non-native English speaker will always miss the nuances of our language. Moving on to the length of inferiority of crunchycrap's products; EVEN with a 10MB connection, crunchycrap's streams ALWAYS skip, stutter, rebuffer, freeze, etc. They delete them after a while, so there is no catching up when you get caught up with work, practica, school, volunteering, and saving puppies. You pay for it, and you don't get to keep it, which I think is the biggest offense of all, tied with the inaccurate and watered down subs. Being a philanthropist, you more than likely have tons and tons of money to burn on stuff you will never keep. However, for the rest of us; We like to keep what we pay for. You wouldn't go to a restaurant where you could only taste the food (and in keeping with crunchycrap tradition, this has to be terrible food, mind you.) and then have to either spit it out, or regurgitate it, would you? Then again, you may, just for the sake of supporting crunchycrap on any level.


Okay, where to start: first off I don't think it should be referred to as stealing, because generally when something is stolen it has to be taken from the person/company that owns it, which would depending on how you look at it either be Viz media, or TV Tokyo.

Expanding profits can be bad and good, as I like to see it, if they can get a bit more money and support to garner more support from Japanese companies willing to license their shows for everyone to see them here in the US then all the better.

If DB fans want to stick with DB, then they should convince DB to continue the subbing rather than complain to CR for trying to offer another channel to watch Bleach. I never watched Naruto so I don't know what kind of issues came about when CR started providing episodes, did CR send cease and desist letters to DB? Why did DB decide to give it up? What was their reason?

As to it being illegal or not, I think DB best answers that question: http://dattebayo.com/faq.aspx

Generally speaking, yes. Downloading fansubs, regardless of their license status is illegal in United States and various other countries. United States Code Title 17 does not allow distribution of copyrighted work by anyone except the copyright owner, and while others may claim that subtitling and distributing anime for entertainment purposes fits under the "fair use" exception, it most certainly does not.


I am certainly not a troll hired by CR, CR provides a service that I think well out weighs the price they ask. As to their subtitle quality, I admit, I don't know what it is, because I've never seen but a glimpse of their translations. In all likeliness DBs is probably better, they spend more time on it, they've had lots of practice, etc. But I for one do not use subtitles, that being the case, I almost never use DB anymore.

I have a lot of complaints about the quality at CR, I think they should get rid of flash, I don't like how some things render, I think a lot of the people in the forums aren't well educated or are way too young and unexperienced. I also hate the stigmatism of some of the 'culture' that comes with being a non Japanese that watches Japanese programming.

As for deleting episodes: Maybe they would delete episodes of Bleach after a while, I know they do it to Fairy Tale, but to my understanding it is the ONLY show where episodes get deleted, and only show that doesn't distribute them freely in a week or two after broadcast, so let's not spread lies and say this is a common occurrence, because it is not.

Not everything paid for belongs to you. Do you get to keep a copy of Ironman 2 or Avatar after you pay 12 dollars to see it in the cinema, no. You certainly get to keep the experience, that they haven't figured out how to take from us. What Crunchyroll is doing is providing a service, no different than Xbox live, cable, cellphone, satellite, etc.

Once again, I don't know what their translations look like, is it really that bad? What approach are they using? Are they translating with footnotes or transliterating so you don't have to know much about the original cultural relevance?

I look forward to maintaining this debate in a civilized fashion, and would like to know what you think.

Oh and I am an anthropologist (person who studies people) not a philanthropist (person who loves people).
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Posted 5/31/10 , edited 5/31/10
Why does CR want Bleach? It's not to hard to type "Dattebayo.com" onto the address bar or favorite search engine; not only is it easy its also free from what I can see. I've been watching bleach since episode one on DB and loved it without any complaints. I understand the legalities and also respect that there are many fans of CR, I have only seen a few subs from CR such as Naruto so I can't really say what's better; after all subbing is just a translation of a dialog in foreign languages for people who don't understand the language it was created with. There is also the flashy part of the subbing, which could include lyrics of the theme song with an intricate design using flash or whatever professional software to make it all flamboyant and elaborate, but that's not where the two differentiate. The real difference between the two is the actual interpretation of the dialog at hand; unfortunately, I cannot say which is best because I do not understand or speak the language. At this point in time there's probably nothing that can be done to support DB and now it all depends on what the main people in Japan decide. From what I can see it's what the fans of CR want, since they are paying for a service they have the ability to speak their mind under that service. It is quite sad that DB might lose bleach.
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Posted 5/31/10
shujinkou I've seen you say a few times that DB is complaining to CR about them wanting to offer Bleach on their website. What I wanna know is can you please quote where and when they said a complaint about them not wanting CR to take on Bleach? Because judging from these quotes..

We also want to support legal options for anime viewing.



DB, and I personally, would like you to lend your support to this effort, but we'd like you to do a bit more. We'd like you to add in that you'd like us to work on it. Every week almost 200,000 of you download our Bleach releases, twice as many as Crunchyroll would like to see answer their petition. If you all came together and made known your desire to have DB continue to work on Bleach, it makes a compelling case. If nothing else, no one can say we didn't try. You can show your support by typing it in the "additional comments" field on the petition, and also by registering on their site and posting in the thread which I have linked to below.

May just be me, but it seems like DB supports CR taking it on.
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Posted 5/31/10
I hope you mean episode 50, which is the first episode they subbed. They started subbing about a year after the series had be running, incidentally this coincides with when Viz licensed it and the other subbers dropped it. If you want DB to continue subbing write them and tell them why you think they still play a valuable part of the community. While I won't be watching their subtitles in the near future, I hope for all their fans that they keep at it, or they could work out something with CR and help do the translations on here.
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Posted 5/31/10

disbebryan wrote:

shujinkou I've seen you say a few times that DB is complaining to CR about them wanting to offer Bleach on their website. What I wanna know is can you please quote where and when they said a complaint about them not wanting CR to take on Bleach? Because judging from these quotes..

We also want to support legal options for anime viewing.



DB, and I personally, would like you to lend your support to this effort, but we'd like you to do a bit more. We'd like you to add in that you'd like us to work on it. Every week almost 200,000 of you download our Bleach releases, twice as many as Crunchyroll would like to see answer their petition. If you all came together and made known your desire to have DB continue to work on Bleach, it makes a compelling case. If nothing else, no one can say we didn't try. You can show your support by typing it in the "additional comments" field on the petition, and also by registering on their site and posting in the thread which I have linked to below.

May just be me, but it seems like DB supports CR taking it on.


It appears that way to me too, but all the anti-CR people got me mixed up about DB's motives and those of the viewers of Bleach on DB.
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Posted 5/31/10 , edited 5/31/10
oops sorry about the typo I edited it and it didn't get through. Also, that message wasn't going towards CR it was for the fans, but they did clearly state it wouldn't matter if they didn't have a set case or rather support for DB to continue working on it. I do understand that they "tried" to work with CR before, it seems that didn't go to well.



We know how many of you were disappointed when we dropped Naruto. At the time that happened, we tried hard to be involved with the subtitling process at Crunchyroll, and made an impressive amount of progress, but it was not to be. And you all adapted: you got used to the "cripes" and other idiosyncrasies of the Viz translation, you weathered Hidan's transition from a raging foul-mouthed psychopath to just being kind of rude. I'm sure only a very small number of you gave up the show once we did.


Either way its not worth arguing about it since it will be subbed whichever road the cause ends. DB or CR, as long as Bleach goes on it is fine with me. Again, I do hope DB gets to keep it and that they work something out with CR. I doubt it will be a win-win case, but time will tell.
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Posted 6/1/10
Here is my humble comment:

as much as I love cr (and it's not alot [anymore]!) I don't really want cr to have Bleach. As a fellow DB supporter *note not a troll, I just idle in their channel* they do a good job subbing it like everybody else already stated. I'm not a fan of streaming, and let alone the fact that cr's subs are not that great let alone good. I've been dl'ing their releases for years and to be honest it will be very hard to go from good subs to barely decent subs. If cr does obtain bleach, then it will be good for cr's activity since it went down the drain in the beginning of 09'. At the same time, I'd prolly drop bleach and just stick to the manga. We'll see what happens hopefully in the next year!
Posted 6/1/10
Just to clarify. I'm not from DB or connected with them in any way, I don't speak japanese (the reason I like good quality subs), I do like DB subs, and I hate streaming video for numerous frustrating reasons. Change is hard, and people don't like change, that much is apparent. My poll (url posted earlier in the thread) is to keep DB doing what they do best. It's against their wishes as they have they say tried to work with CR before, and for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

I like things the way they are, if CR gets bleach and DB drop it, I would hope to use HorribleSubs service instead, because I simply can't stream well, so for me that would kill bleach stone dead. If you had to watch something on a stuttering laptop all the time you'd hold this view too.

All I know is, things work well as they are, and if it aint broke, don't try n fix it - it usually makes matters worse. IF CR were to offer a download service AS WELL AS the stream service, I might not feel so upset. Although my laptop has issues, my connection is 4mb (or supposed to be), i'm lucky most nights if I can get 1.5 / 2 mb. And no, I can't fix that with the exchange, BT or by changing provider, and i'm certainly not going to move house for the sake of an anime. DB have categorically stated, if CR gets bleach,m they will drop it, and to end their press release, they state they don't want anyone trying to argue the toss, the decision is made.

Of the numerous people who complained here, and of the people who have begun signing the poll i setup, it's clear that CR is rocking the boat somewhat by advocating a completely different delivery method; for a lot of people, that's not cool. Take streaming flash as a small example, because fflash based banners and ads can be SO annoying (we all remember the buzzing bee, and the ba-da-ding-de-darrrrr annoying frog dont we) a lot don't install flash, so, how can they watch without compromising their preferred browser settings.

Clearly toes have been stepped on, but i'd rather have what we know works, For those who CAN'T for whatever reason follow bleach to CR, the news of DB dropping it is devastating after following it for so long. Last point, if it wasnt for fansubs (accurate ones, i've seen cr ones before and they ARE bad when you KNOW what certain words mean swearing and you get ''you fool'' on the screen instead for example) I doubt anime would have the western penetration it currently enjoys - which actually still isnt much.

When Urotsokidoji came out there were about 10 titles up for grabs. IIFC, professional golgo 13, ultimate teacher, RG Veda, Dominion tank police, bubblegum crisis, cyber city oedo and project AKO, fist of the north star and i think, doomed megalopolis. Walk into ANY HMV store and go look at the VAST amount (not) of titles currently available through mainstream outlets; it's not great. Fansubs get people interested, streaming cuts down the number of people who can watch and who can pay to watch which ultimately hurts retail sales.

Anyway... back to the banter, those are my direct points, i'm sure there are many more to consider plus however many knock on effects either pro, or con. and while there are those of you who prefer to watch without subs, spare a thought for those of us who do like them, and WANT ichigo to say SHIT and BASTARD when it comes onscreen, not 'you fool' - really kills the impact.

Enjoying the debate, some good points coming out on both sides of the fence. I don't support spamming boards (I did say that earlier when I provided the link). All play nice and we might achieve a cohesive mutual resolution we can all be happy with. But CR, please do talk to DB ? open up a conversation and try to work together... for everyones benefit.
Ta.
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Zhiroc 
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Posted 6/2/10
This news hasn't hit CR's site yet, but it seems to be a done deal:

http://www.otakureview.net/?p=7505
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