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Did Christ commit suicide?
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28 / M / Yuba city california
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Posted 8/15/10
he did not commit suicide he sacrficed himself for his people
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Posted 8/21/10

otaku21 wrote:

he did not commit suicide he sacrficed himself for his people


He sacrificed himself and committed suicide for his people.
He knew he was going to die but he did it anyway, that counts as suicide. ._.

[Though I will never understand how that can save us...but of course everyone was happy, less tax. :D]
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Posted 8/21/10
Suicide, Sacrifice, as long as people don't murder each other over it, what's the problem?
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Posted 8/26/10

orangeflute wrote:

Although it is a rather puerile question to ask, if Jesus and God are one, and he came upon Earth with the knowledge of his eminent death on the cross, would that not count as suicide?


If a boy is born into the world with an incurable illness, does the knowledge of his "imminent" (not eminent) death count as suicide?
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Posted 8/28/10 , edited 8/28/10

qweruiop wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

Although it is a rather puerile question to ask, if Jesus and God are one, and he came upon Earth with the knowledge of his eminent death on the cross, would that not count as suicide?


If a boy is born into the world with an incurable illness, does the knowledge of his "imminent" (not eminent) death count as suicide?


Imminent death due to disease and suicide are 2 totally different things. Suicide is seeking one's death directly or indirectly because of your choice or actions. Disease may or may not be curable now but curable later, especially if this disease is not something that resulted from not your action (born with).

By that definition wouldn't Yei argument still hold true?
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Posted 8/28/10
NO. Jesus did it for US...because he love us so much that he'd rather be in pain and save us. So, that we just got to believe in him and we would go to heaven with God.. thats all...we had it easier than the olden days people who needs to die when they sin...Now, we just gotta have faith in Jesus and trust in him...~~Praise God!
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Posted 8/28/10

joreen95 wrote:

NO. Jesus did it for US...because he love us so much that he'd rather be in pain and save us. So, that we just got to believe in him and we would go to heaven with God.. thats all...we had it easier than the olden days people who needs to die when they sin...Now, we just gotta have faith in Jesus and trust in him...~~Praise God!


So basically from what I gather from your statement, he sacrificed himself and the reason was to absolve our sins?

Since there is a cause and a religious meaning to it, does this mean that it's another form of suicide, its martydom?
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Posted 8/28/10

Northboundsnow wrote:


qweruiop wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

Although it is a rather puerile question to ask, if Jesus and God are one, and he came upon Earth with the knowledge of his eminent death on the cross, would that not count as suicide?


If a boy is born into the world with an incurable illness, does the knowledge of his "imminent" (not eminent) death count as suicide?


Imminent death due to disease and suicide are 2 totally different things. Suicide is seeking one's death directly or indirectly because of your choice or actions. Disease may or may not be curable now but curable later, especially if this disease is not something that resulted from not your action (born with).

By that definition wouldn't Yei argument still hold true?


Indeed you are absolutely correct! Suicide is totally different from death due to an incurable disease.
So the answer to my question and the original question is the same: No--it wouldn't count as suicide.

The point I was trying to make was that the knowledge of one's death does not imply that one is "seeking death directly." (as you put it)

Jesus had never sought death directly.

In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (NIV)

In any case, here is something else to think about:

Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?

Posted 8/28/10

qweruiop wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:


qweruiop wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

Although it is a rather puerile question to ask, if Jesus and God are one, and he came upon Earth with the knowledge of his eminent death on the cross, would that not count as suicide?


If a boy is born into the world with an incurable illness, does the knowledge of his "imminent" (not eminent) death count as suicide?


Imminent death due to disease and suicide are 2 totally different things. Suicide is seeking one's death directly or indirectly because of your choice or actions. Disease may or may not be curable now but curable later, especially if this disease is not something that resulted from not your action (born with).

By that definition wouldn't Yei argument still hold true?


Indeed you are absolutely correct! Suicide is totally different from death due to an incurable disease.
So the answer to my question and the original question is the same: No--it wouldn't count as suicide.

The point I was trying to make was that the knowledge of one's death does not imply that one is "seeking death directly." (as you put it)

Jesus had never sought death directly.

In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (NIV)

In any case, here is something else to think about:

Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?

All that I see is a man's intended plead bargain for his own life be spared form immediate death.
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Posted 8/29/10

qweruiop wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:


qweruiop wrote:


orangeflute wrote:

Although it is a rather puerile question to ask, if Jesus and God are one, and he came upon Earth with the knowledge of his eminent death on the cross, would that not count as suicide?


If a boy is born into the world with an incurable illness, does the knowledge of his "imminent" (not eminent) death count as suicide?


Imminent death due to disease and suicide are 2 totally different things. Suicide is seeking one's death directly or indirectly because of your choice or actions. Disease may or may not be curable now but curable later, especially if this disease is not something that resulted from not your action (born with).

By that definition wouldn't Yei argument still hold true?


Indeed you are absolutely correct! Suicide is totally different from death due to an incurable disease.
So the answer to my question and the original question is the same: No--it wouldn't count as suicide.

The point I was trying to make was that the knowledge of one's death does not imply that one is "seeking death directly." (as you put it)

Jesus had never sought death directly.

In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (NIV)

In any case, here is something else to think about:

Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?



Please read my past two posts fully.

Suicide by seeking one's own death comes not just directly but indirectly as well of ones actions. What does indirectly of ones action mean. To give an example, doctors may know that an area is plague infested but choose to go into such an area knowing full well that such an action will result in death but choose to go. Such an action can be consider suicide where the doctor will die not by owns hands but indirectly to the disease.

"Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?" - qweruiop.
Murder is the taking someone's live, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death. Does our parents gave birth to us so that we can die or so that we can live?

Where ones sacrifice oneself for a purpose or even a religious meaning, then its another form of suicide, martydom. Suicide bombers believe themselves martys because they believe their action will lead to salvation or assist greatly in their cause knowing such an action will lead to their death. To quote you directly Matthew 26:39 "In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - qweiruop. Does the statement further imply martydom?

Isaiah 53:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053&version=NIV

Good counter-arguments from other users worth reading.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32836097
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32874028

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Posted 8/29/10

Northboundsnow wrote:


Please read my past two posts fully.

Suicide by seeking one's own death comes not just directly but indirectly as well of ones actions. What does indirectly of ones action mean. To give an example, doctors may know that an area is plague infested but choose to go into such an area knowing full well that such an action will result in death but choose to go. Such an action can be consider suicide where the doctor will die not by owns hands but indirectly to the disease.

"Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?" - qweruiop.
Murder is the taking someone's live, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death. Does our parents gave birth to us so that we can die or so that we can live?

Where ones sacrifice oneself for a purpose or even a religious meaning, then its another form of suicide, martydom. Suicide bombers believe themselves martys because they believe their action will lead to salvation or assist greatly in their cause knowing such an action will lead to their death. To quote you directly Matthew 26:39 "In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - qweiruop. Does the statement further imply martydom?

Isaiah 53:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053&version=NIV

Good counter-arguments from other users worth reading.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32836097
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32874028



Exactly! I think you're starting to understanding my viewpoint now.

When you answered my question about murder you pinpointed the fact that it is the intention to kill that determines murder. Intent is the pivotal factor. When Jesus came down to the world, was his intent to commit suicide or to save us?

Remember that it was not God that killed him; instead it was mankind that put him to death on the cross.


Okay I have another question for you:

If murder is the taking of someone's life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death...

Then,

Suicide would be the taking of one's own life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill oneself, hence an unnatural death.

If this is so, then you have distinctly distinguished suicide from martyrdom, have you not?
Posted 8/29/10

qweruiop wrote:



Exactly! I think you're starting to understanding my viewpoint now.

When you answered my question about murder you pinpointed the fact that it is the intention to kill that determines murder. Intent is the pivotal factor. When Jesus came down to the world, was his intent to commit suicide or to save us?

Remember that it was not God that killed him; instead it was mankind that put him to death on the cross.


Okay I have another question for you:

If murder is the taking of someone's life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death...

Then,

Suicide would be the taking of one's own life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill oneself, hence an unnatural death.

If this is so, then you have distinctly distinguished suicide from martyrdom, have you not?
I don't think that's the case to be, unless you wanna argue that the will and subsequently the intend of God's is as natural as real human irrationalities caused by human biology:

If we believe our own lies it is much more difficult to be caught, because we are not making conscious efforts to lie. Furthermore, moral codes and laws punish the conscious lie much more stringently than the “honest” error.(citation)
Since Christianity existed long before the time of Jesus Christ, it's thereby not hard to understand how Jesus himself was a believer of his own lies.
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Posted 8/30/10 , edited 8/30/10

qweruiop wrote:


Northboundsnow wrote:


Please read my past two posts fully.

Suicide by seeking one's own death comes not just directly but indirectly as well of ones actions. What does indirectly of ones action mean. To give an example, doctors may know that an area is plague infested but choose to go into such an area knowing full well that such an action will result in death but choose to go. Such an action can be consider suicide where the doctor will die not by owns hands but indirectly to the disease.

"Everyone that is born into the world will eventually die. Does that make our parents murderers for bringing us into the world with the knowledge of our inevitably impending deaths?" - qweruiop.
Murder is the taking someone's live, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death. Does our parents gave birth to us so that we can die or so that we can live?

Where ones sacrifice oneself for a purpose or even a religious meaning, then its another form of suicide, martydom. Suicide bombers believe themselves martys because they believe their action will lead to salvation or assist greatly in their cause knowing such an action will lead to their death. To quote you directly Matthew 26:39 "In fact if you've read the bible you will know that Jesus pleaded with God saying: "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." - qweiruop. Does the statement further imply martydom?

Isaiah 53:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2053&version=NIV

Good counter-arguments from other users worth reading.
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32836097
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-639574/did-christ-commit-suicide?pg=3#32874028



Exactly! I think you're starting to understanding my viewpoint now.

When you answered my question about murder you pinpointed the fact that it is the intention to kill that determines murder. Intent is the pivotal factor. When Jesus came down to the world, was his intent to commit suicide or to save us?

Remember that it was not God that killed him; instead it was mankind that put him to death on the cross.


Okay I have another question for you:

If murder is the taking of someone's life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill, hence an unnatural death...

Then,

Suicide would be the taking of one's own life, without justification or reason, with the intention to kill oneself, hence an unnatural death.

If this is so, then you have distinctly distinguished suicide from martyrdom, have you not?


I am not sure how you can relate murder and suicide as the same thing. They are both completely different thing and if you read past post or look it up in any dictionary (although definition of murder may vary depending on country), murder and suicide are different.

Murder is the act of killing another person .... no justification, with intent, etc, etc.
Suicide is the act of killing oneself ... directly or indirectly of ones action , with or without intent, etc, etc.

now if we look at martyrdom
Martyrdom the act of sacrificing oneself for a purpose, eg salvation, religious, liberation.

9-11 terrorists choose to hijack planes to send a message that they were enemies of America. They choose to kill themselves together with their plane passengers as well as many other innocent (WTC).
In the eyes of the terrorists, they were martyrs, serving a greater purpose. In the eyes of the world, they were SUICIDE bombers.
In this case the terrorists were both, murderers and suiciders!

You explain above that martyrdom is different from suicide as suicide is the act of killing oneself without justification or reason, then how can you explain mercy killing, martyr suicide by duty such as Japanese kamikaze pilots of WW2 who chose to die for their country or Japanese samurai who commit seppuku. How about the action of famous slained Philippines opposition leader Ninoy who choose to return back to Philippines, even though he knew it was going to his death. Or even great civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr?

Act of killing oneself whether directly or indirectly is suicide even if there is a purpose or greater meaning behind it

PS: Edited to included this little side-note, if i remember my facts correctly, interestingly enough Judaism regards suicide as murder of oneself.
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Posted 8/31/10
Jesus and God are one., Jesus is God only in human flesh. They are the same. I wouldn't call it suicide, it was more of a sacrafice.
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Posted 8/31/10

popcornpuffs wrote:

Jesus and God are one., Jesus is God only in human flesh. They are the same. I wouldn't call it suicide, it was more of a sacrafice.


Suicide -> Self-destruction, -> martyrs -> sacrifice

Suicide is sacrificing yourself directly (by your own hands, eg, hang yourself) or indirectly (or others eg. Charging the whole Nazi army with just a BB gun) from your actions. It does not matter whether you do it for kicks or a free pass to hell or for a greater religious purpose.

And this idea of Lord Jesus as God in human flesh, why is it that some Christians dispute this, I remember reading from a post right here in CR from a Christian who say that Lord Jesus is not God? Why the disparity? Why does other religion, Judaism or Islam say that 'Any man who claims himself to be God is lying'. Wasn't Lord Jesus a Jew, why would he claim himself or others claim him as God.

I can't remember how many times i keep reiterating self-sacrifice even for sake of martyrdom is still suicide and people keep repeating it was sacrifice.

PS: I offer my apologies for anyone who may be offended by this but if you look up or read up on Christian history, during the early years of Church, the issue of martyrdom and suicide was tackled at lengths. Where the sacrifice of Lord Jesus was defined to be given leeway other martyrs were actually define as suicides. It was only later that this list besides Lord Jesus was expanded for saints.
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