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Posted 6/19/10 , edited 6/19/10

zaldar wrote:
Libraries RENT media and some of us to think they hurt more than help. Used book stores would be a much better way of going.
I could respond to this coldly and mean. I won't. I think your comment speaks for itself. I do not think libraries are harmful to the state of society nor, as I assume the majority of your meaning was directed, harmful to the state of supporting creators either.

Anyone can say every single time someone accesses content- be it a book, movie, show, etc, through legitimate means especially like a library, built for the public good, that the creator "lost" money.

Well- do you honestly expect everyone to show sudden interest in something they've never seen or heard of? This is why libraries exist- to spread knowledge of things written of within, to further knowledge for all equally as they are open to all, and to get people interested.

How would you ever consider buying random works of an author you know nothing of, nor if they are any good? Ask someone who knows? How do you think they came to know- they read about them! How do you think people get interest in buying a movie on DVD? They see it somewhere, or heard about it. At some level of society, information MUST be free, or nothing would develop. This is why libraries exist. The DVDs and other media now within many of them were bought with public money, belonging to everyone, so they could all watch it. It's like everyone pitching in to buy a grill that they can collectively use.

In short, not every single action must exist solely for profit. That is a sad way to think, I feel. What of doing something for notoriety? Creating to win a good reputation? To improve one's stature? To get people interested in something you care about?

Granted- most anime downloading doesn't fit this paradigm. But the concept applies in that EXPOSURE of something raises the interest of the market, creating demand. THAT is economics. Give away free sausage, and people are more inclined to buy some because they've experienced your sausage. They know if it's good or bad.

A world where everyone only acts for profit is a world where all knowledge is a pay-per-view research paper, and a world derift of goodwill. I'm not saying everything must be free- and if you want to twist my statement "information wants to be free" into this part- I didn't say it MUST be. I said "wants to". Knowledge is like water- it seeks it's own level. It can be made not to, by freezing it (think paywalls on everything), but if left alone, it will level (be viewable to all by nature of it being knowledge- it is meant to be known to someone).

And yes, I realize how crafty I was there, and how close that statement comes to making me sound elitist or stretching the meaning of truth. I still fundamentally believe that statement, though- and that's where many of us differ- it comes down to pure, raw opinion there- but I argue that's really the truth of knowledge.


zaldar wrote:
Some things are considered public domain. Anime is not one of them. Yes only recently have we begun to actually protect new work and give people ample compensation for it, but that only means only recently have we done things correctly.

... As for downloading music no I actually don't, nor do I watch things that have been copyrighted on you-tube.
Anime is not public domain unless it is old enough in Japan. Agreed.

The whole "I don't view copyrighted work"- bull. Everyone who uses the Internet does- inevitably, you've viewed something that was copyrighted, unknowingly- there's simply too much copyrighted media on the Internet to have NOT seen any accidentally, youtube or not. The whole point is that it IS unavoidable- and as such, overbearing copyright laws do not account for this. That is the problem. And for that matter, we aren't even counting the stuff that is copyright and marked as such on places like youtube- they are posted by their owners, like movie trailers, and still meant to be viewed by the public who choose to- it's just that they have their property marked as copyrighted, for them to choose to let people view it- not postable by others. Copyright does not equal no access.

Let me make something else very clear: I agree with Azmona on this:

Azmona wrote:
[can we deal without] Copyright, no. That I agree with to an extent. Anti-privacy is just dumb. Anti-finance? No, it just needs a major overhaul with some responsible non-greedy people.


I don't think everything on Earth must be free (and neither do socialist countries, for that matter- whomever threw in the whole "communist & socialist" slur, real socialists if anything say everyone pays equally for something accessable by all- see Nordic healthcare) - money is important. Protecting real intellectual property for a time is important- it's modern "mickey mouse" and "sherlock holmes" copyright law I object to- near indefinite or ridiculous off-limits timelines for things. Sherlock Holmes was written in the 1900s for godsake- but is STILL under copyright, and being fought over to this day for the rights! THAT is the kind of stupidity I object to.


zaldar wrote:
Legally, and morally your position is wrong. You want something you pay for it. You don't pay for it, you don't get it. True for housing, true for food, true for health care and certainly true for entertainment.


Legally? That can be argued- law is about it's interpretation. I give you that- I can very easily be wrong under specific laws as they are enforced, the same laws that prosecute individuals for things that are provided for under those same laws' free-use provisions. Parts of these laws are enforced, many parts ignored by those doing the selective persecuting. Don't forget that. Law and Justice are not equal no matter how much you want them to be.

Morally? Morals are not absolutes in law or anything else. Morals belong to individuals, not people, and certainly not societies, unless they are theocracies and therein enshrined by the laws of theocracies. The very definition of theocracy is akin to government through moral enforcement. No one has the right where I live, in the USA, to enforce theocratical law on anyone. I don't bow before someone else's morals unless I find it appropriate to do so. Neither does anyone else here. You'd get a lot of agreement with people living in places like Iran, however- they use theocracy. Maybe you're Iranian? I don't mean that as an insult- the true borderless nature of the Internet could very well mean you are Iranian, and I wouldn't know it. The chances are low though- they'd be arbitrarily blocking the hell out of you here!

Also-

"true for housing"- ever hear of Habitat for Humanity, or homeless shelters, or simply building a hut from what's around you, like half the world does?

"true for food"- ever hear of the red cross? Homeless shelters (again), food drives, and friggin' CHARITY? Jesus. In fact, him too- he was about charity. I'm not even religious, by choice, and even I know better.

I think I'm done with you for now. I can go on and on, but I don't feel it would be productive- it would devolve into a semantics discussion, arguing over the meaning of the very words we used.


Azmona wrote:
-You can doubt my claim all you want in your own little world. As I started above, those firewalls & blocks are their govt.'s way of control. -Tested? It's tested every time I go and RP. I play with people in the UK, US, Romania and many other places in the world without any problems. Look at all the WoW players around the world. Really now?


Exactly- spot on. Access to the Internet is through servers and equipment locally hosted, and as such, subject to local laws- but the Internet itself is not. The Internet as a whole is the collective space of things here. You cannot regulate the entire Internet unless you are ICANN- and they can only regulate the indexing of it in a sense.

No one "controls" the Internet. It thus has no region- arguably the one thing almost anyone will agree is the ideal thing about it- it frees mankind to learn and explore beyond their own locked regional realities. DVDs can be region locked- the Internet can't. And if you buy a DVD player from many overseas countries, DVDs are effectively not region locked. Look up DRM- that's all region locking is. An artificial restriction to drive regional sales. That, I can see. Thing is, it doesn't account for international customers who even legitimately pay. And don't someone tell me "you know you can change your player's region?"- I know I can. But that is limited and arbitrary too- the number of times you can do so is set by a factory.


Azmona wrote:
-I never said CR was subbing it, minor details missed can be important.. Quality>Quantity basic principle of Quality Assurance, sadly money gets in the way & most places don't properly hold it up. Have you ever been to the DB site? They've usually done 2-3 shows at time with excellent quality which says it's not impossible for Viz to do the same.


Again, exactly! They aren't just subbing 1 series a week- they are doing several! The fact that they can still retain that kind of quality higher than Viz, a professional, established company with a long record of bringing the USA great series, and whom I respect as well, is disheartening. Viz is doing something wrong- they need either more or better translators, and to stop using the damn present passive form of English for the majority of their translations. It gets annoying quick. And insistantly using that form means they bend the meaning a bit away from what is actually said often enough. It's irritating.


aPromethean wrote:

Finally, wrt this region aspect, CR didn't bring this to the table. It's always been there. You just see it glaring in front of you because CR brought broad legal access to the content; however, that does not make it CR's fault. If you have a problem with it, write to the companies of the media that's limiting viewership, and the governments supporting the laws that back it....and I somehow doubt you (or anyone else here blaming CR wholesale) have done this--it's easier to complain ineffectively on an Internet board about how things are wrong, and to blame a site like CR for playing by the book, than to actually have the guts to pick the fight with the real muscle. CR is the one that would have to deal with the DMCA request, the lawyers, the servers being confiscated if it came to that. You don't.


I agree with this completely. People may wonder why, since your post's tone is often contrary to my own tones. It's because, surprise- I can agree with someone when they are right- you are dead on here, CR has to deal with the unfortunate realities individuals can often avoid. Abusive DMCA requests have to be followed or fought when your site is the one receiving them. Different realities exist when you are a distributor- that is why region locking exists. It shouldn't exist, but that is why it does- local realities restrict things globally.


pooh65 wrote:


Azmona wrote:

Zaldar dear the internet is regionless, I can go to the site I RP on anywhere in the world. "Regions" used by Crunchyroll and other places are simply a form of control, there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." Get it right

*


I have to go with Zaldar on this since your IP changes depending on where your at, which is essentially your region. And yes, regions are, like you said, a way of control. With DVDs, it's a way to keep people from importing something no one has a license to distribute in another region. Though, I understand why people are upset, but it's not CR's fault. They can't get the rights to show in all countries without paying even more, so they have to choose those which are more profitable. Without profit, they can't stay online.

Companies try their hardest to please fans, but they can't make everyone happy.


Again- agreed- regions are a way of control. That doesn't mean they should be used as such. Region locking does not mesh with the reality of the regionless Internet. Thus, conflict.


Whew! There are some very good points made on here, by very intelligent people. Some not so informed opinions too, from some of the same people. Hell, I've been guilty of that myself before- I'm sure everyone has.

This is how things should be done- not with random swearing, but organized debate. This is actually productive and enlightening.

EDIT: Finally, stuff like this is why I hate stupid copyright laws:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/06/19/1239233/German-Publishers-Want-Monopoly-On-Sentences?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29

"There has grown up in the minds of certain groups in this country the notion that because a man or corporation has made a profit out of the public for a number of years, the government and the courts are charged with the duty of guaranteeing such profit in the future, even in the face of changing circumstances and contrary to the public interest. This strange doctrine is not supported by statute nor common law. Neither individuals nor corporations have any right to come into court and ask that the clock of history be stopped, or turned back."
-Life-Line by Robert A. Heinlein (1939)
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I doubt your claim. Mainland China often has firewalls. Iran has blocks everywhere. Most people don't realize many EU countries have filters and blocks. Australia also blocks and filters.

I also truly doubt you have tested the validity of your own claim to any reasonable extent. Maybe you live in a free country and visit similarly free countries, and assume it's that way worldwide. It's not.

-You can doubt my claim all you want in your own little world. As I started above, those firewalls & blocks are their govt.'s way of control. -


You're the one whose initial post in this thread was so great that you stormed off, so you deserve the tone. Glad to see you haven't changed with the belittling "little world" slight.

As to the "stated above," you might want to recall you said that in the same post your replying to. You're only adding this rather substantial qualifier now, so throwing my quote with your correcting reply in there doesn't make sense when my comment came prior to your reply.


Tested? It's tested every time I go and RP. I play with people in the UK, US, Romania and many other places in the world without any problems. Look at all the WoW players around the world. Really now?


You continue to qualify. I'm not talking about problems. I'm talking about region locking and comparing it to technological, government control, and self-walling, whether sociological or economic or otherwise. It's strange you continue to use your ability to connect to a region as an indication or evidence that that entire region must be unwalled or unproblematic or lack regioning. It's not the case.

As to "really now," absolutely. Also goes to the point that I don't think you've tested this actually geographically being IN many other countries connecting outward to sites. You didn't care to understand the point that I wasn't discussing the ability to connect to people who've already made a connection. I'm talking about people who want to make a connection who are unable to; they have Internet access, but due to fragmentation of networks, they don't connect to the whole but to a subset. Anyone whose used a torrent sees this, anyone who used to IRC knows this as well.


-I'm not going to even bother with your second paragraph, clearly you missed the point on it.


I guess I have to break it down further, since I thought you knew what your own argument was.

You wrote 'there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." ' I'm challenging your claim as incorrect. You claim this after simply saying connecting to RP sites is evidence that the Internet is "ends or changes here" (repeated in your followup reply). iow, you are able to connect to people from diverse countries.

My claim is that you are able to connect to people with good connections that are good to your network. You are unaware of bad networks implicitly; they don't connect to you. That's what I mean by you haven't tested this outside of countries with good connections. The internet is indeed walled off in many areas, government, technological, or otherwise. There are implicit "regions." That's counter to your claim "Your Internet ends or changes here." You see YOUR Internet. It does change, and it does end.

You just don't acknowledge it, because you are unware, don't cared, or doesn't affect you. Again, your idea of the ideal isn't what happens in actuality.



You are aware of the increase in the quality of the anime these past 10 years right?

You don't understand economics (who does). But one thing that is pretty consistent with economies is that more money spills over. You can complain all you want about money not being handed over, and in certain situations, that may be the case. But usually what happens is that better and more anime is produced.

Sure, the split of the money may not be to your liking, but the more money the distributor/copyright holder/artist/network/broadcaster makes, the more they are likely to invest in the next series, or to continue the series. I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lot of anime series budgets were increased circa 2005 because of the anime craze that was going on in the US. They were considering the income from a wider distribution. Nowadays, any of the top viewed anime is written and designed with some consideration of the US and worldwide market, including the budget and region differences. That's not opinion. That's fact, stated by anime creators themselves in interviews.

-Yes and No. In some areas quality has increased, in others it's decreased. A good example of that decrease is, not all anime is meant for children, but many companies pick one up, dumb it down, and aim it at a younger audience.


We'll agree to disagree I suppose. To me, the last 10 years have been astonishing compared to what was being put out then and now. The only real complaint I've seen is less hand drawn work, the rest from the storytelling, the nationalism, the animation, the length of the series, the rewarding of good series, is substantial.


-Plenty of people understand economics we wouldn't be where we are at today without them.


I guess I'll have to accept that my jest with clarifying and self-including self-derogatory parenthesis was pathetic and missed.


-Or to line their own pocket, it would be nice if many companies fully invested in their projects but the majority do not.


Define fully invested. Fully invested to me means taking profits and rolling it back into (good) product. At most, incomes are paid. Still, that's nearly impossible given the initial investment and any deserved reward based payouts. If this is the complaint against CR and for continued free DB, it seems strange that the reason Bleach anime exists is because of the initial Japanese interest and investment, starting from the artist all the way to the production of the anime itself. Sorry if I somehow doubt that the DB supporters also invested in Bleach directly during or even after it's production.


-If it was a fact then they would release an anime all over the world in some glorious manner that everyone can access unobstructed untainted high quality that everyone can understand & enjoy. Is that happening? No I don't believe it is....nice dream though. Really.


It won't happen because even the potential audience doesn't want it to happen. Chicken, egg. If you're watching free Bleach, how much incentive is there to release old Bleach? It's one of the reasons CR likely had feedback on picking up Bleach, to show it was economically viable despite the piracy.




Again, not to be insulting, but given this is the counter you chose to offer up to what you self-described as a weak argument, what's that say about you in turn?

btw, the whole information wants to be free--it isn't an ideal. It's more a law. It simply is a descriptive statement of what happens. It's based on the pressure put on information based on the "value" of the information--the more desire for it, the more likely it gets revealed. It doesnt't mean everything is free or everything should be free. Unfortunately, it's been adopted by people who want to back some ideal of theirs (no regions, no copyright, open banking, anti-financial, anti-privacy). It's not about that--it's simply a factual statement of how things work, what happens. There is no additional value beyond that even if you want to believe otherwise.


-It says absolutely nothing which was the point. I didn't need to put myself on a pedestal and declare that others are below me.


To which paragraph are you addressing? The btw was directed in general regarding the comment 'information wants to be free' that was going on earlier in the thread. Hence the btw. The 'you' was general. I don't recall you ever addressing the whole info-free aspect in this entire thread on any of your posts. Did you? If not, why would you be confused about this, why'd you even be responding, since you'd simply have to point out you didn't make such a comment.

Instead, you addressed it. To your addressment, the point that was made was that some people got it, some people didn't, which is beyond what the actual saying means. Still, your agreement is nice ("It says absolutely nothing which was the point.") since we've otherwised disagreed on everything else you had posted to this point.

Where in the btw did I put myself on a pedestal, or put someone down? Not sure where I stated others were below me in that btw paragraph anywhere. Even in my counter (earlier paragraph/sentence), I didn't put myself on a pedestal. I simply applied your attack/criticism of someone else back upon you--your own criticism reflecting on your comeback. If that's putting someone up on or below a pedestal, then you were doing so as well.

On the whole pedestal thing, I'll throw a stone back--didn't you write ""Nice one with the Socialism and Communism remark, only a person with a weak argument would need to bring those in. Instead of bringing you down, you jumped off the cliff on your own. *Thumbs Up!*" Seems you're the one that went attack mode first, given I hadn't even ever entered a CR thread prior to my reply to you.


The whole "I'm better than you" arguement is pretty old, you'd think people would have learned by now.


(See definition of my handle/userid/nick.)

Applying your own criticism of another and seeing how it fares against your own attack isn't anywhere close to saying I'm better than you.

And again, weren't you the one pointing out weak arguments, while offering little substance beyond the simple claim that something was weak?

So yeah, I agree with you, except i didn't use the argument you described here back at you. To address it anyways, do I think you're mistaken and a little confused. Yeah. But that's okay. We all are in some way (since I failed before, I'll point out that was a little jest). I *am* better than you. You are better than me. It's implicit in our differences and our understanding of the same issues, both in discussion/argument, as well as *who* we are. I can probably kick your ass in really long, boring, quoting posts. You can probably beat me in person by simply pointing at me and making me look like an idiot just by doing that. What's the big deal? You're afraid someone is better than you? They probably are. And you right back at them. You advocate against regioning. I say it's implicit. Ideal. Practicality. I still think I'm right, you think you are.


-I'll agree to disagree, could we live without regions? Ya sure. Deal with open banking? Maybe? Copyright, no. That I agree with to an extent. Anti-privacy is just dumb. Anti-finance? No, it just needs a major overhaul with some responsible non-greedy people.


My point is that even without regions, there is regioning occuring in terms of the Internet. Aside from copyright and contractual law, technology, access, bandwidth, exchange rate, permission/encryption control, government, economics, social tiering, cliques, etc. etc.

As to the responsible non-greedy people, that doesn't include CR or DB. I point out both parties, since that was in your initial post (the one you stormed off). CR for taking in funds. DB for offering someone else's product up without compensation getting back from the downloaders. For all the people (that may or may not include you) that have taken sides in this, neither have clean hands if the whole "responsible non-greedy" is your standard, so you should be slamming both, not attacking one or the other (your intial post where you stormed off).

And I've seen a responsible, non-greedy person. Ever.

As to what said I choose in the CR and DB issue, I acknowledge the whole blackmarket economy often leads to a hugely viable legal economy of the same or similar goods. In this situation (Bleach anime) and at this time (CR picking up Bleach), I simply choose the legal one, since CR picking up and providing Bleach is an indicator that transition/time from underground or blackmarket to legal and legitimate has already occurred. Regions CR has seemed to fail in, they can stand on their own two feet and complain to CR, and I hope they do, but I also hope they do so equally to everyone else along the chain. However, in reading the many CR/DB posts here, the DB folks seem to really HATE CR for picking up Bleach. The differences in cause and consequence don't matter much to them.

(This reply was not proofread or checked for the possibility of adequate good natured sanity or opportunites in reduction of circular arguments.)
pooh65 
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Well, it seems the post are getting longer, so I think I will stop reading. But I do have to thanks those who actually used real reasoning for their opinions instead of just calling people names. If only every forum thread could end up like this.
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I think I speak for EVERYONE HERE that if Crunchyroll suggested to viz that to hire on DB to sub Bleach and maybe a few other anime, A hell of a lot more people would be willing to pay the monthly fee. I know I would be. That way, it stays legal, Subs are trusted and known to be better quality, and we can stop this whole DB>CR flame war because it would all be from DB released through CR. Come on people. we aren't in elementary anymore (hopefully). There's no need to argue over something we love so much

If there were some members from the CR staff observing this thread, I hope that they take this into consideration. It would make them a hell of a lot more money, because let's face it, that's all they want. Otherwise they wouldn't have bought the rights to Bleach in the first place
zaldar 
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Azmona wrote:

Zaldar dear the internet is regionless, I can go to the site I RP on anywhere in the world. "Regions" used by Crunchyroll and other places are simply a form of control, there is no "Your Internet ends or changes here." Get it right

Now..
Where exactly does it say Crunchyroll is completely supporting the artists hmm? I don't believe it does, I'm guessing the artists get the least out of all this. The majority of profits generally go to the license holders, and what do license holders love to do? Milk people for money! I believe if the artists were really interested in everything that you spewed, that they would hire some proper subbers like DB and then put episodes out in a different manner. Then again, the artists likely don't even have a say.

Nice one with the Socialism and Communism remark, only a person with a weak argument would need to bring those in. Instead of bringing you down, you jumped off the cliff on your own. *Thumbs Up!*


No it is not regionless and like I said about the artists for songs they have the right to sell their stuff on their own if they like. The liscence holders may get most of the money but that is between the liscence holders and the artists. The money the artists gets comes from the liscence holders who are taking the chance on the artists. If you steal it, you are supporting no one. Crunchyroll is supporting the artists by supporting liscence holders. No the internet doesn't end but the internet is NOT an anarchical zone without government control...thank God. Anarchy is always wrong. As for communism and socialism I don't see how that is jumping off a cliff, think so if you like. Arguing over economic and governmental systems is however always a valid thing to do. Only someone who can't argue in a logical way against capitalism would say that bringing it in is in and off itself weak.

The liscence holders are in things for money sure...um but so what? The artists are to, unless you forget most people who do anything are in some part in it for money. Nothing wrong with that, rewarding people is how we get them to do things. It isn't like the people who work on bleach do it for love of art, just like I don't do science only for love of science.
zaldar 
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To Namban of course I have heard of the charity you mention....however an argument can be made that charity does more harm than good in the end. See objectivism (Ann Rand...) or "give a man a fish feed him for a day, teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime". Also I do not agree morals are objective. I have the right to the work of my own hand and mind that is TRUTH and not objective. My relations and anyone I sell it to has a right to it for all time. Yes sherlock holmes is still under copyright it should be, as should the works of Disney be. No a corporation should not be protected from NEW technologies (the true meaning of the quote you used...I own henliens works all most all of them and he was a VERY big capitalist see starship troopers) but they have the right to the technologies they make FOREVER.
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Well, I would've said nothing about CR picking up and DB dropping Bleach if I had been able to watch it here. I am not.
Yes, the subs of DB are extremely good. The timing was always perfect, there are TL notes for things not easily understood by simply translating them and the opening/ending are subbed as well (hell I want to know what they sing there...)

But since I cannot watch Bleach here because of some licensing crap, I can only tell you one thing CR: Thanks for nothing and cutting me off of a quality source for subs.
If you are going at it at least do your shit properly!
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aPromethean wrote:
My point is that even without regions, there is regioning occuring in terms of the Internet. Aside from copyright and contractual law, technology, access, bandwidth, exchange rate, permission/encryption control, government, economics, social tiering, cliques, etc. etc.


The initial problem here is: you pay the same money and get less, depending from where you log in.
The membership class system does not indicate the region restrictions.
I don't care for copyright discussions here. I want fairness in this service.

And just my two or three Animes a week and that's it. Just let people pay by subscribing each Anime.

Have fun
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pooh65 wrote:

Well, it seems the post are getting longer, so I think I will stop reading. [...] If only every forum thread could end up like this.


It got so good it drove people away.


wishi42 wrote:


aPromethean wrote:
My point is that even without regions, there is regioning occuring in terms of the Internet. Aside from copyright and contractual law, technology, access, bandwidth, exchange rate, permission/encryption control, government, economics, social tiering, cliques, etc. etc.


The initial problem here is: you pay the same money and get less, depending from where you log in.
The membership class system does not indicate the region restrictions.
I don't care for copyright discussions here. I want fairness in this service.

And just my two or three Animes a week and that's it. Just let people pay by subscribing each Anime.

Have fun ;)


Hmmm...nice point. Also, simple, obvious, straightforward solution.

I'd agree wholeheartedly esp. if this was an option in addition to the fixed rate. There's a good number of anime I've watched here that I had no initial interest in, read the summary and thought would be utterly useless to what I like, and watched it because I could and got hooked. Some I now would rank as my favorite anime. The one plan fits all is nice for browsing. Also, I think CR may do this to reduce inventory/billing questions (and the staff and credit card refunds that would ensue).

CR sort of tried this half-heartedly before, maybe. With their recently discontinued download service. They noted in a faq that it wasn't popular, but that's probably because each download relative to a membership was rather expensive (something like $1.95 per ep if I recall), there was no bulk pricing (couldn't download a season and get a discount, so a 25 ep season cost more than a typical DVD season set), and it was only on a select number of anime (dependent on what the copyright holder wanted). However, those limitations also mean that your solution wasn't fully tested/applied whatsoever.

I guess the only minor criticisms I would point out is on the copyright and fairness issue. Copyright is implicit in the discussion because that's why the work in many ways might even exist. At the same time, if it (your solution) caught on, it would be more fair in some ways, and more money made. But putting that aside, fairness is strangely not something that CR can employ and remain competitive in the current environment. Would you rather an anime be pulled for everyone or not be made available to others because it can't be shown in one or a few other locations? I realize that's not what you are suggesting at all--what I'm trying to get at (and doing an awful job) is the point that CR seems to bring what they can to the table to wherever they can. It's not fair within their service as you point out....

...but doing it this way gets more anime out there maximally. If fairness was applied, there' d be less anime. I tend to think that making more anime available legally drives more and more anime to a region. Yours is based on a lowest common denominator, which I've always liked those arguments, but they never seem to work in reality. CR's approach seems to be to bring what they can....

...but that may be an assumption too. it would be nice to know how much pressure CR brings to regions that aren't included. As regioning is the way the system is set up now (due law, rights, service...maybe even whim(joke)), does the regions CR carries influence the companies to expand their works to more and more regions? Or is it setting up a "haves" and "don't haves", where only regions that have the paying memberships get stuff? (There was an earlier post (maybe in an another thread) that observed that once CR gets regioning for a particular anime, it's rare to see that anime get permission to more regions than what was initially announced. I could be butchering that post/observation though.) What have people seen? I see on a lot of other threads people pointing the differences out (like the CR Deal fo the Day where they didn't ship worldwide but CR seemed willing to change that). Does this apply to the anime?

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zaldar wrote:

To Namban of course I have heard of the charity you mention....however an argument can be made that charity does more harm than good in the end. See objectivism (Ann Rand...) or "give a man a fish feed him for a day, teach a man to fish feed him for a lifetime". Also I do not agree morals are objective. I have the right to the work of my own hand and mind that is TRUTH and not objective. My relations and anyone I sell it to has a right to it for all time. Yes sherlock holmes is still under copyright it should be, as should the works of Disney be. No a corporation should not be protected from NEW technologies (the true meaning of the quote you used...I own henliens works all most all of them and he was a VERY big capitalist see starship troopers) but they have the right to the technologies they make FOREVER.


To a point I do agree with your opinion. However, there should be limits:
http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/09/16/westwoods_turbine_inc_named_in_patent_infringement_lawsuit/

This is a clear example of abuse of copyright laws.
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Posted 6/20/10 , edited 6/20/10

zaldar wrote:
Yes sherlock holmes is still under copyright it should be, as should the works of Disney be.

I strongly disagree. Copyright was not created to provide continual residual income, it was created to help encourage innovation. For the United States, at least, this is written into the Constitution itself.

Early 20th century U.S. copyright law (1909) provided for a 28 year term, with another 28 year term renewal. If this shorter term of renewal was discouraging persons and companies from creating new works, there should have been an explosion of new works after the term was changed, but there was not.

For example, do you really think fewer companies would create anime if their copyright expired in 2066 instead of 2105? Would authors cut back on the number of books they write, and production companies on the number of films and TV shows they produce? In fact, I recall a study that stated the best balance between encouraging new works and fostering a rich public domain would be as short as 11 years.

If one wants to argue the cost of creating new content as a factor, then one might as well admit current copyrights are inequitable. After all, a blog post or newspaper editorial that take an hour or less to write get the same protection as a blockbuster that costs $150 million to create.

Further, if cost of creation was a factor, many patents should be even longer than copyrights. A typical drug can cost $800 million to bring to market, but is only protected for a fraction of the length of a copyright. Yet, drug companies certainly aren't discouraged from bringing new drugs to market, even with the much greater financial risks they face vs. a studio producing a big budget film.

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Posted 6/21/10 , edited 6/21/10

rice238 wrote:


doonster wrote:


Cyberpirate wrote:


NekoKari wrote:
Explain to me how this makes any difference?
Point is, shitty subs. I'm sorry that I wasn't specific enough for you.


Alright,n ow explain to me. What exactly do you mean by shitty subs? As far as I know is Viz accurate with their translations, it is a professional company after all. Now, if you can backup your claim, I'll accept it.



i think she means that they are mainly not correct.....
When you are translating a language you cant just do a streight translation you need to go deeper into it and make sure that what you are writing makes sence.....

some of the subbing does not make sence. from my own japanise translations altho i am a beginer even i would translate them differently.
Some parts of it are just too long winded i mean its all prevailing to use big words and all.... but some times they are just not needed...
this is how alot of people translare engish and chinese when i was a teacher over their for 4 years (oral english only to kindergarten) but from watching the other teachers and my chinese assistant teachers they are always the first to grab the crappy electronic dictionary with Thesaurs and choose the biggest word in the hope that it will make it better.......

and as a few posts before you wanted some evidence so here u are




From those images... The image quality appear to be exactly the same. The non-streamed one is just zoomed out which makes it appear to be more crisp. Try zooming in and you'll have the exact same picture.

Translation-wise. Viz has a history of using passive tense in their sentence structure. I don't blame them as the target demographic was originally young boys.

Conclusion: Your "evidence" is purely subjective. Go away fanboy.



lol fanboy i dont think so.... the evidence i provided before was for subtitles. not video quality i never zoomed out the video anyway thats just how windows sized it when i put the two side by side for subtitle evidence........that i disagree with.. so i dont see what your problem is all im trying to put out there is the fact that the subtitles are not good as admitted by the crunchyroll team....
so how about insted of being rude to people for no good reason. how about we have a normal discussion instead of starting the im mr big man behind a computer screen argument because there is enough of it in this thread alone without having to add more to it.

as for quality and subtitles

i got a reply from the support team....


Hello Aaron,

We're sorry to hear that you have been experiencing problems with viewing our videos. In order for us to help you with these issues, please tell us what specific version of Mozilla Firefox you are using as well as the version of Adobe Flash you have installed. If you are using Firefox Beta 3.6.4 build6 or higher, our videos will not work. Until the issue can be resolved, you will need to use a different browser or install the latest stable release of Firefox.

As for the video quality of Bleach, regardless of what it is broadcast in, it is produced in 540P and we receive a 720P post-production upscale from the studio. So while it isn't true 720P it is much better quality than our 480P versions. Though if you don't like the 720P version, you can always stick with the 480P one.

As for the subtitles, these are provided by VIZ Media but we have submitted some suggestions to them so that they can potentially improve the subtitles. Though, there are licensing restrictions on providing translations for the opening and ending theme songs so those will not be provided on our site.

For further information on the subject, please refer to our FAQ:
http://www.crunchyroll.com/forumtopic-637563/crunchyroll-dattebayo-viz-and-you/

Regards,
~BasouKazuma

Abbas Jaffery
Community Support Manager
Crunchyroll, Inc.
BasouKazuma@crunchyroll.com
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Posted 6/21/10 , edited 6/21/10

Namban wrote:


doonster wrote:

When you are translating a language you cant just do a streight translation you need to go deeper into it and make sure that what you are writing makes sence.....

some of the subbing does not make sence. from my own japanise translations altho i am a beginer even i would translate them differently.
Some parts of it are just too long winded i mean its all prevailing to use big words and all.... but some times they are just not needed...
this is how alot of people translare engish and chinese when i was a teacher over their for 4 years (oral english only to kindergarten) but from watching the other teachers and my chinese assistant teachers they are always the first to grab the crappy electronic dictionary with Thesaurs and choose the biggest word in the hope that it will make it better.......


There is no nice way to put this. I hope English isn't your first language- you made so many basic
mistakes in your English (even with spellcheck?!) that you should never be allowed to teach it to
anyone!

People who can't use their own language properly have no business teaching it to others.
Those are basic English mistakes.

I'm sure you did a fine job as a spoken teacher though- I just hope you never tried to teach
them written English!

That aside-



From those images... The image quality appear to be exactly the same. The non-streamed one is just zoomed out which makes it appear to be more crisp. Try zooming in and you'll have the exact same picture.

Translation-wise. Viz has a history of using passive tense in their sentence structure. I don't blame them as the target demographic was originally young boys.

Conclusion: Your "evidence" is purely subjective. Go away fanboy.



Your pictures of the subs bring up a great point- and that is that not all sub quality is equal.
There can be a huge quality gap with VIZ. Thanks to you I finally placed it- they DO use passive
structure way too much! Thank you for pointing that out Rice. I couldn't quite place it for years-
they do that in nearly everything they touch.



yes English is my first language, but i suffer from dyspraxia and dyslexia so my spelling is the best nor is my grammar But please tell me what 5 year old needs to know those subjects?. spell check???? i never used one as i cant be bothered its a post on the internet like im gona type all that in Microsoft word then paste it into the browser.

and as for the TESOL cetificate i got. It was from A uni and im qualified to teach written and oral English had be if i need to i can write correctly.
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what the?
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ouh yeah!!!!!!! awesom! *clicks the search bar and types bleach* *click episodes 166* [sorry we are trying to obtain worldwide licenses] wish im in americaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa damn get the license for indonesia now! i dont wanna change my country to watch bleach on crunchyroll!
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