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Purposeful design or mindless process?
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Posted 6/1/10 , edited 6/1/10
This is not RELIGION. I repeat. This is not RELIGION.

The purpose of this thread is to know what is you stance about the universe- a purposeful design or mindless process.


In 1802, English clergyman and theologian William Paley expounded his reasons for a belief in a Creator (this is not about religion. This could be any being. Just a creator). He stated that if while crossing a heath, he were to find a stone lying on the ground, he might reasonably conclude that natural processes had put it there. But if instead he were to find a watch, he would scarcely come to the same conclusion. Why? For the simple reason that a watch has all the hallmarks of design and purpose.

Paley's ideas had a profound influence on the English naturalist Charles Darwin. Yet, contrary to Paley's logic, Darwin later proposed that the apparent design in living organisms could be explained by a process that he termed, "natural selection." Darwinian evolution was seen by many as the definitive answer to arguments of design.

A great deal has been written on the subject since the days of Paley and Darwin. The arguments in favor of design on the one hand and of natural selection on the other have been refined, elaborated on, and updated. And both sides of the subject have greatly influenced what people believe about purpose- or lack of purpose- in the universe.

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some sub topics (same questions)

What makes science possible?

Scientific research is possible because the physical world is orderly and because energy and matter behave in a predictable, uniform manner in a given set of circumstances. This order can be expressed in a the fundamental laws of mathematics, physics, chemistry and so on. Without, such order, scientific work, technology, and life itself could simply not exist.

So the question arise: what is the origin of physical laws? And why do they function as they do?

Did it spring from nothing?

The DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) molecules in each living cell contains elaborate, detailed instructions necessary for the correct development of organisms. Although DNA is much more complex, it could be compared to the digital information embedded on a DVD. When processed, the coded data on a DVD makes it possible for one to watch a video or listen to music. Similarly, DNA molecules, shaped like twisted rope ladders, carry encoded information that underpins all life and that makes living things differ- bananas from beans, zebras from ants, humans from whales.

Harldy would anyone suggest that the digital information on a DVD could possible be a product of spontaneous events. Is it reasonable to propose that the highly complex information in DNA sprang from nothing?
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Posted 6/1/10
" Man knows at last that he is alone in the unfeeling immensity of the universe from which he emerged by chance. His destiny is nowhere spelled out, nor is his duty."

Jacques Monod, Nobel Prize winniner in Physiology and Medicine
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Posted 6/1/10

alupihan45 wrote:

The DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) molecules in each living cell contains elaborate, detailed instructions necessary for the correct development of organisms. Although DNA is much more complex, it could be compared to the digital information embedded on a DVD. When processed, the coded data on a DVD makes it possible for one to watch a video or listen to music. Similarly, DNA molecules, shaped like twisted rope ladders, carry encoded information that underpins all life and that makes living things differ- bananas from beans, zebras from ants, humans from whales.

Harldy would anyone suggest that the digital information on a DVD could possible be a product of spontaneous events. Is it reasonable to propose that the highly complex information in DNA sprang from nothing?


It's disingenuous to state that the "mindless process" believes that complex things such as DNA arise out of nowhere.
Posted 6/1/10 , edited 6/1/10
So we all know the basic details of how all lifeforms were formed, but none of us know the definite origin. Of course if I said how the universe came into being, most would respond "The Big Bang," but what exactly caused it? Simply it couldn't have come out of nowhere, for we know that everything in this universe is caused by action and that every action has cause behind it.

To me, Mankind has many years ahead of it to continue to reflect and analyze the vast frontier that is our universe, let's just hope we aren't killed by then.


Also, this thread doesn't need to be turned into another one of you all's religious debates. Any off topic posts will be deleted, and a ban will be given as such if continued. Thank you, and try to be respectful.
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Posted 6/1/10 , edited 6/2/10
Well when you find that hole just at bottom spinal cord that where a tail used tail used to be there. I do not think we are the only living varmints in the universe on this one planet billions different have lived and die out replace by other living things. Right now we think so well create build what ever and learn new ways to see the universe. People have and will do more than self replicate eat and sleep like most other animals will ever do so far. With this brain we all have some works better than others and most of us understand what pain is and what it feels like to inflict or receives it. To me that awareness a state self conchs were we learn bad from good or right or wrong and as time has gone buy societies have evolved with law and parents in allot a of case teach there off spring many things so they do not have to learn the hard way. Plenty of things out side civil law can be learned through books school experiences of life and a lot of people have to learn the hard way by going through tough spot. Maybe the first amino acid was intelligent design and from that! You could say both are right intelligent design and Darwin law helped shaped things here it would be arrogant to think we will not be surpassed by something else down the road. Another off shut from this species or some out of the blue, may evolved and replace us may even hunt us. There are so many things going in the universe that affect us or can change life. Thing we do not even understand or just plain ignorance on our part. I am very sure there is other living thing out in other solar systems. The speed of light is theory but another theory can change or bend it light so the speed would have to change because of stronger force affecting it.
Posted 6/2/10
Either way, "God must be crazy", to think that by planning a "watch" would prove something. When nobody knows what a watch is, how it works, and why design such an outdated and unreliable piece of technology. While today an useful tool is all about multifunction, personalized, and direct accessibility. Which is anything but what a God is within the context of Theism.

"Correspondence is not causation."
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Posted 6/2/10
Not analogies again, please! There is so much information we do not have. How the hell will you tell if an unyielding 'thing' is analogous with another if you do not, yet, know the nature of said 'thing'? You won't run an analogy on so little information. No you won't. Certainly not as long as something so xomplex is concerned with so many factors and variables.
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Posted 6/2/10

DomFortress wrote:

Either way, "God must be crazy", to think that by planning a "watch" would prove something. When nobody knows what a watch is, how it works, and why design such an outdated and unreliable piece of technology. While today an useful tool is all about multifunction, personalized, and direct accessibility. Which is anything but what a God is within the context of Theism.

"Correspondence is not causation."


lol. you didn't get it. no arguments from your post. Just explaining what was mentioned.

When you are taking a walk and saw a pebble infront of you, one may conclude that i was there through natural means (a big rock used to be there. Time passed, it eroded until it reduced to a pebble then a strong rain came and flooded it where you saw it...something like that)

However, when you are walking, you saw a watch laying infront of you. It is hard to say that it was there by natural means like the example from above since a watch is a complex device that needs to be assembled first. It cannot build on its own. Furthermore, a watch isn't suppose to be lying in a road as it is designed to be attached somewhere to be used.
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Posted 6/2/10

DerfelCadarn wrote:

Not analogies again, please! There is so much information we do not have. How the hell will you tell if an unyielding 'thing' is analogous with another if you do not, yet, know the nature of said 'thing'? You won't run an analogy on so little information. No you won't. Certainly not as long as something so xomplex is concerned with so many factors and variables.


hey. i think it's been a while since there was a discussion about the cosmos.

besides, this thread is not only for you. it is an opportunity to share to others
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digs 
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Posted 6/2/10
I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.
Posted 6/2/10

alupihan45 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:

Either way, "God must be crazy", to think that by planning a "watch" would prove something. When nobody knows what a watch is, how it works, and why design such an outdated and unreliable piece of technology. While today an useful tool is all about multifunction, personalized, and direct accessibility. Which is anything but what a God is within the context of Theism.

"Correspondence is not causation."


lol. you didn't get it. no arguments from your post. Just explaining what was mentioned.

When you are taking a walk and saw a pebble in front of you, one may conclude that i was there through natural means (a big rock used to be there. Time passed, it eroded until it reduced to a pebble then a strong rain came and flooded it where you saw it...something like that)

However, when you are walking, you saw a watch laying infront of you. It is hard to say that it was there by natural means like the example from above since a watch is a complex device that needs to be assembled first. It cannot build on its own. Furthermore, a watch isn't suppose to be lying in a road as it is designed to be attached somewhere to be used.
No, it's you who's ended up avoiding my claim while repeated your own circular statement.
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Posted 6/2/10

digs wrote:

I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.


You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.
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Posted 6/3/10

orangeflute wrote:


digs wrote:

I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.


You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


what flaw did the creator made?
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Posted 6/3/10
Well, The Big Bang Theory makes sense, because when something becomes to dense, it explodes, (i.e. the big bang).
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Posted 6/3/10

alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


digs wrote:

I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.


You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


what flaw did the creator made?


The existence of vestigal organs amongst animals, for example, is clearly a flaw, as well as the imperfect shapes of planet, that astroid exist and that they occassionally crashes onto planets, &c. &c.
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