Poll edited 6/18/10
Created by papagolfwhiskey
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Leader/Regime that was worst scourge on own people.
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Posted 6/17/10
Which Leader (or Regime) in history do you think was the worst scourge on his or own people?

My top three contenders are:

Adolf Hitler: Granted not all of the 10 million people fed into the Nazi death machine were German citizens ( No few Poles were so killed, and the regime was fond of stripping any number of "undesirables" of their citizenship before killing them). But in terms of brutal industrial efficiency and dedication Nazi Germany managed to stun the world.

Joseph Stalin: To be fair, he was much more willing to work them to death in the gulag archepeligo or simply starve entire populations, and his agents lacked the industrial efficiency of Nazi Germany but the estimated number of civilian internal casualties of Stalinist Russia runs between 3 and 60 million. With many of the estimates being over ten million, Stalin beats out even Hitler in terms of raw numbers.

Pol Pot: His goons had to do it the old fashioned way with clubs and farm implements and he came nowhere near the other two in terms of raw numbers, but in the end, his attempt to mimic an agrarian equivalent of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" ended up costing about a third of the population of Cambodia/Kampuchea.

so... who get's your vote and why?


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Posted 6/17/10 , edited 6/17/10
I will like to suggest the current Myanmar military regime. It seems you have a better grasp of history so maybe you can elaborate on this. My vote goes to Hitler though.

PS: Edited to explain why, he brought out the worst of the generation of Germans by which up to today they are still learning the lessons, 'the sins of their fathers', he came into power through the failure of Democracy, his scapegoating of the Jews and the misery he inflicted on, his influence on the Church and the Muslim world (Palestine). All of this because of his fear and envy of Jews. Where some historians believe originated because a Jewish doctor did not treat or fail to save his father.
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Posted 6/17/10

Northboundsnow wrote:

I will like to suggest the current Myanmar military regime. It seems you have a better grasp of history so maybe you can elaborate on this. My vote goes to Hitler though.


Sorry, most of what I know (a small flash of light in an inky pool of ignorance) about Burma revolves around Major-General Orde Charles Wingate's guerrilla operations against the Japanese in WWII.

Based entirely on the wikipedia article: In my opinion, Burma get's, at best, an "also ran". The sins and crimes attributed to it are common to police states. and the numbers don't remotely compare. Burma's population is 56 million and the hundreds of thousands of refugees and allegedly killed, combined barely add up to a fraction of our leaders. Bad as Burma is, our three top contenders seem to be worse.



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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10

Northboundsnow wrote:

Edited to explain why, he brought out the worst of the generation of Germans by which up to today they are still learning the lessons,


The only exception I'll make to this is the specification of Germans. The biggest problem I have with the demonization of Hitler's regime is our tendency to scapegoat Germans (or within Germany, the SS) and smugly decide that it "can't happen here"

I'm sorry it can.

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian" may not have actually been spoken by Gen. Custer's patron, General Sheridan, but there is plenty of historical evidence that it represented the attitude of a great many American soldiers and civilians alike at the time.

At the end of the 19th Century the French discovered a spy and traitor within their military. They convicted the wrong man and spent 8 years arguing about it in their courts and media before exonerating him. His most suspect trait? He was Jewish. If you can find contemporary publications of the time or descriptions of what the crowd said at Captain Dreyfus's 'Drumming out'*. You'll find plenty of exhortations to genocide.

Hitler was Times Magazine's 1936 "man of the year".

When Albert Speer tries to explain (some would say excuse) the ease with which Germans fell under Hitler's sway, one of the factors he points to is a lack of training in reasoning for oneself in the schools. History, Ethics and Debate took a distant third to the pragmatic technical training need to function in the workplace. Germans of that era were left with few tools with which to defend themselves against a smooth talker.

I've met my share of engineering students in my own country who'd fit Speer's description of himself in the 30's.

In the early thirties, the Canadian minister of immigration apparently thought his primary duty was preventing 'too many Jews" from entering Canada, when pressed for numbers he famously replied "None is too many"

Not that it's something that only happens to Jews. The oft quoted 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazi's I think is an injustice to the other 4 million that make up the complete 10 million.

We have Rawanda now. As well as the aforementioned Pol Pot.

er... uh...

anyway don't just blame the Germans.


(*Drumming Out: a military ceremony where a dishonourably discharged individual is publicly and ritually stripped of his insignia of rank, unit, and service, his sword broken, and all participants backs turned to him as he is marched away.)

Posted 6/18/10
I think Mao Zedong commited far worse on the leaders above. In fact Mao Zedong killed more of his countrymen to Stalin did. More than 50 million of his people died under his regime.
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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10

DrifterZ0 wrote:

I think Mao Zedong commited far worse on the leaders above. In fact Mao Zedong killed more of his countrymen to Stalin did. More than 50 million of his people died under his regime.


(( Thwaps self upside the head.)) I should have put him up there.
The exact numbers are debatable though do to a lack of records. Some estimates put Stalin up to 60 Million. Though in the years since the Iron Curtain has come down so have many of the estimates due to access to former soviet records.

And, of course, he had longer to work at it than Stalin

On the other hand, his regime get's extra points for the refinement of it's cruelty:

Sending the family a bill for the bullet(s) used to execute their loved one; now THAT is twisting the knife.

Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


DrifterZ0 wrote:

I think Mao Zedong commited far worse on the leaders above. In fact Mao Zedong killed more of his countrymen to Stalin did. More than 50 million of his people died under his regime.


(( Thwaps self upside the head.)) I should have put him up there.
The exact numbers are debatable though do to a lack of records. Some estimates put Stalin up to 60 Million. Though in the years since the Iron Curtain has come down so have many of the estimates due to access to former soviet records.

And, of course, he had longer to work at it than Stalin

On the other hand, his regime get's extra points for the refinement of it's cruelty:

Sending the family a bill for the bullet(s) used to execute their loved one; now THAT is twisting the knife.



I think Mao did more than that. Other than China, Mao even did worse things in Tibet. Determining the exact figures are really difficult. Some sources about Mao's atrocities indicate of his victims ranging 49 to 70 million plus. Numbers vary from sources I visited in the net.

Anyways I am posting on "Others' in the polls thread. It would be a vote for Mao Zedong.
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Posted 6/18/10
I think I should add him to the poll. (can you DO that, once it's started?) Next Question; does the Gang of Four and/or the current leadership count as the same regime?
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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10
The 1300's century Pope was the most evil person with power in history.
With more power than the kings, the pope used his authority to control everything and all who opposed him would have been murdered.
He also claim to be forgiven of sin one must pay the church, hence why the place was wealthy enough to be decorated in gold. The Pope's was responsible for starting most if not all the wars. from 1200's to the 2000's.


So I nominate the Pope's of all the ages combine to make the most evil leader/leaders in history. even to this day. Shunning safe sex / Condoms, and helping the spread of Aids.

The Popes also responsible for backing/controlling Adolf Hitler. (that's right the pope was there with Hitler, you know he was giving Hitler his barbaric ideals like killing Jews..)

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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10
Darkphoenix3450, I probably should have included "... of the modern age" or "non-religious"

While I concede many (but not all) of your arguments I do not want this thread hi-jacked by the theological combatants on this forum who cannot agree but cannot stop arguing. Please redirect any posts that might start such debates to one of the umpteenth other religious argument threads already saturating this board.
Posted 6/18/10

Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

The 1300's century Pope was the most evil person with power in history.
With more power than the kings, the pope used his authority to control everything and all who opposed him would have been murdered.
He also claim to be forgiven of sin one must pay the church, hence why the place was wealthy enough to be decorated in gold. The Pope's was responsible for starting most if not all the wars. from 1200's to the 2000's.


So I nominate the Pope's of all the ages combine to make the most evil leader/leaders in history. even to this day. Shunning safe sex / Condoms, and helping the spread of Aids.

The Popes also responsible for backing/controlling Adolf Hitler. (that's right the pope was there with Hitler, you know he was giving Hitler his barbaric ideals like killing Jews..)



I couldn't have put it better myself.
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Posted 6/18/10

Aztecnology wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

The 1300's century Pope was the most evil person with power in history.
With more power than the kings, the pope used his authority to control everything and all who opposed him would have been murdered.
He also claim to be forgiven of sin one must pay the church, hence why the place was wealthy enough to be decorated in gold. The Pope's was responsible for starting most if not all the wars. from 1200's to the 2000's.


So I nominate the Pope's of all the ages combine to make the most evil leader/leaders in history. even to this day. Shunning safe sex / Condoms, and helping the spread of Aids.

The Popes also responsible for backing/controlling Adolf Hitler. (that's right the pope was there with Hitler, you know he was giving Hitler his barbaric ideals like killing Jews..)



I couldn't have put it better myself.


First, Last and only warning. I don't want to report posts or close threads but I will if people keep bringing religion into this thread.

I have some reservations about the logic of the of above submission but I'm restraining myself from debating it. Take your religious fights to the other fifty threads that make up your battleground .. PLEASE.

Posted 6/18/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Aztecnology wrote:


Darkphoenix3450 wrote:

The 1300's century Pope was the most evil person with power in history.
With more power than the kings, the pope used his authority to control everything and all who opposed him would have been murdered.
He also claim to be forgiven of sin one must pay the church, hence why the place was wealthy enough to be decorated in gold. The Pope's was responsible for starting most if not all the wars. from 1200's to the 2000's.


So I nominate the Pope's of all the ages combine to make the most evil leader/leaders in history. even to this day. Shunning safe sex / Condoms, and helping the spread of Aids.

The Popes also responsible for backing/controlling Adolf Hitler. (that's right the pope was there with Hitler, you know he was giving Hitler his barbaric ideals like killing Jews..)



I couldn't have put it better myself.


First, Last and only warning. I don't want to report posts or close threads but I will if people keep bringing religion into this thread.

I have some reservations about the logic of the of above submission but I'm restraining myself from debating it. Take your religious fights to the other fifty threads that make up your battleground .. PLEASE.



You restrain yourself for reasons that eat at each other like a knot of serpents. I will not persist in blasting up your thread with arguments against people's adorable faiths, since it bothers you so much.

Ave Sathanas! Ne plus ultra!
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Posted 6/18/10
Thank you.
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Posted 6/18/10 , edited 6/18/10
'You do not think the leader known as Pope Pius XII was one of the Leader/Regime that was worst scourge on his own people? The Pope who financed the Nazi party using the Churches Gold. Also known to forage letters and documents to get what he wanted.'
or Pope Innocent III "Pope (1198-1216)" Who would have people murdered so he could obtain there property. Who was solely responsible for selling 100,000's of kids (his own peoples kids) into slavery? The holy wars? ext.
It has nothing to do with the religion I am talking about the two Popes as people them selves?

You can not deny that their evil leaders down to the core. (creating much hardship for there people.
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