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Did Christ commit suicide?
Posted 6/15/10
Jesus was murdered by the Romans after his own people sold him out. The horror of the incident was covered up by saying that he was sacrificed. He died only for the sins of those who believe in him. Telling people of other faiths or no faith that he died for them is unacceptable. He and his father are not everyone's redeemers.
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Posted 6/15/10

orangeflute wrote:


MorganAditi wrote:

Knowing you will die does not mean suicide, right? Though, you think that Jesus choose to come here on earth? Wasn't he born like us all, without being able to stop it? I mean; we all are on this earth and we all know we will die, but that's not what we earthlings call suicide.


You stand in the middle of a track, and you know that a train will crush you, but you do not move out of the way, is that not suicide? Thus, if God, in the form of Christ, who is one with and seperate from God the father and God the Holy Spirit, came upon the earth with knowledge of his death, and chooses to die anyways, isn't that the same situation?


That exactly what I'm trying to figure out there. Since you're question was very interesting and your statement very refreshing I though I'd see it in a very broad way(? sorry, couldn't find other words >_<). Because when I look at humans, we all are brought to earth by people who know that we will die, so that's also suicide, or not? are our parents committing suicide on us then?
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Posted 6/16/10
For those of you wish to pass the blame onto the Romans or the citizens of Judea, i invited you to look up the concept of "Blue Suicide"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_cop

Of course, this doesn't -exactly- apply. I offer it up as a counter to the specific argument that he had to die by his own hand for it to be suicide.

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Posted 6/16/10 , edited 6/16/10

alupihan45 wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:


Allhailodin wrote:


digs wrote:

I don't think it's suicide, but more like sacrifice. Would we say that someone who died for another committed suicide or rather sacrificed their life for another?


Its both, they voluntary committed suicide for the sake of another, aka sacrifice.


No. Jesus died as ordered and not by his own free will. Though he willingly obeyed

I cited the verse already where Jesus tried to ask God if he can change his will.


Ok so he willingly obeyed an order to die, still suicide, he didn't have to obey it, he could have said, "I don't think I want to die, so screw this" and decided not to, but he didn't, so its still suicide. He of his own free will decided to obey an order to die. Suicide.


ohh. too many people who wants to distorts things... you sound bias again.

you want to get technical with words, well then

Suicide (Latin suicidium, from sui caedere, "to kill oneself") is the term used for the deliberate self-destruction of a human being, by causing their body to cease life function.

In short, Jesus must be the one who will kill himself

But as everyone knows, it was the Roman Soldiers who killed him

And theology-wise, who disobeyed God and got away from it? Besides, Jesus was not afraid to die. He just requested that the suffering he must undergone be taken away. In short, kill him in one shot. He knows he will be resurrected in 3 days.


So, if I were to drown myself by binding myself to a big blouder, the blame for my death lies not in me but in the blouder's great weight?

That is basically what your argument adds up to, that Jesus, with foreknowledge of his death, choose to come upon the earth, cause a rucktion, and did nothing to hinder his impeding death and, according to the principal stated above, is not responciple for his own demise despite the great effort put into actually hastening this end.

Additionally, Jesus, according to the trinitarian theory, is one and seperate from God the father and God the Holy Ghost, the three in confederation forms the being of God, so he did have the ability to decide his fate and chose not to, thereby suicide as well.
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Posted 6/16/10
Knowing that you can save yourself and choosing not to is suicide. Its like how Ophelia purposely drowned in a river. And this is exactly what Jesus did.

If you disagree with this, you would also disagree that purposely choosing not to swim and drown instead is suicide. Please, do not be hypocritical and ignorant of yourselves.
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God defies all he preaches.

Thou shall not murder, yet many have felt his hand of death.
Be merciful, love your neighbors, but he sends people to eternal hell.
God.. in a sense.. acts like society; his decisions are not perfect and cannot fulfill everyone. He does not and can not take an action that would morally place him above us humans.
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Posted 6/17/10

orangeflute wrote:


So, if I were to drown myself by binding myself to a big blouder, the blame for my death lies not in me but in the blouder's great weight?

That is basically what your argument adds up to, that Jesus, with foreknowledge of his death, choose to come upon the earth, cause a rucktion, and did nothing to hinder his impeding death and, according to the principal stated above, is not responciple for his own demise despite the great effort put into actually hastening this end.

Additionally, Jesus, according to the trinitarian theory, is one and seperate from God the father and God the Holy Ghost, the three in confederation forms the being of God, so he did have the ability to decide his fate and chose not to, thereby suicide as well.


no that's different. You said it yourself. You binded yourself on the boulder (though you didn't mentioned if you are the one who will throw the boulder in the water). It's more like, I binded you on a boulder then threw the boulder intentionally to the water.

Jesus didn't tortured himself. Jesus didn't crucify himself.

Yes. Jesus have the choice but He is on a mission and all those things must be done to fulfill the prophecy
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Posted 6/17/10

alupihan45 wrote:

Yes. Jesus have the choice but He is on a mission and all those things must be done to fulfill the prophecy


uh... dude I think you just proved the other side of the argument.

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Posted 6/17/10 , edited 6/17/10

alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:


So, if I were to drown myself by binding myself to a big blouder, the blame for my death lies not in me but in the blouder's great weight?

That is basically what your argument adds up to, that Jesus, with foreknowledge of his death, choose to come upon the earth, cause a rucktion, and did nothing to hinder his impeding death and, according to the principal stated above, is not responciple for his own demise despite the great effort put into actually hastening this end.

Additionally, Jesus, according to the trinitarian theory, is one and seperate from God the father and God the Holy Ghost, the three in confederation forms the being of God, so he did have the ability to decide his fate and chose not to, thereby suicide as well.


no that's different. You said it yourself. You binded yourself on the boulder (though you didn't mentioned if you are the one who will throw the boulder in the water). It's more like, I binded you on a boulder then threw the boulder intentionally to the water.

Jesus didn't tortured himself. Jesus didn't crucify himself.

Yes. Jesus have the choice but He is on a mission and all those things must be done to fulfill the prophecy


But Jesus chose to come to a fate he knew would happen to him. He chose to make a rucktion and disturb the peace. He had foreknowledge of his death, and he did nothing to hinder it. Likewise, throwing a stone tied to me, I know it will drag me down, and I know it will drown me, but I did not do anything to loosen the knot, cut the strings, or otherwise. I have a choice, therefore suicide, and he had a choice, therefore it suicide.
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Posted 6/17/10

orangeflute wrote:

But Jesus chose to come to a fate he knew would happen to him. He chose to make a rucktion and disturb the peace. He had foreknowledge of his death, and he did nothing to hinder it. Likewise, throwing a stone tied to me, I know it will drag me down, and I know it will drown me, but I did not do anything to loosen the knot, cut the strings, or otherwise. I have a choice, therefore suicide, and he had a choice, therefore it suicide.


dude, Jesus tried to talk God out of it

Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.""

that was said hours before he died.

about not loosing the knot. Your case is different. If you drowned, you just drowned. To Jesus, he knows his death (like a sacrificial lamb) will atone men from their sin. In short, His death has a purpose and that purpose can be only done if he dies.

example, you are in a crashing airplane and you are with your wife and you have only one parachute. The only way your wife will live is if you let her take the chute.

anyway, i just heard from another elder that people who wishes to seek foul play will see foul play. I guess that is your case. You want to see suicide, you see suicide.

and to think that people says, "religious people make up their belief.'
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Posted 6/17/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


alupihan45 wrote:

Yes. Jesus have the choice but He is on a mission and all those things must be done to fulfill the prophecy


uh... dude I think you just proved the other side of the argument.



nah... i'm pointing out that to make the mission -reconciliation of God and mankind- a success, Jesus must die. And it was also clearly stated in the Bible that Jesus' tried to talk out God

Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.""

But they proceed with the plan and God sacrificed his first born son
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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10

alupihan45 wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

But Jesus chose to come to a fate he knew would happen to him. He chose to make a rucktion and disturb the peace. He had foreknowledge of his death, and he did nothing to hinder it. Likewise, throwing a stone tied to me, I know it will drag me down, and I know it will drown me, but I did not do anything to loosen the knot, cut the strings, or otherwise. I have a choice, therefore suicide, and he had a choice, therefore it suicide.


dude, Jesus tried to talk God out of it

Matthew 26:39 "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.""

that was said hours before he died.

about not loosing the knot. Your case is different. If you drowned, you just drowned. To Jesus, he knows his death (like a sacrificial lamb) will atone men from their sin. In short, His death has a purpose and that purpose can be only done if he dies.

example, you are in a crashing airplane and you are with your wife and you have only one parachute. The only way your wife will live is if you let her take the chute.

anyway, i just heard from another elder that people who wishes to seek foul play will see foul play. I guess that is your case. You want to see suicide, you see suicide.

and to think that people says, "religious people make up their belief.'


He had a choice, if he chose to admit that he isn't the son of God and king of Jews, acknowledge the authority of Rome and of the Priest, he would've been fine, but he chose to defy them, with knowledge that it will lead him to his death. That is still suicide, regardless of its sanctity. He chose to come to earth with knowledge of his sacrifice, which is also suicide. If I give my parachute to my wife, I am estentially commiting Suicide.
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Posted 6/18/10
To be fair, we usually call acts of self-sacrifice for a greater good "heroism" not "suicide"
Go around the military community and try and tell them that many of the holders of medals like the Britain's Victoria Cross, or the US Medal of Honour, are suicides and I think the police would rule your death one.
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Posted 6/18/10

orangeflute wrote:


He had a choice, if he chose to admit that he isn't the son of God and king of Jews, acknowledge the authority of Rome and of the Priest, he would've been fine, but he chose to defy them, with knowledge that it will lead him to his death. That is still suicide, regardless of its sanctity. He chose to come to earth with knowledge of his sacrifice, which is also suicide. If I give my parachute to my wife, I am estentially commiting Suicide.


So in other words, you want Jesus to lie? you want Jesus to abort God's will?

i think you are just trolling around

in a theological point of view, it is men who are defiant. Jesus would not come to the world if men are obedient.


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

To be fair, we usually call acts of self-sacrifice for a greater good "heroism" not "suicide"
Go around the military community and try and tell them that many of the holders of medals like the Britain's Victoria Cross, or the US Medal of Honour, are suicides and I think the police would rule your death one.


lol. tell that to orangeflute. My friends in the military would probably put a bullet on his head if they heard this especially my dad who was in the battlefield since the 80's until now
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Posted 6/18/10

TimelessLove wrote:

--
God defies all he preaches.

Thou shall not murder, yet many have felt his hand of death.
Be merciful, love your neighbors, but he sends people to eternal hell.
God.. in a sense.. acts like society; his decisions are not perfect and cannot fulfill everyone. He does not and can not take an action that would morally place him above us humans.
---



i guess you are not a church goer because if you are, you shoud have know that your claims are wrong

1. In a biblical sense, we do not own our life. It is a loan from God and it is not evil to take back what is rightfully His.
2. God was merciful enough that he sacrifice his first born so that God and men would reconcile but if the free will of men chooses to go against God, he already chose his fate as an enemy of God.

3. How do you expect a Holy God to fulfill man's evil desires?

where are you getting all this? does this came from a priest or a pastor?
Posted 6/18/10
Ha ha, Jesus did not know his fate was to die, or else the scene in the garden would have not been needed.

Also Jesus did not hasten his death, or try to be killed by the Romans for that matter, God told him he would die for humanity and so he complied with that order and went to his death.


Another thing, if you really think all Jesus did on earth was just an elaborate plan to "commit suicide" you did not read the bible well enough. He came to spread the word of God, and God, With Jesus not knowing, planned Jesus's death. You may consider that suicide if you believe in the trinity, but that would be splitting to many hairs for my liking.

If you consider sacrifices as suicide then you obviously have never made a sacrifice for some one else, it's quite beneficial for ones self-esteem. But enough with personal attacks, My point is Jesus came to earth not knowing his death, but followed orders obediently , so if that a sacrifice, for all man kind (depending on what you believe) is suicide from your perspective, then by all means, believe it
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