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China tries to sterilise 10,000 parents over one-child rule
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Posted 4/21/10 , edited 4/21/10

DomFortress wrote:


vinsane01 wrote:

You cant blame their government for doing this. The population of the country is 1.4 billion i believe. That is just too many. They are just making an example out of a few. IMO its more inhumane to let the population continue to grow. Why is it more inhumane? Go figure.
Because you're selfish, in a sense that as long as you're not the one that's being made as an example you don't give a damn?


Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Who's your sociology teacher? Or do you think that social planning is based on a bunch of imaginary figures and "ifs"?

OTOH if you looked at my claim, you'll see that my allegation was based on empirical knowledge as well as real statistics, meaning objective truth with credibility. Therefore your claim is not even perfect, when it's just unrealistic made-belief.


I don't have any sociology teacher, but i know it as fact that businesses make a healthy economy and that government run economies are shit, Look at the communist countries excluding china, their economies are weak and everyone is poor. Your telling me that a communist / socialist economy is better than a capitalist economy ? Prove it, what country with a communist / socialist economy has a stronger economy then a capitalist country of equal size / population ?

Look at North Korea their communist and have more people than south Korea which is capatist, and South Korea economy is much stronger, look at the japanese back when, they had the second most powerful economy in the world, seconded only by America and they don't have as many people, the japanese economy was stronger then russias or chinas, but they screwed that up for themselves.

Give me one country that is communist that has a better economy and quality of life than a capitalist country of equal population since you like communism so much, name one. Excuding china since they have a hybrid economy

When it comes to raw economic power, economies that are pro business / low taxes will always win.
Get it through your head, while communism and socialism are all sociological ideologies, only capitalism is a pure economic ideology with no concern of social well being.

Therefore while your bias opinion on capitalism completely blinded your view on the topic, which is about the social well being of the people and not economy. You also overgeneralized my stance as an inspired sociologist, not an economist nor a communist. I don't believe a "win-loose" situation nor am I here to play the "zero-sum" game, so you can stop talking nonsense about your obsession with capitalism. Because right now you're a poster child for materialism, not humanitarianism.


And you give a damn? What will you do then? Rant in an internet forum?

Sad as it may seem, something needs to be done. Some sacrfices needs to be made. And if those sacrifices includes vasectomy and tubal ligations, so be it. Cmon its cutting some tubes. It wont kill anyone. Forced abortions is another thing though. I am not in agreement with that, but the article doesnt talk about any of that.

It may look bad now but the chinese government is doing what it takes to prevent future problems that may arise. And if they dont do anything about it they'll get blamed in future anyways. Either way theyll get the heat. Why not do something about the problem now.
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Posted 4/21/10

DomFortress wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:



Now there's the rub, a cultural influence of discriminating and objectifying women and children as the social norms. This male-dominated behavior pattern is a hallmark for a society of patriarchy, which is especially true when in time of crisis due to lack of resources.

Furthermore, when we consider just how the Chinese authorities are institutionalizing their method of family planning is equally inhumane, by them "detaining the relatives of those who resist" the forced sterilization. It's therefore not hard for us to see a behavioral pattern of vicious circle, of Chinese elitists treating their citizens as domesticated livestock:

These people can't leave because they're too poor and uneducated to go anywhere else, while they're being held captive and penalized by the very authoritative figures that's supposed to keep them safe and prosperous. This is the reality of Chinese policy at work; exploiting the poorer counties so that the richer counties can become even richer, a perfect model exemplar for how the shock doctrine of disaster capitalism works.



Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

'Well I guess I am no better than they are. I believe people should have to get parenting Licenses to have kids.IN order to better are community and economic growth. Keep poor people from having more kids in order to be a bigger drain on tax payers. Also In order to battle the creations of slums, and the formation of gangs and thugs. Its all for the better of are living conditions and stopping the strains that the over breeding of certain parties has on us economically.


Having babies is a gift, taking the stance such as China on sterilizing rogue couples who have more than 1 baby seems a little intrusive and doesn't solve the main problem. And whos to say that a couple with 10 children cannot afford or able to take care of them. Couples may want to have more babies due to natural crisis such as recent earthquake where families with 1 children when they lose their only child.

And whos to say the poor make poor parents, in some cases especially in developed countries, its the opposite, the child is left alone or with a nanny or spoilt rotten by their parents as they are better off. Education is key for all couples intending to have a child or already have children. Aid should be given to poor couples with children.

I give the example of Singapore which enforce strict family planning after WW2 but it work too well but now suffer from lack of local talent or possible labor shortage in future despite attempts now to encourage more couples to have more babies.

China is an interesting case by which Government need to react to a growing population boom and enforce the 1-child policy and sterilize couples but this measure can be abuse as a tool by the government as a means of discrimination for certain groups or races.

China rethinking 1 child policy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ala_GkUE8lk
Israel birth control policy? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc
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Posted 4/21/10
I am pretty sure that hog wash. they need more female to fill the gap because so many female were kill so they could have a son now there's a lake of women over there. Now other ethnek group in Chine may be tsrget.
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Posted 4/21/10

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Who's your sociology teacher? Or do you think that social planning is based on a bunch of imaginary figures and "ifs"?

OTOH if you looked at my claim, you'll see that my allegation was based on empirical knowledge as well as real statistics, meaning objective truth with credibility. Therefore your claim is not even perfect, when it's just unrealistic made-belief.


I don't have any sociology teacher, but i know it as fact that businesses make a healthy economy and that government run economies are shit, Look at the communist countries excluding china, their economies are weak and everyone is poor. Your telling me that a communist / socialist economy is better than a capitalist economy ? Prove it, what country with a communist / socialist economy has a stronger economy then a capitalist country of equal size / population ?

Look at North Korea their communist and have more people than south Korea which is capatist, and South Korea economy is much stronger, look at the japanese back when, they had the second most powerful economy in the world, seconded only by America and they don't have as many people, the japanese economy was stronger then russias or chinas, but they screwed that up for themselves.

Give me one country that is communist that has a better economy and quality of life than a capitalist country of equal population since you like communism so much, name one. Excuding china since they have a hybrid economy

When it comes to raw economic power, economies that are pro business / low taxes will always win.


Forgive me for double posting please. But this is to make it neater as based on 2 different aspects of this topic.
Since we are discussing countries and economies, lets take Communist China vs Capitalist USA?

Both countries are doing well, but Capitalist USA owes China money so technically USA is owned by China. So does this mean Communism is superior to Capitalism.

My two cents are both are inferior, pure capitalism is destructive in that it encourages greed as a source of progress and pure communism is destructive as it creates society that allow government too much control thus providing means to abuse. I study economics and any economic student will tell u, which is better Communism or Capitalism? Free Market or Government control. Both sucks!! A balance of both is needed.
Posted 4/21/10


The point is that china want's to mainly have males in their families or want males/sons and go to so such measures to kill their 2nd child (if they have one)if that is a girl and that's a huge problem.Going off and sterilizing people like this and there is no opposite sex there will be no more people left to procreate left with. That will be a really huge problem for their country keeps doing this like they are so far.
Posted 4/21/10 , edited 4/21/10

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Get it through your head, while communism and socialism are all sociological ideologies, only capitalism is a pure economic ideology with no concern of social well being.

Therefore while your bias opinion on capitalism completely blinded your view on the topic, which is about the social well being of the people and not economy. You also overgeneralized my stance as an inspired sociologist, not an economist nor a communist. I don't believe a "win-loose" situation nor am I here to play the "zero-sum" game, so you can stop talking nonsense about your obsession with capitalism. Because right now you're a poster child for materialism, not humanitarianism.


That's not what I was talking about, I was talking purely economic tho.

The social well being of a person should be up to that person, people should take care of themselves. People should be responsible for themselves. If they can't do that, then well I guess their out of luck, however there are exceptions tho, like if someone is disabled mentally or physically of course, or something.

But if a fully capable person should be able to take care of themselves

Why do we need someone to take care of us ? My life is my responsiblity, how i life my life is my responsiblity, its not for someone else to decide. If i wanna live like a slob then that is my right, just like if i don't wanna live like a slob its my right, it should be an indivudals right to decide how he / she lives his / her life.


However that's idealy and not the case in china, which is overpopulated.

And in response to that overpopulation in china the govt has said only one kid per household, which is a good thing in that case, as the population would rise from 1 billion which is already over populated to some unsustainable number and then the quality of life would just get even worse. Its not nessarly a bad thing to only have one kid, keeps the cost down, less stress on the parent / s. whats the problem ?

However i think forcebly sterilizing someone to prevent them from having kids may be a little extreme, but that's not for me or you to decide, its up to the chinese government to decide. Each country has its own way of doing things and that's their right. Nothing I nor you could really do about it, and complaining or picketing doesn't accomplish anything execpt to annoy people.


I don't believe there is such a thing as a true "win win" situation, nothing is perfect, that applies to govt, economies or social policies, there is always some downside to something no matter what it is, thus nothing is ever a win win, its always a win-lose in way
Do you support a government's decision to blackmail its citizens with threat like detaining their relatives?

Furthermore, were you capable of taking care of yourself since the moment that you were born?

Finally, how would you solve the problem of an aging population? When the "one child" policy will reduce a nation's population beyond sustainability in the future.

Still think that any governing body can just do whatever the damn it wants with its citizens? How's that makes you any different that the communists that you hate?

Therefore you don't believe in "win-win" because you are selfish and bias, not because you know anything of relevancy.


vinsane01 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


vinsane01 wrote:

You cant blame their government for doing this. The population of the country is 1.4 billion i believe. That is just too many. They are just making an example out of a few. IMO its more inhumane to let the population continue to grow. Why is it more inhumane? Go figure.
Because you're selfish, in a sense that as long as you're not the one that's being made as an example you don't give a damn?


And you give a damn? What will you do then? Rant in an internet forum?

Sad as it may seem, something needs to be done. Some sacrfices needs to be made. And if those sacrifices includes vasectomy and tubal ligations, so be it. Cmon its cutting some tubes. It wont kill anyone.
Forced abortions is another thing though. I am not in agreement with that, but the article doesnt talk about any of that.

It may look bad now but the chinese government is doing what it takes to prevent future problems that may arise. And if they dont do anything about it they'll get blamed in future anyways. Either way theyll get the heat. Why not do something about the problem now.
Like you're no better.

And would you go with it when your government processes you the same way? If yes, why wait 'til then when you can just get it done now? When an aging population isn't your immediate concern due to your shortsighted mentality.

So yeah, why is your dick worth a damn more than another woman's vagina?


Northboundsnow wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:



Now there's the rub, a cultural influence of discriminating and objectifying women and children as the social norms. This male-dominated behavior pattern is a hallmark for a society of patriarchy, which is especially true when in time of crisis due to lack of resources.

Furthermore, when we consider just how the Chinese authorities are institutionalizing their method of family planning is equally inhumane, by them "detaining the relatives of those who resist" the forced sterilization. It's therefore not hard for us to see a behavioral pattern of vicious circle, of Chinese elitists treating their citizens as domesticated livestock:

These people can't leave because they're too poor and uneducated to go anywhere else, while they're being held captive and penalized by the very authoritative figures that's supposed to keep them safe and prosperous. This is the reality of Chinese policy at work; exploiting the poorer counties so that the richer counties can become even richer, a perfect model exemplar for how the shock doctrine of disaster capitalism works.


China is an interesting case by which Government need to react to a growing population boom and enforce the 1-child policy and sterilize couples but this measure can be abuse as a tool by the government as a means of discrimination for certain groups or races.

China rethinking 1 child policy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ala_GkUE8lk
Israel birth control policy? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc
I took the liberty to assume that the above was to address my reply.

A sustainable birth rate should be around 2.1, that's even taking into consideration of the baby boomers in the long run. It's also a fact that whenever a government body needs to react to a situation is either due to an emergency or a lack of foresight. And since sociology already has the answer to aging population VS family planning, the only cause for the Chinese government's reactive method towards social planning is therefore its own ignorance.
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Posted 4/22/10

DomFortress wrote:

I took the liberty to assume that the above was to address my reply.

A sustainable birth rate should be around 2.1, that's even taking into consideration of the baby boomers in the long run. It's also a fact that whenever a government body needs to react to a situation is either due to an emergency or a lack of foresight. And since sociology already has the answer to aging population VS family planning, the only cause for the Chinese government's reactive method towards social planning is therefore its own ignorance.


I do agree to some of your points. I thought to clear any misunderstanding any1 may have of China first. Chinese people are family oriented, they love children very much. While it is common here to have 2-3 children, its not uncommon for the Chinese to have 5-6 children or even 10. Thats what make this 1 child policy and forced sterilization so strange to fathom considering the nature of Chinese people.


1. I think its an amateur documentary (surprisingly good) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_06DyfRoo
2. JourneyMan Pictures - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4OWJlyaHt0

My Past links
1. China rethinking 1 child policy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ala_GkUE8lk
2. Israel birth control policy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc
Posted 4/22/10

Northboundsnow wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

I took the liberty to assume that the above was to address my reply.

A sustainable birth rate should be around 2.1, that's even taking into consideration of the baby boomers in the long run. It's also a fact that whenever a government body needs to react to a situation is either due to an emergency or a lack of foresight. And since sociology already has the answer to aging population VS family planning, the only cause for the Chinese government's reactive method towards social planning is therefore its own ignorance.


I do agree to some of your points. I thought to clear any misunderstanding any1 may have of China first. Chinese people are family oriented, they love children very much. While it is common here to have 2-3 children, its not uncommon for the Chinese to have 5-6 children or even 10. Thats what make this 1 child policy and forced sterilization so strange to fathom considering the nature of Chinese people.


1. I think its an amateur documentary (surprisingly good) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-_06DyfRoo
2. JourneyMan Pictures - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4OWJlyaHt0

My Past links
1. China rethinking 1 child policy - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ala_GkUE8lk
2. Israel birth control policy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc
Regardless of the Chinese cultural variant about traditional family values, the fact still remains that these are people with a mentality sustained by their brain.

Therefore, although it might looks reactionary with the Chinese government and their inhumane policy. However when we consider the psychological condition for learned helplessness, suddenly all these forceful and emotionally shocking regulations begin to make sense:

I mean with the recent earthquake as a natural shock, what better timing to implement a series of inhumane regulations onto people with poorer living condition? Soon they wouldn't even care because their individual dignity will be reduced to an infant state, and they'll just kill themselves with their depression.
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Posted 4/22/10
Human rights go both ways. I have a right to found a family and I also have a right not to have my enjoyment of my life diminished by people whom our resources can no longer supply with what they need and go on to take, through various means, from others. In this situation there are two rights clashing and they are, given the circumstances, irreconcilable. Enjoyment of life and the right to it is a much more basic right than the right to found a family. If you lose the former, you have lost everything, so in my view a right to the enjoyment of life should take precedence over the right to found a family, especially considering that the limitation in China is not absolute, but partial and people have the right to found a family, only not a large or larger one. I think the Chinese government is, overall, mental, but on this matter, I can only salute them.
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Posted 4/22/10

DomFortress wrote:
Do you support a government's decision to blackmail its citizens with threat like detaining their relatives?


I don't support that, I never said I did, I said its not my place to tell the Chinese government how to run itself.


Furthermore, were you capable of taking care of yourself since the moment that you were born?


That's what parents are for.


Finally, how would you solve the problem of an aging population? When the "one child" policy will reduce a nation's population beyond sustainability in the future.


Not really, once the population dies down enough you simply remove the policy.


Still think that any governing body can just do whatever the damn it wants with its citizens? How's that makes you any different that the communists that you hate?


A governing body can do whatever it wants with its citizens if that's the law there, In China that's how it works.
Posted 4/22/10 , edited 4/22/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

Human rights go both ways. I have a right to found a family and I also have a right not to have my enjoyment of my life diminished by people whom our resources can no longer supply with what they need and go on to take, through various means, from others. In this situation there are two rights clashing and they are, given the circumstances, irreconcilable. Enjoyment of life and the right to it is a much more basic right than the right to found a family. If you lose the former, you have lost everything, so in my view a right to the enjoyment of life should take precedence over the right to found a family, especially considering that the limitation in China is not absolute, but partial and people have the right to found a family, only not a large or larger one. I think the Chinese government is, overall, mental, but on this matter, I can only salute them.
However, when there's a new family policy being institutionalized by the Chinese government in different counties. While at the same time the old policy was a failure because it didn't reduce the number of population. The efficiency of the Chinese government is questionable at best.

Furthermore, when the real incentive behind the inhumane practice of detaining relatives was due to a "risk of failing in their bid for promotion to a second-tier county if they cannot meet all quotas. That includes keeping the number of births within government limits", while at the same time there was "A state-level regulation stipulates that couples who violate the family planning policy must not be punished without proper authorization and family members may not be penalized to put pressure on couples". The credibility of the Chinese government is on shaky ground.

Finally, this is basically a classic case of discrimination among social classes; one that involve government authoritative figures and the citizens who are below poverty line. And that's already on top of a preexisting gender discrimination due to the traditional family values of a patriarchy society. So if this form of discrimination is justifiable, what's not to say that all discrimination can be justified by the simple analogy of the enjoyment of the few is being threaten by the needs of the most? Unless of course:

Allhailodin wrote:


DomFortress wrote:
Do you support a government's decision to blackmail its citizens with threat like detaining their relatives?


I don't support that, I never said I did, I said its not my place to tell the Chinese government how to run itself.


Furthermore, were you capable of taking care of yourself since the moment that you were born?


That's what parents are for.


Finally, how would you solve the problem of an aging population? When the "one child" policy will reduce a nation's population beyond sustainability in the future.


Not really, once the population dies down enough you simply remove the policy.


Still think that any governing body can just do whatever the damn it wants with its citizens? How's that makes you any different that the communists that you hate?


A governing body can do whatever it wants with its citizens if that's the law there, In China that's how it works.
One completely discriminates both parties as something outlandish. Which in and of itself is a form of prejudice; a selfish and senseless act of discrimination just to make oneself feel good.
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