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Purposeful design or mindless process?
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Posted 6/3/10

orangeflute wrote:
You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


First off, how would you define perfection? Is it necessary for a perfect God to live in a universe without fault? And is a universe working in harmony considered perfect?

Secondly, I don't think an intelligent designer created diamonds. He would have designed the process through which coal becomes a diamond. Similarly, humans can now make diamonds relatively quickly without having to wait for thousands of years of natural pressure; they made the diamonds, not God.
Posted 6/3/10

Mulder8281 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:
You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


First off, how would you define perfection? Is it necessary for a perfect God to live in a universe without fault? And is a universe working in harmony considered perfect?

Secondly, I don't think an intelligent designer created diamonds. He would have designed the process through which coal becomes a diamond. Similarly, humans can now make diamonds relatively quickly without having to wait for thousands of years of natural pressure; they made the diamonds, not God.
Simple, real true perfection itself is mathematically an impossibility within the existence of a working universe like ours. And here's why.

Consider the formula to form the perfect circle needs to multiply its radius with the number π in order to construct its circumference. The whole process just can't conclude itself, simply due to the fact that the number pi is a continuous number that doesn't repeat itself. In fact, we had to cheat by rounding the number of pi down to only 3.14 just to get the answer close enough.

And when life itself can be synthetic, the idea of a perfect God is thereby a synthetic conceptualization that doesn't truly exist in this reality of ours.
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Posted 6/3/10
What started this mess we call life, hypotheses so far big bang what made the big bang was it by designed that is the question to be a big bang or not to be a bang.
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Posted 6/3/10

DomFortress wrote:


Mulder8281 wrote:

First off, how would you define perfection? Is it necessary for a perfect God to live in a universe without fault? And is a universe working in harmony considered perfect?
Simple, real true perfection itself is mathematically an impossibility within the existence of a working universe like ours. And here's why.

Consider the formula to form the perfect circle needs to multiply its radius with the number π in order to construct its circumference. The whole process just can't conclude itself, simply due to the fact that the number pi is a continuous number that doesn't repeat itself. In fact, we had to cheat by rounding the number of pi down to only 3.14 just to get the answer close enough.

And when life itself can be synthetic, the idea of a perfect God is thereby a synthetic conceptualization that doesn't truly exist in this reality of ours.


Perhaps what you say is true; my science is at best, shabby. But I've got to say, you sound quite sure with that final statement of yours - can you explain how God is a synthetic conceptualization based on Venter's synthetic creation of an organism?
Posted 6/3/10
Mindless process that we somehow perceive as purposeful design. I'll just say that. Religion has nothing to do with the design of anything more than enforcing an idea with threats of death.
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Posted 6/3/10

tarakelly wrote:

What started this mess we call life, hypotheses so far big bang what made the big bang was it by designed that is the question to be a big bang or not to be a bang.


Big bang has nothing to do with life.
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Posted 6/3/10 , edited 6/3/10
We have creatures living temperate and liquids that would kill most anything on this planet in the deep part of the sea, they adapted to the environment, somehow beat how. To sit here and what these debates’ is kind a silly but fun, I like my pun! I thought we were to play nice and not bring religion into this. Now we could bring in self , of one perception life energy where talk of just this little mud ball we call earth intelligent design would have to as far back as the big bang they may be life on Jupiter heck if I know but nobody else either. Thing set off this mess what how and until get off this place this that argument is based on the information we have as of now. I am just tiring to see it from both points open mind stuff. To make and I am not taking side. Whatever clown brought religion went outside the parameters of the discussion. People getting heated by this should state there view defend it I Guess this is all knew to me. You guys were doing this far longer than I have. Somebody going to get upset and get a moderator involved to me that a thankless job by the sounds of it.
Posted 6/4/10 , edited 6/4/10

Mulder8281 wrote:


DomFortress wrote:


Mulder8281 wrote:

First off, how would you define perfection? Is it necessary for a perfect God to live in a universe without fault? And is a universe working in harmony considered perfect?
Simple, real true perfection itself is mathematically an impossibility within the existence of a working universe like ours. And here's why.

Consider the formula to form the perfect circle needs to multiply its radius with the number π in order to construct its circumference. The whole process just can't conclude itself, simply due to the fact that the number pi is a continuous number that doesn't repeat itself. In fact, we had to cheat by rounding the number of pi down to only 3.14 just to get the answer close enough.

And when life itself can be synthetic, the idea of a perfect God is thereby a synthetic conceptualization that doesn't truly exist in this reality of ours.


Perhaps what you say is true; my science is at best, shabby. But I've got to say, you sound quite sure with that final statement of yours - can you explain how God is a synthetic conceptualization based on Venter's synthetic creation of an organism?
Just the simple fact that regardless of the existence of God being true or not, men with our many imperfections had recreate what theists with their entitlement claim to be a task that only a perfect creator could accomplish; life.

And as I reflecting upon this creative process, I realized that essentially this is the complicated lesson about real life. And just like the song title goes, "This too shall Pass".
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Posted 6/5/10

orangeflute wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


digs wrote:

I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.


You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


what flaw did the creator made?


The existence of vestigal organs amongst animals, for example, is clearly a flaw, as well as the imperfect shapes of planet, that astroid exist and that they occassionally crashes onto planets, &c. &c.


all of this according to whom? y'know, what may be bad for you is good for others vice versa.

also, what does an animals should look like then? what should be the shape of the planet? what should asteroids do then?
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Posted 6/5/10 , edited 6/5/10

alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


digs wrote:

I believe that the complexity of the universe screams the fact that it was designed by an Intelligent Designer. Plus, many planets pose problems for the big bang and currently planetary formation theories (like Mercury, Ganymede, and Uranus). There was a Divine Designer behind the universe.


You believe in an intelligent and all powerful designer, correct, and that this designer, creator, if you will, is perfect. Given his perfection and ability, why, then, does flaws exist in this world and universe? Also, diamonds are molecularly very complex- I doubt you will go on and say that this intelligent creator created diamond when we all can safely say that it was coal, tranfigured through a natural process, and so becomes a diamond.


what flaw did the creator made?


The existence of vestigal organs amongst animals, for example, is clearly a flaw, as well as the imperfect shapes of planet, that astroid exist and that they occassionally crashes onto planets, &c. &c.


all of this according to whom? y'know, what may be bad for you is good for others vice versa.

also, what does an animals should look like then? what should be the shape of the planet? what should asteroids do then?


Vestigial Structures do not harm nor benefits you, and serve no function at all. They are structures that, at one time, did serve a function for the species less evolved form, but has snice become functionless. A more scienticfic and detailed explaination:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#vestiges

Serving no function, why should god create them?
Posted 6/6/10
If you people can't use spoilers than your posts will be deleted.
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Posted 6/6/10
I have very nice not to pick on the the person that started this in fact I keeping a Open mind should have used the spoiler to remind to stay with in the parameters. Good Luck by the way finding love at your age big mistake go to college and find a friends first the rest should follow into place.just remember somthing you put down not long ago.
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Posted 6/7/10 , edited 6/7/10

orangeflute wrote:


Vestigial Structures do not harm nor benefits you, and serve no function at all. They are structures that, at one time, did serve a function for the species less evolved form, but has snice become functionless. A more scienticfic and detailed explaination:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#vestiges

Serving no function, why should god create them?


well, who are we to question the designer? do we know what is inside the mind of a God? is he like us in his way of thinking?

anyway, give me an example of this vestigial structures please.
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Posted 6/8/10

alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


Vestigial Structures do not harm nor benefits you, and serve no function at all. They are structures that, at one time, did serve a function for the species less evolved form, but has snice become functionless. A more scienticfic and detailed explaination:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#vestiges

Serving no function, why should god create them?


well, who are we to question the designer? do we know what is inside the mind of a God? is he like us in his way of thinking?

anyway, give me an example of this vestigial structures please.


Ah, the backward and unquestioning thinking of the Middle Ages. Let's arrange a randezvous and conspire to burn witches and heretics.
The Wise Wizard
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Posted 6/8/10

alupihan45 wrote:
anyway, give me an example of this vestigial structures please.

Orangeflute did, in an earlier message. I'll repeat the link:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#vestiges
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