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Posted 6/23/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:

3. Which international? The western countries which rules UN or small countries which do not have same rights as developed countries in UN? There are 2 types of countries on this world. The one which sided with western or US, and the other one which doesn't. Brazil, Turkey, Venezuela, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, Egypt, Lebanon, Norway etc. do not recognized Hamas as terrorist group. They are recognized as insurgency groups, the same as... Khmer in Cambodia, FARC in Colombia, RN in Greece, Tamil Tiger in Sri Lanka, IRA in Irlandia, ALIR in Rwanda, Basque or ETA in Spain, GAM in Indonesia, etc etc...



All or most of these are considered Terrorist Orgranisations in my country. even if they weren't you're going to hold up a bunch of coke dealers and kidnappers like FARC not being called terrorist by some countries as evidence that Hamas is on the side of the angels. What are you smoking? where can I get some?

And that's not even discussing Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge which outdid both Hitler and Stalin when it comes to a percentage of the countries population murdered by it's own security apparatus.

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Posted 6/23/10 , edited 6/23/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

On this single point I will opine.
Hamas has (and not just with it's rocket attacks) deliberately targeted the civilian populace. deliberately targeted schools and hospitals. They CHOSE those targets. That's Terrorism.

Isreal is saying "We fired back at where we THOUGHT the rockets were coming from and we hit a school instead. Our bad." That's why that's NOT terror.

It's a weak cowardly terrorist tactic (and a violation of the Geneva convention) to hide your combatants among the civil population they are supposed to protect. Hamas not only does that, but it does it deliberately so that it can claim martyrs and lay charges of atrocity at Israel's door.


According to the August 24 OCHA situation report, during Operation Summer Rain Israel has carried out at least 267 air strikes in Gaza. Hundreds of artillery shells have been fired into the Gaza Strip, while Palestinians have fired less than six homemade rockets per day into Israel, injuring 11 people.

More than 120 Palestinian houses, workshops, parliamentary buildings and greenhouses have been destroyed by the Israeli military; another 160 have been badly damaged. Gaza continues to have limited access to electricity and water supplies as a result of Israel’s deliberate destruction its only power plant and other civilian infrastructure in the first days of the assault.

Thousands of Palestinians are now homeless. On August 9, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency was forced to close three temporary shelters it had set up to aid the homeless, after Israeli occupation forces shelled the buildings.

Israel has also stepped up its assault on civilians in the West Bank. According to a report issued by Israeli human rights group B’Tselem on August 21, Israeli military forces have severely beaten, assaulted and humiliated Palestinians, with many of the victims requiring urgent medical treatment. B’Tselem said that Hezbollah’s successes in the month-long war in Lebanon “aggravated the rage and frustration of security forces, which they have expressed in increased aggression towards Palestinians”.

Don't forget the attack december 2008 - january 2009 attack on Gaza which killed many children.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dec08.html


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

All or most of these are considered Terrorist Orgranisations in my country. even if they weren't you're going to hold up a bunch of coke dealers and kidnappers like FARC not being called terrorist by some countries as evidence that Hamas is on the side of the angels. What are you smoking? where can I get some?

And that's not even discussing Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge which outdid both Hitler and Stalin when it comes to a percentage of the countries population murdered by it's own security apparatus.



Your definition on terrorist is too subjective. Do they just go killing and kidnapping around? They do have objectives to be proposed to their respective' country, like segregation, making their own country, wanted autonomy region, etc. Even you'll be called terrorist in most countries if you oppose your government. If you believe in Communism and Socialism, they might even call you terrorist.

Does that meant Khmer, Hitler and Stalin were terrorist? Yes, by people who opposed them and hero for their own people.
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Okay first you're talking about a single incident and when I say that single incident doesn't apply you bring up a year old offensive where the israelis moved into Gaza after repeated attacks.

It's hard to argue when you keep reframing the debate to favour hamas.

as for the terrorist thing. You really think FARC is up to any good for it's people? Even the average Columbian has had enough of FARC.

as for Germans and Russians calling Hitler and Stalin heroes respectively.... Words fail me. You don't read much history do you?

oh and on the subject of that offensive and the rocket attacks that inspired it.. here's my post from several days ago.


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Unlike some, I don't pretend that Isreal is anything other than eager co-beligerant (rather than a helpless victim). That said I see a lot of onesided assertions against the legality of that Nation's existence which I take exception to.

British Palestine, after years of Palestinian Guerrilla and Terrorist acts (by the both of the people would become Palestinians and Israelis)
was to be divided between the two peoples and handed over. The British and the French (not mention everyonelse in the middle east) were already making plans to drive the Israelis out. In the event the attackers did so poorly that they lost their own territories to the Israeli self defence. Since that time, every time someone has attacked Israeli they've lost a hill or a riverbank out of their territory that represented a strategic defence point. The plan was to leave no Israelis to cry about being losers but becuase the shoe is on the other foot everyone likes to protray the Israelis as unmitigated bad guys.

Let me tell you something. If the Royal Canadian armed forces lined up all their Toronto based Artilliary batteries and started shelling Buffalo for shits and giggles, the American response would make the Israeli incursion into the West Bank look like a model of patience and restraint.

I'm sure also if CF troops took off their uniforms and hid among the rest of us so their Carl Gustavs might have a chance firing at the ass of an M1 Abrams we'd have eaten our unfair share of 105 HESH rounds too.

but everything is Israel's fault right?





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Posted 6/23/10 , edited 6/23/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Okay first you're talking about a single incident and when I say that single incident doesn't apply you bring up a year old offensive where the israelis moved into Gaza after repeated attacks.

It's hard to argue when you keep reframing the debate to favour hamas.

as for the terrorist thing. You really think FARC is up to any good for it's people? Even the average Columbian has had enough of FARC.

as for Germans and Russians calling Hitler and Stalin heroes respectively.... Words fail me. You don't read much history do you?

oh and on the subject of that offensive and the rocket attacks that inspired it.. here's my post from several days ago.





What I meant was, when a rocket fired randomly to Israelis civilians, Israel responded it with heavy armed weapon which killing more Palestinians civilians. That doesn't mean to justify both actions when both side were injured. In my thought, both are terrorist for killing civilians and destroying facilities, and at the same time both are heroes when they protecting their people and fighting against their enemies.

I'm saying this numerous times, is it really hard to understand? One country's terrorist, is another country's hero. Colombian were also believed for the FARC ideology, but they turned around when FARC was diverting themselves from their original purpose and doing cocaine business for money. Don't read your country's version only, read from another perspective of story. Read the part of history about what Hitler and Stain contribution for their country.

Well, what American's government said is always true, right? So true that Canadian happily sending their troops to killing civilians in middle-east and violating international laws. As Weapon of Mass Destruction and Biological Weapon had never been proven.

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Posted 6/23/10

Ryutai-Desk wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Okay first you're talking about a single incident and when I say that single incident doesn't apply you bring up a year old offensive where the israelis moved into Gaza after repeated attacks.

It's hard to argue when you keep reframing the debate to favour hamas.

as for the terrorist thing. You really think FARC is up to any good for it's people? Even the average Columbian has had enough of FARC.

as for Germans and Russians calling Hitler and Stalin heroes respectively.... Words fail me. You don't read much history do you?

oh and on the subject of that offensive and the rocket attacks that inspired it.. here's my post from several days ago.





What I meant was, when a rocket fired randomly to Israelis civilians, Israel responded it with heavy armed weapon which killing more Palestinians civilians. That doesn't mean to justify both actions when both side were injured. In my thought, both are terrorist for killing civilians and destroying facilities, and at the same time both are heroes when they protecting their people and fighting against their enemies.

I'm saying this numerous times, is it really hard to understand? One country's terrorist, is another country's hero. Colombian were also believed for the FARC ideology, but they turned around when FARC was diverting themselves from their original purpose and doing cocaine business for money. Don't read your country's version only, read from another perspective of story. Read the part of history about what Hitler and Stain contribution for their country.

Well, what American's government said is always true, right? So true that Canadian happily sending their troops to killing civilians in middle-east and violating international laws. As Weapon of Mass Destruction and Biological Weapon had never been proven.



You know what, I give up. your utter ignorance of History greater than current events.( Hitler was DISOWNED by the Germans, Stalin institutionally forgotten by the soviets for years), Your unwillingness to concede even a minor point while you protest to be coming to an agreement. It's clear who you favour and what sort of 'agreement' you want. there is no shaking you from either position so. I'll stop wasting my breath.


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papagolfwhiskey wrote:

You know what, I give up. your utter ignorance of History greater than current events.( Hitler was DISOWNED by the Germans, Stalin institutionally forgotten by the soviets for years), Your unwillingness to concede even a minor point while you protest to be coming to an agreement. It's clear who you favour and what sort of 'agreement' you want. there is no shaking you from either position so. I'll stop wasting my breath.



You know, this is the result of biased media that constanly telling you which one is right and wrong, the answer is there is no absolute wrong and right. Both has its share of Light and Darkness. Hitler was favored by Germany at that time when he expanding Germany' areas and make Germany's one of the strongest military in Europe. There are many factors like health, walfare, education, etc for Germans people.

Recent research by academics such as Götz Aly has emphasized the role of the extensive Nazi social welfare programs that focused on providing employment for German citizens and insuring a minimal living standard for German citizens. Heavily focused on was the idea of a national German community. To aid the fostering of a feeling of community, the German people's labour and entertainment experiences from festivals, to vacation trips and traveling cinemas were all made a part of the "Strength through Joy" (Kraft durch Freude, KdF) program. Now in Germany's text school book, they only told that they were wrong and lost.

Because of Stalin, Soviet can defeat nazi weren't they? He was praised because of that and sure many other. At the same time, condemned too. There is no such thing as entirely right or wrong, every history events have both of them. Japan praised their heroes for attacking Americans in Pearl Harbour, and Americans praised their soldier for nuking Japanese. You have to be very subjective when it comes to your enemy of your country.

Well, it because American won in world war II and Soviet lost in Cold War, that makes everything Americans said is correct and make many countries willingly invading countries in middle-east and destroyed homes, even UN powerless against America. Has any human rights group questioning Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib Prison and many other places which clearly violate human rights and many international laws?
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Ryutai-Desk wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

1- That is the point, Israel has taken responsibility for their mistake ie admitting that they have accidentally kill civilians. You are trying to make them a villian for it.

2- They have some power. Just as how Israeli-Arabs also have power, and Israeli-Communists have power, having members in the Knesset. The Orthodox Jews do not controll everything, no matter how much you wish such were the case.

3- Hamas is an internationally recognised terrorist organisation, but they do talk sense rarely. I shall concede thus.

4- No, not when you openly kill civilians for the sake of killing civilians, intimidating opposition within, instigate suicide bombing, &c. for the sake of inspiring terror. Hence, terrorist. The PLO have open talks with Israel, have ceased their operations, and still fight for the 'freedom' of the palestinian people, they don't go around killing.

5- One, Israel is not asking to evict Palestinians out of their land. Also, Taiwan is part of China, that's why it is under the flag of the REPUBLIC OF CHINA, founded by Non-Taiwanese Dr. Sun Yat-sen. It is not some seperate political entity, its population is composed of 90% ethnic Han Chinese, it is culturally Chinese, and its government claims to be the legitimate government of all of China. So, you are wrong on both points.

If you don't want to be judged as pro-Hamas, then you should stop acting thusly.


1. Hamas also often admitting their acts of firing rockets. What's the difference? You are trying to make them a villain for it.

2. I don't have problem with coalition in general. However, the party that has allied with the ruling party have ideology that might bring unfairness to others. If you have Socialism ideology in Democrat party, would Americans agree? If Communism allied with Republican to gain presidency, would Americans agree? If the party doesn't considered themselves as the most superior human beings on the earth and claim the area as their promised lands, I don't have problem with that.

3. Which international? The western countries which rules UN or small countries which do not have same rights as developed countries in UN? There are 2 types of countries on this world. The one which sided with western or US, and the other one which doesn't. Brazil, Turkey, Venezuela, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, Egypt, Lebanon, Norway etc. do not recognized Hamas as terrorist group. They are recognized as insurgency groups, the same as... Khmer in Cambodia, FARC in Colombia, RN in Greece, Tamil Tiger in Sri Lanka, IRA in Irlandia, ALIR in Rwanda, Basque or ETA in Spain, GAM in Indonesia, etc etc...

4. As I said, that's what will happen if you have 2 forces confront each other. If Hamas is terrorist, then Israel is terrorist too. If Taliban is terrorist, US army is terrorist too. All of them are included in your category.

5. Do you know the movement of Zionism? Their goal is to achieved Jewish State. We can see their activities to achieved their goals. Do you really know about Taiwan? United States presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush have been known to have referred to Taiwan as a country during their terms of office. If Taiwan is a part of China with 'Officially acknowledged worldwide', why China aim their thousands of missile to Taiwan? What flag did Taiwan shown in Beijing Olympic?

The China or People Republic of China government has issued triggers for an immediate war with Taiwan or Republic of China, most notably via its controversial Anti-Secession Law of 2005, thus both nation could be in war anytime. These conditions are:
- if events occur leading to the separation of Taiwan from China in any name, or
- if a major event occurs which would lead to Taiwan's separation from China, or
- if all possibility of peaceful unification is lost.

If you really read my post without judging me to be pro-hamas in the firs place, then you won't find me saying Israel as you said. Both has rights to live together. How many times you said I'm bias when you justified all Israel actions as they destroying school and houses? Who are really biased when you said the rockets fired from Hamas is terror, while the rockets fired from Israel is 'accident'?


1. My point is that they are doing it with the intention of killing civilians while Israel doesn't. Therefore, they are villains for doing so.

2. Coalitions are a vital part of democracies. When a big party make a coalition, it is usually with other parties of similar ideology, like the Republicans with the Conservatives with the Rightist front, not Republicans and Marxist. That way, in sharing similar goals, there shall be less negotiations.

3. Are you serious? Khmers, as in ethnic Cambodians, having an insurgency in Cambodia? Where do you read your news? I am part Cambodian myself, you should think twice before making such absurd and idiotic statements. But, yes, the International community would be the UN, which is comprised of most of the nations of the world. It is not controlled by only the 'European Powers', as you seem to think, and it is not some front for European Imperialism. Also, most of the nations you mention are fellow Middle Eastern Nations who share a hatred against Israel, so your list is prejudiced.

4. Israel and the US do not kill people for the hell of it, they attack and terminate armed belligerent. That is how a war is conducted. Terrorism is when you go to someone's house or to someone's place of worship, attack wantonly, all for the sake of inspiring terror.

5. Yes I know what Zionism is, to create and defend the Jewish state. Having a predominately Jewish state already created, they are now only defending it against belligerent nations and from Internal disruption.

As for China, you do not know what you are talking about- Taiwan is geographically, politically, and culturally part of China, has been, always will be. Most Taiwanese see themselves as both 'Taiwanese' as in from the Taiwanese Island, and 'Chinese', as in ethnically Chinese. Their government is called the 'Republic of China' because it is the Chinese Republic. Taiwan is not some separate entity. In fact, America recognised Taiwan's government as the legitimate Chinese government until Nixon visited China and recognised its communist government. And it was around the late '70s that Taiwan's seat as the representative of China in the UN was overtaken by China. This is not because China's pointing nukes and missile at poor little Taiwan, but because Taiwan was, and always will be, Chinese. Now that they aren't getting the perks of being the officially recognised government, some Taiwanese wants to claim independence. How do I know? Because I am, I don't know, Han Chinese like 90% of Taiwan, and I actually studied this topic before using it as an example.

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orangeflute wrote:

1. My point is that they are doing it with the intention of killing civilians while Israel doesn't. Therefore, they are villains for doing so.

2. Coalitions are a vital part of democracies. When a big party make a coalition, it is usually with other parties of similar ideology, like the Republicans with the Conservatives with the Rightist front, not Republicans and Marxist. That way, in sharing similar goals, there shall be less negotiations.

3. Are you serious? Khmers, as in ethnic Cambodians, having an insurgency in Cambodia? Where do you read your news? I am part Cambodian myself, you should think twice before making such absurd and idiotic statements. But, yes, the International community would be the UN, which is comprised of most of the nations of the world. It is not controlled by only the 'European Powers', as you seem to think, and it is not some front for European Imperialism. Also, most of the nations you mention are fellow Middle Eastern Nations who share a hatred against Israel, so your list is prejudiced.

4. Israel and the US do not kill people for the hell of it, they attack and terminate armed belligerent. That is how a war is conducted. Terrorism is when you go to someone's house or to someone's place of worship, attack wantonly, all for the sake of inspiring terror.

5. Yes I know what Zionism is, to create and defend the Jewish state. Having a predominately Jewish state already created, they are now only defending it against belligerent nations and from Internal disruption.

As for China, you do not know what you are talking about- Taiwan is geographically, politically, and culturally part of China, has been, always will be. Most Taiwanese see themselves as both 'Taiwanese' as in from the Taiwanese Island, and 'Chinese', as in ethnically Chinese. Their government is called the 'Republic of China' because it is the Chinese Republic. Taiwan is not some separate entity. In fact, America recognised Taiwan's government as the legitimate Chinese government until Nixon visited China and recognised its communist government. And it was around the late '70s that Taiwan's seat as the representative of China in the UN was overtaken by China. This is not because China's pointing nukes and missile at poor little Taiwan, but because Taiwan was, and always will be, Chinese. Now that they aren't getting the perks of being the officially recognised government, some Taiwanese wants to claim independence. How do I know? Because I am, I don't know, Han Chinese like 90% of Taiwan, and I actually studied this topic before using it as an example.



1. So only Palestinians who have intention to kill civilians while Israel don't? The attack on December 2008 - January 2009 and many other tells they commence attack knowing the civilians still there.

2. That's my point, if they share same ideology then the ultra-orthodox had some control to achieve their goals toward Jewish State based on Promised Land

3. No matter you look bad at them, Khmer Rouge is a Communist insurgency that is trying to destabilize the Cambodian Government. Explain me why there is no investigation regarding of what big nations do. The list are Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib prison, Israel's nuclear, Bagram Prison, War on Afghanistan and Iraq, etc. All of them are not being investigated by human rights council and it's clear all of them are violating Geneva Convection. If they would be put sanctions for violate it, then nobody will be saying UN is in western power.

That's some prejudiced you have there. While Iran have the 2nd most populous Jews country in middle-east. Do you think they hate Jews? While Jews in Iran can live whatever they want and pray in Synagogue. Clarify your sources before making ignorant comments.

4. They are. You just don't know beacause your media covered it. When you can find hundreds of international news telling the civilians death by US army.

What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,000 - 3,400 [October 7, 2001 thru March 2002] civilian deaths -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan." Professor Marc W. Herold Ph.D., M.B.A., B.Sc.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/06/07/110675.html
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=119748&sectionid=351020403

5. It's okay if they do it without make blockade to other country. At least, they should preserve basic human rights to Palestinians. Making money on top of other's suffering would never be justified. If you share your prosperity, you would be blessed by them.

Of course, Taiwanese would referring them as in ethnically Chinese, same as Singaporeans and Chinese-Americans even if they had changed their nationality. Not some, majority of Taiwanese wants independence. Taiwan's independence movement gained momentum in 1995 when Washington allowed Taiwan's then president, Lee Teng-hui, to visit the United States. During his stay, Lee gave a speech at Cornell University that signaled his impatience for independence.

If they are one from begin with, why they need Anti-Secession Law of 2005 which is saying:
The China or People Republic of China government has issued triggers for an immediate war with Taiwan or Republic of China, most notably via its controversial Anti-Secession Law of 2005, thus both nation could be in war anytime. These conditions are:
- if events occur leading to the separation of Taiwan from China in any name, or
- if a major event occurs which would lead to Taiwan's separation from China, or
- if all possibility of peaceful unification is lost.
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Posted 6/23/10
orangeflute, why are you bothering? Your opponent won't even concede on issues on which he or she displays glaring ignorance. and whenever you're close to making a point, diverts in a random direction.
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Posted 6/23/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

orangeflute, why are you bothering? Your opponent won't even concede on issues on which he or she displays glaring ignorance. and whenever you're close to making a point, diverts in a random direction.


You know, open our mind a little bit and listen to others opinion is helping us to understand the world better from different perspective.
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orangeflute wrote:

Why do people always harp on the bad and neglect the good of that nation?


Back to the OP.

Well I think it's fashionable on a number of levels:

1) For one thing, they aren't angels and ARE in a constant state of siege. They do indeed do things worth harping on.

2) For many, especially in the middle east, They and the US are linked at the hip and thus Anti-israeli and anti-US sentiments co-exist and feed on each other. A sin commited by one becomes the sin of the other by association.

3) For the US internal left wing nuts, Israeli can be labeled and portrayed as an example of right wing militarism. I'm sure the american lefties hate the US support for Israel whether they hate Israel or not.

4) Anti-Semitism. Yes I know this card get's played by the those who defend Israel to the point where it is cheapened and devalued but.... It's still present in our world.

5) To feel better about themselves? The most sucessfull states in the Middle East in terms of avoiding war and having decent economies are israel and countries that gave up attacking Israel (like Jordan). Maybe the religious dogma wears thin when the ones who abandon it or never had it in the first place seem to be able to do more with less. That must rankle.

6) Because they're still at war; it may not be declared, it may be fought with proxy dupes like Hamas and Hezbollah but I'm sure the war of words hasn't stopped since before 1947.


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Ryutai-Desk wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

1. My point is that they are doing it with the intention of killing civilians while Israel doesn't. Therefore, they are villains for doing so.

2. Coalitions are a vital part of democracies. When a big party make a coalition, it is usually with other parties of similar ideology, like the Republicans with the Conservatives with the Rightist front, not Republicans and Marxist. That way, in sharing similar goals, there shall be less negotiations.

3. Are you serious? Khmers, as in ethnic Cambodians, having an insurgency in Cambodia? Where do you read your news? I am part Cambodian myself, you should think twice before making such absurd and idiotic statements. But, yes, the International community would be the UN, which is comprised of most of the nations of the world. It is not controlled by only the 'European Powers', as you seem to think, and it is not some front for European Imperialism. Also, most of the nations you mention are fellow Middle Eastern Nations who share a hatred against Israel, so your list is prejudiced.

4. Israel and the US do not kill people for the hell of it, they attack and terminate armed belligerent. That is how a war is conducted. Terrorism is when you go to someone's house or to someone's place of worship, attack wantonly, all for the sake of inspiring terror.

5. Yes I know what Zionism is, to create and defend the Jewish state. Having a predominately Jewish state already created, they are now only defending it against belligerent nations and from Internal disruption.

As for China, you do not know what you are talking about- Taiwan is geographically, politically, and culturally part of China, has been, always will be. Most Taiwanese see themselves as both 'Taiwanese' as in from the Taiwanese Island, and 'Chinese', as in ethnically Chinese. Their government is called the 'Republic of China' because it is the Chinese Republic. Taiwan is not some separate entity. In fact, America recognised Taiwan's government as the legitimate Chinese government until Nixon visited China and recognised its communist government. And it was around the late '70s that Taiwan's seat as the representative of China in the UN was overtaken by China. This is not because China's pointing nukes and missile at poor little Taiwan, but because Taiwan was, and always will be, Chinese. Now that they aren't getting the perks of being the officially recognised government, some Taiwanese wants to claim independence. How do I know? Because I am, I don't know, Han Chinese like 90% of Taiwan, and I actually studied this topic before using it as an example.



1. So only Palestinians who have intention to kill civilians while Israel don't? The attack on December 2008 - January 2009 and many other tells they commence attack knowing the civilians still there.

2. That's my point, if they share same ideology then the ultra-orthodox had some control to achieve their goals toward Jewish State based on Promised Land

3. No matter you look bad at them, Khmer Rouge is a Communist insurgency that is trying to destabilize the Cambodian Government. Explain me why there is no investigation regarding of what big nations do. The list are Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib prison, Israel's nuclear, Bagram Prison, War on Afghanistan and Iraq, etc. All of them are not being investigated by human rights council and it's clear all of them are violating Geneva Convection. If they would be put sanctions for violate it, then nobody will be saying UN is in western power.

That's some prejudiced you have there. While Iran have the 2nd most populous Jews country in middle-east. Do you think they hate Jews? While Jews in Iran can live whatever they want and pray in Synagogue. Clarify your sources before making ignorant comments.

4. They are. You just don't know beacause your media covered it. When you can find hundreds of international news telling the civilians death by US army.

What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,000 - 3,400 [October 7, 2001 thru March 2002] civilian deaths -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan? The explanation is the apparent willingness of U.S. military strategists to fire missiles into and drop bombs upon, heavily populated areas of Afghanistan." Professor Marc W. Herold Ph.D., M.B.A., B.Sc.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/06/07/110675.html
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=119748&sectionid=351020403

5. It's okay if they do it without make blockade to other country. At least, they should preserve basic human rights to Palestinians. Making money on top of other's suffering would never be justified. If you share your prosperity, you would be blessed by them.

Of course, Taiwanese would referring them as in ethnically Chinese, same as Singaporeans and Chinese-Americans even if they had changed their nationality. Not some, majority of Taiwanese wants independence. Taiwan's independence movement gained momentum in 1995 when Washington allowed Taiwan's then president, Lee Teng-hui, to visit the United States. During his stay, Lee gave a speech at Cornell University that signaled his impatience for independence.

If they are one from begin with, why they need Anti-Secession Law of 2005 which is saying:
The China or People Republic of China government has issued triggers for an immediate war with Taiwan or Republic of China, most notably via its controversial Anti-Secession Law of 2005, thus both nation could be in war anytime. These conditions are:
- if events occur leading to the separation of Taiwan from China in any name, or
- if a major event occurs which would lead to Taiwan's separation from China, or
- if all possibility of peaceful unification is lost.


1- No, but Palestinian terrorist organisations do.

2- The Shas party is considered Ultra-Right, having a more powerful, more Centre-Right Party level them out in a coalition, forcing them to concede some of their more extreme points.

3- The Khmer Rouge is not a 'Khmer insurgency' but a group in the Cambodian Civil War, who fight against, I don't know, other Khmers. Your laudable attempt to fit your ethno-centric view of history have no fall short upon this point. So the French revolution is a French insurgency against...other French folks. Universal condemnation of Abu Gharib in the UN is not enough? Nor is the universal condemnation of Gautanemo?

4-Anti-Israel is not Anti-Semitism.

5-I don't know how to drive it into you-- Taiwan is China, although it belongs to a different government. Their passport have the words 中華民國 (Zhong Hua Min Guo) emblazoned upon them, which basically translate to 'Chinese Republic' (min being populace, common people, and guo being country).

At least concede the last point, and, being weary, I will just agree that our positions are, as of now, irreconcilable.
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Posted 6/23/10 , edited 6/23/10
You do know that before the British set up Palestine they were not a nation at all. It kind strange that people take for granted that the Palestine nation was always there to begin with. If they did have a nation just because of where they lived,, it would be mostly in Jordan. Do some reading on the history of the Palestinians. It may wake you up just a little bit.
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As I understand it, Communist China sees Taiwan as Rebel Province. Whereas Taiwan sees itself as the last hold out of true Chinese Democracy against Rebel Insurgents

feel free to enlighten me. All I really know is that's where Chiang Kai Shek holed up after Mao got rolling. And where a lot of cheap toys and knick knacks used to be made.
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Posted 6/23/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

As I understand it, Communist China sees Taiwan as Rebel Province. Whereas Taiwan sees itself as the last hold out of true Chinese Democracy against Rebel Insurgents

feel free to enlighten me. All I really know is that's where Chiang Kai Shek holed up after Mao got rolling. And where a lot of cheap toys and knick knacks used to be made.


That is very accurate description of the relationship between the PRC and the RoC, actually.
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