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America
Posted 5/21/10

TheAncientOne wrote:

I wish I had the power to make the United States disappear from the world around the beginning of the 20th century, but leave all those alive now in other countries with the memories of this reality. It would be interesting to check in 10 years later and see how many people thought the world was worse, vs. those that think it was better.


Then who would have defeated Nazi Germany? England? Canada? France? I doubt it. Maybe China, but I think since America was able to do what it did when the world was in need, we can rest assured that it wasn't/isn't a total wash.
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Posted 5/21/10

Baka_Gaijin wrote:


TheAncientOne wrote:

I wish I had the power to make the United States disappear from the world around the beginning of the 20th century, but leave all those alive now in other countries with the memories of this reality. It would be interesting to check in 10 years later and see how many people thought the world was worse, vs. those that think it was better.


Then who would have defeated Nazi Germany? England? Canada? France? I doubt it. Maybe China, but I think since America was able to do what it did when the world was in need, we can rest assured that it wasn't/isn't a total wash.


With the U.S. completely out of the picture (well before the war), England would have been doing quite well to even survive as a sovereign nation. France was already occupied, and China, despite its population advantage, had more than enough problem trying to stave off Japan.

Arguably, the Soviet Union might have, but I think you see the problem there.

On the one hand, it is almost certain that without the aid offered by the U.S. lend/lease program, the Soviets would have fared substantially worse against Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union is a huge country, however, so the best Germany could likely have obtained would have been a negotiated peace, with Germany retaining possession of most of the western Soviet Union.

Assuming Germany did prevail, unless the remnant of the Soviet Union was enough to provide a common enemy, the would likely eventually come in conflict with the other great power of that world, their former ally, Japan. This would be an even more likely outcome if the Soviet Union prevailed in Europe.

Frankly, the further one gets from the divergence from current history, the more difficult it is to predict what would happen. That is why I wish it could be made to really happen, as there could then be no debate.


FYI, you overlooked that that with the U.S. out of the picture since the beginning of the century, the outcome of the first World War would have been different. It is probable that the Nazi movement may have never occurred, and World War II in Europe would have never happened. It is also probable, however, that all the countries involved would be so weakened by an even longer war, and their remaining populace so sickened by it, that they would be left easy pickings for a Soviet Union that might remain much like the one in our own reality.

Posted 5/21/10

TheAncientOne wrote:


Baka_Gaijin wrote:


TheAncientOne wrote:

I wish I had the power to make the United States disappear from the world around the beginning of the 20th century, but leave all those alive now in other countries with the memories of this reality. It would be interesting to check in 10 years later and see how many people thought the world was worse, vs. those that think it was better.


Then who would have defeated Nazi Germany? England? Canada? France? I doubt it. Maybe China, but I think since America was able to do what it did when the world was in need, we can rest assured that it wasn't/isn't a total wash.


With the U.S. completely out of the picture (well before the war), England would have been doing quite well to even survive as a sovereign nation. France was already occupied, and China, despite its population advantage, had more than enough problem trying to stave off Japan.

Arguably, the Soviet Union might have, but I think you see the problem there.

On the one hand, it is almost certain that without the aid offered by the U.S. lend/lease program, the Soviets would have fared substantially worse against Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union is a huge country, however, so the best Germany could likely have obtained would have been a negotiated peace, with Germany retaining possession of most of the western Soviet Union.

Assuming Germany did prevail, unless the remnant of the Soviet Union was enough to provide a common enemy, the would likely eventually come in conflict with the other great power of that world, their former ally, Japan. This would be an even more likely outcome if the Soviet Union prevailed in Europe.

Frankly, the further one gets from the divergence from current history, the more difficult it is to predict what would happen. That is why I wish it could be made to really happen, as there could then be no debate.


FYI, you overlooked that that with the U.S. out of the picture since the beginning of the century, the outcome of the first World War would have been different. It is probable that the Nazi movement may have never occurred, and World War II in Europe would have never happened. It is also probable, however, that all the countries involved would be so weakened by an even longer war, and their remaining populace so sickened by it, that they would be left easy pickings for a Soviet Union that might remain much like the one in our own reality.



So you think that if the U.S. never existed, there wouldn't have been Nazism? That is preposterous. Really, there would likely have been some kind of supremacist movement somewhere threatening the world. Hitler was a small, failure of a man who caused the worst atrocities to ever happen in history. Not to mention, he could have just somehow become an artist, even though his skill in that was mediocre at best. If Nazi Germany had not been torn down MOSTLY by America, no one would have stood a chance. German discipline and engineering has been proven powerful to a frightening level when fielded in combat. No Oriental country would have stood a chance, no one in the Middle East, not India, not a fucking nation on this rock called Earth would have been able to prevail against Germany. The blight of Nazism would have swallowed this planet whole.

Just break down and admit that those Yankee bastards pretty much saved the bacon of the whole world. It can't be denied, and you can't change history no matter how much you would like to. If Germany won, we'd be speaking German on some forum about how Hitler was so great with MPs pressed to our fucking skulls!
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Posted 5/21/10

Baka_Gaijin wrote:

So you think that if the U.S. never existed, there wouldn't have been Nazism? That is preposterous.


Without the U.S. existing in the 20th century, it is considerably less likely Britain, France, etc., would have "won" the first World War. Germany need not themselves "win" either. While all European nations suffered from the aftermath of the war, and then the Great Depression, it was the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles that made Germany a fertile ground for the Nazi movement.



Really, there would likely have been some kind of supremacist movement somewhere threatening the world. Hitler was a small, failure of a man who caused the worst atrocities to ever happen in history. Not to mention, he could have just somehow become an artist, even though his skill in that was mediocre at best.


While it is possible another such movement may have arose, it would be helpful if you could point to the seeds of one that might have resulted from the U.S. being out of the picture.

Regarding Hitler, it is also possible that with the U.S. out of the picture, WWI would have lasted longer, and he might have been killed in a later battle.



If Nazi Germany had not been torn down MOSTLY by America, no one would have stood a chance. German discipline and engineering has been proven powerful to a frightening level when fielded in combat. No Oriental country would have stood a chance, no one in the Middle East, not India, not a fucking nation on this rock called Earth would have been able to prevail against Germany. The blight of Nazism would have swallowed this planet whole.

I should warn you that I am a WWII history buff.

The contribution of the Soviet military should not be underestimated in the defeat of Nazi Germany. Even if the Soviet Union was essentially out of the picture, by the time Germany and Japan came into conflict, both would have massive empires. The real tipping point would be if one developed nuclear weaponry substantially before the other. There is also the factor of alliances by other nations. One could easily write a novel (or several), just based on the most likely scenarios alone.


Just break down and admit that those Yankee bastards pretty much saved the bacon of the whole world. It can't be denied, and you can't change history no matter how much you would like to. If Germany won, we'd be speaking German on some forum about how Hitler was so great with MPs pressed to our fucking skulls!

I wouldn't be speaking it, as I wouldn't be here.

I was born in the U.S, as were my parents and their parents. Remember, in my scenario, the U.S. simply disappears in 1900. (For the record, just think of the U.S. land masses as being replaced by a huge arid desert, which no appreciable resources left underneath; no need to complicate things with possible conflicts over vacated territory or resources, or changes wrought by creating a massive link between the Atlantic and Pacific).

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Posted 5/21/10
Thank you for your out look never thought to put in those terms. Tiring to tell allot of these younger people with there politically correct History books has been like putting a dent in a cannon ball with a feather.
Posted 5/21/10

TheAncientOne wrote:


Baka_Gaijin wrote:

So you think that if the U.S. never existed, there wouldn't have been Nazism? That is preposterous.


Without the U.S. existing in the 20th century, it is considerably less likely Britain, France, etc., would have "won" the first World War. Germany need not themselves "win" either. While all European nations suffered from the aftermath of the war, and then the Great Depression, it was the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles that made Germany a fertile ground for the Nazi movement.



Really, there would likely have been some kind of supremacist movement somewhere threatening the world. Hitler was a small, failure of a man who caused the worst atrocities to ever happen in history. Not to mention, he could have just somehow become an artist, even though his skill in that was mediocre at best.


While it is possible another such movement may have arose, it would be helpful if you could point to the seeds of one that might have resulted from the U.S. being out of the picture.

Regarding Hitler, it is also possible that with the U.S. out of the picture, WWI would have lasted longer, and he might have been killed in a later battle.



If Nazi Germany had not been torn down MOSTLY by America, no one would have stood a chance. German discipline and engineering has been proven powerful to a frightening level when fielded in combat. No Oriental country would have stood a chance, no one in the Middle East, not India, not a fucking nation on this rock called Earth would have been able to prevail against Germany. The blight of Nazism would have swallowed this planet whole.

I should warn you that I am a WWII history buff.

The contribution of the Soviet military should not be underestimated in the defeat of Nazi Germany. Even if the Soviet Union was essentially out of the picture, by the time Germany and Japan came into conflict, both would have massive empires. The real tipping point would be if one developed nuclear weaponry substantially before the other. There is also the factor of alliances by other nations. One could easily write a novel (or several), just based on the most likely scenarios alone.


Just break down and admit that those Yankee bastards pretty much saved the bacon of the whole world. It can't be denied, and you can't change history no matter how much you would like to. If Germany won, we'd be speaking German on some forum about how Hitler was so great with MPs pressed to our fucking skulls!

I wouldn't be speaking it, as I wouldn't be here.

I was born in the U.S, as were my parents and their parents. Remember, in my scenario, the U.S. simply disappears in 1900. (For the record, just think of the U.S. land masses as being replaced by a huge arid desert, which no appreciable resources left underneath; no need to complicate things with possible conflicts over vacated territory or resources, or changes wrought by creating a massive link between the Atlantic and Pacific).



Result: the world dies. We don't need anyone so hateful of his own country as you. I bet you posted all that impressively insightful writing from a very concealed location. As for me caring whether or not you are a WWII buff, I don't. What else are you? Tell me, Mr. Knowitall. Are you a weapon buff. Can you tell me the average velocity of the .30-06 round fired from an M1 Garand? Can you tell me about the history of the .50 BMG without looking it up on some internet site? Can you tell me, from the corners of your increasingly senile mind, just how much all your trivial knowledge matters, other than to defeat me in debate, and whoever else, in this sickly forum?

Take pride in your affluence, my elder and better. No one is as learned and accomplished as you, The Ancient One. Poring yourself over volumes of WWII knowledge tells me a lot about you. You live in the past. You're just a fragment from a different time.

But, what do I know? I am just a frog pretending to have a human mind.
Posted 5/21/10

tarakelly wrote:

Thank you for your out look never thought to put in those terms. Tiring to tell allot of these younger people with there politically correct History books has been like putting a dent in a cannon ball with a feather.


Are you even sentient?
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Posted 5/21/10
WW 2 would not have happened if Germany was not set up as a Democracy from the first war and French and other demanding Germany to foot the bill for the war. The US sitting president tried to stop it but lost. The league of nation was a bigger joke than the UN is but not by much. I fairly certain you do not understand how Hitler came to power. Do to comments made early on.
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Posted 5/21/10
Germany and Japan both were trying to create a A bomb which one would have used it first if the world did not have Americas in the way?
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Posted 5/21/10
The M-1 grand proved not to be a very effective weapon in Asia that why we have the M16. the grand could blow a hole through a tree but the round would go straight through a enemy solider and he keep coming. M-16 has been re modified three or four times. great weapon as long as no dirt mud sand is around other wise it jams up plenty of time. I herd it has improved to where it is a respectable weapon. and jamming is not a problem
Posted 5/21/10

tarakelly wrote:

The M-1 grand proved not to be a very effective weapon in Asia that why we have the M16. the grand could blow a hole through a tree but the round would go straight through a enemy solider and he keep coming. M-16 has been re modified three or four times. great weapon as long as no dirt mud sand is around other wise it jams up plenty of time. I herd it has improved to where it is a respectable weapon. and jamming is not a problem


The M4, based on the M16, is widely used, and works well for a wide variety of situations. It can be taken indoors easily and shoots marvelously at medium range. Then we have the M1A or the old M14, which make the M1 Garand look like crap since they have a detachable magazine and other additions. They are best used from medium to long range.
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Posted 5/21/10
I would like to have used M 14 never had the chance
Posted 5/21/10

tarakelly wrote:

WW 2 would not have happened if Germany was not set up as a Democracy from the first war and French and other demanding Germany to foot the bill for the war. The US sitting president tried to stop it but lost. The league of nation was a bigger joke than the UN is but not by much. I fairly certain you do not understand how Hitler came to power. Do to comments made early on.


Hitler was elected. Enough said.
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Posted 5/22/10

Baka_Gaijin wrote:


TheAncientOne wrote:


Baka_Gaijin wrote:

So you think that if the U.S. never existed, there wouldn't have been Nazism? That is preposterous.


Without the U.S. existing in the 20th century, it is considerably less likely Britain, France, etc., would have "won" the first World War. Germany need not themselves "win" either. While all European nations suffered from the aftermath of the war, and then the Great Depression, it was the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles that made Germany a fertile ground for the Nazi movement.



Really, there would likely have been some kind of supremacist movement somewhere threatening the world. Hitler was a small, failure of a man who caused the worst atrocities to ever happen in history. Not to mention, he could have just somehow become an artist, even though his skill in that was mediocre at best.


While it is possible another such movement may have arose, it would be helpful if you could point to the seeds of one that might have resulted from the U.S. being out of the picture.

Regarding Hitler, it is also possible that with the U.S. out of the picture, WWI would have lasted longer, and he might have been killed in a later battle.



If Nazi Germany had not been torn down MOSTLY by America, no one would have stood a chance. German discipline and engineering has been proven powerful to a frightening level when fielded in combat. No Oriental country would have stood a chance, no one in the Middle East, not India, not a fucking nation on this rock called Earth would have been able to prevail against Germany. The blight of Nazism would have swallowed this planet whole.

I should warn you that I am a WWII history buff.

The contribution of the Soviet military should not be underestimated in the defeat of Nazi Germany. Even if the Soviet Union was essentially out of the picture, by the time Germany and Japan came into conflict, both would have massive empires. The real tipping point would be if one developed nuclear weaponry substantially before the other. There is also the factor of alliances by other nations. One could easily write a novel (or several), just based on the most likely scenarios alone.


Just break down and admit that those Yankee bastards pretty much saved the bacon of the whole world. It can't be denied, and you can't change history no matter how much you would like to. If Germany won, we'd be speaking German on some forum about how Hitler was so great with MPs pressed to our fucking skulls!

I wouldn't be speaking it, as I wouldn't be here.

I was born in the U.S, as were my parents and their parents. Remember, in my scenario, the U.S. simply disappears in 1900. (For the record, just think of the U.S. land masses as being replaced by a huge arid desert, which no appreciable resources left underneath; no need to complicate things with possible conflicts over vacated territory or resources, or changes wrought by creating a massive link between the Atlantic and Pacific).



Result: the world dies. We don't need anyone so hateful of his own country as you. I bet you posted all that impressively insightful writing from a very concealed location. As for me caring whether or not you are a WWII buff, I don't. What else are you? Tell me, Mr. Knowitall. Are you a weapon buff. Can you tell me the average velocity of the .30-06 round fired from an M1 Garand? Can you tell me about the history of the .50 BMG without looking it up on some internet site? Can you tell me, from the corners of your increasingly senile mind, just how much all your trivial knowledge matters, other than to defeat me in debate, and whoever else, in this sickly forum?

Take pride in your affluence, my elder and better. No one is as learned and accomplished as you, The Ancient One. Poring yourself over volumes of WWII knowledge tells me a lot about you. You live in the past. You're just a fragment from a different time.

But, what do I know? I am just a frog pretending to have a human mind.


Had to qute this. First, yeah it is true that numerically speaking, Russians fought with 80% of german military (+ their allies), while the rest of the world fought with the rest. If you compare the numbers, the number of divisions (one group of armies) which was fighting in my country against not so underground resistance, was the same as number of divisions which was fighting against US. What happened during the 1945 was this: russians were terrible victors, who were out there for revenge. Of course, since they were allies, not much is written about their crimes against german citizens, since german citizens "deserved" it. So most of the german army was fighting to slow down russians, while civilians were running towards us and british forces. Bulk of US army was fighting against Japan.
About WWI... it is funny how many books dont say the truth: france and britain caused the war. Germany had better industry, (one little country was close in productivity to the whole british empire), france wanted alzaisse and lorreaine back. (which they lost 50 years before wwI).
Posted 5/22/10 , edited 5/22/10

blancer wrote:


Baka_Gaijin wrote:


TheAncientOne wrote:


Baka_Gaijin wrote:

So you think that if the U.S. never existed, there wouldn't have been Nazism? That is preposterous.


Without the U.S. existing in the 20th century, it is considerably less likely Britain, France, etc., would have "won" the first World War. Germany need not themselves "win" either. While all European nations suffered from the aftermath of the war, and then the Great Depression, it was the harsh conditions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles that made Germany a fertile ground for the Nazi movement.



Really, there would likely have been some kind of supremacist movement somewhere threatening the world. Hitler was a small, failure of a man who caused the worst atrocities to ever happen in history. Not to mention, he could have just somehow become an artist, even though his skill in that was mediocre at best.


While it is possible another such movement may have arose, it would be helpful if you could point to the seeds of one that might have resulted from the U.S. being out of the picture.

Regarding Hitler, it is also possible that with the U.S. out of the picture, WWI would have lasted longer, and he might have been killed in a later battle.



If Nazi Germany had not been torn down MOSTLY by America, no one would have stood a chance. German discipline and engineering has been proven powerful to a frightening level when fielded in combat. No Oriental country would have stood a chance, no one in the Middle East, not India, not a fucking nation on this rock called Earth would have been able to prevail against Germany. The blight of Nazism would have swallowed this planet whole.

I should warn you that I am a WWII history buff.

The contribution of the Soviet military should not be underestimated in the defeat of Nazi Germany. Even if the Soviet Union was essentially out of the picture, by the time Germany and Japan came into conflict, both would have massive empires. The real tipping point would be if one developed nuclear weaponry substantially before the other. There is also the factor of alliances by other nations. One could easily write a novel (or several), just based on the most likely scenarios alone.


Just break down and admit that those Yankee bastards pretty much saved the bacon of the whole world. It can't be denied, and you can't change history no matter how much you would like to. If Germany won, we'd be speaking German on some forum about how Hitler was so great with MPs pressed to our fucking skulls!

I wouldn't be speaking it, as I wouldn't be here.

I was born in the U.S, as were my parents and their parents. Remember, in my scenario, the U.S. simply disappears in 1900. (For the record, just think of the U.S. land masses as being replaced by a huge arid desert, which no appreciable resources left underneath; no need to complicate things with possible conflicts over vacated territory or resources, or changes wrought by creating a massive link between the Atlantic and Pacific).



Result: the world dies. We don't need anyone so hateful of his own country as you. I bet you posted all that impressively insightful writing from a very concealed location. As for me caring whether or not you are a WWII buff, I don't. What else are you? Tell me, Mr. Knowitall. Are you a weapon buff. Can you tell me the average velocity of the .30-06 round fired from an M1 Garand? Can you tell me about the history of the .50 BMG without looking it up on some internet site? Can you tell me, from the corners of your increasingly senile mind, just how much all your trivial knowledge matters, other than to defeat me in debate, and whoever else, in this sickly forum?

Take pride in your affluence, my elder and better. No one is as learned and accomplished as you, The Ancient One. Poring yourself over volumes of WWII knowledge tells me a lot about you. You live in the past. You're just a fragment from a different time.

But, what do I know? I am just a frog pretending to have a human mind.


Had to qute this. First, yeah it is true that numerically speaking, Russians fought with 80% of german military (+ their allies), while the rest of the world fought with the rest. If you compare the numbers, the number of divisions (one group of armies) which was fighting in my country against not so underground resistance, was the same as number of divisions which was fighting against US. What happened during the 1945 was this: russians were terrible victors, who were out there for revenge. Of course, since they were allies, not much is written about their crimes against german citizens, since german citizens "deserved" it. So most of the german army was fighting to slow down russians, while civilians were running towards us and british forces. Bulk of US army was fighting against Japan.
About WWI... it is funny how many books dont say the truth: france and britain caused the war. Germany had better industry, (one little country was close in productivity to the whole british empire), france wanted alzaisse and lorreaine back. (which they lost 50 years before wwI).


I thought WWI was caused by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, which led to an arms race amongst all Europe. And it is true that the U.S. got into WWII when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. So the U.S. too was out for revenge like Russia. The crippling of the Japanese war effort was imperative, though. Without them in the picture, Hitler lost a valuable ally, yet he already did before we even forced them into surrendering with Fat Man and Little Boy. Old Adolf also made the same mistake as Napolean Bonaparte before him; dividing his forces. Maybe if the U.S. never got involved, Germany would have exhausted their ability to wage war, eventually.
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